Is This Ethical

[Steve G]

Didn't know its name was Gavin thats a bit worrying

Didn't think his name was Gavin either....

Hello,

These things are negotiable but here are some common examples:

On a multi-artist compilation album, an artist might only have one track out of a total of 24 tracks (for example) so they will earn 1/24th of the total royalties for that particular album. Obviously, they won't get rich but if the album sells four thousand copies they'll probably earn between £250 and £300 (each artist) or a higher amount paid in advance.

On a single-artist album, however, the artist receives 100% share of royalties and could typically make over £6,000 on sales of four thousand copies.

Paul Mooney

Serious question are any reissue CD's selling anything like 4,000 copies?

[Steve G]

The legal position from the contents of a record label is not an accurate/complete summary of the law, but it is the case that anyone playing their records in a club is technically in breach of the relevant legislation. Unless in a private not for profit club.

Back to the original point of the thread though - regardless of whoever owns the "rights" to the music, to me recording a set without someone's knowledge in the way described does not sound ethically correct either - two wrongs don't make a right in the new world do they?

[Chalky]

Have a look round the side of a UK 45 label and here's what it says-

"THE RIGHTS OF THE MANUFACTURER AND OF THE OWNER OF THE RECORDED WORK RESERVED. UNAUTHORISED PUBLIC PERFORMANCE BROADCASTING AND COPYING OF THIS RECORD PROHIBITED"

Paul's already given the inner workings of that.

don't all records (recorded or released in UK) go into the public domain after 50 years? court case/judicial review of some sort in progres now I think. Longer in other countires, summat like 90 years in US. Only 25 in Hoilland though

[Guest Stuart T]

don't all records (recorded or released in UK) go into the public domain after 50 years? court case/judicial review of some sort in progres now I think. Longer in other countires, summat like 90 years in US. Only 25 in Hoilland though

Yes, isn't Sir Cliff whingeing that he won't get any more royalties for Living Doll (if he got a fiver he has got too much, and did he pay anyone to do that cover version of the Lord's Prayer)? 25 years in Belgium isn't it? EU rules should result in all the periods converging, think the relevant EU directive is already in place and has to be complied with soon, so perhaps some stuff not copyrighted in Belgium now will go back into copyright.

[Chalky]

Yes, isn't Sir Cliff whingeing that he won't get any more royalties for Living Doll (if he got a fiver he has got too much, and did he pay anyone to do that cover version of the Lord's Prayer)? 25 years in Belgium isn't it? EU rules should result in all the periods converging, think the relevant EU directive is already in place and has to be complied with soon, so perhaps some stuff not copyrighted in Belgium now will go back into copyright.

sure it's 25 years in Holland. Some so called pressings done there so I'm told

[FrankM]

According to Phonographic Performance limited

"When is a PPL Public Performance

licence required?

Under UK copyright law (the Copyright

Designs and Patents Act 1988) a PPL licence

is required when sound recordings subject to

our control are played in public. By 'public' we

mean any event except a family or domestic

gathering. An event such as an office party, a

Christmas disco or a Valentine's Day dinner

dance is public. An example of a private event

would be a wedding reception or birthday

party. Many people ask, "If it's my CD, why

can't I play it whenever and wherever I want?"

Owning a sound recording does not give them

an automatic right to play it in public."

All venues should have a PPL license if music is played.

The Copyright on recordings in Europe is Fifty years .Do not believe what you read about Marginal, or any other dodgy european re issue companies.

Cliff is lucky enough to have renoegotiated his contract early on. Plenty of his contemparies recieve FA royalties due to the contract they signed. Lonnie Donegan got a session fee for Rock ilsand Line a hit in the UK and the US.

I am sure the record companies are paying Cliff to act as their mouthpiece. If a seventy year old rocker still has records and acetates he recorded as a twenty year old he can at the moment make his own CD comilation write up his own sleeve notes add personal photographs and release it on any label that will have him and earn himself some money. And as long as he he pays the song publishers it's all perfectly legal.

Here's Courtney Love's take on who the real music pirates are.

https://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000.../index.html

[Guest Paul]

Serious question are any reissue CD's selling anything like 4,000 copies?

Hello Steve,

Sales figures differ enormously so some soul albums struggle to sell more than 1,000 copies while others sell many thousands.

When we (Millbrand) receive mechanical royalty income or licensing royalties we get sales fugures or in some cases we at least get manufacturing quantities.

Sales in general are down at the moment but some albums still do very well, especially the mid-price and budget compilations which end up in the supermarket chains. Some of those albums have sold over 30,000 copies.

More specialist albums (at full-price) generally sell less, and I have to respect commercial confidentiality, but it's well known that some of the 'Dave Godin Deep Soul Treasures' albums have sold pretty close to 10,000 copies so far.

Grapevine's George Jackson, Phillip Mitchell and Masqueraders albums have done okay (over 3,000 each and still selling) but some others seem to peak just below 2,000 copies.

On the other hand there are some albums which probably don't even sell 1,000 copies.

I hope this helps.

Paul Mooney

wwww.millbrand.com

[Steve G]

Hello Steve,

Sales figures differ enormously so some soul albums struggle to sell more than 1,000 copies while others sell many thousands.

When we (Millbrand) receive mechanical royalty income or licensing royalties we get sales fugures or in some cases we at least get manufacturing quantities.

Sales in general are down at the moment but some albums still do very well, especially the mid-price and budget compilations which end up in the supermarket chains. Some of those albums have sold over 30,000 copies.

More specialist albums (at full-price) generally sell less, and I have to respect commercial confidentiality, but it's well known that some of the 'Dave Godin Deep Soul Treasures' albums have sold pretty close to 10,000 copies so far.

Grapevine's George Jackson, Phillip Mitchell and Masqueraders albums have done okay (over 3,000 each and still selling) but some others seem to peak just below 2,000 copies.

On the other hand there are some albums which probably don't even sell 1,000 copies.

I hope this helps.

Paul Mooney

wwww.millbrand.com

Cheers and interesting stuff Paul.

[Guest]

I reckon this has been a great thread. It's exploded one or two myths, put the record straight on a few things and given a few people something to think about....... and shown one or two idiots up !

[Guest Dodger]

Back to the original point of the thread though - regardless of whoever owns the "rights" to the music, to me recording a set without someone's knowledge in the way described does not sound ethically correct either - two wrongs don't make a right in the new world do they?

To my mind, real world ethics only comes into it if the set is recorded and an individual track is separated, cut onto vinyl/CD or whatever and then sold on to make money for the person or persons who plainly have no right to profit for all the reasons discussed.

Otherwise I don't see where real world ethics comes into it because at worst all the 'recorder' is doing by their Robin Hood-like actions is denting the ego of the 'recordee' and taking away the exclusivity on some of this music that plainly drives certain echelons of the soul scene, so it's more akin to the issue of 'honour amongst thieves' or in this case 'honour amongst collectors' rather than actual ethics.

I'm quite sure that if somebody recorded one of the 'big lads' sets and booted their latest biggie/cover up onto a seven and made 250 copies available, there would be a considerable number of people on the soul scene pleased about the fact they could possess some kind of copy for their own enjoyment, as opposed to the relatively small number of DJs, collectors and associates who take it upon themselves to attempt to uphold some of the mythical 'laws' that abound in order to protect their own patch.

[Guest]

Good post Rog - says it all.

[Guest]

ethics !!!!!!!!

what about this .

sabotaging events then when succeded, promote the same event !!!!!!!!

their is only one person who has destroyed northern soul

and that is CROASDALE. with his 60s r & b shit

wake up and smell the coffe

[Dave Rimmer]

wake up and smell the coffe

What's coffe ?

[John Al]

What's coffe ?

He's the United Nations bloke innit Dave?

[Guest in town Mikey]

ethics !!!!!!!!

what about this .

sabotaging events then when succeded, promote the same event !!!!!!!!

their is only one person who has destroyed northern soul

and that is CROASDALE. with his 60s r & b shit

wake up and smell the coffe

I do hope that wasnt you choking on your coffe......e

As for destroying. Its still alive and kicking as far as I can see. But thanks for the input.

[Guest Stuart T]

ethics !!!!!!!!

what about this .

sabotaging events then when succeded, promote the same event !!!!!!!!

their is only one person who has destroyed northern soul

and that is CROASDALE. with his 60s r & b shit

wake up and smell the coffe

Yes, its all Ady's fault with his clippedy clop music like the unissued Magicians track or that awful Torture thing, instead we could all be dancing to the wonderful 4 Vandals instead. Joyously uplifted to a man, woman and child (in a man's body).

Is that you Gavin?

[Guest]

thought this site was for soul talk

not school teachers correcting spelling mistakes ,

not to worry it wont be long before i am censord and croasdale and his cronnies

will lead you all astray with his correct spelling,

it 3 years since the rocket . and you still talk about it

GET A LIFE

[Soulsmith]

ethics !!!!!!!!

what about this .

sabotaging events then when succeded, promote the same event !!!!!!!!

their is only one person who has destroyed northern soul

and that is CROASDALE. with his 60s r & b shit

wake up and smell the coffe

Does Ian Levine really need a side kick?

Is it ethical to print your thoughts under such a pseudonym?

Col.

[Guest]

I do hope that wasnt you choking on your coffe......e

As for destroying. Its still alive and kicking as far as I can see. But thanks for the input.

NOT AS WE KNOW IT

Does Ian Levine really need a side kick?

Is it ethical to print your thoughts under such a pseudonym?

Col.

CAN POST UNDER MY NAME WHICH IS GAVIN STEARN

so I have to revert to low life tactics lol

[Guest]

Yes, its all Ady's fault with his clippedy clop music like the unissued Magicians track or that awful Torture thing, instead we could all be dancing to the wonderful 4 Vandals instead. Joyously uplifted to a man, woman and child (in a man's body).

Is that you Gavin?

4 vandals sold more copies than the kent cd which had the magiicains track on

so yes it must be a better record ,

[Pete S]

Does Ian Levine really need a side kick?

Is it ethical to print your thoughts under such a pseudonym?

Col.

If you cast your mind back Gavin was booted off a while back for expressing his opinions under his real name so he has obviously had to use another name.

I bet his posts are removed from this thread.

I guess he taped the sets at the Rocket more or less in revenge for certain people sabotaging the event when it was originally set up. Whether you think thats pathetic is neither here nor there, but so what...he hasn't killed anyone for Gods sake.

It would be nice to actually see someone else putting their point of view. I like Gavin a lot anyway, he would be very interesting to have around on here.

[Guest in town Mikey]

thought this site was for soul talk

it is 3 years since the rocket . and you still talk about it

GET A LIFE

yep. Only yesterday I posted how I was one of the lucky few to see the Orlons at the Rocket.

Imagine if Ady had promoted it. They'd have had a crowd worthy of their respect IMO.

[Guest Baz]

ethics !!!!!!!!

what about this .

sabotaging events then when succeded, promote the same event !!!!!!!!

their is only one person who has destroyed northern soul

and that is CROASDALE. with his 60s r & b shit

wake up and smell the coffe

Funnyest post ever! thats why the 100 club is celebrating its 26th year

Does Ian Levine really need a side kick?

Is that the political correct way of saying arse bandit

[Guest Stuart T]

I'm sure that the last Bros record (I forget the title but you probably have that one don't you Gavin?) sold more copies than that Kent CD but that doesn't make it a better record.

Oh, and in a follow up to Pete, as long as Gavin isn't abusive I think he shouldn't be booted off, as long as he doesn't send me any vaguely threatening emails again. The big girl's blouse.

[Guest]

If you cast your mind back Gavin was booted off a while back for expressing his opinions under his real name so he has obviously had to use another name.

I bet his posts are removed from this thread.

I guess he taped the sets at the Rocket more or less in revenge for certain people sabotaging the event when it was originally set up. Whether you think thats pathetic is neither here nor there, but so what...he hasn't killed anyone for Gods sake.

It would be nice to actually see someone else putting their point of view. I like Gavin a lot anyway, he would be very interesting to have around on here.

thanks Pete

but it wont be long before i am censord again, the sheep will always be sheep .

what makes me laugh is that how can a voice upon a music genre be censord unless

it has some damaging truths to tell !!!!!!

[Pete S]

Oh, and in a follow up to Pete, as long as Gavin isn't abusive I think he shouldn't be booted off, as long as he doesn't send me any vaguely threatening emails again. The big girl's blouse.

I'm going to start sending you vaguely threatening emails soon :angry:

[Guest in town Mikey]

If you cast your mind back Gavin was booted off a while back for expressing his opinions under his real name so he has obviously had to use another name.

I bet his posts are removed from this thread.

I guess he taped the sets at the Rocket more or less in revenge for certain people sabotaging the event when it was originally set up. Whether you think thats pathetic is neither here nor there, but so what...he hasn't killed anyone for Gods sake.

It would be nice to actually see someone else putting their point of view. I like Gavin a lot anyway, he would be very interesting to have around on here.

Pete. As someone caught up right smack in the middle ie, mates with Kevin and Paul (Rocket promoters), and Ady. There was no sabotaging of the event. people voted with their feet/money and chose not to attend an event that included Ian. That came as a direct result of some actions by Ian and on his behalf.

I can guarantee the was no meetings upstairs in the Parkway Tavern where London's Soul police mapped out the venues the foot soldiers could or could not attend. The punters made their own minds up. Which is one of the positives of a free market I guess.

But this is just raking up old wounds.

Maybe if there were no accusations, a reasonable debate could be held. Rather than just coming on here and accusing someone of killing Northern Soul! That is IMO a bit playground.

[Pete S]

thanks Pete

but it wont be long before i am censord again, the sheep will always be sheep .

what makes me laugh is that how can a voice upon a music genre be censord unless

it has some damaging truths to tell !!!!!!

Well if you come on shouting about Ady Croasdel you have to have something to back it up with mate otherwise it looks like you are just slagging people off for no reason.

[Guest Stuart T]

Baaa! Baaa! I am so lucky that the sheep dog didn't herd me to the Rocket when it was packed full of Levinees (they're like the Ovaltinees but with a worse song).

I'm going to start sending you vaguely threatening emails soon :angry:

[Guest ShaneH]

please play nicely boys

i will have a chat with mike regarding some of the matters above. until then the thread will stay open unless someone ruins it.

cheers

Shane

[Pete S]

Pete. As someone caught up right smack in the middle ie, mates with Kevin and Paul (Rocket promoters), and Ady. There was no sabotaging of the event. people voted with their feet/money and chose not to attend an event that included Ian. That came as a direct result of some actions by Ian and on his behalf.

Mikey it's a bit naieve to say there was no sabotage when there was a shocking campaign against Ian Levine by the rest of London's promoters. With Levine going hand in hand with The Rocket, it was bound to have a knock on effect. And remember they organised a nighter for the sole purpose of clashing with The Rocket. Or did that never happen?

Post office?????

[Guest Stuart T]

please play nicely boys

i will have a chat with mike regarding some of the matters above. until then the thread will stay open unless someone ruins it.

cheers

Shane

We always do.

[Guest in town Mikey]

please play nicely boys

i will have a chat with mike regarding some of the matters above. until then the thread will stay open unless someone ruins it.

cheers

Shane

Come on mate.

The thread instead of reaching it's conclusion, as it just about had done. It will now be an all weekender with about 20K views and over 1000 posts now.

LSK has given the thread a second wind. I say let it blow, let it blow, let it blow.

[Guest Stuart T]

Post office?????

Its a fair cop. Sorry. Will do it tomorrow if I get up early enough.

As for the other bit, fair enough the night was organise dthe same night, hence someone trying to stitch the venue on licensing. All very naughty but Crossfire rammed, Rocket erm, not...

[Pete S]

I blame Thatcher. :angry:

Stuart, it's not me nagging you, it's the people I sold copies to 4 months ago that keep asking me where they are

[Guest Stuart T]

I blame Thatcher. :angry:

Stuart, it's not me nagging you, it's the people I sold copies to 4 months ago that keep asking me where they are

Tut! Tut!

[Guest in town Mikey]

Mikey it's a bit naieve to say there was no sabotage when there was a shocking campaign against Ian Levine by the rest of London's promoters. With Levine going hand in hand with The Rocket, it was bound to have a knock on effect. And remember they organised a nighter for the sole purpose of clashing with The Rocket. Or did that never happen?

Absolutely Didnt happen.

Some scumbag got the licence pulled (Allegedly)

As for the campaign. There were arguements galore, but it was 99.999% the fault of one person. And I assure you I a little stick for supporting the event, both by attending and by including it in the listing we did. But never did any of the London protagonists threatened or insulted by Ian, EVER tell me not to go. In fact I met one outside (I think it may be the one who had the death threat), where he was handing out flyers. He shook my hand and said have a good night. That doesnt sound like someone organising mass blockades or whatever.

Edited April 21, 2006 by in town Mikey

[Guest]

lets face the truth

northern soul in london is a No No .

As Tim Brown recently stated that the 100 club is more like the attendance than the street number

so you enjoy your self tonight with the 20 people that will go to your event !!!!!!!!!

perhaps take some photos and put them up so everybody can see how much fun you have lol

[Pete S]

[Guest]

Its a fair cop. Sorry. Will do it tomorrow if I get up early enough.

As for the other bit, fair enough the night was organise dthe same night, hence someone trying to stitch the venue on licensing. All very naughty but Crossfire rammed, Rocket erm, not...

the crossfire STILL does not have a allnite liencence , hence the need to advertise after partys,

THEY NEVER HAD OR WILL GET A ALL NITE LIECENCE ,

[Guest Stuart T]

lets face the truth

northern soul in london is a No No .

As Tim Brown recently stated that the 100 club is more like the attendance than the street number

so you enjoy your self tonight with the 20 people that will go to your event !!!!!!!!!

perhaps take some photos and put them up so everybody can see how much fun you have lol

Cripes, only 20? We had more per square foot than the Rocket last time, did you not see the photos? But I'd better take all those northern soul records out of my box eh? I wonder what I did with my clippedy clop 78s?

Is that a caricature of you as well?

[Guest]

And remember they organised a nighter for the sole purpose of clashing with The Rocket. Or did that never happen?

Post office?????

If it did,someone should have told me,i would have gone there instead ,attended them all,all of them crap!!,as Phil D said the warm was better,and they where crap too!!.................. i think we should tryout a pole,Carla Thomas v Four Vandels

[Guest in town Mikey]

Cripes, only 20? We had more per square foot than the Rocket last time, did you not see the photos? But I'd better take all those northern soul records out of my box eh? I wonder what I did with my clippedy clop 78s?

Is that a caricature of you as well?

OOOHH UUURRGGGHH I just had a picture in my head of Stu in Ugg boots.

[Simsy]

lets face the truth

northern soul in london is a No No .

As Tim Brown recently stated that the 100 club is more like the attendance than the street number

so you enjoy your self tonight with the 20 people that will go to your event !!!!!!!!!

perhaps take some photos and put them up so everybody can see how much fun you have lol

What a load of cobblers :angry:

If the attendance is so poor at the 100 Club, then how come it's the longest running nighter of all time?

[Guest]

Cripes, only 20? We had more per square foot than the Rocket last time,

Well thats not hard , when you only have a 8ft square dance floor compard to 160m2 of rocket dance floor.

rocket had 400 in last time KR promoted it and failed, if you get 4 in tonight Stuart you will be on this list telling everyone what a great and soul full nite you had !!!!!!!!!

boys will be boys

[Guest]

If it did,someone should have told me,i would have gone there instead ,attended them all,all of them crap!!,as Phil D said the warm was better,and they where crap too!!.................. i think we should tryout a pole,Carla Thomas v Four Vandels

if they were all bad then WHY DID YOU KEEP GOING ?

If you bang you head agaist the wall one day you might relise that it hurts,

thats is if you have a brain

[Pete S]

What a load of cobblers :angry:

If the attendance is so poor at the 100 Club, then how come it's the longest running nighter of all time?

Wigan was only getting 3 or 400 for the last year mate...

[Simsy]

Wigan was only getting 3 or 400 for the last year mate...

It's not dying out there, trust me. Think it's 27 years this summer.

[Guest Stuart T]

Well thats not hard , when you only have a 8ft square dance floor compard to 160m2 of rocket dance floor.

rocket had 400 in last time KR promoted it and failed, if you get 4 in tonight Stuart you will be on this list telling everyone what a great and soul full nite you had !!!!!!!!!

boys will be boys

--------------------------------------

If we only get 4 in that means that one of the DJs hasn't turned up!

[Pete S]

Well thats not hard , when you only have a 8ft square dance floor compard to 160m2 of rocket dance floor.

rocket had 400 in last time KR promoted it and failed, if you get 4 in tonight Stuart you will be on this list telling everyone what a great and soul full nite you had !!!!!!!!!

boys will be boys

--------------------------------------

If we only get 4 in that means that one of the DJs hasn't turned up!

I'd come if it wasn't in London.