I was in the company of a leading , and notable , figure on / of the NS scene at the weekend , and whilst we were consuming several drams during our conversation , one of the subjects broached , was that of demo copies of records , the subject of Frank Wilson came up , and why - when a record company usually pressed up between 2,000 - 3,000 white label / promotion copies of a disc - has there been only two copies seeing the light of day ......

What he told me about the record , was from information substansiated , and disclosed to him from authorative and creditable recording industry insiders and connections, are as follows .....

" DILYIID " was a west coast recording , recorded at Capitol in Los Angeles , and the promotion copies of / for the record were pressed at the Hollywood and Vine set up for the company .....

As stated , promotion copies of a record for a company was usually 2,000 - 3,000 copies : He stated that when Capitol had Pressed 100 copies of the disc , and they had gone through quality control , they presented Berry Gordy with the invoice for payment for that first 100 : he gave them a cheque , which susequently bounced .....

When this happened , Capitol cancelled all further pressings of the disc , and witheld the 100 that they had pressed .....

That 100 discs were put in Capitol warehouse storage , from where they later went missing from .....

Given if this is to be true , then both copies that have surfaced have been from that missing quality controlled ( as is stamped on the label ) batch : so what happened to the other 98 , and why have they not surfaced ? ......

Malc Burton

Something in the back of my mind telling me the second copy came from a worker of the detroit pressing plant where it was pressed????

I thought there were at least 3-4 known copies, plus other unconfirmed copies in hands of US Motown collectors.

Given if this is to be true , then both copies that have surfaced have been from that missing quality controlled ( as is stamped on the label ) batch : so what happened to the other 98 , and why have they not surfaced ? .....

Malc Burton

Perhaps because they realised that the Quality Control guy had a hearing defect and they were, in fact, crap and melted the lot!

I thought there were at least 3-4 known copies, plus other unconfirmed copies in hands of US Motown collectors.

There's a rumour there's one other in this country in the hands of a motown collector who doesn't go to NS events, I also heard years ago there were two copies in the hands of a west coast DJ although I think they would have surfaced by now. Reg Bartlett (think thats his name) was acknowledged to having one of the most complete collections which I was told was bought by Berry Gordy, dunno how true that is.

Who Care's over rated+over played...

One major flaw in this 'story' (and that's what I think it is, a 'story') is that none of the known copies of FW were pressed by Capitol! In fact, there do not seem to be any instances of Capitol pressing 45s for Motown, whose west coast pressings were - I thought - exclusively pressed by Monarch.

I'm pretty sure, too, that DILY was recorded at Gold Star Studios, not Capitol, but I wouldn't like to claim that as a 100% certainty.

to be honest i don't buy this 'there's only 2,3,10 50 etc known copies' of anything, DILY included.

for example, I knew a guy over 30 years ago (lost touch but i could still contact him if i wanted to i guess, sort of a xmas card friend now) who had an excellent collection, dunno exactly what was in it, but i know full well its been in storage for pretty much all that time. it's probably unlikely that he has some of these rarities, but he doesn't know, i don't know and you don't know.

and within the last year i met a guy who has a big record collection who doesn't 'go out' within the scene. Again i don't know what he's got, and i'm not inquisitive or interested enough to ask questions.

I know of another deceased collector whose collection is in storage.

there are loads of stories of stuff beiong hoarded by japanese and other collections

and occassionally things to turn up 'on the scene'

and i bet everyone on here has similar stories, so if only one or two are true!!!!!!!!

etc etc etc

One major flaw in this 'story' (and that's what I think it is, a 'story') is that none of the known copies of FW were pressed by Capitol! In fact, there do not seem to be any instances of Capitol pressing 45s for Motown, whose west coast pressings were - I thought - exclusively pressed by Monarch.

I'm pretty sure, too, that DILY was recorded at Gold Star Studios, not Capitol, but I wouldn't like to claim that as a 100% certainty.

A few Soul releases were distributed by bell in a short-lived distribution deal, maybe that was meant to be one of them - seen loads of copies of things like The Hit Pack with the Bell details blacked out at the bottom of the label

to be honest i don't buy this 'there's only 2,3,10 50 etc known copies' of anything, DILY included.

for example, I knew a guy over 30 years ago (lost touch but i could still contact him if i wanted to i guess, sort of a xmas card friend now) who had an excellent collection, dunno exactly what was in it, but i know full well its been in storage for pretty much all that time. it's probably unlikely that he has some of these rarities, but he doesn't know, i don't know and you don't know.

and within the last year i met a guy who has a big record collection who doesn't 'go out' within the scene. Again i don't know what he's got, and i'm not inquisitive or interested enough to ask questions.

I know of another deceased collector whose collection is in storage.

there are loads of stories of stuff beiong hoarded by japanese and other collections

and occassionally things to turn up 'on the scene'

and i bet everyone on here has similar stories, so if only one or two are true!!!!!!!!

etc etc etc

As I stated in my original post .....

" Given if this is to be true " : I did not imply that it was ......

But the guy whose company I was in , is not usually into bullshipping .....

Malc Burton

Edited July 4, 200717 yr by Malc Burton

to be honest i don't buy this 'there's only 2,3,10 50 etc known copies' of anything, DILY included.

for example, I knew a guy over 30 years ago (lost touch but i could still contact him if i wanted to i guess, sort of a xmas card friend now) who had an excellent collection, dunno exactly what was in it, but i know full well its been in storage for pretty much all that time. it's probably unlikely that he has some of these rarities, but he doesn't know, i don't know and you don't know.

and within the last year i met a guy who has a big record collection who doesn't 'go out' within the scene. Again i don't know what he's got, and i'm not inquisitive or interested enough to ask questions.

I know of another deceased collector whose collection is in storage.

there are loads of stories of stuff beiong hoarded by japanese and other collections

and occassionally things to turn up 'on the scene'

and i bet everyone on here has similar stories, so if only one or two are true!!!!!!!!

etc etc etc

But that's what your opening line says 'known copies' as for your friend not knowing what he has,you not knowing what he has and us not knowing what he has then this must surely come under 'unknown'?

But that's what your opening line says 'known copies' as for your friend not knowing what he has,you not knowing what he has and us not knowing what he has then this must surely come under 'unknown'?

Uh erm - mmm, I think Pete has a point there

A few Soul releases were distributed by bell in a short-lived distribution deal, maybe that was meant to be one of them - seen loads of copies of things like The Hit Pack with the Bell details blacked out at the bottom of the label

I think that this was something to do with the Freeman Brothers record "My Baby", the FBs having also recorded for Bell at around the same time. I think the ones with the distribution details blanked out must have been surplus label stock that Berry Gordy preferred to recycle, rather than throw away.

In any event, I'm sure that no Motown records were actually pressed by Bell, any more than they were by Capitol - unless anyone's seen any injection mould Motown 45s that they can post up to disprove that statement?

I think that this was something to do with the Freeman Brothers record "My Baby", the FBs having also recorded for Bell at around the same time. I think the ones with the distribution details blanked out must have been surplus label stock that Berry Gordy preferred to recycle, rather than throw away.

In any event, I'm sure that no Motown records were actually pressed by Bell, any more than they were by Capitol - unless anyone's seen any injection mould Motown 45s that they can post up to disprove that statement?

Not all Bell pressed records were plastic-labels though...

Not all Bell pressed records were plastic-labels though...

True, but none of the other presing plants that Bell used ever pressed Motown records, either...

Who'se to say the other copies weren't just thrown out? I would have loved tgo have been a bin man in Detroit in the 60s

to be honest i don't buy this 'there's only 2,3,10 50 etc known copies' of anything, DILY included.

for example, I knew a guy over 30 years ago (lost touch but i could still contact him if i wanted to i guess, sort of a xmas card friend now)

if youve lost touch with him, how can you send him a christmas card ???

One major flaw in this 'story' (and that's what I think it is, a 'story') is that none of the known copies of FW were pressed by Capitol! In fact, there do not seem to be any instances of Capitol pressing 45s for Motown, whose west coast pressings were - I thought - exclusively pressed by Monarch.

I'm pretty sure, too, that DILY was recorded at Gold Star Studios, not Capitol, but I wouldn't like to claim that as a 100% certainty.

I agree, Capitol didn't do contract pressing of Motown 45s and you have to note that Capitol's recording studios (if they were used) was a seperate entity to Capitol's pressing plant.

As Tony said, most (or all) west-coast Motown 45s were pressed at Monarch. However, I'm not even sure that "Do I Love You" was pressed on the west coast anyway ...as I don't have a copy and I don't want a copy.

But have I learned anything here? Yes, if Berry Gordy ever offers me a cheque, I'll tell him that I'd prefer cash!

Paul Mooney

I checked into a bed and breakfast with work and the owner use to own a record shop in saffron waldon hes still got 10,000 plus soul... rock n roll stuff from the 60ts in his collection.I mentioned Northern soul he said ive got loads of 6ts American soul records in his collection.Im not saying hes got rareities but how many more folk like him have untapped collections .

I checked into a bed and breakfast with work and the owner use to own a record shop in saffron waldon hes still got 10,000 plus soul... rock n roll stuff from the 60ts in his collection.I mentioned Northern soul he said ive got loads of 6ts American soul records in his collection.Im not saying hes got rareities but how many more folk like him have untapped collections .

Please be careful!

I've heard about a bed and breakfast place where dozens of northern soul fans have gone missing, never to be seen again.

It seems the owner lured them into a dark back room where he claimed to have "boxes full of Frank Wilson demos".

Sadly, none of them realised the danger they were in until it was too late.

They say on some dark and windy nights you can still hear the desperate screams and the buzzing of the chainsaw!

(to be continued...)

(...continued)

It was horrific to hear the desperate screams of those northern soul fans as the chainsaw ripped those Frank Wilson demos to shreds!!!

If Berry Gordy ever offers me a cheque, I'll tell him that I'd prefer cash!

Paul Mooney

What about paypal??

(...continued)

It was horrific to hear the desperate screams of those northern soul fans as the chainsaw ripped those Frank Wilson demos to shreds!!!

...then the nightmare began...released on British due to popular demand, was there no escape from the B&B FROM HELL.......

Edited July 5, 200717 yr by KevH

Please be careful!

I've heard about a bed and breakfast place where dozens of northern soul fans have gone missing, never to be seen again.

It seems the owner lured them into a dark back room where he claimed to have "boxes full of Frank Wilson demos".

Sadly, none of them realised the danger they were in until it was too late.

They say on some dark and windy nights you can still hear the desperate screams and the buzzing of the chainsaw!

(to be continued...)

Who Care's over rated+over played...

You forgot to add the other stock comment "I wouldn't have one given"

Its a good job we are living in the best ever era for northern discoveries so we can continually dismiss past biggies.

You forgot to add the other stock comment "I wouldn't have one given"

Its a good job we are living in the best ever era for northern discoveries so we can continually dismiss past biggies.

Totally agree Brian, it may be totally played out, but compared to many records past & present played under the mantle of Northern or Rare soul, it must be amongst the best. IMHO of course.

Paul

Come on, a record thats changed hands at this much money would warrant a private detective to find other copies if the rumour of their existance was strong enough.

Actually I had not even heard it until one of the last last last final nights at Wigan Casino, where I bought a UK demo in the rush and sold it on the Sunday night at the Windmill Rotherham.

Now I have to make do with a Kev Roberts re-issue that Frank signed in LA.

Cant speak highly enough of Frank as a person though, very friendly, so go easy on the slagging off.

Ed

At the end of the day, there's still only two known copies because no other's have ever surfaced. I thought the story was that Berry Gordy asked Frank if he wanted to be a writer or performer. Frank decided on the latter, and all the copies of DILY were destroyed and BG's orders.

Esther Gordy Edwards, curator of the Motown Museum is said to have a copy, so that's another one that is rumoured but again unproved!

Edited July 6, 200717 yr by timthemod

At the end of the day, there's still only two known copies because no other's have ever surfaced. I thought the story was that Berry Gordy asked Frank if he wanted to be a writer or performer. Frank decided on the latter, and all the copies of DILY were destroyed and BG's orders.

Bllie Jean Brown, curator of the Motown Museum is said to have a copy, so that's another one that is rumoured but again unproved!

Another spanner to throw in the works .....

When I was in Detroit in the early 80s , I visited Esther Gordy Edwards at 2648 WGB , and amongst other topics , I asked her about " DILY" , and the mythology surrounding it .....

She did not recall the record , apologising for her lack of knowledge on / about it , as it would have been one of the many recordings her brother oversaw .....

All she could offer was the information that if there were other copies of the disc , they could have possibly been at the following address , as Motown used this company , and I should check it out with the owner .....

Ray Henderson

Progress Distributors

19025 West 10 Mile Road

Southfield

Michigan

I checked out the phone number I was given several times , but only got the answerphone ......

I tried the number countless times after my return , but again to no avail .....

I still have the piece of paper with the address and phone number EGE wrote the information on ....

Was this the place the others were stored ?

Malc Burton

Edited July 6, 200717 yr by Malc Burton

Sadly, none of them realised the danger they were in until it was too late.

They say on some dark and windy nights you can still hear the desperate screams and the buzzing of the chainsaw!

I stayed there one night. The owner said 'you can either listen to Frank Wilson or lose both legs...'

All the best

Stumpy

I stayed there one night. The owner said 'you can either listen to Frank Wilson or lose both legs...'

All the best

Stumpy

but if there was more copies to be found surely we would all be happy for it.

No matter what people think of the song it is an all time classic