Can anyone help on how to tell the originals from the bootlegs please?

Can anyone help on how to tell the originals from the bootlegs please?

original is styrene stuck on label pale green in colour with a circa rosette dist logo, according to manships guide a vinyl moulded label exists but the jury was still out on whether it was a boot too.

mid 70's boot has no stamp , only theoda 201a in run out groove.

hope this helps

kev

THANKS KEV.The one i've got is the one without the rosette but is bell sound stamped!

Edited May 20, 201015 yr by jonnysoul

Now I've been arguing about this all week with Mick Smith, forgetting the boots there's also the styrene rosette one, and a thick vinyl blue label bellsound stamp one - which in my opinion is dubious and only surfaced in the 80's.

Anyway Chalky (Hitsville) has one in his box, I saw it and looked at it last weekend and I've seen it previously, vinyl, thinner press, obviously very old and been round the block but I can't remember what's in the run off, but it is not the same press as the blue bellsound one I just mentioned. It's a 100% definite 60's original - except Mick won't have it that there's an original vinyl copy. It was also bought in Detroit.

THANKS KEV.The one i've got is the one without the rosette but is bell sound stamped!

I remember Willie from Todd, had a few of the one like yours for sale in the 80s.

The L.A. press with rosette, the Detriot press no rosette with bell sound stamp.

So yours should be ok. The L.A. one is the harder to find.

Dave.

p,s. as far as I know no boots with stamp.

Now I've been arguing about this all week with Mick Smith, forgetting the boots there's also the styrene rosette one, and a thick vinyl blue label bellsound stamp one - which in my opinion is dubious and only surfaced in the 80's.

Anyway Chalky (Hitsville) has one in his box, I saw it and looked at it last weekend and I've seen it previously, vinyl, thinner press, obviously very old and been round the block but I can't remember what's in the run off, but it is not the same press as the blue bellsound one I just mentioned. It's a 100% definite 60's original - except Mick won't have it that there's an original vinyl copy. It was also bought in Detroit.

Hi Pete, I never seen a boot with rosette on, when were they done?

Like I said the bellsound copies no rosette, 1st time I saw them was in the 80s and I was dubious at the time.

Willie had about half a dozen copies for sale at the time. Up to than I had only seen about 4 or 5 real ones (all with rosette).

Anyway I have been told since that they where ok, I think it was Browny (Tim) who told me they were real.

Dave.

Thanks Dave Any idea on price on these?

Hi Pete, I never seen a boot with rosette on, when were they done?

Like I said the bellsound copies no rosette, 1st time I saw them was in the 80s and I was dubious at the time.

Willie had about half a dozen copies for sale at the time. Up to than I had only seen about 4 or 5 real ones (all with rosette).

Anyway I have been told since that they where ok, I think it was Browny (Tim) who told me they were real.

Dave.

I don't mean there's a boot with the rosette Dave, I'm talking about the blue label copies which you mention above.

I can catagorically state that the one Chalky has, which is very pale blue, on vinyl, no rosette, is not an 80's press.

Anyway he might let me buy it off him soon so I'll tell you more then.

Thanks Dave Any idea on price on these?

Maybe £200 plus, but see Pete Smith's post (it might not be real)?

I don't mean there's a boot with the rosette Dave, I'm talking about the blue label copies which you mention above.

I can catagorically state that the one Chalky has, which is very pale blue, on vinyl, no rosette, is not an 80's press.

Anyway he might let me buy it off him soon so I'll tell you more then.

Sorry Pete, I misread your post.

Dave.

Now I've been arguing about this all week with Mick Smith, forgetting the boots there's also the styrene rosette one, and a thick vinyl blue label bellsound stamp one - which in my opinion is dubious and only surfaced in the 80's.

Anyway Chalky (Hitsville) has one in his box, I saw it and looked at it last weekend and I've seen it previously, vinyl, thinner press, obviously very old and been round the block but I can't remember what's in the run off, but it is not the same press as the blue bellsound one I just mentioned. It's a 100% definite 60's original - except Mick won't have it that there's an original vinyl copy. It was also bought in Detroit.

Your right pete Brought this in Detroit and yes Vinyl copy .

the pale blue "bell sound" stamped copies are 60's pressings, very very rare, until a box of new old stock was turned up in the 80's (via tim brown, i think), which sparked the bootleg rumours, if you hold a pale blue one next to a thelma record, emanuel laskey - peace loving man or martha starr - no part time love,for example, and compare the vinyl,, you can clearly see that they are from the same pressing plant, the last time this subject was discussed on here Rod Shard confirmed that he had a pale blue one back in the 70's,

p.s. i sold a pale blue copy last year, if i remember correctly, they also have a "arp" stamp in the deadwax, as well as "bell sound"

Edited May 21, 201015 yr by soulman1964

the pale blue "bell sound" stamped copies are 60's pressings, very very rare, until a box of new old stock was turned up in the 80's (via tim brown, i think), which sparked the bootleg rumours, if you hold a pale blue one next to a thelma record, emanuel laskey - peace loving man or martha starr - no part time love,for example, and compare the vinyl,, you can clearly see that they are from the same pressing plant, the last time this subject was discussed on here Rod Shard confirmed that he had a pale blue one back in the 70's,

p.s. i sold a pale blue copy last year, if i remember correctly, they also have a "arp" stamp in the deadwax, as well as "bell sound"

Noticed thread last night but was waiting to have another look at 45.

Still got pale blue "Bell Sound" copy, with squiggle ARP?

. Got it from a mate in USA who deffo had it in the 70's and probably even earlier than before it was known here.

Without wishing to descend into the collecting lunacy that requires a set square and a protractor I did have a quick look at various Thelma 45s. It's actually thinner vinyl than "Peace lovin' man" and "No part time love.." but about same as Billy Kennedy DJ copy [ maybe reg is different vinyl?]. However they're Nashville stamped and this is Bell but it does look very similar to JJ "lonely no more" which is Bell stamped.

Before completely losing the will to live the vinyl looks and feels 60's to me when compared to random Detroit vinyl presses.What "thick" vinyl means I've no idea.

ROD

Edited May 21, 201015 yr by modernsoulsucks

What "thick" vinyl means I've no idea.

ROD

Thicker vinyl Rod, not thick vinyl, the blue repress is thicker vinyl than the 60's original, that's what I meant.

Anyway, if people acst their minds back and remember the first bootleg (pale green) which came out in 1974/75, it was modelled after the original detroit release, without the rosette.

And just to complicate it more there's a recent pale green boot.

And just to complicate it more there's a recent pale green boot.

And a yellow one! In fact the yellow ones may well be Bell Sound stamped

And a yellow one! In fact the yellow ones may well be Bell Sound stamped

The yellow copies were allegedley legit 2nd presses by the label owner .............& for that reason some dealers were charging £50 ....for a 2nd issue

And just to complicate it more there's a recent pale green boot.

I thought the plae green boot was around in 74/75?

The yellow copies were allegedley legit 2nd presses by the label owner .............& for that reason some dealers were charging £50 ....for a 2nd issue

Some dealers do that which is a total Rip off.

What makes a recently pressed 2nd issue record worth more than £10?

I thought the Gold label Voice reissues at somewhere around £60 was ridiculous!!

Thanks to everyone one for there help am a lot clearer now!!!!

Noticed thread last night but was waiting to have another look at 45.

Still got pale blue "Bell Sound" copy, with squiggle ARP?

. Got it from a mate in USA who deffo had it in the 70's and probably even earlier than before it was known here.

Without wishing to descend into the collecting lunacy that requires a set square and a protractor I did have a quick look at various Thelma 45s. It's actually thinner vinyl than "Peace lovin' man" and "No part time love.." but about same as Billy Kennedy DJ copy [ maybe reg is different vinyl?]. However they're Nashville stamped and this is Bell but it does look very similar to JJ "lonely no more" which is Bell stamped.

Before completely losing the will to live the vinyl looks and feels 60's to me when compared to random Detroit vinyl presses.What "thick" vinyl means I've no idea.

ROD

Hi i have the same copy as Rod pale blue no rosete and bellsound stamped , bought this as an original and never had a reason to doubt it, infact i thought this was the rarer way to own it

Floyd

Hi i have the same copy as Rod pale blue no rosete and bellsound stamped , bought this as an original and never had a reason to doubt it, infact i thought this was the rarer way to own it

Floyd

Ditto and as I'm working my way through the stuff to sell, there will be an original vinyl non rosette coming on the market along with a similar boot. So what prices are we talking about. Surely the boot is worth less than a tenner and the original....£200 or am I way off the mark. Honest answers please and you may get a bargain

Yes, but was the original Detroit copy Hitsville Chalky and Pete had different to the pale blue bell sound stamped vinyl copies?

Cheers

Richard

Is there an alternative cut of this? I seem to remember hearing a version played where the DJ announced that "there were a few more words" at Stafford. I also think that it was played by Dave Evison?

...wasn't this played by Sam..inst..c/u as Butch Baker-'What soul is'...

Well, it looks like there is also a boot with the Circa Rosette on it too.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/201506646877?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D201506646877%26_rdc%3D1

https://www.popsike.com/ANN-PERRY-THATS-THE-WAY-HE-IS-VOC-INST-THEODA-RECORDS-70s-PRESSING/201506646877.html

The font on the lettering looks a bit bolder, and the "A" inside the rosette is a lower case "a" instead of a capitol one.  Otherwise, it looks quite close to the west coast styrene pressing.

If anyone has the Detroit copy with Bell sound stamp, I am stillllllll looking for that one.   Please PM me.  Thanks!

 

I can't help with anything not said on this thread about the original "That's The Way He Is".  I have seen the L.A. CIRCA-distributed issue, and have the '70s boot.  But, I have Ann Perry's other Theoda release, pressed in Detroit in the mid '60s, Theoda 3510, "You Know I Love You"/bw "Our Love Is Over".  It has "T-3510-A etched on the "A" side. and T-3510-B on the "B" side.  In addition, both sides have the "Sheldon" stamp (showing that it was mastered at Sheldon, in Chicago, like so many local Detroit pressing plant issues in the mid '60s).  In addition, it has another stamp, which starts with a Capital "A".  I can't make it out exactly, but, it looks like it might spell "American".  Perhaps it was pressed at American Pressing plant in the suburban Detroit area?  Maybe this information provides a clue as to whether or not the blue Detroit issues were '70s boots or authentic '60s pressings?

Edited January 27, 20169 yr by RobbK

Does anyone know if The J. E. Morgan on Theoda 518 was a legitimate '70s pressing by Theoda Moore, of recordings he had in the can, after finding out that there was a lot of demand in The UK for "That's The Way He Is"?  And, maybe the Blue Detroit pressing was a legitimate re-issue by Moore to feed Northern demand?  The J. E, Morgan just doesn't look like a '60s pressing.

I find it VERY, VERY interesting that a tiny Detroit label's production got pressed and distributed by a fairly small L.A. distributor, and DIDN'T get pressed first in Detroit.  This is almost as shocking as Lee Rogers having a Detroit production released only on a tiny L.A. label (Loadstone).

 

But, that sort of thing was happening even in the 1950s, when The Royal Jokers' Detroit produced cuts were appearing on small L.A. labels like Swing Time and Recorded in Hollywood under bogus group names.

 

4 hours ago, RobbK said:

Does anyone know if The J. E. Morgan on Theoda 518 was a legitimate '70s pressing by Theoda Moore, of recordings he had in the can, after finding out that there was a lot of demand in The UK for "That's The Way He Is"?  And, maybe the Blue Detroit pressing was a legitimate re-issue by Moore to feed Northern demand?  The J. E, Morgan just doesn't look like a '60s pressing.

I find it VERY, VERY interesting that a tiny Detroit label's production got pressed and distributed by a fairly small L.A. distributor, and DIDN'T get pressed first in Detroit.  This is almost as shocking as Lee Rogers having a Detroit production released only on a tiny L.A. label (Loadstone).

 

But, that sort of thing was happening even in the 1950s, when The Royal Jokers' Detroit produced cuts were appearing on small L.A. labels like Swing Time and Recorded in Hollywood under bogus group names.

 

There's another press of the JE Morgan on M.G.S. where his name is spelt JE Morsan.

Edited January 27, 20169 yr by chalky

11 hours ago, RobbK said:

... I find it VERY, VERY interesting that a tiny Detroit label's production got pressed and distributed by a fairly small L.A. distributor, and DIDN'T get pressed first in Detroit.  This is almost as shocking as Lee Rogers having a Detroit production released only on a tiny L.A. label (Loadstone) ...

Robb

Lee Rogers - Love Bandit on Loadstone was also released on Soul Wheel which was a Detroit label and the first release as far as I know.

Apparently, they are different mixes of "Love Bandit" on the two labels. I have both but have never played them to compare ...

Cheers

Richard

13 hours ago, Samson said:

Well, it looks like there is also a boot with the Circa Rosette on it too.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/201506646877?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D201506646877%26_rdc%3D1

https://www.popsike.com/ANN-PERRY-THATS-THE-WAY-HE-IS-VOC-INST-THEODA-RECORDS-70s-PRESSING/201506646877.html

The font on the lettering looks a bit bolder, and the "A" inside the rosette is a lower case "a" instead of a capitol one.  Otherwise, it looks quite close to the west coast styrene pressing.

If anyone has the Detroit copy with Bell sound stamp, I am stillllllll looking for that one.   Please PM me.  Thanks!

 

Won't help you but I sold one a couple of years ago but it was the only one I've ever seen

On 21/05/2010 at 08:05, trev thomas said:

the pale blue "bell sound" stamped copies are 60's pressings, very very rare, until a box of new old stock was turned up in the 80's (via tim brown, i think), which sparked the bootleg rumours,

 

p.s. i sold a pale blue copy last year, if i remember correctly, they also have a "arp" stamp in the deadwax, as well as "bell sound"

I think you're right.   The blue label with the Bell Sound matrix is the 1960's east coast release. The light green label Rosette copies are the 1960's west coast release.

It was a big record in the early to mid 70's and there is a bootleg pressing from that period. 

It was not a big record in the 80's, too many new discoveries still turning up, so I don't know why anyone would of booted it then.

 

Edited January 29, 20169 yr by Guest

I thought the Instrumental was "What Soul Is" by Butch Baker That's what it was first introduced as at the Mecca. If my memory serves me correctly!

Great sound anyway

Paul