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BabyBoyAndMyLass

Soul Source guide to record collecting.

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Been wanting to do this so here goes.

I'd like to create a thread pooling some of the vast amount of knowledge contained on site by the esteemed membership. I'd like it to be informative, in fact definitive, a guide for people who are embarking on the hobby/obsession.

I'd like it to contain info on identifying an Original 45, the resources used to find this info, the methods used to establish the identifying features of a rare record, obviously Soul will be a big feature. The research that goes into this once a record is in your 'wants' category, price research, resources relating to price/availability.

Repairs, cleaning and importantly maintaining the condition of your investment once acquired.

Assume that you're aiming posts at the un-initiated but enthusiastic to learn more. Not asking for trade secrets but general info on sourcing, verifying, buying and curating valuable/rare 45s please.

The thinking behind this is that we have here a vast amount of knowledge and experience in this field so would like to create a document that future enthusiasts can use to help them dip their toe in the waters.

Thanks folks, looking forward to this one because my own knowledge is very limited and being a member here has been very helpful with this but would like to gather info all in one handy place, again thanks!

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Posted (edited)

A good place to start ID'ing rare releases is maybe to list the 'tax scam' labels that only pressed up a few copies (or pressed up 500 / 1000 copies & then immediately junked the vast majority of them).

Some obvious tax scam labels were Guinness (Frank Dell, Roger Hatcher), Emkay (Hypnotics, Otis Williams), Tiger Lily, Tomorrow, TSG, etc.   ... BUT ... there must be quite a few more of them ... 

  

GuinnessLP.jpg

TSGlp.jpg

Edited by Roburt

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Dedwax.

Get yourself a good (magnifyer) eyeglass (with a backlight). Check the run-out's and matrix against good sources. Make notes of what you buy/have.

http://playlists.christmachine.com/cutting-vinyl/dead-wax-deadwax-list-full-length-continued-from-main-day-page/

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/deadwax-inscription-ids-needed.120633/

good luck

Ken

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Posted (edited)

A more comprehensive Monarch dating guide....remember not only Monarch used the Delta number system, other pressing companies such as Alco used it too.  Each plant has their own stamp but all will use the delta triangle followed by one of the numbers in the chart  

A5737D4B-FC68-47AF-816E-68818491D4DC.jpeg.ca9afa3747497ed639c518531e89afdd.jpeg

From discogs....

Monarch Stamp

L-264380-1340383315-6821.jpeg.jpg.ee0989057cccfc13d9ef40a1de4b7dcb.jpgL-264380-1442219968-5767.jpeg.jpg.a85d4f4fcb04895db68237c503d0ea90.jpg

 

Alco Stamp

L-415162-1510374783-8395.jpeg.jpg.6620a8c47c9a90c5f560709f66af3b79.jpgL-415162-1374831416-8721.jpeg.jpg.1f4e25b8d29c632a9e9c1fc9b726444a.jpg

Edited by chalky

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Posted (edited)

Back in the 80s when I used to hunt records fairly obsessively, finding out about the delta numbers was like a revelation. It's not that difficult really, you just need to have some awareness of when the first digit was used and when it went from 5 to 6 digits.

Edited by JoeSoap

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Don't do it 🤣

 

Seriously though - research, research, research (price guides, internet prices, websites listed above, soul source)...and don't listen to what anyone says about a tune, if you love it buy it (don't buy anything you don't love)...always keep a small pot available as wants always come up when you've spent up...set yourself a reasonable monthly limit (will vary for everyone)...and most of all, enjoy it - if you're not enjoying it you shouldn't be doing it...

 

ps it doesn't matter a bollocks if you DJ or not, and if you're only in it to DJ then I don't think collecting is for you

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If you want to be able to understand deadwax from other plants than Monarch you can use this forum thread:

https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/743281

Discogs is becoming an ever more informative site. And it's useful to look up represses and bootlegs. Just remember that the discogs term for a bootleg is "unofficial".

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😶Hi All - Well I have collected record since 1965 over the first few years I collected MOD/POP from 68 to 72 REGGAE was my bag with SOUL in 2nd place, got most of my records in SOHO & Brixton, In those days my info come from Blues & Soul Mag it was my bible, I tried to buy as many new releases as I could from Contempos, all though I did a bit of DJing, it was nothing compared to doing some spots with Billy Mac & Mick Smith this is when my Rare Soul Roots come from,

Now most of my tips on record collecting are well known today, However I will start by making my statement on the subject of NOC what's NOC well it stands for no origanal centre, As with most people who started collecting rare soul in the early7ts, you got most of your records from junk shops markets or shops selling discount records, so goes without saying to find a rare record in any condition was a find to brag about and to find a UK DEMO 45 was almost imposable, However in the last twenty years or so the new kids on the block seem to not value UK records with NOC as much as they should, this why issue without a centre will do until you find a better copy, but when it comes to DEMO's my veiw is most DEMO'S without a centre in was sent to a DJ at the time, now some DEMO's come in small numbers EMI typically made 50, to promote a record, most went to Radio Stations a few went to music journalists, those sent to DJ's were in the main had the centre knocked out so it could be played, So knowing this I have always treated a NOC DEMO as how it comes it was meant to be like this part of it's history, UK SOULL DEMOS are rare no matter how much you pay, the more you spend on a record does not & never did make a record rarer, the fact that every US 45 has the centre dinked (well not every 45) so why are collectors today always searching for the impossible find in having MINT 45s is mad 7 expensive, that's all for now and it my opinion. KTF

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Roburt said:

Everyone will know this, but for completeness on this thread ....

old 78's and acetates are great to collect, just don't play the original disc much at all (or you'll probably ruin them) ...

 

Much at all? Probably? It is a bit ambiguous your comment? I know of acetates that are 20/30 years old, played with frequency and still fine.  All depends how you look after them.

Edited by chalky

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Posted (edited)

Another format introduced back in the mid to late 60's that are fun to collect (good to frame up as wall hangings in a record room) ...

HIP-POCKET RECORDS ....   only cost 69c & usually discounted to 39c as the format never really caught on ...

HipPocketDiscMont.jpg

HipPocketArthrConley.jpg

HipPocketDisc13.jpg

HipPocketRecMont2.jpg

Edited by Roburt

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Posted (edited)

If a seller says 'very rare only a handful known to exist' you might think they mean less than 5 i.e. less than the number of fingers on one hand........  but they might mean how many a strong large handed person could balance on their hand i.e. in this style.... (possibly even a lot more than this pile)

 Image result for piles of vinyl records

Edited by bbrich
mistyped

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On 31/07/2018 at 06:16, dthedrug said:

when it comes to DEMO's my veiw is most DEMO'S without a centre in was sent to a DJ at the time, now some DEMO's come in small numbers EMI typically made 50, to promote a record, most went to Radio Stations a few went to music journalists, those sent to DJ's were in the main had the centre knocked out

I have marvin gaye 60's demos, stateside and tmg - I have been told they would have made about 500 demos for an artist like that - do you think it could have been a lot less? if so very interesting. Mine are M, M- or EX+ and all have the centre, one has 'radio station copy' stamped on it. 

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On ‎09‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 14:08, bbrich said:

I have marvin gaye 60's demos, stateside and tmg - I have been told they would have made about 500 demos for an artist like that - do you think it could have been a lot less? if so very interesting. Mine are M, M- or EX+ and all have the centre, one has 'radio station copy' stamped on it. 

Hi your info is wrong, 500 Stateside Motown DEMO's well if you believe that, sit down and think about it? here's a question for you & anybody who reads this, perhaps the biggest Stateside/Motown 45s was "Baby Love" the Supremes' have you got a demo, when was the last time you see it for sale? have you ever seen a copy when you are out & about? at a record fair maybe? if the answer to this is yes well you would be a collector just like me!, but if the answer is no and I have a copy, where are the other 499? once you track them down you can look for a demo of "my guy" Mary Wells, ….I'm sure you get my gist? KTF😃

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Well i'm not surprised as so far no one has ever given me any sort of definitive answer as to how how many stateside or tmg demos were put out. Which in itself is quite surprising as i would have thought there would have been a company policy on how many to press up, maybe determined by popularity of artist. Then to me the interesting question is how many that were pressed still exist today, especially those in m or m- condition? makes me think that such stateside/tmg demos are under valued compared to some so called rare us pressed records.

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On the subject of demos don't know if this adds anything to the pot or will even be of interest, in the early seventies I dated for alas too short a time  lass who's older brother was a Dj at the Nevada in Bolton. She knew I collected Soul records and on my one and only visit to her house she let me into the caravan her brother used in the garden, can't remember why the caravan was there but that's by the by, the floor of said caravan was littered with demos of all genre's of music, literally hundreds of records. She told me to help myself, not having dated her for too long I showed admirable restraint thinking I would get a second chance of picking some stuff. I came away with several JayBoy Demos, a few Motown green and whites and some deep soul stuff by the likes of Dee Dee Warwicke and Irma Thomas on Atco and Atlantic respectively. From memory the Nevada was a general dance hall and skating rink so whoever sent out the demos wasn't concerned with sending out just the potential pop hits of the day as I think it very doubtful either Dee Dee or Irma would have got played there.

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On 11/11/2018 at 12:15, Twoshoes said:

On the subject of demos don't know if this adds anything to the pot or will even be of interest, in the early seventies I dated for alas too short a time  lass who's older brother was a Dj at the Nevada in Bolton. She knew I collected Soul records and on my one and only visit to her house she let me into the caravan her brother used in the garden, can't remember why the caravan was there but that's by the by, the floor of said caravan was littered with demos of all genre's of music, literally hundreds of records. She told me to help myself, not having dated her for too long I showed admirable restraint thinking I would get a second chance of picking some stuff. I came away with several JayBoy Demos, a few Motown green and whites and some deep soul stuff by the likes of Dee Dee Warwicke and Irma Thomas on Atco and Atlantic respectively. From memory the Nevada was a general dance hall and skating rink so whoever sent out the demos wasn't concerned with sending out just the potential pop hits of the day as I think it very doubtful either Dee Dee or Irma would have got played there.

I knew/know ( i haven't seen him for a while) a guy who was collecting back in the 60s. He had the full set of all UK Tamla releases on demo I'm not sure when his cut off was but he had collected every 60s Tamla inc all pre-TM label releases on demo. He sold most of it off over the years. Obviously  I was impressed but he made a point that it was somewhat easier than what it sounded. He worked as  a semi-pro (I think ) dj and got sent lots of Tamla demos (not all of them obviously) . He said that  if regular djing at reasonable club you'd get sent lots of stuff free.  

I asked what the hardest one was - the last to finish the full run. He thought it was Sweet Thing. 

Edited by maslar

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In my opinion the best way to learn about record collecting is to collect an artist (preferably one you like/admire). Your favourite artist might be a good start. Through starting off obtaining all the standard issues you'll learn about standard issues, variations, originals, reissues, demos, promos, foreign releases, picture sleeves, acetates demos etc etc. 

 

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My second posting here opens with a question and answer. Give me one of the many good reasons as to why I have a good collection? How about because I have always taken chances when faced with a pile of titles in front of me that I don't already know, that might turn out to be a potential bargain if the price is right. My favourite example was at a car boot, Hook Road, Epsom, 9 June 1996. I'd heard through a car boot record dealer friend, about a couple who he'd seen at other car boots in previous weeks including Wimbledon, who had several boxes of Japanese LP's that he thought might interest me. He hadn't bought any of them himself as he had no idea what style they were and they weren't priced low enough for him to want to take a chance. I already owned in the region of 100+ Japanese LP's, mostly jazz fusion by Japanese artists.

By pure luck the couple turned up at Epsom that day. They were English. I can't recall how they'd come by the records but they too had no idea what they were and were getting tired of carting them around by now, every weekend with minimal punter interest. Even before I started looking through the records, almost all which were LP's but for a few 12", I was seriously excited. However, no matter how interesting the sleeves appeared, and if you've ever looked at quantities of Jap LP's you cannot fail to notice the quality of the artwork, the photography, and the attention to detail in the credits, there wasn't a single LP I already knew, and worse still, bar a few artists, I had never heard of any of the others, all Japanese. There were about 150 records in total. They looked like pop LP's, though thankfully from 1980 to 1984, and most of the artists were female, but of the Jap pop LP's I already had in my collection, all had at least one good soul or boogie track and the synths and bass playing were the overwhelming features.

I'd already made up my mind as long as they were cheap I would have to buy the lot of them, I couldn't walk away from this potential goldmine of Japanese boogie even if it turned out there were only a handful worth keeping. It was only at the end did a price get mentioned, I think they said just give us £30 (it was no more than that as I recall) as we're fed up of carrying them around. What a potential result. Even if they'd said 50p each I'd have taken the lot as I perceived the risk of not doing so to be too high. 

So I got them home and the challenge begun. I knew there would be no middle ground here and that's how it proved. Sadly the majority were awful pop but I checked absolutely every track on every LP, twice, as those I dismissed first time round I went back to a few days later. I am relentless, no matter how poor the first bunch of tracks on an LP may be, I listen to the lot. In the end I kept about 20 items which included some that contained truly outstanding tracks, some of which are below, strictly with the 80's boogie collector in mind. All the tracks are sung in Japanese, musicianship is mind blowing.

The motto of this posting is that you will only get out what you're prepared to put in with this pastime. Buy with an attitude of not being prepared to take chances, and you'll end up with the collection that reflects such, one that is likely to be just average. What made this example so rewarding was the fact I knew next to nothing about what I was buying but it paid off. I am unlikely to have ever experienced these tracks otherwise.

 

Stunning artwork, one of my favourite sleeves. It's the first track only.

 

 

Edited by Martin S

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