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Eddie Parker....Love you Baby


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Prob been done before but looking for latest info on the legit issues of this confusing record on Ashford.Basically i know of ones with Large Archer Stamp,,,,Small Archer Stamp,,,No stamp but corrrect 3 Ws marks...French Googa Mooga,,,,Canadian Stone.

Which one would be ok to play out at a non bootleg venue

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Even stamped Archer demo or issue would be perfect but not the uneven Archer stamped bootleg. The WME stamped records are legitimate second issues. The WME was scribed by Warren McCleallan Evans who cut the lacquer in a Nashville studio. Manship Price Guide #7 rates Archer and WME stamped records with three figure values but these are well out of date by now. True Archer stamped records are rare whilst WME records are more plentiful suggesting they were the bulk order produced in Nashville. As of yet, exact dates of the Archer pressed records in Detroit are not known - neither are the exact dates of the Nashville WME discs. It is universally assumed that the Archer pressed records came first for the local Detroit market with the Nashville records coming later for a more national distribution. Given the shortage of first edition Archer records, DJ’s would be advised to spin the WME variant as it was made in the USA early on in 1969.

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4 minutes ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Even stamped Archer demo or issue would be perfect but not the uneven Archer stamped bootleg. The WME stamped records are legitimate second issues. The WME was scribed by Warren McCleallan Evans who cut the lacquer in a Nashville studio. Manship Price Guide #7 rates Archer and WME stamped records with three figure values but these are well out of date by now. True Archer stamped records are rare whilst WME records are more plentiful suggesting they were the bulk order produced in Nashville. As of yet, exact dates of the Archer pressed records in Detroit are not known - neither are the exact dates of the Nashville WME discs. It is universally assumed that the Archer pressed records came first for the local Detroit market with the Nashville records coming later for a more national distribution. Given the shortage of first edition Archer records, DJ’s would be advised to spin the WME variant as it was made in the USA early on in 1969.

Thankyou Frankie great info

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Interesting  in about 1973 copies were around for £1 also originals of joy lovejoy ,Denise la called and many more used to have them at the time all came via selectable disc question is who did the dodgy  archer stamed 45 and when

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There’s still much to be written on the subject and I’m working on it. There are several Eddie Parker threads on Soul Source, all of which are worth a read. To pique your interest, there seems to be two variants of the WME etching; one is minuscule and barely decipherable to the naked eye, the other quite large and easily read. Jack Ashford has no recollection of the circumstances surrounding the Archer press but we do know that that Lorraine Chandler verified the non-Archer stamped records as bona-fide second issues. Readers may be intrigued to know that the master tape went from Detroit to Nashville for Mack Evans to cut the lacquer to make the master disk - this went to the Archer plant to produce white demos and issues over-stamped with the even Archer mark BUT issues were pressed in larger numbers in Nashville… Mack Evans has passed on so it is not possible to ascertain the date of his handiwork but it was put to use in both Detroit and Nashville late 1968/early 1969. Mack Evans was a master at his trade so the WME pressing is of a superb quality- I have not had an Archer stamped copy in my hands or on the deck to make a full comparison yet but intend to in the years ahead.

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Posted (edited)

This picture shows the first press, and it's the same as the white demo! Also it has the right vinyl profile on the outer edge, different from the counterfeit with the fake archer stamp. I am now starting to think that the Nashville press is still part of the original release effort.

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Edited by Solidsoul
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The first look a like copies  of Eddie Parker turned up around 73 about the time the Glories and Sweet Thing Boots had one at the time and those days you didn't look at matrix 

Since then I've had the so called second nashville press obtained in the USA this also had DJ marks as photo,  so the first batch via selecta - disc could have been from this press? The TIme Line on the so called Archer Boot does not fit in when did it first appear the sound on these copies is very good and what I can't see there want the demand for a re press 74 onwards

Sound quality  is good on this boot

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14 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

There’s still much to be written on the subject and I’m working on it. There are several Eddie Parker threads on Soul Source, all of which are worth a read. To pique your interest, there seems to be two variants of the WME etching; one is minuscule and barely decipherable to the naked eye, the other quite large and easily read. Jack Ashford has no recollection of the circumstances surrounding the Archer press but we do know that that Lorraine Chandler verified the non-Archer stamped records as bona-fide second issues. Readers may be intrigued to know that the master tape went from Detroit to Nashville for Mack Evans to cut the lacquer to make the master disk - this went to the Archer plant to produce white demos and issues over-stamped with the even Archer mark BUT issues were pressed in larger numbers in Nashville… Mack Evans has passed on so it is not possible to ascertain the date of his handiwork but it was put to use in both Detroit and Nashville late 1968/early 1969. Mack Evans was a master at his trade so the WME pressing is of a superb quality- I have not had an Archer stamped copy in my hands or on the deck to make a full comparison yet but intend to in the years ahead.

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I wouldn’t take everything Lorraine said as gospel, i doubt she had anything to do with the pressing of the discs and she did claim things in the past that weren’t strictly true. 

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1 hour ago, Chalky said:

I wouldn’t take everything Lorraine said as gospel, i doubt she had anything to do with the pressing of the discs and she did claim things in the past that weren’t strictly true. 

Spot on Chalky. Jack Ashford was the main driver behind the enterprise. He had huge confidence in Eddie Parker so it would have been him that placed the orders for the Archer and Nashville pressings - plus of course it was his label and production. Maybe you could check in with Jack again sometime and ask what quantities were pressed up and when. Sure, it would be great if the factory job sheets were still in existence and someone had access to them as this would enlighten us considerably - any record sleuths in Detroit and Nashville who could shed some light on this?

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6 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

This picture shows the first press, and it's the same as the white demo! Also it has the right vinyl profile on the outer edge, different from the counterfeit with the fake archer stamp. I am now starting to think that the Nashville press is still part of the original release effort.

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That’s what I’ve been mulling over - two pressings at roughly the same time or one shortly after the other. The Archer pressing plant was small and probably working to full capacity in 1968. Motown regularly sent master tapes to Nashville for lacquer cutting, master disc production and record pressing - I suspect the Eddie Parker master tape went to Nashville as part of a larger job lot. We don’t know how many master discs were derived from Mack Evans’ lacquer but at least one went back up to Archer in Detroit and others were used in Nashville to press a pretty large quantity for national distribution. If anyone has copies of Love You Baby with radio station date stamps on, that would be very useful in pinning down the production dates. To return to the original question, I’m also wondering if it was one of the Nashville master discs that was used to press the uneven Archer stamped bootleg QED?

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17 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

To pique your interest, there seems to be two variants of the WME etching; one is minuscule and barely decipherable to the naked eye, the other quite large and easily read. 

 

Might have been just the stamper wearing off during the press?

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10 minutes ago, Chalky said:

WME. If that is the initials of the engineer Mac Evans and mastered in Nashville, it doesn’t mean it was pressed or produced Nashville.  I doubt the 45 was ever getting a national distribution deal, not on Ashford. 

The record was almost certainly pressed in Nashville as Detroit master tapes were sent there regularly for mastering and mass production, probably at United Record Pressing, formerly known as United Plastics. This plant was particularly popular with Motown artists - indeed, it had a ‘Motown Suite’ where artists could stay when in Nashville. Mack Evans spent his working life in Nashville so was well connected and a key figure in the music business - it would make no sense for an Eddie Parker master disc to be sent to a pressing plant in say Chicago when there was such a strong link between Nashville and Detroit.

Copies of the WME record have surfaced in Washington DC, Pittsburgh and Chicago. Whilst this is not the whole of the USA, it is roughly half of the country and certainly the main market for 60’s soul music. The Billy Sha-Rae Soul Congress Band who played the backing track hailed from Pittsburgh, so unsurprisingly, copies of Love You Baby have turned up in Pennsylvania. I have two of the three copies left by a sales rep with a Maryland DJ hence my particular interest in the record.  Nashville being fairly central, was an ideal location to press records for a large eastern market and of course had the record wholesale and distribution network in place. For a sales rep to visit a Maryland DJ three times in several months confirms there was a large quantity of records pressed for sale, pretty much confirming that Jack Ashford had huge confidence in his Eddie Parker record. The big question is, when was the large quantity of WME non Archer records pressed before being moved to the wholesaler for promotion and widespread retailing. Without a doubt, Jack Ashford place a small order with the Archer pressing plant, being seen to support local business and presumably accessing the Detroit radio stations - he also placed a large order for Eddie Parker records at a major pressing plant, probably in Nashville being the music centre it was at that time in 1968-69.

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12 minutes ago, Frankie Crocker said:

The record was almost certainly pressed in Nashville as Detroit master tapes were sent there regularly for mastering and mass production, probably at United Record Pressing, formerly known as United Plastics. This plant was particularly popular with Motown artists - indeed, it had a ‘Motown Suite’ where artists could stay when in Nashville. Mack Evans spent his working life in Nashville so was well connected and a key figure in the music business - it would make no sense for an Eddie Parker master disc to be sent to a pressing plant in say Chicago when there was such a strong link between Nashville and Detroit.

Copies of the WME record have surfaced in Washington DC, Pittsburgh and Chicago. Whilst this is not the whole of the USA, it is roughly half of the country and certainly the main market for 60’s soul music. The Billy Sha-Rae Soul Congress Band who played the backing track hailed from Pittsburgh, so unsurprisingly, copies of Love You Baby have turned up in Pennsylvania. I have two of the three copies left by a sales rep with a Maryland DJ hence my particular interest in the record.  Nashville being fairly central, was an ideal location to press records for a large eastern market and of course had the record wholesale and distribution network in place. For a sales rep to visit a Maryland DJ three times in several months confirms there was a large quantity of records pressed for sale, pretty much confirming that Jack Ashford had huge confidence in his Eddie Parker record. The big question is, when was the large quantity of WME non Archer records pressed before being moved to the wholesaler for promotion and widespread retailing. Without a doubt, Jack Ashford place a small order with the Archer pressing plant, being seen to support local business and presumably accessing the Detroit radio stations - he also placed a large order for Eddie Parker records at a major pressing plant, probably in Nashville being the music centre it was at that time in 1968-69.


but it is still an assumption. It could have been mastered in Nashville, masters sent back to Detroit where it was pressed. Neither do you know it was a large quantity. Unless you see the actual paperwork there is no knowing how many were pressed and with the lack of pressing plant identifiers where. 

Nashville Matrix used to do mastering for labels all over the place, they didn’t press any but the masters sent back or to a pkant of tje labels choice  

a Motown suite in Nashville, again nothing to do with the manufacture of any discs. 

Edited by Chalky
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2 minutes ago, Chalky said:


but it is still an assumption. It could have been mastered in Nashville, masters sent back to Detroit where it was pressed. Neither do you know it was a large quantity. Unless you see the actual paperwork there is no knowing how many were pressed and with the lack of pressing plant identifiers where. 

Only sent back to Archer, the first and only pressing plant in the city at the time. Soul Source contributors have mentioned the large quantity that went to Soul Bowl. Some were reputedly sent to Selectadisc in Nottingham. As already mentioned above, the factory paperwork has not surfaced so it becomes necessary to make inferences. For a sales rep to drive three times from Nashville to Washington DC early in 1969, dropping off Eddie Parker (and other records) at every other record store and radio station suggests there was a large number of records pressed. The fact the record was being given a sustained promotional shove suggests the record wholesaler had given the rep a big kick up the backside, possibly prompted by Jack Ashford getting on the phone to speed things up. Whatever the numbers, Archer demos and issues have turned up in smaller quantities than the non-Archer ‘tiny’ WME pressing, the so called ‘second issue’, but probably the bulk order made by Jack Ashford. The question now arises, what do we make of the non-Archer ‘large’ WME pressing that Manship confirms as genuine - was this the second issue, pressed at a third record factory or made on a second machine at United Record Pressing in Nashville? Maybe the full story will never be known but we’re working on it.

 

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I would think that the very first time this record was pressed was the large Archer stamped white demo, then it stands to reason that the first issues to be pressed would be the large Archer stamped issues at the same pressing plant.

Then when they needed more pressed up a little later, they have gone elsewhere to get the non-archer stamped records pressed.

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There is still no evidence it was pressed in Nashville just an inference as you say.  They did have couriers back then, it is how masters got to pressing plants around the country for national distributed discs. Cheaper to shop a master than a quantity if discs. I doubt very much it was pressed for national distribution, Ashford didn’t have the resources for that. 

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The Superlatives - I Don’t Know How.  Mastered at Nashville Matrix, lacquer cut by Evans and pressed in Detroit at Archer.  Found that example after just a few discs and there will but 100s more mastered in Nashville and pressed elsewhere. 
The Four Sonics on Sepia another example. Your argument that because it was mastered in one place means it was pressed there holds no water. 

Edited by Chalky
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1 hour ago, Chalky said:


but it is still an assumption. It could have been mastered in Nashville, masters sent back to Detroit where it was pressed. Neither do you know it was a large quantity. Unless you see the actual paperwork there is no knowing how many were pressed and with the lack of pressing plant identifiers where. 

Nashville Matrix used to do mastering for labels all over the place, they didn’t press any but the masters sent back or to a pkant of tje labels choice  

a Motown suite in Nashville, again nothing to do with the manufacture of any discs. 

Quite surprisingly I have a UK Oriole single (shall sort it out) of a Motown recording that bears a Nashville Matrix stamp in it 🤔

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44 minutes ago, Chalky said:

The Superlatives - I Don’t Know How.  Mastered at Nashville Matrix, lacquer cut by Evans and pressed in Detroit at Archer.  Found that example after just a few discs and there will but 100s more mastered in Nashville and pressed elsewhere. 
The Four Sonics on Sepia another example. Your argument that because it was mastered in one place means it was pressed there holds no water. 

Correct Chalky. Archer pressed a tiny number of Northern Soul records on local labels, but as a small business, it could not handle large contracts so Motown went elsewhere for bulk record pressing. The link between Detroit and Nashville was a strong one with the latter producing Motown masters and record pressings. Jack Ashford as a Motown percussionist on hundreds of records may well have travelled to Nashville with the house band, stayed in the Motown Suite and become acquainted with Mack Evans - you could ask him this perhaps - whatever the details, Jack chose to send his master tape to Mack Evans for the lacquer to be cut for the master discs.

There was a finite number of record pressing plants in the 1960’s, the table below shows many of them but it is not complete. If you ignore the west coast plants and those owned by the majors, there are only a few near Detroit and Nashville pressing vinyl as opposed to styrene. Until somebody can state categorically that Eddie Parker was pressed in New Jersey or Indiana, I’m happy to go with the logical location of Nashville. We may never know for certain but the principles of external economies of scale applied in this case suggest Nashville rather than somewhere further afield without strong links to Detroit.

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13 hours ago, Theothertosspot said:

Quite surprisingly I have a UK Oriole single (shall sort it out) of a Motown recording that bears a Nashville Matrix stamp in it 🤔

There are several early Tamla Motown releases from The Netherlands that carry Nashville Matrix or RCA Custom matrixes, so the actual US made lacquers must've been sent over from the US to Holland. Same goes for lots of Beatles releases that have UK matrix but are clearly pressed in Denmark/Sweden/etc.

Edited by Sebastian
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13 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Correct Chalky. Archer pressed a tiny number of Northern Soul records on local labels, but as a small business, it could not handle large contracts so Motown went elsewhere for bulk record pressing. The link between Detroit and Nashville was a strong one with the latter producing Motown masters and record pressings. Jack Ashford as a Motown percussionist on hundreds of records may well have travelled to Nashville with the house band, stayed in the Motown Suite and become acquainted with Mack Evans - you could ask him this perhaps - whatever the details, Jack chose to send his master tape to Mack Evans for the lacquer to be cut for the master discs.

There was a finite number of record pressing plants in the 1960’s, the table below shows many of them but it is not complete. If you ignore the west coast plants and those owned by the majors, there are only a few near Detroit and Nashville pressing vinyl as opposed to styrene. Until somebody can state categorically that Eddie Parker was pressed in New Jersey or Indiana, I’m happy to go with the logical location of Nashville. We may never know for certain but the principles of external economies of scale applied in this case suggest Nashville rather than somewhere further afield without strong links to Detroit.

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Tiny amount? Archer pressed records for many labels. I am not saying everything recorded in Detroit was pressed there, far from it.  But neither is it true that because it was mastered in say Nashville that it was pressed there. There are a lot if places in between the two cities or closer to Detroit that had pressing plants Columbia did many labels so not sure how you can take them out of the equation?  
 

We don’t even know for sure the date the second press were done.  Why would Ashford go to the expense of having another set of masters made when he already had one?  

Edited by Chalky
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3 hours ago, Chalky said:

Tiny amount? Archer pressed records for many labels. I am not saying everything recorded in Detroit was pressed there, far from it.  But neither is it true that because it was mastered in say Nashville that it was pressed there. There are a lot if places in between the two cities or closer to Detroit that had pressing plants Columbia did many labels so not sure how you can take them out of the equation?  
 

We don’t even know for sure the date the second press were done.  Why would Ashford go to the expense of having another set of masters made when he already had one?  

Many thanks for your continued interest Chalky - I’ll endeavour to respond to the points raised below.

There is a list of Archer records pressed online. It is not complete as it excludes Eddie Parker. Despite being the first record pressing plant in Detroit, it was small and unable to produce the gargantuan quantities of records the city generated. Archer is still operating today at full capacity with a waiting list for specialist vinyl projects into the near future. The Four Tracks on Mandingo typifies its output - a minor local label pressed in such a small quantity that future rarity was assured. I suspect Jack Ashford placed a minimum order for Eddie Parker, as then, as is the case now, unit costs of production were restrictive to the small entrepreneur, especially so when the label was not an established one with cash in the bank.

We have established Mack Evans in Nashville took the master tape and cut the lacquer. The matrix number on Eddie Parker includes a 95 - this is because Archer had Nashville Matrix Account Number 95; the account number was assigned by Nashville Record Productions (NRP) but the number 95 appears to be related with Nashville Matrix, the plating facility. To quote your own words Chalky, ‘Nashville Phono Matrix was a plating company - they did plates forSouthern Plastics, Archer and others’ (Soul Source 30/10/12). Nashville Matrix took the metal blanks from Matrix of Nashville and turned them into master discs using Mack Evans handiwork. For the record, Nashville Record Productions were based at 469 Chestnut Street, Nashville Matrix was based at 457 Chestnut Street and opposite United Record Pressing at 457 Chestnut Street. URP was known as Southern Plastics until 1971 - it makes sense to assume Eddie Parker records were pressed here until further information to the contrary surfaces. For the Archer plant to press up a quantity of Eddie Parker records without an Archer stamp stretches the bounds of implausibility so we must accept the bulk of the release was produced by another factory elsewhere.

Gonna hold it there to keep the thread manageable but there’s more to add later…

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I did ask Jack about all the variations but he couldn’t give me any answers about any if them, he cannot remember anything. I’m as curious as anyone to know the history of the disc, where when and why but without evidence it is just a guessing game. But those guesses soon get accepted as fact and its a route I’d sooner not go down, especially when there ate 1000s of records mastered in Nashville and pressed elsewhere. That and the fact that Jack didn’t always have the resources needed to do what is sometimes suggested. 

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9 minutes ago, Patto said:

Any more info on the NSC marked vinyl press i put up a few posts back...Not a bootleg im told

National Sound Corporation, mastering company? Something to do with Ron Murphy but later than the. 60s I believe

Edited by Chalky
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9 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Fear not Chalky, evidence is to hand…

The copyright for Eddie Parker is dated 14th October 1968. This registration would normally follow the recording of the song which in this case took place at United Sound Studio, Jack Ashford’s preferred recording studio where Pied Piper Productions delivered a host of legendary tracks. Allow a week for the master tape to be filled and delivered to Nashville, a week for Mack Evans and Nashville Matrix to cut the master plates, transport to the Archer plant, set up the press(es) and make a limited quantity - we can now assume Eddie Parker was produced in mid-November 1968. Maybe paperwork will turn up one day to confirm this, who knows?

The photos below show three WME versions received by a DJ in the Washington DC area - the hand written dates probably indicate the time the records were received and/or filed. The earliest copy is dated 2nd February 1969 suggesting the record was pressed in January or late December. Accepting that Archer being the main customer had the record pressed initially in November, the non-Archer stamped issues were produced shortly afterwards, probably in Nashville where unit costs for a larger bulk order were lower. For a sales rep to make three journeys to push the same record over a period of three months suggests there was a plentiful supply at the distributors. It looks like Jack Ashford planned all along to press his label’s first release in two locations. Both releases can therefore be considered genuine original USA 1960’s presses.

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Well done mate great research...looks like mine is a 70s legit reissue which is how i bought it to be fair...to play at home

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9 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Fear not Chalky, evidence is to hand…

The copyright for Eddie Parker is dated 14th October 1968. This registration would normally follow the recording of the song which in this case took place at United Sound Studio, Jack Ashford’s preferred recording studio where Pied Piper Productions delivered a host of legendary tracks. Allow a week for the master tape to be filled and delivered to Nashville, a week for Mack Evans and Nashville Matrix to cut the master plates, transport to the Archer plant, set up the press(es) and make a limited quantity - we can now assume Eddie Parker was produced in mid-November 1968. Maybe paperwork will turn up one day to confirm this, who knows?

The photos below show three WME versions received by a DJ in the Washington DC area - the hand written dates probably indicate the time the records were received and/or filed. The earliest copy is dated 2nd February 1969 suggesting the record was pressed in January or late December. Accepting that Archer being the main customer had the record pressed initially in November, the non-Archer stamped issues were produced shortly afterwards, probably in Nashville where unit costs for a larger bulk order were lower. For a sales rep to make three journeys to push the same record over a period of three months suggests there was a plentiful supply at the distributors. It looks like Jack Ashford planned all along to press his label’s first release in two locations. Both releases can therefore be considered genuine original USA 1960’s presses.

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Nice, that nails the time of release. Be nice to get something concrete regarding how the other presses came about and where they were pressed. If only Jack Ashford had a decent memory. 

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Might as well stick these two press clippings from Billboard (May 1970) and Record World (July 1970) up here. Despite what has been claimed by Lorraine Chandler in the past, there is no way that those Googa Mooga releases were released without knowledge from the rights owners.

 

 

googa mooga reword world 25 july 1970.jpg

 

 

 

googa mooga billboard 9 may 1970.jpg

Edited by Sebastian
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