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Robin Thicke V Marvin Gaye: Jack Ashford Has His Say

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  • Garethx
    Garethx

    Essentially, yes they should.   I'm astounded that people should disagree with this judgement in the spirit or the letter. Being on the receiving end of someone 'borrowing' your idea

  • Chalky
    Chalky

    It was Thicke and Williams who sued Gaye's family apparently although the jury weren't allowed to know this.  I'm glad they lost

  • Stateside
    Stateside

    I have to say that when I first heard Robin Thicke's record the first thing I thought was that they had sampled Marvin Gaye.   Kev

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A ridiculous decision in my view. The floodgates for a gazillion other 'pastiches' are probably being planned now. How many people have used the Four Tops "I Can't Help Myself" as a template over the last 50 years?

 

Ian D  :D

 

A fair point Ian, but it clearly is a rip of the song, and they must have known it. Why didn't they just sort a royalty payment upfront and all sorted, then everyones a winner. Ego and greed maybe?

Legally and musically a wasn't a direct copy though Gareth (I had musicians go through them both note for note). It was a 'pastiche' for want of a better word which, up to yesterday, wasn't illegal. Now it is

Ian D :D

No it isn't as a jury verdict does not set any legal precedent.

Quite ironic some of the comments about Curtis Mayfield being infringed.  I think he is the greatest and most talented single figure in Soul music - writer, guitarist, producer, singer, performer and social commentator.... yet he was accused of plagiarism of 'This Old Heart Of Mine' with 'Can't Satisfy' and agreed to adding the Motown writer to the credits (and royalties) - HDH & S Moy. 

 

I always though the most strange case like this was that of John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival - his old record company Fantasy sued him for ripping of his own song !  Saul Zaentz who owned Fantasy and the copyright to 'Run Through The Jungle' claimed that Fogerty's new song 'The Old Man Down The Road' was just a re-work with new lyrics.  Fogerty eventually won but had to fight for his costs - because Fantasy's claim was not considered to be 'frivolous na in bad faith'!!!  Interesting that the album also contained a track about  Zaentz titled 'Mr Greed' and another song sang of 'Zaentz can't dance but he'll steal your money!!'    As evidence Fogerty took the witness stand with guitar in hand to explain that yes, the two songs may have sounded somewhat similar, but they were both variations on his signature “swamp rock” style. Simply put, of course two John Fogerty songs sounded the same.

You have a very good point and obviously it's difficult to argue, that yes, of course, Williams and Thicke were appropriating the overall vibe of "Got To Give It Up". Had I been in their shoes, I'd have been upfront with the Gaye estate and offered 'em 25% of a guaranteed bonanza and I'm pretty sure that everyone would have been just fine. But Pharrell and Robin didn't do that. They recorded and released the track under what they believed was the U.S. copyright law at the time. and they just got called on it. And, unbelievably LOST!

 

Personally I don't think they infringed Marvin's copyright and neither would any other musician who knows what is at stake here. I can only re-iterate the article that someone posted to me earlier and which Steve G kindly posted above. If you haven't already read it, then I strongly suggest you do if you care about artistic expression and freedom. The precedent that this ruling sets, will effectively put all future recordings in breach of previous copyrights one way or another. It's all up for grabs now and that will stifle creativity.

 

https://joebennett.net/2014/02/01/did-robin-thicke-steal-a-song-from-marvin-gaye/

 

I'm not arguing that Pharrell and Robin didn't appropriate the whole vibe and feel of "Got To Give It Up" which they obviously did but I am arguing that "Blurred Lines" is NOT the same song by any means, especially the ones listed in the link above. 

 

We could do a whole thread on Northern Soul songs which have appropriated previously released songs. How many law suits could Holland-Dozier-Holland bring for "I Can't Help Myself"? The list is endless. 

 

This will go to appeal and the appeal will be upheld I believe. If, by some quirk of fate, this current decision is upheld, then it will bring 50 years of law suits and do nothing but make the lawyers rich. You read it here first.  :thumbsup:

 

Ian D  :D

 

But what about the fact that some of us thought it was actually using Got To Give It Up?  People who know the original version and have done since it came out.  When I first heard that coming out of the radio I thought it was Got To Give It Up.  Not one of Marvin's finest moments by any means, incidentally.

how bout this for a lawsuit?

 

 

 

Would have though the writers of So Is The Sun would have sued for The Jam using the chorus on Trans Global Unity Express or whatever it was called..never heard anything as blatant

 

Quite ironic some of the comments about Curtis Mayfield being infringed.  I think he is the greatest and most talented single figure in Soul music - writer, guitarist, producer, singer, performer and social commentator.... yet he was accused of plagiarism of 'This Old Heart Of Mine' with 'Can't Satisfy' and agreed to adding the Motown writer to the credits (and royalties) - HDH & S Moy. 

 

 

 

Well said that man.

A ridiculous decision in my view. The floodgates for a gazillion other 'pastiches' are probably being planned now. How many people have used the Four Tops "I Can't Help Myself" as a template over the last 50 years?

 

Ian D  :D

 

This is gonna be a bonanza for the lawyers, expect ads on soul source from law

firms wanting to use the in depth knowledge on here to identify and initiate claims. 

 

They will have a field day with Larry Atkins/Ty Karim not to mention

all the vocal versions of This Beautiful Place . I know these

examples were probably legit at the time, but will the lawyers know that ?

Edited by Kegsy

Given that we have had sixty years worth of soul music, I would have thought it was almost impossible to come up with a genuine original groove that sounds nothing at all like anything that had been marketed before, Well certainly that is acceptable to the human air. The variations within musical instruments  and song phrasing may be vast but sooner rather than later there is a saturation point. And that my friends is were we are now.

 

My point entirely. There's enough examples on this thread alone to keep the lawyers busy for the next year. I would almost defy anyone to make a record that doesn't infringe on a previous recording. It's almost impossible.

 

Ian D  :D

This is gonna be a bonanza for the lawyers, expect ads on soul source from law

firms wanting to use the in depth knowledge on here to identify and initiate claims. 

 

They will have a field day with Larry Atkins/Ty Karim not to mention

all the vocal versions of This Beautiful Place . I know these

examples were probably legit at the time, but will the lawyers know that ?

 

Yep. I've taken two calls already. F*ckin' ridiculous.......

 

Ian D  :D

Yep. I've taken two calls already. F*ckin' ridiculous.......

 

Ian D  :D

 

Just imagine how many calls other people, who really know their stuff, are getting  :D  :D

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I reckon a suit between MFSB and all the other Phil. Int. artists is in the pipeline.  :thumbsup:

This is gonna be a bonanza for the lawyers, expect ads on soul source from law

firms wanting to use the in depth knowledge on here to identify and initiate claims. 

 

They will have a field day with Larry Atkins/Ty Karim not to mention

all the vocal versions of This Beautiful Place . I know these

examples were probably legit at the time, but will the lawyers know that ?

 

As an aside I was once asked by a company to supply/suggest tracks that could be sampled.  They did it properly, fully 

licenced and all that and paid me if I suggested anything that became a hit.  I never followed it through  :huh:

Edited by chalky

As an aside I was once asked by a company to supply/suggest tracks that could be sampled.  They did it properly, fully 

licenced and all that and paid me if I suggested anything that became a hit.  I never followed it through  :huh:

 

Not this one by any chance Chalky......?

 

 

Ian D  :D

Not this one by any chance Chalky......?

 

 

Ian D  :D

 

It would be around te time that came out that whichever company it was got in touch......

As it happens we saw them perform that live for the first time at a Coca Cola/Eddie Stobart junket a few years ago - despite being very drunk we immediately turned to each other and went 'LANDSLIDE' - it was also much more apparent in the backing in the live delivery. They CAN actually sing REALLY well.

Dx

Edited by DaveNPete

Marvin rip-off all day long IMO........what I thought was the worst part of the whole business was the fake emotion by the Gaye family........Oscars have finished lovies!

 

 

I hear Ray Davis has been on the phone to Philip Kinnora!  :rolleyes:

Edited by Guest

I always thought they did the infamous unrated video of Blurred Lines in an attempt to distract from the blatant plagiarism they had perpetrated.  :lol:

The two songs are totally different so I can't see what the fuss is about. Marvin's song is distinctive and a well known disco classic. Pharrell's song is feeble, bland and forgettable despite making loadsamoney. The lawyers are the only people who've gained anything, but that's what they're in it for, nothing to do with justice.

The two songs are totally different so I can't see what the fuss is about. Marvin's song is distinctive and a well known disco classic. Pharrell's song is feeble, bland and forgettable despite making loadsamoney. The lawyers are the only people who've gained anything, but that's what they're in it for, nothing to do with justice.

 

Yep and now a 'vibe' is copyrightable. A joke....

 

Ian D  :D

On the positive, the ambulance chasing accident claims - 'have you fell off the top of Blackpool Tower and got a scratch' type of advertisements being replaced by "Have you had your copyright infringed" where the adverts are accompanied with some nice soulful tunes to emphise the possible rip offs.

Would have though the writers of So Is The Sun would have sued for The Jam using the chorus on Trans Global Unity Express or whatever it was called..never heard anything as blatant

 

 

Funny you should mention this. We have a couple of fanatical Jam fans in the office and when I was playing the World Column from Disc 6 of "The Odyssey: A Northern Soul Time-Capsule" they both came over and asked what it was! 

 

Nothing is sacred anymore.....

 

Ian D  :D

Taj Mahal and Bobby Womack got nothing from Rod Stewart for nicking two licks and sticking them together - he gave it to charity ]

Artist was Jorge Ben, not Taj Mahal. The song is called 'Taj Mahal'.

Artist was Jorge Ben, not Taj Mahal. The song is called 'Taj Mahal'.

Oops! Senior moment.

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Oops! Senior moment.

 

Unacceptable on this forum. Member should go to the back of the class immediately. Thank you for your co-operation.

 

Ian D   :D

how bout this for a lawsuit?

 

 

 

I think it's closer to this:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4Xb-4v2kuo

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