Dispute here: afficianados of Detroit, its in your court. Its been said Willie Mitchell plays this sax break. He was definitely in Detroit at the time. The belief is he plays trumpet on it...its said he produced and arranged the session at GW....does anyone believe that to be correct as well?

This question though, revolves around WHO plays sax.

To me, without any shred of a doubt, its Terry's signature, instantly recognizable the world over....tell me im wrong?

I always thought it was Mike ... so when I read it was Willie Mitchell that confused me ... never heard Willie play sax like that .. my gut, and my big ears, always said Mike

9 minutes ago, Andy Rix said:

I always thought it was Mike ... so when I read it was Willie Mitchell that confused me ... never heard Willie play sax like that .. my gut, and my big ears, always said Mike

Thanks for responding Andy, ive posted this as it stems from a conversation been having this evening on the Funks site, where i posted the appreciations track. Rob Moss had put it up on his site initially, according to the difference of opinion on my post, Dave Moore said he spoke to Terry about the track....but so did Rob!, conflicting answers there too....

I'm adamant its Terry....all and sundry wanted to jump on the Motown bandwagon, artists, producers, arrangers hence, the myriad of labels and sound-a-likes, and plenty of out-of-towners came to the D as well...i mean,Mitchell...reponsible for Hi, discovered Al Green,  producer/arranger who had his own style....nah....thats Terry, all day long...when youve listened to Motown 64-66, his moniker is on everything, and not just at Motown.

I don't belong to the group so haven't seen the discussion.. if it's not Mike it's the best imitation ever 

18 minutes ago, Andy Rix said:

I don't belong to the group so haven't seen the discussion.. if it's not Mike it's the best imitation ever 

Deffo agree with that Andy. 

Mark Windle researched this group and 45 for his book.  The info he gleaned from first hand sources puts Willie in the frame.  In a separate strand, when I asked MT about the 45 I was very surprised that he was quite adamant that it wasn't him.  I had also assumed it was him, it certainly sounds like him and at the time I thought Mike may just have forgotten about the session.  When Mark's book came out that got me thinking. I guess the jury is still out. As we know the artists themselves can sometimes confuse the actual facts, especially when their catalogue of work is so vast and years before. 

Regards,

Dave      

37 minutes ago, Dave Moore said:

Mark Windle researched this group and 45 for his book.  The info he gleaned from first hand sources puts Willie in the frame.  In a separate strand, when I asked MT about the 45 I was very surprised that he was quite adamant that it wasn't him.  I had also assumed it was him, it certainly sounds like him and at the time I thought Mike may just have forgotten about the session.  When Mark's book came out that got me thinking. I guess the jury is still out. As we know the artists themselves can sometimes confuse the actual facts, especially when their catalogue of work is so vast and years before. 

Regards,

Dave      

Thanks for the reply Dave, yourself and the likes of others have been immersed in research moreso, than the vast majority of us who learn as we go along....i'd ascribe to the notion that musicians, or whoever, get confused with time.....its so long ago and they were in demand every day, if they werent the type to keep a logbook/diary of their bookings then its easy to forgive them, forgetting what they did, with who, where and when.

I honestly can't see that being Willie Mitchell, replicating a Terry trademark?, deffo confusion on Mike's part i'd say....yes, Mitchell was in Detroit then....there's photographic verification of that too, at who's behest is unknown?

But thats my opinion and it cant be proved, neither can the theory its Mitchell either.

From a long de-FUNK-ed web site: lots of possibilities for a bit of 'moonlighting'

THE MOTOWN MUSICIANS

1959 ~ 1962

Saxophones- Hank Crosby, Andrew "Mike" Toney, Norris Patterson, Thomas "Beans" Bowles, Teddy Buckner, Ronnie Wakefield, Lefty Edwards, Eli Fontaine, Ernie Rodgers

 

1963 ~ 1967

Saxophone - Hank Crosby, Andrew "Mike" Terry, Thomas Beans" Bowles, Kasuka Malia, Teddy Buckner, Lefty Edwards, Eugene BeeBee" Moore, William "Wild Bill" Moore, Angelo Carlisi, Ernie Rodgers, Dan Turner, Bernie Peacock, Larry Nozero

 

1968 ~ 1972

Saxophones - Hank Crosby, Kasuka Mafia,Teddy Buckner, Lefty Edwards, Bernie Peacock, Thomas "Beans" Bowles, Eugene "BeeBee" Mooore, William "Wild Bill" Moore, Angelo Carlisi, Ernie Rodgers, Dan Turner, Eli Fontaine, Larry Nozero, Lanny Austin

 

 

It's Mike Terry.

5 hours ago, Simon T said:

From a long de-FUNK-ed web site: lots of possibilities for a bit of 'moonlighting'

THE MOTOWN MUSICIANS

1959 ~ 1962

Saxophones- Hank Crosby, Andrew "Mike" Toney, Norris Patterson, Thomas "Beans" Bowles, Teddy Buckner, Ronnie Wakefield, Lefty Edwards, Eli Fontaine, Ernie Rodgers

 

1963 ~ 1967

Saxophone - Hank Crosby, Andrew "Mike" Terry, Thomas Beans" Bowles, Kasuka Malia, Teddy Buckner, Lefty Edwards, Eugene BeeBee" Moore, William "Wild Bill" Moore, Angelo Carlisi, Ernie Rodgers, Dan Turner, Bernie Peacock, Larry Nozero

 

1968 ~ 1972

Saxophones - Hank Crosby, Kasuka Mafia,Teddy Buckner, Lefty Edwards, Bernie Peacock, Thomas "Beans" Bowles, Eugene "BeeBee" Mooore, William "Wild Bill" Moore, Angelo Carlisi, Ernie Rodgers, Dan Turner, Eli Fontaine, Larry Nozero, Lanny Austin

 

 

Plus, all the usual suspects, Simon...they in particular as good money seemed to be offered outside of what Motown were paying...Ed Wingate for one...if they were alive today, theyd be earning mega bucks for their services ( prime or not )

Was Hank "Cosby" or "Crosby" his actual name.  From the scores(maybe hundreds?) of record credits I've seen for him over the years, it was spelled much, much more as "Cosby".  I always thought the "Crosby" spelling was a misprint.

2 minutes ago, Robbk said:

Was Hank "Cosby" or "Crosby" his actual name.  From the scores(maybe hundreds?) of record credits I've seen for him over the years, it was spelled much, much more as "Cosby".  I always thought the "Crosby" spelling was a misprint.

Cosby, his actual first name is Henry

14 minutes ago, Agentsmith said:

Cosby, his actual first name is Henry

That's what it had to be.  And I've seen many credits listed as Henry, rather than "Hank".

Didn't he play sax on Margaret Little - Love Finds a Away?

Edited February 29, 20241 yr by Simon T

23 minutes ago, Simon T said:

Didn't he play sax on Margaret Little - Love Finds a Away?

Yes, he did. Not the Andantes on backing though. Andy Rix related the full story about Margaret and this record, on here a while back, including an update...fascinating story.

5 minutes ago, Agentsmith said:

Yes, he did. Not the Andantes on backing though. Andy Rix related the full story about Margaret and this record, on here a while back, including an update...fascinating story.

Not a record I'd be advertising on my CV ...

It's a pity he didn't put down his instrument and pick up a microphone , He might have made a better vocalist than Maggie ...  

Harsh .. she knew she wasn't the best singer 

A

13 minutes ago, Andy Rix said:

Harsh .. she knew she wasn't the best singer 

A

You couldn't have put it better Andy , the perfect word.

 

Thank you ... Vocally Pat Lewis or Betty Winston would have done better but she knew that .. she did her best and was very humble about it 

On 28/02/2024 at 11:34, Agentsmith said:

Dispute here: afficianados of Detroit, its in your court. Its been said Willie Mitchell plays this sax break. He was definitely in Detroit at the time. The belief is he plays trumpet on it...its said he produced and arranged the session at GW....does anyone believe that to be correct as well?

This question though, revolves around WHO plays sax.

To me, without any shred of a doubt, its Terry's signature, instantly recognizable the world over....tell me im wrong?

I can believe the sax player on this recording is someone other than Mike Terry.  It sounds a bit like him, but is rougher than his usual.  It just doesn't sound nearly as good as what I remember by him.  If I see actual documentation stating it IS him, I'll believe it, but recognise that this wasn't his best performance by far.

Edited March 2, 20241 yr by Robbk

Mike gave me a list of records he played on. That one is not on the list. Dave Moore got it from Mike himself. Robb K has his doubts.

However, the little experience I have in interviewing people showed me that they cannot remember everything that happened in 50-60 years ago.

 

 

9 hours ago, David Meikle said:

Mike gave me a list of records he played on. That one is not on the list. Dave Moore got it from Mike himself. Robb K has his doubts.

However, the little experience I have in interviewing people showed me that they cannot remember everything that happened in 50-60 years ago.

 

 

That's been my experience too, David; and I've also been surprised to have fans show me scenes in stories I wrote and drew 45-50 years ago that I had forgotten about, until shown them.  If you've worked on hundreds of productions half a century to 40 years ago, it's difficult to remember EVERY one, at the drop of a hat, without being in context.

But, the bari sax solo on The Appreciations' cut doesn't sound "warm" enough to be Mike, it sounds "flat".  Actually, I don't like anything about this recording's production, for a 60s Detroit Soul record, including  the songwriting, arrangement, and the musicians' performances.  They definitely don't sound like The Funk Brothers and other Motown musicians who played on most of Golden World's, Correc-Tone's, Thelma's, Solid Hitbound's, plus other better quality "off-Motown" Detroit musicians.  Also, by this late in the '60s, Mike didn't just sign on to a recording project as a sax player, without being the arranger (and a lot of the time, the producer).  This sounds NOTHING like a mike Terry arrangement.  The melody and direction of the song is too "muddy" a mix, and not at all crisp and with good separation like his normal productions.  Until shown proof to the contrary, I really think he wasn't involved in this one.

 

Edited March 2, 20241 yr by Robbk

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

....But, the bari sax solo on The Appreciations' cut doesn't sound "warm" enough to be Mike, it sounds "flat".  Actually, I don't like anything about this recording's production, for a 60s Detroit Soul record, including  the songwriting, arrangement, and the musicians' performances.  They definitely don't sound like The Funk Brothers and other Motown musicians who played on most of Golden World's, Correc-Tone's, Thelma's, Solid Hitbound's, plus other better quality "off-Motown" Detroit musicians.  Also, by this late in the '60s, Mike didn't just sign on to a recording project as a sax player, without being the arranger (and a lot of the time, the producer).  This sounds NOTHING like a mike Terry arrangement.  The melody and direction of the song is to "muddy" a mix, and not at all crisp and with good separation like his normal productions.  Until shown proof to the contrary,, I really think he wasn't involved in this one.

Although I love the record exactly for those reasons ; for it's brute, raw, un-precise and vigorous rendition so nothing clean, swift and tight like the Funk Brothers were or even like both their following releases on Sport.

Like you to my ears it never sounded like Mike on this Aware baritone sax break. Nor as you precisely point out where at this stage in his career Mike was not only involved in such projects beyond his sole sax blow.

8 hours ago, David Meikle said:

Mike gave me a list of records he played on. That one is not on the list. Dave Moore got it from Mike himself. Robb K has his doubts.

However, the little experience I have in interviewing people showed me that they cannot remember everything that happened in 50-60 years ago.

Evidently time and old age play it's part but that 'list' is another lead going against that theory until a better argument comes along to counter these elements and different opinions on the matter if it were to be.

Edited March 2, 20241 yr by Tlscapital

8 hours ago, David Meikle said:

Mike gave me a list of records he played on. That one is not on the list. Dave Moore got it from Mike himself. Robb K has his doubts.

However, the little experience I have in interviewing people showed me that they cannot remember everything that happened in 50-60 years ago.

 

 

That's certainly true, and applies to anyone!, its what you hear....to me, theres no question of deciphering who it is....it sounds for all the world like Mike, because nobody had a signature like that.....but we'll never truly know so, as already commented here, the jury is out.

1 hour ago, Agentsmith said:

That's certainly true, and applies to anyone!, its what you hear....to me, theres no question of deciphering who it is....it sounds for all the world like Mike, because nobody had a signature like that.....but we'll never truly know so, as already commented here, the jury is out.

Yes, the notes and entire musical phrase are typical of a Mike Terry intro, which reminds me of a Supremes' song from late 1964 or early '65 (I can't remember which).  But, to me, it sounds like IF it was Mike, he was suffering from the flu, or it was another sax player trying his best to imitate Mike.  And the acoustics don't sound to me like this was recorded at Golden World.  The sax doesn't sound to me like Willie Mitchell, either. Could it have been Mitchell, trying hard to use Terry's style because he was recording in a Detroit studio for a Detroit group?  

Edited March 2, 20241 yr by Robbk

20 minutes ago, Robbk said:

Yes, the notes and entire musical phrase are typical of a Mike Terry intro, which reminds me of a Supremes' song from late 1964 or early '65 (I can't remember which).  But, to me, it sounds like IF it was Mike, he was suffering from the flu, or it was another sax player trying his best to imitate Mike.  And the acoustics don't sound to me like this was recorded at Golden World.  The sax doesn't sound to me like Willie Mitchell, either. Could it have been Mitchell, trying hard to use Terry's style because he was recording in a Detroit studio for a Detroit group?  

Hi Robb,The Appreciations were from Charlotte not Detroit.

27 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Hi Robb,The Appreciations were from Charlotte not Detroit.

Thanks for informing me of that.  And I've read that Aware Records was located in Charlotte, NC.  So why do people think this song was recorded at Golden World, in Detroit?  It certainly doesn't sound like Golden World to me.  And I don't hear any distinctive Detroit musicians playing on it (other than the Mike Terry emulator).  Maybe it was Willie Mitchell in Charlotte, trying to sound like Terry (because The Appreciations had previously recorded in Detroit, for Sport)?   

Edited March 2, 20241 yr by Robbk

31 minutes ago, Robbk said:

Thanks for informing me of that.  And I've read that Aware Records was located in Charlotte, NC.  So why do people think this song was recorded at Golden World, in Detroit?  It certainly doesn't sound like Golden World to me.  And I don't hear any distinctive Detroit musicians playing on it (other than the Mike Terry emulator).  Maybe it was Willie Mitchell in Charlotte, trying to sound like Terry (because The Appreciations had previously recorded in Detroit, for Sport)?   

According to the article called Its better to cry,The Appreciations were taken to Detroit by Willie Mitchell and the whole session was supervised by him and also that he was the sax player.

3 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

According to the article called Its better to cry,The Appreciations were taken to Detroit by Willie Mitchell and the whole session was supervised by him and also that he was the sax player.

Exactly. Well the baritone sax break by Willie immitating Mike  is a possibility at least... This while Willie was catching on the Detroit Sound in Detroit. As he was involved with this group following session as producer.

2 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Exactly. Well the baritone sax break by Willie immitating Mike  is a possibility at least... This while Willie was catching on the Detroit Sound in Detroit. As he was involved with this group following session as producer.

This was the follow up recording after Aware,Its better to cry was recorded in Charlotte under the supervision of Moses Dillard,it is thought that he plays guitar on it and that The Tempest were the backing musicians.

9 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Exactly. Well the baritone sax break by Willie immitating Mike  is a possibility at least... This while Willie was catching on the Detroit Sound in Detroit. As he was involved with this group following session as producer.

I have just been reading the article its better to cry once more and the instrumentation to the flip side of this which is she never really loved me was done in Memphis,so who is playing the baritone sax on that?Same guy who is playing on I can't hide it.?

7 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

I have just been reading the article its better to cry once more and the instrumentation to the flip side of this which is she never really loved me was done in Memphis,so who is playing the baritone sax on that?Same guy who is playing on I can't hide it.?

"I hear NO Bari sax on it's Better To Cry".  but I can say that the recording sounds nothing like Detroit, bearing out the report that it was Memphis, and there are no Detroit names on the record.  I always suspected that it wasn't recorded in Detroit.

5 minutes ago, Robbk said:

"I hear NO Bari sax on it's Better To Cry".  but I can say that the recording sounds nothing like Detroit, bearing out the report that it was Memphis, and there are no Detroit names on the record.  I always suspected that it wasn't recorded in Detroit.

Rob i was not talking about its better to cry,i was talking about she never really loved me which is the flip side of There's a place in my heart Sport 108.

13 minutes ago, Robbk said:

"I hear NO Bari sax on it's Better To Cry".  but I can say that the recording sounds nothing like Detroit, bearing out the report that it was Memphis, and there are no Detroit names on the record.  I always suspected that it wasn't recorded in Detroit.

The baritone sax on 'she never loved me' (not on 'it's better to cry' true !) is 'pumping' groin-groin in the backing track following the drum roll tempo. The whole musical arrangement does sound Detroit like. At least it's a wannabe just as Willie Mitchell wanted it to be.

Edited March 2, 20241 yr by Tlscapital

4 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Rob i was not talking about its better to cry,i was talking about she never really loved me which is the flip side of There's a place in my heart Sport 108.

I have that record and bought it new, also Sport 111.  I always assumed this one was recorded in Detroit.  I hear some Detroit musicians on it.  The acoustics sound a lot like Sidra/TerraShirma Studio as opposed to Golden World.  I guess this record represented the Appreciations coming to Detroit and recording there.  I See that Willie Mitchell was credited as producer.  But, I'm not convinced The Aware record was recorded in Detroit.  The bari sax on Sport 108 sounds like mike Terry's style, and could well be him.  But it's too sparse, and subdued in the background, to tell for sure.  But I'd still bet that Mike Terry arranged it, and played the sax on it, too.  This is the reason why I originally thought that The Appreciations were a Detroit group.  I also have the Gaines-Leeper penned Appreciations' record on Jubilee.  I'm surprised I didn't connect it with The Sport group.  And I never liked the Aware cuts, and thought they were a different "Southern" group.  

8 hours ago, Robbk said:

I have that record and bought it new, also Sport 111.  I always assumed this one was recorded in Detroit.  I hear some Detroit musicians on it.  The acoustics sound a lot like Sidra/TerraShirma Studio as opposed to Golden World.  I guess this record represented the Appreciations coming to Detroit and recording there.  I See that Willie Mitchell was credited as producer.  But, I'm not convinced The Aware record was recorded in Detroit.  The bari sax on Sport 108 sounds like mike Terry's style, and could well be him.  But it's too sparse, and subdued in the background, to tell for sure.  But I'd still bet that Mike Terry arranged it, and played the sax on it, too.  This is the reason why I originally thought that The Appreciations were a Detroit group.  I also have the Gaines-Leeper penned Appreciations' record on Jubilee.  I'm surprised I didn't connect it with The Sport group.  And I never liked the Aware cuts, and thought they were a different "Southern" group.  

The Jubilee sides are both Hattie Leeper’s Chattlee publishing like most of the other Appreciations sides. The ‘It’s Better To Cry’ 45 sides are New York production teams - Phil Medley producing one and publishing both. Blake and Nieves were his NYC writers 

Edited March 3, 20241 yr by Ady Croasdell

There’s a demo of ‘I Can’t Hide It’ in Dave Hamilton’s tapes

3 hours ago, Ady Croasdell said:

There’s a demo of ‘I Can’t Hide It’ in Dave Hamilton’s tapes

In probability, that varifies it as a Detroit recording then Ady, and at his studios?

3 hours ago, Agentsmith said:

In probability, that varifies it as a Detroit recording then Ady, and at his studios?

It verifies that the demo was made in DH studios but where is the master tape that gave us the 45?

Ady will be able to tell us if both sound identical. Plus, what was DH studios on Hamilton like for sound recognition? The sound on DH cd’s is excellent IMO.

Finally, why is Chattlee Productions printed on “I Can’t Hide It” if the final recording was done at Dave’s place? 

Sorry, I’m out my depth on this subject, but find this intriguing.

Edited March 3, 20241 yr by David Meikle
IMO added plus others

5 hours ago, Agentsmith said:

In probability, that varifies it as a Detroit recording then Ady, and at his studios?

Not definitely, Dave worked with people from around the country on occasion. It may just be a demo he was sent, though I have a feeling it was with some others, I’ll check on Monday. It may have bee ln his studio but unlikely as it was his small home studio by then I think 

1 hour ago, David Meikle said:

It verifies that the demo was made in DH studios but where is the master tape that gave us the 45?

Ady will be able to tell us if both sound identical. Plus, what was DH studios on Hamilton like for sound recognition? The sound on DH cd’s is excellent IMO.

Finally, why is Chattlee Productions printed on “I Can’t Hide It” if the final recording was done at Dave’s place? 

Sorry, I’m out my depth on this subject, but find this intriguing.

The demo may have been sent to Dave, I’ll check the tape box for more info. I doubt the final recording was done at Dave’s. Maybe Hattie Leeper brought them up to Detroit for the sound. As a DJ she would probably have connections there 

Another very minor lead. Jack Ashford gave me a “like” on Facebook last week for an advert featuring Willie Mitchell’s “On Top” album. As Jack worked with Mike perhaps he could help. Who knows Jack on here? LOL.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 20241 yr by David Meikle

1 hour ago, David Meikle said:

Another very minor lead. Jack Ashford gave me a “like” on Facebook last week for an advert featuring Willie Mitchell’s “On Top” album. As Jack worked with Mike perhaps he could help. Who knows Jack on here? LOL.

 

 

 

 

I’m friends with Jack on there.  I’ve asked him a few questions over time, last one last week but he rarely can remember anything. 

Thanks anyway Chalky.

12 hours ago, David Meikle said:

It verifies that the demo was made in DH studios but where is the master tape that gave us the 45?

Ady will be able to tell us if both sound identical. Plus, what was DH studios on Hamilton like for sound recognition? The sound on DH cd’s is excellent IMO.

Finally, why is Chattlee Productions printed on “I Can’t Hide It” if the final recording was done at Dave’s place? 

Sorry, I’m out my depth on this subject, but find this intriguing.

Chattlee Productions could get producer credits rights, just because The Appreciations were their artists, and, by agreement in the artists' contract, or deal with the studio producer, they get to be called executive producers regardless of whether they run the recording session, or farm it out to someone else.  It's certainly not a guarantee that they handled all the production "on the ground".  That's why we often saw credits for Berry Gordy as producer, when Smokey Robinson ran the session.

I rather think the demo was made for, and left with, Dave Hamilton, as samples, because Mitchell was looking for a Detroit producer to run his upcoming Detroit Appreciations' recording sessions.

 

Thanks Robb

Money changing hands in the making of a recording has always intrigued me.

Can you breakdown for me who gets paid - from lyrics being written down, to a record going on sale in the shops. Probably a big story but I’d love to know.

For example what happens after someone scribbles down a few lyrics in a bar/pub one night. No money has been incurred in the making of a record at this point.

What is next in the process and who gets paid?

I’ve never quite understood why, for example, some “weak” lyrics like in case of the Beatles “She Loves You” can make the lyric writer lots of money over many (70?) years.

And why would Mike Terry (for example) require a producer when he has all the skills to write charts, add the “sweeteners” etc.

Bobby Eli told me once that (he thought) the arranger was the most important person on a recording.

Yet he gets a fraction of the income that (in the above example) the “crass” lyric writer got.

Hope you can help.

David

 

 

 

 

33 minutes ago, David Meikle said:

Thanks Robb

Money changing hands in the making of a recording has always intrigued me.

Can you breakdown for me who gets paid - from lyrics being written down, to a record going on sale in the shops. Probably a big story but I’d love to know.

For example what happens after someone scribbles down a few lyrics in a bar/pub one night. No money has been incurred in the making of a record at this point.

What is next in the process and who gets paid?

I’ve never quite understood why, for example, some “weak” lyrics like in case of the Beatles “She Loves You” can make the lyric writer lots of money over many (70?) years.

And why would Mike Terry (for example) require a producer when he has all the skills to write charts, add the “sweeteners” etc.

Bobby Eli told me once that (he thought) the arranger was the most important person on a recording.

Yet he gets a fraction of the income that (in the above example) the “crass” lyric writer got.

Hope you can help.

David

 

 

 

 

When you mention the importance of the arranger,Paul Riser at motown is a perfect example.

Interesting reading and again some excellent information.

On 04/03/2024 at 09:31, David Meikle said:

Thanks Robb

Money changing hands in the making of a recording has always intrigued me.

(1) Can you breakdown for me who gets paid ?- from lyrics being written down, to a record going on sale in the shops. PROBABLY A BIG STORY but I’d love to know.

For example what happens after someone scribbles down a few lyrics in a bar/pub one night. No money has been incurred in the making of a record at this point.

What is next in the process and who gets paid?

I’ve never quite understood why, for example, some “weak” lyrics like in case of the Beatles “She Loves You” can make the lyric writer lots of money over many (70?) years.

(2) And why would Mike Terry (for example) require a producer when he has all the skills to write charts, add the “sweeteners” etc.

(3) Bobby Eli told me once that (he thought) the arranger was the most important person on a recording.

Yet he gets a fraction of the income that (in the above example) the “crass” lyric writer got.

Hope you can help.

David

 

 

 

 

David,

(1) The response to what you request from me would be at least a 10-12 page essay or treatise on how all contributors to a record being produced, marketed, and sold, at least a bit, locally had its sales revenue divided, worthy of being a well-respected "Webisode" on SoulfulDetroit.com (such as Graham's).  The reason for that is the very reason you've asked for it, which came from the "guess scenario" I brought up. 

It's because there were several different ways the writers, singers, musicians, artist agents, artist managers, financiers( for recording, record pressing & record distribution costs & fees), recording companies, recording technicians, record producers, go-between men (project facilitators (who brought key functional parties together)), record marketers, record distributors in different combinations, leading to a different way the record's sales revenues were divided up.  All those variables then have to have the explanation of adding in the typical %s paid to arrangers, artist managers, etc.

I don't have time right now to compose and write such a piece, and organise it coherently to do justice to your request (providing actual examples of the various combinations of who did what and who all got cuts of the pie), to my satisfaction that I'd be happy to have my name attached.  I'll try to come up with something more condensed and basic (maybe a few pages), as soon as I get the time.  A lot of thinking is involved in addition to the writing.  I'm a very slow typist, too.

(2) That was an excellent point I made in an earlier post on this thread.  Terry had left Motown several years before, specifically because he was capable of handling ALL those functions and could get paid for them, so WHY would he just settle for playing sax on an Appreciations record, or playing sax and just arranging it?  My statement was that he very likely would have wanted to produce it, as well (whether or not a so-called "executive producer" facilitated the project (e.g. got the necessary participating entities together).

(3) Bobby was correct in my book.  The arrangement of the music is much more important to me than even the quality of the singing, or the composition of the tune or the quality of the singer(s) performance on the recording.  That is why Motown became so successful.  Just think of how a weak-voiced 1940s-style MOR singer like Margaret Whiting had a NS hit; or why the weak-voiced Messengers' version of "California Soul" sounds even better than the much higher-quality vocal version by Marvin & Tammy, because The Messengers' version got the A-side (Hit treatment), while M&T's got a weaker arrangement and mix worthy of a toss-in LP cut, or why Tommy Good's "Baby I Miss You" sounds so much better than any of his other Motown cuts (because of its fantastic arrangement).

I'll try to put something up here in a few days.

 

 

Edited March 5, 20241 yr by Robbk

Rather than trying to distill the long essay down to some basic points, I've decided to give you a specific example of the type of explanation of one of the possible participation scenarios I might have used in my answer to your question. Here is a general description of Johnny Terry's projects, in which he acted as a Middle Man:

Some of you Detroit Soul fans might know his name from producer credits on Soul records recorded in Detroit, but released on New York record labels, and wondered how that came about.  Working out of New York in the early to later mid 1960s, singing and recording with The Drifters, he knew a lot of people in that city's music industry (musicians, record label owners, and songwriters).  Apparently, he had connections in Detroit, as well.  I don't know if he was a cousin of Andrew (Mike ) Terry, as Winford (Johnny) was raised in Washington, D.C.  But Mike arranged a few sessions on Johnny Terry's recording sessions in Detroit.  Starting in 1965, when his time with Drifters was winding down (he left them in 1966), he started getting involved in producing records (on the executive  producer level), mainly as a middle man, getting talented artists or independent record producers paired up with recording session producers, and/or record labels that wanted to press and distribute their records. 

His main Detroit project financier was Don Montgomery, who owned The Travler Motel.  Travler Music Publishing Co. was either set up by Montgomery alone, or a partnership of Montgomery and John (Winford) Terry, to publish their projects' songs.  Together, they partnered with Don (Juan) Mancha, in deals made with New York's Scepter-Wand/Garrison Records, in which they used Mike Theodore and Dennis Coffey, or Mike Terry to arrange their songs in Detroit recording sessions.  Johnny Terry must have gotten to know Scepter-Wand's Florence Greenberg through Brill Building song writers that wrote for The Drifters AND for Scepter-Wand's artists, and heard, through them that that label was looking to lease already recorded songs from independent producers for label/and record distribution deals.  Some other Travler projects' sessions were produced by Johnny Nash(Johnny Daye on Jomada), or Johnny Terry and Juggy Murry in New York, with New York's Arthur Jenkins or Detroit's James Bryant arranging(Betty Green). 

So you can see that many different people, who provided different services along the track of a single record's production, marketing, and distribution, end up receiving portions of the records' sales revenue.  I was told, back in the '60s by an industry insider, that Johnny Terry was not present at all the Detroit recording sessions.  But, he got credited as co-producer ("executive producer") along with Don Mancha, and even Don Montgomery(on a couple), because he was the project initiator, and without his connections, the record would have existed.  I believe the co-producer credit for "Montgomery" on The Honey Bees' Garrison record stands for financier, Don Montgomery as "Executive producer for financing the project, rather than singer, Jack Montgomery(AKA Marvin Jones), whose stage name was named after Marvin Gaye and Don Montgomery).  Mancha got co-producer credits, because he ran the sessions, and brought in Mike Theodore and Dennis Coffey, or Mike Terry, or Bob Hamilton(Taurus & Leo) as asst. producers or arrangers.  Johnny Terry also initiated a few projects whose sessions were run in New York, and picked up by New York Soul labels, like Juggy Murry's Sue(Crackerjack) Records.  Murry had also leased a 1963 Detroit production by Fred Brown and Joe Hunter from their Mickay's Records (by Detroit's first Dramatics group).

Several of these independent players in the recording/record-producing industry play multiple roles to varying degrees on different record projects, and, thus, get differing cuts of the revenue pie, from project-to project.  Even inside the major record labels, the cut of the revenue differs, depended upon whether the contributor was a full-time employee, or a pay per-service contractor, based on the contract for that project, or having a contract for providing a single service, or set of services at an agreed upon regular fee for each service, or an employee with a regular salary, plus a contract for production services on each in-house record project.  So, most projects have a different mix of contractors paid for services, and different groups of outside services provided by one or more contractors.  It gets very complicated.

Songwriters get paid individually, for writing the words and music.  If a record label uses their song, they each got an upfront advance on their upcoming royalties from record sales.  Which would be taken from them from the first sales, until fully paid off.  I seem to remember their usual cut was 3% for previously successful writers.  But, I think many record companies, who published the songs through their own in-house publishing companies, sometimes offered only 1 or 2% in their contract, because of the greater risk of getting no sales.  And those writers were generally forced to accept, or not get their music on record to get public exposure.  Usually the beginning writers (often teenaged group member singers) didn't have the cash to pay for the set-up of a music publishing business, and to pay the annual BMI or ASCAP member fees.  Singers got fees agreed to by contract.  I'm pretty sure they varied according to the current artists' popularity.  Arranger and Producer fees varied, depending upon the relationship of the service provider to the record company, and the demand for the outside provider's services. 

Different cuts of a record's sales revenues depended upon how many people were involved.  If there were more middlemen (e.g. outside services were needed that are often provided by company staffs in larger labels), the cut for the record company diminished, but the royalties of the writers and singing artists, or instrumental featured artists (as opposed to session musicians (who were usually payed flat fees per session)) were the same in either situation.  And, of course financiers got a % of the revenue  based on the % of project costs they financed, possibly including recording session, pressing fees, marketing, and distribution costs.  I think record projects varied so much in their detailed structure, that trying to place industry norm figures to given services for any decade or 5-year period might be misleading due to so many different possible combinations of services provided by inside and outside providers.   Given the fact that having to pay several professional fees to outside contractors for different services might get quite costly because those fees are reflective of those contractors' own businesses' overheads. 

So, we can understand how Berry Gordy's Motown's assembly-line structure, and soon after starting to roll, paying mostly flat salaries to non-artists and key musicians, really cut down production costs, to end up bringing in larger profits.  But the major national record companies (RCA, Columbia, ABC/Paramount, Capitol, Warner Bros., United Artists, Mercury, etc.)  with hundreds of employees in regional offices, even though containing more of the recording and record industry services in-house, might have been less efficient overall, and more costly to operate, due to too many employees with overlap in duties, and most employees having far less stake and participation in their company's success and profits.

 

Edited March 6, 20241 yr by Robbk