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Andrew ' Mike ' Terry - bari sax break...or not?


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Dispute here: afficianados of Detroit, its in your court. Its been said Willie Mitchell plays this sax break. He was definitely in Detroit at the time. The belief is he plays trumpet on it...its said he produced and arranged the session at GW....does anyone believe that to be correct as well?

This question though, revolves around WHO plays sax.

To me, without any shred of a doubt, its Terry's signature, instantly recognizable the world over....tell me im wrong?

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9 minutes ago, Andy Rix said:

I always thought it was Mike ... so when I read it was Willie Mitchell that confused me ... never heard Willie play sax like that .. my gut, and my big ears, always said Mike

Thanks for responding Andy, ive posted this as it stems from a conversation been having this evening on the Funks site, where i posted the appreciations track. Rob Moss had put it up on his site initially, according to the difference of opinion on my post, Dave Moore said he spoke to Terry about the track....but so did Rob!, conflicting answers there too....

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I'm adamant its Terry....all and sundry wanted to jump on the Motown bandwagon, artists, producers, arrangers hence, the myriad of labels and sound-a-likes, and plenty of out-of-towners came to the D as well...i mean,Mitchell...reponsible for Hi, discovered Al Green,  producer/arranger who had his own style....nah....thats Terry, all day long...when youve listened to Motown 64-66, his moniker is on everything, and not just at Motown.

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37 minutes ago, Dave Moore said:

Mark Windle researched this group and 45 for his book.  The info he gleaned from first hand sources puts Willie in the frame.  In a separate strand, when I asked MT about the 45 I was very surprised that he was quite adamant that it wasn't him.  I had also assumed it was him, it certainly sounds like him and at the time I thought Mike may just have forgotten about the session.  When Mark's book came out that got me thinking. I guess the jury is still out. As we know the artists themselves can sometimes confuse the actual facts, especially when their catalogue of work is so vast and years before. 

Regards,

Dave      

Thanks for the reply Dave, yourself and the likes of others have been immersed in research moreso, than the vast majority of us who learn as we go along....i'd ascribe to the notion that musicians, or whoever, get confused with time.....its so long ago and they were in demand every day, if they werent the type to keep a logbook/diary of their bookings then its easy to forgive them, forgetting what they did, with who, where and when.

I honestly can't see that being Willie Mitchell, replicating a Terry trademark?, deffo confusion on Mike's part i'd say....yes, Mitchell was in Detroit then....there's photographic verification of that too, at who's behest is unknown?

But thats my opinion and it cant be proved, neither can the theory its Mitchell either.

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From a long de-FUNK-ed web site: lots of possibilities for a bit of 'moonlighting'

THE MOTOWN MUSICIANS

1959 ~ 1962

Saxophones- Hank Crosby, Andrew "Mike" Toney, Norris Patterson, Thomas "Beans" Bowles, Teddy Buckner, Ronnie Wakefield, Lefty Edwards, Eli Fontaine, Ernie Rodgers

 

1963 ~ 1967

Saxophone - Hank Crosby, Andrew "Mike" Terry, Thomas Beans" Bowles, Kasuka Malia, Teddy Buckner, Lefty Edwards, Eugene BeeBee" Moore, William "Wild Bill" Moore, Angelo Carlisi, Ernie Rodgers, Dan Turner, Bernie Peacock, Larry Nozero

 

1968 ~ 1972

Saxophones - Hank Crosby, Kasuka Mafia,Teddy Buckner, Lefty Edwards, Bernie Peacock, Thomas "Beans" Bowles, Eugene "BeeBee" Mooore, William "Wild Bill" Moore, Angelo Carlisi, Ernie Rodgers, Dan Turner, Eli Fontaine, Larry Nozero, Lanny Austin

 

 

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5 hours ago, Simon T said:

From a long de-FUNK-ed web site: lots of possibilities for a bit of 'moonlighting'

THE MOTOWN MUSICIANS

1959 ~ 1962

Saxophones- Hank Crosby, Andrew "Mike" Toney, Norris Patterson, Thomas "Beans" Bowles, Teddy Buckner, Ronnie Wakefield, Lefty Edwards, Eli Fontaine, Ernie Rodgers

 

1963 ~ 1967

Saxophone - Hank Crosby, Andrew "Mike" Terry, Thomas Beans" Bowles, Kasuka Malia, Teddy Buckner, Lefty Edwards, Eugene BeeBee" Moore, William "Wild Bill" Moore, Angelo Carlisi, Ernie Rodgers, Dan Turner, Bernie Peacock, Larry Nozero

 

1968 ~ 1972

Saxophones - Hank Crosby, Kasuka Mafia,Teddy Buckner, Lefty Edwards, Bernie Peacock, Thomas "Beans" Bowles, Eugene "BeeBee" Mooore, William "Wild Bill" Moore, Angelo Carlisi, Ernie Rodgers, Dan Turner, Eli Fontaine, Larry Nozero, Lanny Austin

 

 

Plus, all the usual suspects, Simon...they in particular as good money seemed to be offered outside of what Motown were paying...Ed Wingate for one...if they were alive today, theyd be earning mega bucks for their services ( prime or not )

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Was Hank "Cosby" or "Crosby" his actual name.  From the scores(maybe hundreds?) of record credits I've seen for him over the years, it was spelled much, much more as "Cosby".  I always thought the "Crosby" spelling was a misprint.

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2 minutes ago, Robbk said:

Was Hank "Cosby" or "Crosby" his actual name.  From the scores(maybe hundreds?) of record credits I've seen for him over the years, it was spelled much, much more as "Cosby".  I always thought the "Crosby" spelling was a misprint.

Cosby, his actual first name is Henry

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23 minutes ago, Simon T said:

Didn't he play sax on Margaret Little - Love Finds a Away?

Yes, he did. Not the Andantes on backing though. Andy Rix related the full story about Margaret and this record, on here a while back, including an update...fascinating story.

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5 minutes ago, Agentsmith said:

Yes, he did. Not the Andantes on backing though. Andy Rix related the full story about Margaret and this record, on here a while back, including an update...fascinating story.

Not a record I'd be advertising on my CV ... :no:

It's a pity he didn't put down his instrument and pick up a microphone , He might have made a better vocalist than Maggie ... :rolleyes: 

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On 28/02/2024 at 11:34, Agentsmith said:

Dispute here: afficianados of Detroit, its in your court. Its been said Willie Mitchell plays this sax break. He was definitely in Detroit at the time. The belief is he plays trumpet on it...its said he produced and arranged the session at GW....does anyone believe that to be correct as well?

This question though, revolves around WHO plays sax.

To me, without any shred of a doubt, its Terry's signature, instantly recognizable the world over....tell me im wrong?

I can believe the sax player on this recording is someone other than Mike Terry.  It sounds a bit like him, but is rougher than his usual.  It just doesn't sound nearly as good as what I remember by him.  If I see actual documentation stating it IS him, I'll believe it, but recognise that this wasn't his best performance by far.

Edited by Robbk
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Mike gave me a list of records he played on. That one is not on the list. Dave Moore got it from Mike himself. Robb K has his doubts.

However, the little experience I have in interviewing people showed me that they cannot remember everything that happened in 50-60 years ago.

 

 

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9 hours ago, David Meikle said:

Mike gave me a list of records he played on. That one is not on the list. Dave Moore got it from Mike himself. Robb K has his doubts.

However, the little experience I have in interviewing people showed me that they cannot remember everything that happened in 50-60 years ago.

 

 

That's been my experience too, David; and I've also been surprised to have fans show me scenes in stories I wrote and drew 45-50 years ago that I had forgotten about, until shown them.  If you've worked on hundreds of productions half a century to 40 years ago, it's difficult to remember EVERY one, at the drop of a hat, without being in context.

But, the bari sax solo on The Appreciations' cut doesn't sound "warm" enough to be Mike, it sounds "flat".  Actually, I don't like anything about this recording's production, for a 60s Detroit Soul record, including  the songwriting, arrangement, and the musicians' performances.  They definitely don't sound like The Funk Brothers and other Motown musicians who played on most of Golden World's, Correc-Tone's, Thelma's, Solid Hitbound's, plus other better quality "off-Motown" Detroit musicians.  Also, by this late in the '60s, Mike didn't just sign on to a recording project as a sax player, without being the arranger (and a lot of the time, the producer).  This sounds NOTHING like a mike Terry arrangement.  The melody and direction of the song is too "muddy" a mix, and not at all crisp and with good separation like his normal productions.  Until shown proof to the contrary, I really think he wasn't involved in this one.

 

Edited by Robbk
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2 hours ago, Robbk said:

....But, the bari sax solo on The Appreciations' cut doesn't sound "warm" enough to be Mike, it sounds "flat".  Actually, I don't like anything about this recording's production, for a 60s Detroit Soul record, including  the songwriting, arrangement, and the musicians' performances.  They definitely don't sound like The Funk Brothers and other Motown musicians who played on most of Golden World's, Correc-Tone's, Thelma's, Solid Hitbound's, plus other better quality "off-Motown" Detroit musicians.  Also, by this late in the '60s, Mike didn't just sign on to a recording project as a sax player, without being the arranger (and a lot of the time, the producer).  This sounds NOTHING like a mike Terry arrangement.  The melody and direction of the song is to "muddy" a mix, and not at all crisp and with good separation like his normal productions.  Until shown proof to the contrary,, I really think he wasn't involved in this one.

Although I love the record exactly for those reasons ; for it's brute, raw, un-precise and vigorous rendition so nothing clean, swift and tight like the Funk Brothers were or even like both their following releases on Sport.

Like you to my ears it never sounded like Mike on this Aware baritone sax break. Nor as you precisely point out where at this stage in his career Mike was not only involved in such projects beyond his sole sax blow.

8 hours ago, David Meikle said:

Mike gave me a list of records he played on. That one is not on the list. Dave Moore got it from Mike himself. Robb K has his doubts.

However, the little experience I have in interviewing people showed me that they cannot remember everything that happened in 50-60 years ago.

Evidently time and old age play it's part but that 'list' is another lead going against that theory until a better argument comes along to counter these elements and different opinions on the matter if it were to be.

Edited by Tlscapital
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8 hours ago, David Meikle said:

Mike gave me a list of records he played on. That one is not on the list. Dave Moore got it from Mike himself. Robb K has his doubts.

However, the little experience I have in interviewing people showed me that they cannot remember everything that happened in 50-60 years ago.

 

 

That's certainly true, and applies to anyone!, its what you hear....to me, theres no question of deciphering who it is....it sounds for all the world like Mike, because nobody had a signature like that.....but we'll never truly know so, as already commented here, the jury is out.

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1 hour ago, Agentsmith said:

That's certainly true, and applies to anyone!, its what you hear....to me, theres no question of deciphering who it is....it sounds for all the world like Mike, because nobody had a signature like that.....but we'll never truly know so, as already commented here, the jury is out.

Yes, the notes and entire musical phrase are typical of a Mike Terry intro, which reminds me of a Supremes' song from late 1964 or early '65 (I can't remember which).  But, to me, it sounds like IF it was Mike, he was suffering from the flu, or it was another sax player trying his best to imitate Mike.  And the acoustics don't sound to me like this was recorded at Golden World.  The sax doesn't sound to me like Willie Mitchell, either. Could it have been Mitchell, trying hard to use Terry's style because he was recording in a Detroit studio for a Detroit group?  

Edited by Robbk
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20 minutes ago, Robbk said:

Yes, the notes and entire musical phrase are typical of a Mike Terry intro, which reminds me of a Supremes' song from late 1964 or early '65 (I can't remember which).  But, to me, it sounds like IF it was Mike, he was suffering from the flu, or it was another sax player trying his best to imitate Mike.  And the acoustics don't sound to me like this was recorded at Golden World.  The sax doesn't sound to me like Willie Mitchell, either. Could it have been Mitchell, trying hard to use Terry's style because he was recording in a Detroit studio for a Detroit group?  

Hi Robb,The Appreciations were from Charlotte not Detroit.

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27 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Hi Robb,The Appreciations were from Charlotte not Detroit.

Thanks for informing me of that.  And I've read that Aware Records was located in Charlotte, NC.  So why do people think this song was recorded at Golden World, in Detroit?  It certainly doesn't sound like Golden World to me.  And I don't hear any distinctive Detroit musicians playing on it (other than the Mike Terry emulator).  Maybe it was Willie Mitchell in Charlotte, trying to sound like Terry (because The Appreciations had previously recorded in Detroit, for Sport)?   

Edited by Robbk
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31 minutes ago, Robbk said:

Thanks for informing me of that.  And I've read that Aware Records was located in Charlotte, NC.  So why do people think this song was recorded at Golden World, in Detroit?  It certainly doesn't sound like Golden World to me.  And I don't hear any distinctive Detroit musicians playing on it (other than the Mike Terry emulator).  Maybe it was Willie Mitchell in Charlotte, trying to sound like Terry (because The Appreciations had previously recorded in Detroit, for Sport)?   

According to the article called Its better to cry,The Appreciations were taken to Detroit by Willie Mitchell and the whole session was supervised by him and also that he was the sax player.

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3 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

According to the article called Its better to cry,The Appreciations were taken to Detroit by Willie Mitchell and the whole session was supervised by him and also that he was the sax player.

Exactly. Well the baritone sax break by Willie immitating Mike  is a possibility at least... This while Willie was catching on the Detroit Sound in Detroit. As he was involved with this group following session as producer.

Capturedcran2024-03-0209_38_42.thumb.png.89f52125e94321c6239b43b20371a3b1.png

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2 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Exactly. Well the baritone sax break by Willie immitating Mike  is a possibility at least... This while Willie was catching on the Detroit Sound in Detroit. As he was involved with this group following session as producer.

Capturedcran2024-03-0209_38_42.thumb.png.89f52125e94321c6239b43b20371a3b1.png

This was the follow up recording after Aware,Its better to cry was recorded in Charlotte under the supervision of Moses Dillard,it is thought that he plays guitar on it and that The Tempest were the backing musicians.

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9 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Exactly. Well the baritone sax break by Willie immitating Mike  is a possibility at least... This while Willie was catching on the Detroit Sound in Detroit. As he was involved with this group following session as producer.

Capturedcran2024-03-0209_38_42.thumb.png.89f52125e94321c6239b43b20371a3b1.png

I have just been reading the article its better to cry once more and the instrumentation to the flip side of this which is she never really loved me was done in Memphis,so who is playing the baritone sax on that?Same guy who is playing on I can't hide it.?

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7 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

I have just been reading the article its better to cry once more and the instrumentation to the flip side of this which is she never really loved me was done in Memphis,so who is playing the baritone sax on that?Same guy who is playing on I can't hide it.?

"I hear NO Bari sax on it's Better To Cry".  but I can say that the recording sounds nothing like Detroit, bearing out the report that it was Memphis, and there are no Detroit names on the record.  I always suspected that it wasn't recorded in Detroit.

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5 minutes ago, Robbk said:

"I hear NO Bari sax on it's Better To Cry".  but I can say that the recording sounds nothing like Detroit, bearing out the report that it was Memphis, and there are no Detroit names on the record.  I always suspected that it wasn't recorded in Detroit.

Rob i was not talking about its better to cry,i was talking about she never really loved me which is the flip side of There's a place in my heart Sport 108.

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13 minutes ago, Robbk said:

"I hear NO Bari sax on it's Better To Cry".  but I can say that the recording sounds nothing like Detroit, bearing out the report that it was Memphis, and there are no Detroit names on the record.  I always suspected that it wasn't recorded in Detroit.

The baritone sax on 'she never loved me' (not on 'it's better to cry' true !) is 'pumping' groin-groin in the backing track following the drum roll tempo. The whole musical arrangement does sound Detroit like. At least it's a wannabe just as Willie Mitchell wanted it to be.

Edited by Tlscapital
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4 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Rob i was not talking about its better to cry,i was talking about she never really loved me which is the flip side of There's a place in my heart Sport 108.

I have that record and bought it new, also Sport 111.  I always assumed this one was recorded in Detroit.  I hear some Detroit musicians on it.  The acoustics sound a lot like Sidra/TerraShirma Studio as opposed to Golden World.  I guess this record represented the Appreciations coming to Detroit and recording there.  I See that Willie Mitchell was credited as producer.  But, I'm not convinced The Aware record was recorded in Detroit.  The bari sax on Sport 108 sounds like mike Terry's style, and could well be him.  But it's too sparse, and subdued in the background, to tell for sure.  But I'd still bet that Mike Terry arranged it, and played the sax on it, too.  This is the reason why I originally thought that The Appreciations were a Detroit group.  I also have the Gaines-Leeper penned Appreciations' record on Jubilee.  I'm surprised I didn't connect it with The Sport group.  And I never liked the Aware cuts, and thought they were a different "Southern" group.  

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8 hours ago, Robbk said:

I have that record and bought it new, also Sport 111.  I always assumed this one was recorded in Detroit.  I hear some Detroit musicians on it.  The acoustics sound a lot like Sidra/TerraShirma Studio as opposed to Golden World.  I guess this record represented the Appreciations coming to Detroit and recording there.  I See that Willie Mitchell was credited as producer.  But, I'm not convinced The Aware record was recorded in Detroit.  The bari sax on Sport 108 sounds like mike Terry's style, and could well be him.  But it's too sparse, and subdued in the background, to tell for sure.  But I'd still bet that Mike Terry arranged it, and played the sax on it, too.  This is the reason why I originally thought that The Appreciations were a Detroit group.  I also have the Gaines-Leeper penned Appreciations' record on Jubilee.  I'm surprised I didn't connect it with The Sport group.  And I never liked the Aware cuts, and thought they were a different "Southern" group.  

The Jubilee sides are both Hattie Leeper’s Chattlee publishing like most of the other Appreciations sides. The ‘It’s Better To Cry’ 45 sides are New York production teams - Phil Medley producing one and publishing both. Blake and Nieves were his NYC writers 

Edited by Ady Croasdell
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3 hours ago, Agentsmith said:

In probability, that varifies it as a Detroit recording then Ady, and at his studios?

It verifies that the demo was made in DH studios but where is the master tape that gave us the 45?

Ady will be able to tell us if both sound identical. Plus, what was DH studios on Hamilton like for sound recognition? The sound on DH cd’s is excellent IMO.

Finally, why is Chattlee Productions printed on “I Can’t Hide It” if the final recording was done at Dave’s place? 

Sorry, I’m out my depth on this subject, but find this intriguing.

Edited by David Meikle
IMO added plus others
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5 hours ago, Agentsmith said:

In probability, that varifies it as a Detroit recording then Ady, and at his studios?

Not definitely, Dave worked with people from around the country on occasion. It may just be a demo he was sent, though I have a feeling it was with some others, I’ll check on Monday. It may have bee ln his studio but unlikely as it was his small home studio by then I think 

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1 hour ago, David Meikle said:

It verifies that the demo was made in DH studios but where is the master tape that gave us the 45?

Ady will be able to tell us if both sound identical. Plus, what was DH studios on Hamilton like for sound recognition? The sound on DH cd’s is excellent IMO.

Finally, why is Chattlee Productions printed on “I Can’t Hide It” if the final recording was done at Dave’s place? 

Sorry, I’m out my depth on this subject, but find this intriguing.

The demo may have been sent to Dave, I’ll check the tape box for more info. I doubt the final recording was done at Dave’s. Maybe Hattie Leeper brought them up to Detroit for the sound. As a DJ she would probably have connections there 

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Another very minor lead. Jack Ashford gave me a “like” on Facebook last week for an advert featuring Willie Mitchell’s “On Top” album. As Jack worked with Mike perhaps he could help. Who knows Jack on here? LOL.

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Meikle
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1 hour ago, David Meikle said:

Another very minor lead. Jack Ashford gave me a “like” on Facebook last week for an advert featuring Willie Mitchell’s “On Top” album. As Jack worked with Mike perhaps he could help. Who knows Jack on here? LOL.

 

 

 

 

I’m friends with Jack on there.  I’ve asked him a few questions over time, last one last week but he rarely can remember anything. 

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12 hours ago, David Meikle said:

It verifies that the demo was made in DH studios but where is the master tape that gave us the 45?

Ady will be able to tell us if both sound identical. Plus, what was DH studios on Hamilton like for sound recognition? The sound on DH cd’s is excellent IMO.

Finally, why is Chattlee Productions printed on “I Can’t Hide It” if the final recording was done at Dave’s place? 

Sorry, I’m out my depth on this subject, but find this intriguing.

Chattlee Productions could get producer credits rights, just because The Appreciations were their artists, and, by agreement in the artists' contract, or deal with the studio producer, they get to be called executive producers regardless of whether they run the recording session, or farm it out to someone else.  It's certainly not a guarantee that they handled all the production "on the ground".  That's why we often saw credits for Berry Gordy as producer, when Smokey Robinson ran the session.

I rather think the demo was made for, and left with, Dave Hamilton, as samples, because Mitchell was looking for a Detroit producer to run his upcoming Detroit Appreciations' recording sessions.

 

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Thanks Robb

Money changing hands in the making of a recording has always intrigued me.

Can you breakdown for me who gets paid - from lyrics being written down, to a record going on sale in the shops. Probably a big story but I’d love to know.

For example what happens after someone scribbles down a few lyrics in a bar/pub one night. No money has been incurred in the making of a record at this point.

What is next in the process and who gets paid?

I’ve never quite understood why, for example, some “weak” lyrics like in case of the Beatles “She Loves You” can make the lyric writer lots of money over many (70?) years.

And why would Mike Terry (for example) require a producer when he has all the skills to write charts, add the “sweeteners” etc.

Bobby Eli told me once that (he thought) the arranger was the most important person on a recording.

Yet he gets a fraction of the income that (in the above example) the “crass” lyric writer got.

Hope you can help.

David

 

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, David Meikle said:

Thanks Robb

Money changing hands in the making of a recording has always intrigued me.

Can you breakdown for me who gets paid - from lyrics being written down, to a record going on sale in the shops. Probably a big story but I’d love to know.

For example what happens after someone scribbles down a few lyrics in a bar/pub one night. No money has been incurred in the making of a record at this point.

What is next in the process and who gets paid?

I’ve never quite understood why, for example, some “weak” lyrics like in case of the Beatles “She Loves You” can make the lyric writer lots of money over many (70?) years.

And why would Mike Terry (for example) require a producer when he has all the skills to write charts, add the “sweeteners” etc.

Bobby Eli told me once that (he thought) the arranger was the most important person on a recording.

Yet he gets a fraction of the income that (in the above example) the “crass” lyric writer got.

Hope you can help.

David

 

 

 

 

When you mention the importance of the arranger,Paul Riser at motown is a perfect example.

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