I've recently read that the 'organisers' of Prestatyn Week-enders informed Bobby Taylor that he wasn't allowed to perform his biggest hit , 'Does your mama know about me?'.presumably because it was too slow?

Is that true? Surely not!

I don’t know about that but at Cleethorpes weekender, Al Wilson performed ‘Help me’ even though he never recorded it and said he didn’t actually know the song at all until he was specifically asked to perform it, and it must have been “another Al Wilson”…

1 hour ago, Owd Codger said:

I've recently read that the 'organisers' of Prestatyn Week-enders informed Bobby Taylor that he wasn't allowed to perform his biggest hit , 'Does your mama know about me?'.presumably because it was too slow?

Is that true? Surely not!

I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, well done to them if they did.

Many artists enticed to play in the UK or Europe are either plucked from semi obscurity or from the cabaret circuit where they now perform. Guidance on which tunes from their current or past repertoire might be best suited to the audience they are booked to perform for can only be a good thing. I'm no great Bobby Taylor fan and I don't know about that tune being his biggest hit, but I've just heard it for the first time and I'd be happy not to hear it again.

I agree,i reckon its down to the promotors to "suggest" the set list well in advance of the booking so that said artist can get there shit together with the band...or kareoke machine😂

Couldn’t answer that one but I do know Chuck Jackson refused to sing WWTL at Prestatyn. Dave Tidswell may be the guy to ask.

So, an artist whose career was launched by a song, by far his most succesful record, and without which most people would never had heard of him, is not allowed to perform it?

14 minutes ago, Mick Boyle said:

Couldn’t answer that one but I do know Chuck Jackson refused to sing WWTL at Prestatyn. Dave Tidswell may be the guy to ask.

Interesting. I saw Chuck Jackson, around the time his Motown Anthology was out, and he sang at least one, maybe two, unreleased songs from that CD. He told the audience he didn't know the song(s) very well, and asked for 'help' with them.

Neddless to say, he performed them very well..the odd lyric apart.

Edited September 26Sep 26 by Owd Codger

18 hours ago, Owd Codger said:

So, an artist whose career was launched by a song, by far his most succesful record, and without which most people would never had heard of him, is not allowed to perform it?

Yeah, I wouldn't have wanted to hear it. All the artists that I've seen, I've wanted them to sing the things I've known them for ie mainly stuff thats been played on the northern scene

Must have been a very short performance.

I wonder what the Originals sang at the Ritz?

Promoters have always suggested to acts what they and the crowd want to hear as generally they have no real idea.

I remember Spyder Turner who sang what he wanted and he was the biggest let down I have ever heard after looking forward to seeing him so much.

Surely the artist if it’s his first time over here performing before a northern soul audience should do his own research as to what’s expected of him and with the help of the promotion adjust to perform for that specific crowd, to save any potential embarrassment and disappointment to himself and the audience, it’s definitely not rocket science

Mick

52 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

Surely the artist if it’s his first time over here performing before a northern soul audience should do his own research as to what’s expected of him and with the help of the promotion adjust to perform for that specific crowd, to save any potential embarrassment and disappointment to himself and the audience, it’s definitely not rocket science

Mick

Not so Billy Butler at the Casino , or the 1st visit by Betty Lavette at Blackpool

An artist has to avoid all sorts of pitfalls if he / she is unaware of the audience they are performing for. I believe Jackie Wilson disappointed a lot of people with the choice of songs he performed when on at the Casino.

It seems H B Barnum, when he was asked to perform at the Yarmouth Northern Soul Weekender also picked a selection of songs that the promoters had to talk him out of.

BUT the wrong material for the crowd isn't the only problem. ... Back when Roy Tempest was a booking agent of force (mid to late 60's), he ran the FAKE GROUPS scam. AND, he didn't tell the acts involved who they were supposed to be. The Diplomats (well Sam, Erv & Tom actually) were booked to tour the UK as the Isley Brothers. They turned up at a venue & saw the posters outside advertising the Isley's and said to the club management ,,, "GREAT, those guys are big friends of ours" .. only to be told THEY were the Isley Brothers. Other visiting acts (the Steinways, the Puzzles, the Internationals) puzzled their audiences as they didn't perform the songs made famous by the groups that they were supposed to be.

Lou Ragland had a different problem when he came over here in 1990. He was told which songs the audience would want to hear him perform. They were all 1960's & 1970's numbers except for his much more recent track "Making Love". He performed the songs as requested but his voice had matured / changed down the years. So his old songs didn't sound the same as on the old records, whereas MAKING LOVE did. At a show in Windsor a coupe of guys came up to me after the show to ask why Lou had just mimed to MAKING LOVE. Puzzled I asked why they would think that ... "Ohh, he sounded exactly how he did on the actual recording, so he must have been miming".

You can't win em all it seems !!

Edited September 28Sep 28 by Roburt

11 hours ago, Roburt said:

An artist has to avoid all sorts of pitfalls if he / she is unaware of the audience they are performing for. I believe Jackie Wilson disappointed a lot of people with the choice of songs he performed when on at the Casino.

It seems H B Barnum, when he was asked to perform at the Yarmouth Northern Soul Weekender also picked a selection of songs that the promoters had to talk him out of.

BUT the wrong material for the crowd isn't the only problem. ... Back when Roy Tempest was a booking agent of force (mid to late 60's), he ran the FAKE GROUPS scam. AND, he didn't tell the acts involved who they were supposed to be. The Diplomats (well Sam, Erv & Tom actually) were booked to tour the UK as the Isley Brothers. They turned up at a venue & saw the posters outside advertising the Isley's and said to the club management ,,, "GREAT, those guys are big friends of ours" .. only to be told THEY were the Isley Brothers. Other visiting acts (the Steinways, the Puzzles, the Internationals) puzzled their audiences as they didn't perform the songs made famous by the groups that they were supposed to be.

Lou Ragland had a different problem when he came over here in 1990. He was told which songs the audience would want to hear him perform. They were all 1960's & 1970's numbers except for his much more recent track "Making Love". He performed the songs as requested but his voice had matured / changed down the years. So his old songs didn't sound the same as on the old records, whereas MAKING LOVE did. At a show in Windsor a coupe of guys came up to me after the show to ask why Lou had just mimed to MAKING LOVE. Puzzled I asked why they would think that ... "Ohh, he sounded exactly how he did on the actual recoding, so he must have been miming".

You can't win em all it seems !!

11 hours ago, Roburt said:

An artist has to avoid all sorts of pitfalls if he / she is unaware of the audience they are performing for. I believe Jackie Wilson disappointed a lot of people with the choice of songs he performed when on at the Casino.

It seems H B Barnum, when he was asked to perform at the Yarmouth Northern Soul Weekender also picked a selection of songs that the promoters had to talk him out of.

BUT the wrong material for the crowd isn't the only problem. ... Back when Roy Tempest was a booking agent of force (mid to late 60's), he ran the FAKE GROUPS scam. AND, he didn't tell the acts involved who they were supposed to be. The Diplomats (well Sam, Erv & Tom actually) were booked to tour the UK as the Isley Brothers. They turned up at a venue & saw the posters outside advertising the Isley's and said to the club management ,,, "GREAT, those guys are big friends of ours" .. only to be told THEY were the Isley Brothers. Other visiting acts (the Steinways, the Puzzles, the Internationals) puzzled their audiences as they didn't perform the songs made famous by the groups that they were supposed to be.

Lou Ragland had a different problem when he came over here in 1990. He was told which songs the audience would want to hear him perform. They were all 1960's & 1970's numbers except for his much more recent track "Making Love". He performed the songs as requested but his voice had matured / changed down the years. So his old songs didn't sound the same as on the old records, whereas MAKING LOVE did. At a show in Windsor a coupe of guys came up to me after the show to ask why Lou had just mimed to MAKING LOVE. Puzzled I asked why they would think that ... "Ohh, he sounded exactly how he did on the actual recoding, so he must have been miming".

You can't win em all it seems !!

11 hours ago, Roburt said:

An artist has to avoid all sorts of pitfalls if he / she is unaware of the audience they are performing for. I believe Jackie Wilson disappointed a lot of people with the choice of songs he performed when on at the Casino.

It seems H B Barnum, when he was asked to perform at the Yarmouth Northern Soul Weekender also picked a selection of songs that the promoters had to talk him out of.

BUT the wrong material for the crowd isn't the only problem. ... Back when Roy Tempest was a booking agent of force (mid to late 60's), he ran the FAKE GROUPS scam. AND, he didn't tell the acts involved who they were supposed to be. The Diplomats (well Sam, Erv & Tom actually) were booked to tour the UK as the Isley Brothers. They turned up at a venue & saw the posters outside advertising the Isley's and said to the club management ,,, "GREAT, those guys are big friends of ours" .. only to be told THEY were the Isley Brothers. Other visiting acts (the Steinways, the Puzzles, the Internationals) puzzled their audiences as they didn't perform the songs made famous by the groups that they were supposed to be.

Lou Ragland had a different problem when he came over here in 1990. He was told which songs the audience would want to hear him perform. They were all 1960's & 1970's numbers except for his much more recent track "Making Love". He performed the songs as requested but his voice had matured / changed down the years. So his old songs didn't sound the same as on the old records, whereas MAKING LOVE did. At a show in Windsor a coupe of guys came up to me after the show to ask why Lou had just mimed to MAKING LOVE. Puzzled I asked why they would think that ... "Ohh, he sounded exactly how he did on the actual recoding, so he must have been miming".

You can't win em all it seems !!

I rest my case

M

18 hours ago, Happy Feet said:

Not so Billy Butler at the Casino , or the 1st visit by Betty Lavette at Blackpool

I rest my case

M

If an Artist performs songs not identified by a NS crowd, then obviously it won't work.

I didn't suggest that Bobby Taylor did that. In his case, how many of his tunes would fit the bill?

Oh I've been blessed, There are Roses, Don't be afraid, I can't quit your love (?).

Surely a Soul crowd would appreciate his biggest record, and many (most?) would know it. And what would be the alternative...sing songs thay nobody knew, or songs that he never actuallly recorded himself.

Edited September 28Sep 28 by Owd Codger

BACK IN THE DAY IT WAS SO DIFFERENT ... . . . For those of us old enough to have got to see live US acts back in the mid to late 60's, things were very different ...

I'll use one artist to make my point; EDWIN STARR ... . . . Edwin had burst onto the scene in the US after he'd broken with Bill Doggett's band, hooked up with a Deroit record label & recorded his own song "Agent 00 Soul". This immediately became a massive US hit (a June 65 release that quickly made the R&B and then pop charts -- going to #21 pop and earning him appearances on TV shows like Shindig! and Hollywood a Go Go). The singles US hit status didn't convert to overseas releases, probably coz (apart from in Canada) Golden World / Ric Tic didn't have deals in place. By early 66, that situation was remedied for his 3rd 45 release - "Stop Her On Sight". Polydor picked up the rights to this single in the UK and put it out. It quickly became a club hit (& got lots of pirate radio spins, making Radio London's chart). "Headline News" followed in late July & Polydor brought him over to publicise this 45 with some press, TV and club dates. Edwin was on the RSG show broadcast on Friday 5th August (promoting "Headline News").  Pete Stringfellow was working the RSG crowd & saw the reaction to Edwin, so booked him to play the Mojo Club for his first ever UK live show (an all-nighter 13th August). Edwin later stated “The gig was great, as everyone knew my records. They were so knowledgeable and receptive of the music. It was my first great gig over here and the club was filled to capacity”. The Mojo Club had a capacity of 250, but with no Health & Safety back then, usually up to 400 mods would attend niter sessions.

Edwin would make a big impression wherever he played & soon returned to play UK dates again (& again -- he toured here in October 66, January 67, May 67 & January 68 !!). For his 1st show @ the Mojo, he had picked up a UK backing band but travelled to the club separately. The band making their own travel arrangements, which included a rapid return down south. So Edwin found himself in Sheffield in the middle of the night with no travel or hotel arrangements in place. He explained this to Pete & so found himself sleeping on the floor at Pete's parents house. After that, he & Pete became best buddies & Edwin would just about always play the Mojo (till it was closed) when in the UK -- his 3rd appearance at the club being for a normal Sunday night session (see ad).

Anyway, enough waffle. So Edwin was performing in the UK and had enjoyed 2 x 45 releases by July 66. I have no idea what songs he actually included in his live show back then (memory is shot) but they would have included "Stop Her On Sight", "Headline News" & "Agent 00 Soul" (coz it had a UK connection - James Bond). Much of the rest of his show would have been him performing current / recent US soul hits as he would have been doing these back in the US (updating which he did as older ones got stale / became less popular with his audiences). BUT also coz they would have been songs his UK backing musicians knew & could play. So live shows back then were much different, obscure songs to us Brits wouldn't have been performed as the musicians here wouldn't know them (a RESTRICTION ON THEIR SET) . . .

. . . JUST IN PASSING, I'll also mention, that to raise the energy level of each show, most songs were performed at a faster pace than the recorded versions at that time. So they wouldn't have sounded much like the recorded version anyway (UK backing bands were sometimes made up of just 2 guitar players, keyboards & drums, so recreating the studio sound -- brass, strings, etc - closely was impossible).

Back then, most visiting acts would include "Knock On Wood" in their show as it was such a popular tune & every singer / backing musician knew the song.

Edited September 28Sep 28 by Roburt

I show details of Edwin's visit to the Mojo (see ad in last post) in the listing below. As a further indication to how popular he was as a live draw back then just see how often he played certain places -- Derby & Nottingham being just 2 of these ... BUT notice also how his backing band kept changing (due to other existing bookings for the UK bands) ... how Edwin coped with the backing band changing so often I can only guess ...

31 May 1967 – Clouds, Derby with the Senate

2 June 1967 – Starlite, Greenford, London

3 June 1967 – Clouds, Derby with the Senate

5 June 1967 – Club Cedar, Birmingham with the Warren Davis Monday Band

6 June 1967 – Dungeon Club, Nottingham with the Warren Davis Monday Band

9 June 1967 – Beachcomber, Nottingham & Britannia Rowing Club, Nottingham with the Warren Davis Monday Band

10 June 1967 – Nite Owl, Leicester & Boston Gliderdrome, Boston with the Warren Davis Monday Band,

11 June 1967 – King Mojo, Sheffield with the Senate

12 June 1967 – Atlanta Ballroom, Woking with the Warren Davis Monday Band

15 June 1967 – Golden Torch, Tunstall

17 June 1967 – New Century Hall, Manchester

18 June 1967 – Warmingham Grange Country Club, Warmingham, Cheshire + the Beat Centre Club, Co-op Hall, Warrington, Cheshire

NOT ALL SHOWS ON THE TOUR LISTED, info missing to me.

I'd guess he also played the Wheel that visit though he'd already played the club twice earlier in 67 ( 4th Feb + 7th March). He'd also played the Mojo on that earlier visit (11th Feb) and 2 shows @ Boston's Gliderdrome, 2 @ London's Saville Theatre (owned by the Beatles), + other shows in Manchester, Warrington, Coventry, Liverpool, Grimsby, Dunstable, Rawmarsh (Rotherham), etc. + lots of course in London.

Edited September 29Sep 29 by Roburt

On 27/09/2025 at 14:34, Happy Feet said:

Not so Billy Butler at the Casino , or the 1st visit by Betty Lavette at Blackpool

Was Bettye at Blackpool from a couple of years ago? What did she sing? She was fantastic back in 89/90

On 27/09/2025 at 13:39, Hooker1951 said:

Surely the artist if it’s his first time over here performing before a northern soul audience should do his own research as to what’s expected of him and with the help of the promotion adjust to perform for that specific crowd, to save any potential embarrassment and disappointment to himself and the audience, it’s definitely not rocket science

Mick

Many acts wanted to forget their early careers, many couldn't remember them and so had to be reminded and then advised as to what the audience wanted to hear.

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

Was Bettye at Blackpool from a couple of years ago? What did

It was 2002 , she came I'm told directly from the Paris Jazz festival & had obviously brought that performance not a Northern Soul set , very sad to witness as the audience wasn't expecting what they heard and soon let her know , very upsetting actually.

34 minutes ago, Happy Feet said:

It was 2002 , she came I'm told directly from the Paris Jazz festival & had obviously brought that performance not a Northern Soul set , very sad to witness as the audience wasn't expecting what they heard and soon let her know , very upsetting actually.

Ah right, I didn't see that performance. She had a new album, out in 2002 so I guess she was promoting that.

On 27/09/2025 at 11:58, Owd Codger said:

Must have been a very short performance.

I wonder what the Originals sang at the Ritz?

I certainly remember them doing, 'baby I'm for real ' I've never heard people gasp before when someone sang, it seemed like the whole room did.

Edited October 1Oct 1 by Geeselad

On 28/09/2025 at 10:34, Roburt said:

BACK IN THE DAY IT WAS SO DIFFERENT ... . . . For those of us old enough to have got to see live US acts back in the mid to late 60's, things were very different ...

I'll use one artist to make my point; EDWIN STARR ... . . . Edwin had burst onto the scene in the US after he'd broken with Bill Doggett's band, hooked up with a Deroit record label & recorded his own song "Agent 00 Soul". This immediately became a massive US hit (a June 65 release that quickly made the R&B and then pop charts -- going to #21 pop and earning him appearances on TV shows like Shindig! and Hollywood a Go Go). The singles US hit status didn't convert to overseas releases, probably coz (apart from in Canada) Golden World / Ric Tic didn't have deals in place. By early 66, that situation was remedied for his 3rd 45 release - "Stop Her On Sight". Polydor picked up the rights to this single in the UK and put it out. It quickly became a club hit (& got lots of pirate radio spins, making Radio London's chart). "Headline News" followed in late July & Polydor brought him over to publicise this 45 with some press, TV and club dates. Edwin was on the RSG show broadcast on Friday 5th August (promoting "Headline News").  Pete Stringfellow was working the RSG crowd & saw the reaction to Edwin, so booked him to play the Mojo Club for his first ever UK live show (an all-nighter 13th August). Edwin later stated “The gig was great, as everyone knew my records. They were so knowledgeable and receptive of the music. It was my first great gig over here and the club was filled to capacity”. The Mojo Club had a capacity of 250, but with no Health & Safety back then, usually up to 400 mods would attend niter sessions.

Edwin would make a big impression wherever he played & soon returned to play UK dates again (& again -- he toured here in October 66, January 67, May 67 & January 68 !!). For his 1st show @ the Mojo, he had picked up a UK backing band but travelled to the club separately. The band making their own travel arrangements, which included a rapid return down south. So Edwin found himself in Sheffield in the middle of the night with no travel or hotel arrangements in place. He explained this to Pete & so found himself sleeping on the floor at Pete's parents house. After that, he & Pete became best buddies & Edwin would just about always play the Mojo (till it was closed) when in the UK -- his 3rd appearance at the club being for a normal Sunday night session (see ad).

Anyway, enough waffle. So Edwin was performing in the UK and had enjoyed 2 x 45 releases by July 66. I have no idea what songs he actually included in his live show back then (memory is shot) but they would have included "Stop Her On Sight", "Headline News" & "Agent 00 Soul" (coz it had a UK connection - James Bond). Much of the rest of his show would have been him performing current / recent US soul hits as he would have been doing these back in the US (updating which he did as older ones got stale / became less popular with his audiences). BUT also coz they would have been songs his UK backing musicians knew & could play. So live shows back then were much different, obscure songs to us Brits wouldn't have been performed as the musicians here wouldn't know them (a RESTRICTION ON THEIR SET) . . .

. . . JUST IN PASSING, I'll also mention, that to raise the energy level of each show, most songs were performed at a faster pace than the recorded versions at that time. So they wouldn't have sounded much like the recorded version anyway (UK backing bands were sometimes made up of just 2 guitar players, keyboards & drums, so recreating the studio sound -- brass, strings, etc - closely was impossible).

Back then, most visiting acts would include "Knock On Wood" in their show as it was such a popular tune & every singer / backing musician knew the song.

I've read that virtually every soul act that played the whee,l did , ' midnite hour'.

When Soul artists came over here late 60,s early 70,s they just got on stage and did their thing either using their own backing bands or using ours, eg sounds incorporated etc and has a rule and I was lucky enough to see most of the sometimes two , three, and four times in that period and trust me they were good, in 1964 I watched Inez and Charlie Fox blow the rest of the bill including kinks and top British beat groups of the time into space I was 12 or 13 at the time, I realised then the gulf and class and depth of Soul artists from the USA compared to us, But they were of that time performing in that time to Audiences that either embrace Soul music ,we’re open to embracing it, all those factors need to be remembered, move on 60 years you bring an artist who has never been here before knows very little of the history of NS play with a band behind them sing songs they have probably not sang for 40 years plus and be sound perfect it’s not going to happen, there voices too could have changed possibly for the worst, your best scenario in my opinion would be to let them sing to their own original backing music with Songs that made an impression on the NS Scene in a Cameo situation and most of all Cut them a little Slack

Mick

Hearing acts sing a few songs I don't know irritates me a lot less than when they do the inevitable "take it down!" section i.e. 15 minutes of ad libbing and half hearted audience participation, which most US acts seem to think we like

On of the biggest agents to bring US soul acts over to the UK was Roy Tempest. He went ROGUE in 67 as he could make more money passing unknown groups off (flown over to the UK from New York) as hit groups. This he did for a couple of years & he then got even worse by employing black British singers to masquerade as top US soul singers (one pair going out together as Chuck Jackson & Carla Thomas).

He'd started out bringing over the real artists & running tours for them (Edwin Starr, Garnett Mimms, Rufus Thomas, Ben E King, Billy Stewart, Solomon Burke & more) but 'turned' in mid 67. ANYWAY, he had his own string of UK groups that he'd signed up & it was many of these that were sent on the road to back visiting US acts. He had to shut his Global Promotions & Universal Dancing companies down, but then started up London Attractions till forced out of the business in the early 70's.

One group he'd signed up to back visiting soul singers were the Canadians (unsurprisingly from Canada). They backed quite a few visiting American soul stars. One of their members (who quit the group to join the Warren Davis Monday Band -- he recorded here with them -- was David Foster. He returned to Canada in late 68 & went on to form Skylark (who's singer was Donnie Gerrard). From there he went on to find wide fame in the music biz.

Edited October 3Oct 3 by Roburt

Hi Roburt

Yes as I’ve mentioned before the Canadians backed Chuck Berry at the Cavern Liverpool Circa feb March 1967 they opened the show singing Soul standards of the day with a good rendition of the recent Spencer Davis hit Gimme some Love, they wear of a good standard for a backing band, it was a good intimate show plenty atmosphere

Mick

The first time I saw Edwin he sang Spinning Wheel. Yuck.

On 01/10/2025 at 23:58, Geeselad said:

I certainly remember them doing, 'baby I'm for real ' I've never heard people gasp before when someone sang, it seemed like the whole room did.

I remember Freddie Gorman doing Take Me Back and saying it was the first time he sang it since recording it.

The whole thing was videoed by the BBC but I've never seen it on TV or DVD