A Question About Legal Reissues (70S)

[Steve L]

There were quite a lot of records reissued legally in the 70s as we all know, the phrase "to satisfy demand from the northern scene" is used frequently.

Examples are the small 45 okeh, columbia special products etc etc

I'd like to know how the situation came about for this to happen and how the record companies knew about this demand.

What I'm trying to say is that bootlegs were done by people close to the scene who knew there was demand and there was money to made.

Who would have approached Okeh for example and persuaded them that reissuing a record that was originally a flop 6/7/8 years previously would be a good idea?

Surely these big companies would have no idea of demand in a tiny section of the UK record market?

Are these releases as legitimate as we have been led to believe?

[boba]

this is an interesting question. i hope some of the 70s players share their experiences

[Pete S]

I always thought that people in the Uk approached the record companies. Did Neil Rushton do the deal with Columbia Special Products for instance?

[Pete S]

One brilliant story is Selectadisc asking Kama Sutra via Polydor to do them a repress of Billy Harner's What About The Music, when they arrived they'd accidentally put an instrumental version on so they sent it back...the rest is history...the instrumental version is now worth £1000

[Guest MrC]

I always thought that people in the Uk approached the record companies. Did Neil Rushton do the deal with Columbia Special Products for instance?

That's what I thought too, I'm sure Richard Searling was involved with a lot of the RCA stuff, didn't he work there or something?

[boba]

I always thought that people in the Uk approached the record companies. Did Neil Rushton do the deal with Columbia Special Products for instance?

That makes sense actually, record labels had "special products" divisions to do weird small, or private issues of music -- for example, if you were having a large business conference and wanted to make a custom LP to give away, you would license from the special products division of the label.

[Kegsy]

I would have thought the people from Selectadisc and Global were the

ones to give an accurate answer to this.

kegsy

[Goldsoul]

Throw a few direct questions and I will answer them. First sign of any slagfest against others and......

Kegsy...I'm all yours bro

Edited February 24, 2012 by The Golden 101

[Steve L]

No reason for anything to turn unpleasant Kev, were you involved in working with any of these reissues?

I'm genuinely interested in any info you've got about the era, as a young un it all went over my head at the time

[Goldsoul]

Steve, I love your optimism, but many old timers are genuinely nervous about the usual moronic ambush that takes place by a few. Just look at the Colin Curtis thread!

Anyway, back to the plot. If you care to ask any specific questions, I will do my best to answer.

Let's try and keep individual personalities out of it for legal reasons. OK?

[KevH]

edit.

Edited February 24, 2012 by KevH

[Kegsy]

Steve, I love your optimism, but many old timers are genuinely nervous about the usual moronic ambush that takes place by a few. Just look at the Colin Curtis thread!

Anyway, back to the plot. If you care to ask any specific questions, I will do my best to answer.

Let's try and keep individual personalities out of it for legal reasons. OK?

I think the guy is asking about records that were repressed in the states, not Out Of The Past or that

sort of stuff.

Stuff like small 45 Okehs for example. I.E. records that were ordered from the proper

record companies and pressed in the states for the UK northern scene.

Another example would be the pink issue Carstairs.

Kegsy

Edited February 24, 2012 by Kegsy

[Goldsoul]

I realize that. Any specific question though?

[Kegsy]

I realize that. Any specific question though?

Ok the pink issues of the Carstairs.

Where did they come from ?.

Who instigated getting them pressed up ?.

When ?.

if they weren't legal "No Comment" will do.

Kegsy

Edited February 24, 2012 by Kegsy

[Marktsoulman]

What about the Yum Yums and Eddie Regan? How many of those? They fetch a lot today (well yum yums does)....Great sound quality, looks like they could be legit?

Mark T

[Pete S]

What about the Yum Yums and Eddie Regan? How many of those? They fetch a lot today (well yum yums does)....Great sound quality, looks like they could be legit?

Mark T

Yeah but those are out and out bootlegs, the original poster wanted to know how the legal reissues came about.

As for those two you mentioned, bit of scratching you'd find out where they came from

[Goldsoul]

The thread is degenerating already and it isn't 3 o clock yet!

[Goldsoul]

The pink issues of the Carstairs I assume to be legal. Owner Gene Redd was very active back then.  

The label was eventually sold to Unidisc in Canada, hence the mass availability of the song.

The White Demo lookalikes are boots.

Edited February 24, 2012 by The Golden 101

[Guest MrC]

So,

Who approached RCA, Columbia etc and convinced them there would be a demand for legal reissues of some of their back catalogue of US releases that didn't do too well the 1st time they were released?

Would that conversation have pointed out that there were illegal bootlegs of some records aimed at the same market that were selling quite a few?

Bob mention most majors having a special products division, is this who would have been approached initially to get these legal reissues or was it just a case of somebody who already worked there/knew someone who worked there, managing to get their foot in the door/get their point across that way?

How easy would it been to convince the labels it was a viable proposition?

Was it a case of payments being made upfront for the licensing and 1st quantities of the pressings?

Cheers,

Paul

[Goldsoul]

So,

Who approached RCA, Columbia etc and convinced them there would be a demand for legal reissues of some of their back catalogue of US releases that didn't do too well the 1st time they were released?  

Would that conversation have pointed out that there were illegal bootlegs of some records aimed at the same market that were selling quite a few?

Bob mention most majors having a special products division, is this who would have been approached initially to get these legal reissues or was it just a case of somebody who already worked there/knew someone who worked there, managing to get their foot in the door/get their point across that way?

How easy would it been to convince the labels it was a viable proposition?

Was it a case of payments being made upfront for the licensing and 1st quantities of the pressings?

Cheers,

Paul

If we are talking about RCA UK division, they had a useful Manchester arm that fed intelligence to them. Later Richard Searling became regional sales.Columbia in the 70's had two chunks of releases. The first in 1974 saw Bill Buster owner of Eric, link Selecta Disc to them. The Okeh label was the main focus with Major Lance, Billy Butler etc were reissued with a small 45 number on the label.Later in 1977/78, Simon Soussan persuaded Columbia Special products in LA to re-press for the UK market, Dana Valery, Lou Edwards, Poppies etc. Most were distributed by Inferno. Edited February 24, 2012 by The Golden 101

[Dekka]

Kev

Whats the story with Johnny Taylor - Love on a lease plan - 7s

Is the 7s version (Licensed from Groovesville) the official original 45 (I realise it was released on a Groovesville LP)

I also know there was a boot done under the pseudonym Johnny Burke

The reason I ask, is that I heard it played out at a prestigous nighter last year and I wondered which version the dj would have played

Excuse my ignorance on this matter

dekka

[Goldsoul]

Kev

Whats the story with Johnny Taylor - Love on a lease plan - 7s

Is the 7s version (Licensed from Groovesville) the official original 45 (I realise it was released on a Groovesville LP)

I also know there was a boot done under the pseudonym Johnny Burke

The reason I ask, is that I heard it played out at a prestigous nighter last year and I wondered which version the dj would have played

Excuse my ignorance on this matter

dekka

Don't know too much about it, apart from Martin Koppel secured the rights to Groovesville from Will Davies. A mass of tapes came over with that particular track marked Johnnie Taylor on the tape box.JT had worked at Groovsville, so we put 2+2 together, in the hope of not getting 4 and a half!

[Guest MrC]

If we are talking about RCA UK division, they had a useful Manchester arm that fed intelligence to them. Later Richard Searling became regional sales.Columbia in the 70's had two chunks of releases. The first in 1974 saw Bill Buster owner of Eric, link Selecta Disc to them. The Okeh label was the main focus with Major Lance, Billy Butler etc were reissued with a small 45 number on the label.Later in 1977/78, Simon Soussan persuaded Columbia Special products in LA to re-press for the UK market, Dana Valery, Lou Edwards, Poppies etc. Most were distributed by Inferno.

Thanks Kev.

[Guest allnightandy]

Derek Howe of That Beating Rhythm Manchester !

He used to know most things going on in the scene !

[Steve L]

Anyone got a complete list of all the northern tracks on Columbia Special Products?

Also anymore info to add to this old thread would be appreciated

[Pete S]

Anyone got a complete list of all the northern tracks on Columbia Special Products?

Also anymore info to add to this old thread would be appreciated

 

Off the top of my head, these all came out at the same time.

 

DANA VALERY - YOU DON'T KNOW

VIBRATIONS - CAUSE YOU'RE MINE

POPPIES - THERES A PAIN IN MY HEART

LOU EDWARDS - TALKIN BOUT POOR FOLKS

OTIS BLACKWELL -IT'S ALL OVER ME

FRENCH FRIES - DANSE A LA MUSIQUE

 

the latter four were massive 'big room' plays and the top two giant oldies.

Six months later there were supposed Columbia Special product releases of 

HARRY BETTS - FANTASTIC PLASTIC MACHINE

BOBBY DIAMOND - STOP

but the labels were poor, very basic and I always doubted that these were proper licensed product

[Steve L]

Thanks Pete, I've got a Bobby Diamond and its a different CSP logo design to the others I've got but has a stamped ZSP matrix very similar to Otis Blackwell & French Fries

[Dave Moore]

The other strange quandary about the Okeh reissues was the fact that some were issued in UK on Epic. (Williams and Watson, Sandi Sheldon etc). You would have thought it better business to use the UK option rather then import them from the US manufacturer?

 

I'm not sure as to the relation time wise between the CSP 45s and the Epic ones. (Pete?). Maybe a different advisor or new avenue of int?

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[Rotherham Soul]

Off the top of my head, these all came out at the same time.

 

DANA VALERY - YOU DON'T KNOW

VIBRATIONS - CAUSE YOU'RE MINE

POPPIES - THERES A PAIN IN MY HEART

LOU EDWARDS - TALKIN BOUT POOR FOLKS

OTIS BLACKWELL -IT'S ALL OVER ME

FRENCH FRIES - DANSE A LA MUSIQUE

 

the latter four were massive 'big room' plays and the top two giant oldies.

Six months later there were supposed Columbia Special product releases of 

HARRY BETTS - FANTASTIC PLASTIC MACHINE

BOBBY DIAMOND - STOP

but the labels were poor, very basic and I always doubted that these were proper licensed product

The first batch were interestingly pressed on vinyl but with normal machine stamped matrix (ZTSP I think) the rest were on normal Columbia Styrene

AFAIK Lynne Randell - Stranger In My Arms & Shane Martin - I Need You were among the second batch

I think they were legit because of the correct style of matrix stamps

Edited April 2, 2013 by rotherham soul

[Pete S]

The first batch were interestingly pressed on vinyl but with normal machine stamped matrix (ZTSP I think) the rest were on normal Columbia Styrene

AFAIK Lynne Randell - Stranger In My Arms & Shane Martin - I Need You were among the second batch

I think they were legit because of the correct style of matrix stamps

 

You're right, how could I forget those...

[Pete S]

The other strange quandary about the Okeh reissues was the fact that some were issued in UK on Epic. (Williams and Watson, Sandi Sheldon etc). You would have thought it better business to use the UK option rather then import them from the US manufacturer?

 

I'm not sure as to the relation time wise between the CSP 45s and the Epic ones. (Pete?). Maybe a different advisor or new avenue of int?

 

Regards,

 

Dave

 

Two year gap Dave, they re-assessed the Okeh material and put out a couple of compilation albums and a handful of 45's, that was in 1976, the Okeh small 45 releases came out 73-74 time.

[Godzilla]

Off the top of my head, these all came out at the same time.

 

DANA VALERY - YOU DON'T KNOW

VIBRATIONS - CAUSE YOU'RE MINE

POPPIES - THERES A PAIN IN MY HEART

LOU EDWARDS - TALKIN BOUT POOR FOLKS

OTIS BLACKWELL -IT'S ALL OVER ME

FRENCH FRIES - DANSE A LA MUSIQUE

 

the latter four were massive 'big room' plays and the top two giant oldies.

Six months later there were supposed Columbia Special product releases of 

HARRY BETTS - FANTASTIC PLASTIC MACHINE

BOBBY DIAMOND - STOP

but the labels were poor, very basic and I always doubted that these were proper licensed product

 

 

The first batch were interestingly pressed on vinyl but with normal machine stamped matrix (ZTSP I think) the rest were on normal Columbia Styrene

AFAIK Lynne Randell - Stranger In My Arms & Shane Martin - I Need You were among the second batch

I think they were legit because of the correct style of matrix stamps

 

Taj Mahal - Ain't That a Lot of Love was also done as one of the later, poor quality label releases

[Steve L]

CSP

DANA VALERY - YOU DON'T KNOW

VIBRATIONS - CAUSE YOU'RE MINE

POPPIES - THERES A PAIN IN MY HEART

LOU EDWARDS - TALKIN BOUT POOR FOLKS

OTIS BLACKWELL -IT'S ALL OVER ME

FRENCH FRIES - DANSE A LA MUSIQUE

 

HARRY BETTS - FANTASTIC PLASTIC MACHINE

BOBBY DIAMOND - STOP

SHANE MARTIN - I NEED YOU

LYNNE RANDELL - STRANGER IN MY ARMS

TAL MAHAL - AINT THAT A LOT OF LOVE

any more?

Edited April 2, 2013 by Steve L

[Godzilla]

CSP

DANA VALERY - YOU DON'T KNOW

VIBRATIONS - CAUSE YOU'RE MINE

POPPIES - THERES A PAIN IN MY HEART

LOU EDWARDS - TALKIN BOUT POOR FOLKS

OTIS BLACKWELL -IT'S ALL OVER ME

FRENCH FRIES - DANSE A LA MUSIQUE

 

HARRY BETTS - FANTASTIC PLASTIC MACHINE

BOBBY DIAMOND - STOP

SHANE MARTIN - I NEED YOU

LYNNE RANDELL - STRANGER IN MY ARMS

 

any more?

Yeah - see above

[Dave Moore]

Two year gap Dave, they re-assessed the Okeh material and put out a couple of compilation albums and a handful of 45's, that was in 1976, the Okeh small 45 releases came out 73-74 time.

Weren't the CSP and The Epic ones around the same time though Pete? Just seems strange to go with UK for some and US with others when it's all the same company. I'm not too well up on all this so there may well be a perfectly good reason mind.

Regards,

Dave

[Steve L]

The first batch were interestingly pressed on vinyl but with normal machine stamped matrix (ZTSP I think) the rest were on normal Columbia Styrene

AFAIK Lynne Randell - Stranger In My Arms & Shane Martin - I Need You were among the second batch

I think they were legit because of the correct style of matrix stamps

 

My Poppies is styrene

[Pete S]

My Poppies is styrene

 

Thats a kind of reissue of a reissue, and to confuse matters, there's also one with a picture of the girls as the label on red vinyl

[Pete S]

Weren't the CSP and The Epic ones around the same time though Pete? Just seems strange to go with UK for some and US with others when it's all the same company. I'm not too well up on all this so there may well be a perfectly good reason mind.

Regards,

Dave

 

I don't think it is the same company though Dave, Okeh must have been totally separate to Epic and Columbia where the other reissue tracks came from?

[Rotherham Soul]

Styrene

 

Edited April 2, 2013 by rotherham soul

[Rotherham Soul]

Vinyl

[Steve L]

My styrene one is the black lettering curved logo

[Sebastian]

I don't think it is the same company though Dave, Okeh must have been totally separate to Epic and Columbia where the other reissue tracks came from?

 

Columbia owned Okeh since the mid-1920's.

[Pete S]

Columbia owned Okeh since the mid-1920's.

 

I know but they owned them but as all the releases on CSP were either from Epic or Columbia, Okeh was obviously kept separate, which is what I was trying to say.  At the time that the CSP 45's were done though, there were very few Okeh records being played, the only two "newies" were Major Harris and Ken Williams and those were barely played after 1975, so thats probably why no Okeh 45's were issued on CSP.

[Dave Moore]

I know but they owned them but as all the releases on CSP were either from Epic or Columbia, Okeh was obviously kept separate, which is what I was trying to say.  At the time that the CSP 45's were done though, there were very few Okeh records being played, the only two "newies" were Major Harris and Ken Williams and those were barely played after 1975, so thats probably why no Okeh 45's were issued on CSP.

Yep, quite possibly. Or even the UK "talking heads? of the time recommending keeping the Okeh stuff separate due to the label's more credible "reputation" with UK soul fans. Both Epic and Okeh were separate businesses from Columbia with their own staff and budgets, albeit owned by the same conglomerate.

Regards,

Dave

[Rich B]

As some big labels had had minor hits in the early 70's by re issuing records due to 'northern' demand (and ABC had a number one with the Tams) followed by the success of the Pye disco demand label, you might have thought that most enterprising record companies would naturally have been looking to exploit their own back catalogue one way or another.

 

Epic had reissued things like TD Valentine, Nancy Ames and a couple of Poppies tracks long before the Columbia Special Project releases There must have been some corporate collaboration there you would think. RCA had repressed Dean Courtney, Lorraine Chandler etc during '74 and early '75.

 

And after Black Music started doing all those 'Strange world of northern soul' articles the commercial potential was there for all to see.

[Ian Dewhirst]

I always thought that people in the Uk approached the record companies. Did Neil Rushton do the deal with Columbia Special Products for instance?

 

Yep. Neil approached U.S. Columbia Special Projects direct I believe.

 

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

So,

Who approached RCA, Columbia etc and convinced them there would be a demand for legal reissues of some of their back catalogue of US releases that didn't do too well the 1st time they were released?

Would that conversation have pointed out that there were illegal bootlegs of some records aimed at the same market that were selling quite a few?

Bob mention most majors having a special products division, is this who would have been approached initially to get these legal reissues or was it just a case of somebody who already worked there/knew someone who worked there, managing to get their foot in the door/get their point across that way?

How easy would it been to convince the labels it was a viable proposition?

Was it a case of payments being made upfront for the licensing and 1st quantities of the pressings?

Cheers,

Paul

 

There was a relatively healthy interest in Northern Soul from the UK record companies at the time. There'd been a stream of UK Top 40 hits with Northern records including a No.1 with the Tams and a No.3 with R. Dean Taylor plus other hits from Rodger Collins, the Exciters and, ahem, Wigan's Chosen Few, so the UK companies were receptive to doing some relatively cheap reissues from their own back catalogues. Plus some of us were plugged in to different companies - Ian Levine with Pye via Dave Macaleer, Richard Searling as a promotion guy for RCA and me as a promotion guy for Decca. Hence the Pye Disco Demand series, the UK RCA reissues and the UK Cameo/London and Brunswick reissues.

 

I actually got congratulary phone calls when the Yvonne Baker/Bobby Paris reissue flirted with the bottom of the Top 100 and again when Adam's Apples got on the Capital 'C' list LOL....

 

Ian D

[Pete S]

As some big labels had had minor hits in the early 70's by re issuing records due to 'northern' demand (and ABC had a number one with the Tams) followed by the success of the Pye disco demand label, you might have thought that most enterprising record companies would naturally have been looking to exploit their own back catalogue one way or another.

 

Epic had reissued things like TD Valentine, Nancy Ames and a couple of Poppies tracks long before the Columbia Special Project releases There must have been some corporate collaboration there you would think. RCA had repressed Dean Courtney, Lorraine Chandler etc during '74 and early '75.

 

And after Black Music started doing all those 'Strange world of northern soul' articles the commercial potential was there for all to see.

 

Practically ever UK major (and minor) label issued Northern Soul 45's during the boom years of 74 to 76.  I actually listed all of them once!

[Guest The Record Box]

Yeah but those are out and out bootlegs, the original poster wanted to know how the legal reissues came about.

As for those two you mentioned, bit of scratching you'd find out where they came from

We know where these came from!!

[Chris L]

Off the top of my head, these all came out at the same time.

 

DANA VALERY - YOU DON'T KNOW

VIBRATIONS - CAUSE YOU'RE MINE

POPPIES - THERES A PAIN IN MY HEART

LOU EDWARDS - TALKIN BOUT POOR FOLKS

OTIS BLACKWELL -IT'S ALL OVER ME

FRENCH FRIES - DANSE A LA MUSIQUE

 

the latter four were massive 'big room' plays and the top two giant oldies.

Six months later there were supposed Columbia Special product releases of 

HARRY BETTS - FANTASTIC PLASTIC MACHINE

BOBBY DIAMOND - STOP

but the labels were poor, very basic and I always doubted that these were proper licensed product

 

 

Taj Mahal - A lot of love

Lynne Randell - Stranger in my arms

Shane Martin - I need you

Edited April 3, 2013 by Chris L