Catacombs stamped records

[Happy Feet]

Not sure if this as been covered before ,but does anyone else have any , how many where there and for what reason where they stamped ? , I picked this one up on eBay and the guy who sold it didn't know either , wasn't very much money but albeit a reissue/bootleg a nice bit of nostalgia from the era .

[Winsford Soul]

10 minutes ago, Happy Feet said:

Not sure if this as been covered before ,but does anyone else have any , how many where there and for what reason where they stamped ? , I picked this one up on eBay and the guy who sold it didn't know either , wasn't very much money but albeit a reissue/bootleg a nice bit of nostalgia from the era .

Dave. Hope your well my friend. 

I had a Mary Love. Lay this burden down.  Vocal / instrumental on the same blue / turquoise colour label  but can't remember if it had the cats stamp on it. Obviously from the same bootleggers though 

Someone on here will know the origins

Ste

Edited September 26, 2021 by Winsford Soul

[Happy Feet]

Cheers Ste ,have pm'd mate 

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 26/09/2021 at 17:30, Happy Feet said:

Cheers Ste ,have pm'd mate 

This may be of no help, but mentions some of the people who "may" know and Ted Massey might ?

https://bethanackerley.com/2019/01/14/the-death-of-the-cats-northern-soul-wolverhampton-catacombs/

[Chris Turnbull]

Very decent article and photos as well 

[Mal C]

oh wow, that is a great article... stuff like this is priceless...

"the club served orange squash by the pint and boasted a fire escape made of wood".

Pete Smith would know, or Mick Smith, but they never come on here any more, maybe somebody can reach out to them on FB...?

Mal

Edited September 28, 2021 by Mal C

[Blackpoolsoul]

43 minutes ago, Mal C said:

oh wow, that is a great article... stuff like this is priceless...

"the club served orange squash by the pint and boasted a fire escape made of wood".

Pete Smith would know, or Mick Smith, but they never come on here any more, maybe somebody can reach out to them on FB...?

Mal

Discogs have the record as 1976 and the club ran until 1975 ? 

Also it says a Simon Soussan "legit" re-issue (there's a thing to behold.....imagine)

Edited September 28, 2021 by Blackpoolsoul

[Soulstu]

6 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

This may be of no help, but mentions some of the people who "may" know and Ted Massey might ?

https://bethanackerley.com/2019/01/14/the-death-of-the-cats-northern-soul-wolverhampton-catacombs/

That's a fantastic article. Although the Cats is known (up to a point) by those of us who never went or were too young, and we know it broke and popularised some incredible tunes, it's high time it was elevated right up to the status of the other 'legendary' clubs. More memories from those who went please....and playlists... and more info on these stamped records - was that an identifier for records that were kept at the club, just like some of the records that were played at the Wheel?

Edited September 28, 2021 by Soulstu

[Stillsoulin]

i went to the catacombs a few times, heady days indeed, i always assumed people knew of the importance of the club in the history of our music, probably because im from the midlands tho, i have a freddie chavez they,ll never know why boot with the catacombs stamp on, never let it go purely cos of that, i cant recall if i bought it at the club or not, i also still have my catacombs membership card tucked away with all my other membership cards from those times, it surly was an atmospheric place to go and the write up does it justice, i can remember the fire escape stairs as we used to pile out onto it to cool down before hitting the dancefloor again, remember breakaway and saxie russell were the big records with our crowd that spring to mind, twas a long time ago tho but a number of friendships made there, basil, dave krinski and dave allan to name a few, glad to say i,m still in touch with some.

rob h

[Happy Feet]

4 hours ago, Stillsoulin said:

i went to the catacombs a few times, heady days indeed, i always assumed people knew of the importance of the club in the history of our music, probably because im from the midlands tho, i have a freddie chavez they,ll never know why boot with the catacombs stamp on, never let it go purely cos of that, i cant recall if i bought it at the club or not, i also still have my catacombs membership card tucked away with all my other membership cards from those times, it surly was an atmospheric place to go and the write up does it justice, i can remember the fire escape stairs as we used to pile out onto it to cool down before hitting the dancefloor again, remember breakaway and saxie russell were the big records with our crowd that spring to mind, twas a long time ago tho but a number of friendships made there, basil, dave krinski and dave allan to name a few, glad to say i,m still in touch with some.

rob h

Hi Rob h, very interesting response and another stamped record too ,does your Freddie Chevez have a number , could they possibly have been given away on the last night ?

I got to know Max and have many mates over the years that frequently went , but no one ever mentioned stamps on records or even as some clubs did back of the hand in the early years .

I do agree that the theory of the stamps being an identifier for records kept at the club is possible , a collective shared DJ box especially if space was tight ,pure guess work I might add .

 

 

[Bo Diddley]

Pep is a member of the site, I'm sure he would know for sure.

@Pep

Cheers,

Bod

[Blackpoolsoul]

I have tied in to this thread to get some more help

8 hours ago, Happy Feet said:

Hi Rob h, very interesting response and another stamped record too ,does your Freddie Chevez have a number , could they possibly have been given away on the last night ?

I got to know Max and have many mates over the years that frequently went , but no one ever mentioned stamps on records or even as some clubs did back of the hand in the early years .

I do agree that the theory of the stamps being an identifier for records kept at the club is possible , a collective shared DJ box especially if space was tight ,pure guess work I might add .

 

 

 

[Stillsoulin]

hi happyfeet,   no there is no number with the stamp, over the years i just assumed that it came from someone that had something to do with the club, cant remember a record stall as such, just record boxes although memory a little hazy, Swoz has penned his name on the record too, he came from wolverhampton so i may have bought it from him, i just kept it as a keepsake of those times.

               rob h

 

[Tagtag]

I have a green stock copy of The Voice box - "I Want It Back" - Loma, purchased from Blue Max at his shop in Wednesfield Circa 1982. It also has the Catacombs stamp on both sides. No other writing on the labels. I don't recall any explanation from Max as to why the stamp was there. I just bought it as it is a great dancer.

[Pep]

On 29/09/2021 at 03:06, Blackpoolsoul said:

I have tied in to this thread to get some more help

 

Whilst that list is correct inasmuch he did bring copies of all back from the States, no way were they always the first copies. 

Of that list, only Dena Barnes, Saxie Russell and Epitome Of Sounds were new finds by Graham although two had already been played prior off Acetate. 

For example The Hesitations was introduced by Mike Hollis in 1970. I had the Velours and Bob Relf off Soussan, Jimmy Conwell and Bobby Treetop off Koppel, Glories and Otis Smith off the Harlow boys. Etc. 

Sam & Kitty, Roy Hamilton, Johnny Moore, Four Larks were Blackpool Mecca firsts. 

Johnny Caswell, Salvadors, others to several DJs by John Anderson RIP.

[Pep]

On 28/09/2021 at 20:11, Bo Diddley said:

Pep is a member of the site, I'm sure he would know for sure.

@Pep

Cheers,

Bod

The rubber stamp was I understand taken from (or given by) the Club on the last night. Not sure where it went, but the stamp was probably applied to records in a private collection after the Cats closed, so have no real historical importance. 

There may well have been more than one rubber stamp too, as they were used as passouts in those days. 

I don't recall any 'free record' type promotions at the Club in the time I was a Saturday resident DJ, 1972 - 1974 (when it closed).

Hope that helps. 

[Mal C]

that's a shame Pep, it was such a lovely stamp, its almost criminal to find out it has no real historical importance that said, that list of first plays is great info for folks of my age, they are all oldies but that history is now getting scewed a bit isnt it,  It's great to hear from somebody who knows first hand

I'm from the midlands but born in 69, so the Old Vic is the club I went to in Wolverhampton... so outside of yourself and Blue Max, who would have been Cats DJs that were spinning at the old vic?

Great thread...

Edited October 6, 2021 by Mal C

[Happy Feet]

3 hours ago, Pep said:

The rubber stamp was I understand taken from (or given by) the Club on the last night. Not sure where it went, but the stamp was probably applied to records in a private collection after the Cats closed, so have no real historical importance. 

There may well have been more than one rubber stamp too, as they were used as passouts in those days. 

I don't recall any 'free record' type promotions at the Club in the time I was a Saturday resident DJ, 1972 - 1974 (when it closed).

Hope that helps. 

Thanks Pep , I did wonder if the stamp was a " Pass Out " as was used at most venues .

So it's looking more like a broken up private collection stamped and numbered possibly , after or during the life of the Cats , only the person responsible would know and we might never know , but there's at least 16 more out there ( possibly ) somewhere .

 

[purist]

• That stamp and the pad with it ended up in Max's shop, perhaps that's misleading, that stamp was in the shop for years including the time I worked in there (my memory is rubbish with dates these days) The sign was also there, and from time to time folk bought Max various bits of stuff and memorabilia liberated from the club.
  I'd ask Eddie Swoz if you want more info

[Pep]

6 hours ago, Mal C said:

that's a shame Pep, it was such a lovely stamp, its almost criminal to find out it has no real historical importance that said, that list of first plays is great info for folks of my age, they are all oldies but that history is now getting scewed a bit isnt it,  It's great to hear from somebody who knows first hand

I'm from the midlands but born in 69, so the Old Vic is the club I went to in Wolverhampton... so outside of yourself and Blue Max, who would have been Cats DJs that were spinning at the old vic?

Great thread...

Hi Mal, 

Perhaps I was wrong to say it has no historical importance, as it surely has - as a great piece of Catacombs memorabilia. The physical rubber/metal stamp most certainly has, and may well be unique. 

The significance of its appearance on the records is a different matter as it was almost certainly applied after the Cats closed in July 1974. 

Ran the Old Vic on a few occasions, in the 70s, very early 80s, and extremely successfully between 1986 - 1990. 

Great memories. x 

[Torch56]

With regard to what records were played at which venue first the thing I find most frustrating is the lack of dates given with claims. Here are my memories of some of the records referred to by Pep and when, and in some instances where, they were played.

Four Larks

Alan S was playing a Tower issue of this in the early months of 1972.

Roy Hamilton.

I heard talk of this through the summer of '72 but it wasn't played at the Catacombs until September and the re-opening after the Astra refurbishment. Alan Day had it at Up the Junction (Crewe) where I first heard it on August 5th. It was one of the top sounds of that era that you knew on first hearing merited its exalted status. The black RCA issue with Nipper and the phonograph, meant the record looked great as well. I think the orange reissue came out shortly afterwards which led to it being dropped from shortlists before the autumn was out.

The Velours.

Pep brought a demo of this to the Catacombs on a Wednesday night in the summer of '73. The bass led intro, the bells and the soaring chorus prompted instantaneous appeal and two plays that night, which was very unusual for the Cats. The following Saturday the record was accompanied by the mass handclapping of the assembled throng and its iconic status was assured. The other version by Frankie Valli became the version to play by the time Wigan opened in September, but it is but a pale imitation, to my ears at least

Bob Relf.

This was huge. For a couple of weeks, around July '73, this was the most popular record played at the Cats, and that's some accolade when you think of the array of top sounds that graced the decks at that time. Again, a record with a section where the instrumentation is stripped right back and the hand clappers fill the void.

Sam and Kitty

As I recall, around October/November Graham Warr came back from the States from one of his trips and there was a sudden influx of new sounds. George Carrow, The Glories, Johnny Moore, Earl Jackson Soul Twins, among others. Sam and Kitty was one of these and, I must admit for the first few plays I was unimpressed. It didn't stand out particularly but it was a staple item in any DJ set. However, thirty miles north of the Cats in Hose Street, Tunstall, dancefloor reaction was much more enthusiastic. I first went to The Torch in December 1972 and noted that four records stood out in terms of dance floor reaction. Eddie Parker was way out at number 1, but Sam and Kitty, along with The Shakers and The Triumphs, Walking the Duck, all warranted the rush to the dance floor. An impressive sight if you were looking on from the balcony.

Dena Barnes, The Epitome of Sound.

I remember these from the dog days of The Cats in June/ July 1974. Attendances had plummeted since Wigan had opened and the last night was only a couple of weeks away. These were two records that stood out at that time and it is fitting, given the news this week, that I recall a conversation I had with Smokie when I just bumped into him in the town, by St Peter's Gardens. I asked what current sounds met his favour and he referred to these two. A discerning choice with which I could only agree.

[Whiskyagogo]

Great thread, thanks.

Am I dreaming thinking I went to a Cats allnighter in 72?

Edited October 7, 2021 by Whiskyagogo
I found out it was 74

[Colsoul]

Went  to the cats in November 73 travelled down from Bishop Auckland, I remember a guy i think his name was froggy along with pep, we got in early and recorded the first spot the sounds played come thick and fast playing just a snippit of most of the records but remember the laws of love , still a fave to this day, it was chocker block, We later went to the casino getting there at 4 in the morning, T he sunday nite went to Chesterlee  st Co Durham to the  sombrero club Frank Elson was checking it out, Col

[Pep]

11 hours ago, Torch56 said:

With regard to what records were played at which venue first the thing I find most frustrating is the lack of dates given with claims. Here are my memories of some of the records referred to by Pep and when, and in some instances where, they were played.

Four Larks

Alan S was playing a Tower issue of this in the early months of 1972.

Roy Hamilton.

I heard talk of this through the summer of '72 but it wasn't played at the Catacombs until September and the re-opening after the Astra refurbishment. Alan Day had it at Up the Junction (Crewe) where I first heard it on August 5th. It was one of the top sounds of that era that you knew on first hearing merited its exalted status. The black RCA issue with Nipper and the phonograph, meant the record looked great as well. I think the orange reissue came out shortly afterwards which led to it being dropped from shortlists before the autumn was out.

The Velours.

Pep brought a demo of this to the Catacombs on a Wednesday night in the summer of '73. The bass led intro, the bells and the soaring chorus prompted instantaneous appeal and two plays that night, which was very unusual for the Cats. The following Saturday the record was accompanied by the mass handclapping of the assembled throng and its iconic status was assured. The other version by Frankie Valli became the version to play by the time Wigan opened in September, but it is but a pale imitation, to my ears at least

Bob Relf.

This was huge. For a couple of weeks, around July '73, this was the most popular record played at the Cats, and that's some accolade when you think of the array of top sounds that graced the decks at that time. Again, a record with a section where the instrumentation is stripped right back and the hand clappers fill the void.

Sam and Kitty

As I recall, around October/November Graham Warr came back from the States from one of his trips and there was a sudden influx of new sounds. George Carrow, The Glories, Johnny Moore, Earl Jackson Soul Twins, among others. Sam and Kitty was one of these and, I must admit for the first few plays I was unimpressed. It didn't stand out particularly but it was a staple item in any DJ set. However, thirty miles north of the Cats in Hose Street, Tunstall, dancefloor reaction was much more enthusiastic. I first went to The Torch in December 1972 and noted that four records stood out in terms of dance floor reaction. Eddie Parker was way out at number 1, but Sam and Kitty, along with The Shakers and The Triumphs, Walking the Duck, all warranted the rush to the dance floor. An impressive sight if you were looking on from the balcony.

Dena Barnes, The Epitome of Sound.

I remember these from the dog days of The Cats in June/ July 1974. Attendances had plummeted since Wigan had opened and the last night was only a couple of weeks away. These were two records that stood out at that time and it is fitting, given the news this week, that I recall a conversation I had with Smokie when I just bumped into him in the town, by St Peter's Gardens. I asked what current sounds met his favour and he referred to these two. A discerning choice with which I could only agree.

Not exactly how it was. I helped out at Crewe UTJ in April/May and didn't hear Alan or anyone else play it then, although it was huge later at the Torch and a little later at the Cats/everywhere. Previously played by Tony Jebb at Blackpool as was Earl Jackson and Johnny Moore which Simon Soussan found a copy of and listed at £25 on his infamous first list from Leeds. 

I had a lot of good stuff off him when he moved to L.A. including that first Velours, in the spring of 73. Also had a Johnny Moore and the first Bob Relf, a yellow first issue, just after he moved to the States, early 73. It was a big spin throughout the year, but several had turned up by the summer after it appeared to be custom re-issued on orange Transamerican by Soussan. I subsequently had a huge number of firsts off Simon, which enabled me to establish myself as a DJ through 1973 and beyond. Almost nobody else was willing to deal with him after his dishonest antics while in Leeds. First Vel-Vets, Tempos spring to mind. 

The Junction Crewe didn't survive long in the wake of the Torch opening, and I didn't go again after June 72, preferring the Torch. 

Graham brought a few firsts  back, but in the main brought additional copies of existing biggies. Sam & Kitty was most certainly a Mecca first. I remember the night Keith Minshull bought it for big money and playing it multiple times. Graham had one for sale and I remember going with him and Alan Smith to the Torch one cold December night to try and sell it. We went back to his house after the Cats to sort his sales box out. He had a (then) unique 'Rush Reservice' promo of George Carrow which we all discussed on the journey. Not the first copy by a long way. 

I had the very first Glories and second Duke Browner off my friend Nigel Martin from Harlow. He was originally from Stourbridge and we went to the same school. I lent it to Alan S to play a couple of times at the Cats but the Cats DJs wouldn't pay my price so I sold it to Keith Minshull, along with the Duke Browner. This was before I started DJing at the Cats, when I just imported/found and sold records. I also indirectly had the first Otis Smith off Nigel which he told me to watch out for and buy after he lost it when he got rolled outside the Torch in mid-72. I subsequently saw it in a sales box and bought it 'blind' then immediately took it to Keith Minshull to play, which he did. It was a floorfiller after the third play that night. 

After starting to deal properly with Martin Koppel in early summer 1972, I bought multiple copies of Eddie Parker LYB, Soul Twins, Jimmy S. Clarke, etc etc which made me a good living selling at (mainly) the Torch. Known big records which were easy to sell. I had the first copy of Eddie Parker (Gone) and "To Much" (sic) off him along with another Duke Browner, Whispers and Joe Matthews (Beauty Queen). I bought the first Bobby Treetop (Wait) off him when he visited me at home in Stourbridge in early 73. Graham did find the other Bobby Treetop though. Full credit for that, and Dena Barnes, Saxie Russell and Epitome Of Sound. The first original copies of those. He also found Ann Perry and Buster & Eddie which I ended up with. Not sure why those aren't highlighted? 

There's a lot more similar history. Too much for this comment. 

 

 

[Happy Feet]

19 hours ago, purist said:

• That stamp and the pad with it ended up in Max's shop, perhaps that's misleading, that stamp was in the shop for years including the time I worked in there (my memory is rubbish with dates these days) The sign was also there, and from time to time folk bought Max various bits of stuff and memorabilia liberated from the club.
  I'd ask Eddie Swoz if you want more info

Thanks Purist , it's not something that hadn't crossed my mind , and only one person has said so far they bought a record from Max stamped from the shop, but no mention why.

The guy I bought it from was a Cat's regular but couldn't remember when purchased or where , he had a huge collection of northern but only the one stamped but was very sentimental about letting it go , he was selling up to save his family the hassle " as he was getting on " his words not mine and I had it and a hundred or so other records all classics from the era ,too many to mention here ,but my question is did Max stamp any for punters in the shop for regulars or Cats followers maybe , the one I have is a post Cats release so maybe also one from " Millwards" but with the official Cats stamp.

Anyway thanks for bringing this info , I hope there's more to come .

[Chris Turnbull]

Great thread and info, thanks - love all the detail 

[Paul R]

Reading through this it suggests that Epitome Of Sound was known prior to Soussans pitched up "Moses Smith" version, which would have been mid 74 when it hit the Casino.

 

Paul

[Chris Turnbull]

3 hours ago, Paul R said:

Reading through this it suggests that Epitome Of Sound was known prior to Soussans pitched up "Moses Smith" version, which would have been mid 74 when it hit the Casino.

 

Paul

Didn't know about that - was it booted at the time?

[Paul R]

42 minutes ago, Chris Turnbull said:

Didn't know about that - was it booted at the time?

Booted on turquoise Sandbag if I remember correctly with the same track both sides.

[Blackpoolsoul]

1974 live here ( it has been posted years ago)

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Blackpoolsoul

[Tagtag]

Can anyone tell me what the one but last track is on this?

It's the track just before Eddie & Ernie starts at about1:09:50 after June Edwards.

Cheers, Carl

[Torch56]

Whiskyagogo may well have attended an all-nighter at the Catacombs in 1972. At least, he may have attended the venue on the understanding that that was the case. Unfortunately, what was supposed to be an all night session was cut short around 2a.m. and the attendees were informed that the night's entertainment was at an end. It was a decidedly abrupt end to proceedings, made more surreal by there being no official announcement that I can recall; the music just stopped and the news was simply passed around by word of mouth. As people gathered around the bar area, wondering what was going on, the news percolated through that the police had suspended the night because no all night licence had been applied for nor, obviously, granted. Whilst assimilating this unfortunate turn of events, I fell into conversation with Brian, a Cats regular at this time. He postulated a much more unusual theory, which, unlikely though it may seem, was much more interesting.

Just adjacent to the Catacombs was Our Lady of Mercy Convent and according to Brian, there had been a complaint from the aforementioned convent about the noise, and that had been the reason why the night's jollification was suspended. Of course the two theories were not mutually exclusive. On reflection both seem pretty unlikely, but there must have been some reason. The non-application of licence theory seems the most likely, though I must admit that the mental picture of the Mother Superior on the landline to Red Lion Street, and giving the West Midlands Constabulary some grief, would not be amiss in an Ealing comedy, and is a much better tale. It's at least as likely as Chris Burton's story about the horse in the stable next to The Torch not being able to sleep as being one of the reasons The Torch closed down.

Before the premature cessation of the event, the night was going well. Attendance was significantly higher than usual Saturday numbers, and it was clear that many had travelled on the understanding that the grey light of dawn would greet them on Temple Street at 8a.m. or thereabouts. Unfortunately that was not the case, and so July 13th, 1974 was destined to become the only all-nighter in the club's history.

The playlist was of the era, as I remember, so, Sandi Sheldon, Too Late, Little Richard, Johnny Sayles, Mamie Galore, and others of that ilk, would all have likely been played. Two that were definitely played, and I remember specifically, were Free for All and Love, Love, Love. Both got multiple plays and prompted enthusiastic dance floor reaction. Philip Mitchell had just come out on Jay Boy and was being hammered at that time. Bobby Hebb was really taking off in terms of popularity and Alan S's blue UK Phillips issue on the deck signalled an even more frenzied response.

As for a date for the nighter that never was. Well, Free For All was released on February 18th, so it was obviously after that. I'd guess towards the end of February or, maybe, early March. Unless, you know different.

Having read just about everything that's ever been written about The Catacombs, I have not come across any reference to this event but hopefully this will stir the memories of others from that era.

Of course, when it comes to attention to an all night event at the Cats, one night stands alone in terms of significance and attention. But that is another story. 

Not sure of the date of the picture below, but that's Brian in the brown suit.

[Winsford Soul]

Is that a young  Smokie wearing the glasses in the picture ?

[Torch56]

Now that you mention it...I can see where you're coming from, but, no.

[Ady Potts]

On 07/10/2021 at 10:58, Pep said:

...........I had a lot of good stuff off him when he moved to L.A. including that first Velours, in the spring of 73. Also had a Johnny Moore and the first Bob Relf, a yellow first issue, just after he moved to the States, early 73. It was a big spin throughout the year, but several had turned up by the summer after it appeared to be custom re-issued on orange Transamerican by Soussan..............

 

 

Really enjoyed this thread.

Found this post by Pep interesting. We had a thread about the Bob Relf back in 2007 & this answers a few questions raised back then.

[John Benson]

On 07/10/2021 at 10:58, Pep said:

 

I had the very first Glories and second Duke Browner off my friend Nigel Martin from Harlow. He was originally from Stourbridge and we went to the same school. I lent it to Alan S to play a couple of times at the Cats but the Cats DJs wouldn't pay my price so I sold it to Keith Minshull, along with the Duke Browner.

 

 

Maybe just a coincidence, but in early 1974 I bought a Duke Browner from Keith, it wasn't all that long after those dark red bootlegs appeared, so I assumed he was just getting rid of his copy (as they did in those days).

I wonder if that was the same copy Pep sold him?

If so, I still have it after all those years! 

[Tagtag]

On 08/10/2021 at 06:10, Blackpoolsoul said:

1974 live here ( it has been posted years ago)

 

Sorry to ask again but this one is driving me mad.

Can anyone tell me what the last but one track is on this?

It's the track just before Eddie & Ernie, it starts at about1:09:48 just after June Edwards.

Cheers, Carl

[Davlee]

The Herbs on Smoke (Question)

 

[Tagtag]

Hallelujah!

Thanks, seen it loads of times, never heard it.

Cheers, Carl

[Davlee]

used to be a cheapie...