is "crossover" the mix of traditional uptempo northern/modern soul, or northern/funk/disco. or a conbination, please discuss. i'm now getting confused

It's 1969-ish to 1972/1973-ish soul. At least for me it is.

I.e. the crossover period when production techniques changed a whole lot, but hadn't gone "full circle" into the "proper" 70s sound.

Cue: 5 pages of debate...

Here's my 'definitive definition' or explanation - from my previous post a few months ago!

See Previous Thread For other 'Definitions' if you want to be further confused

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.p...&pid=427591

The term 'Crossover Soul' was first used over here (in the UK) by Rod Dearlove at Thorne (Canal Tavern) to describe those records produced in the late 60's and early 70's that were neither:-

a) Typical 60's style Soul / Motownesque tunes

or

b ) Typical 70's 'strings n' things' productions.

These records had not really gained mass favour on the UK 'Northern' scene as they weren't 'typical' Motown styled 60's sounding records.

Nor had they been well received on the 'Modern' scene as they weren't necessarily 'uptempo, new or 'zippy' enough for the modern crowd.

These were records produced around that 4-5 year 'crossover' period between the 60's and the 70's.

The term 'Crossover Soul' in the UK 'Soul Scene' sense does not refer to music that 'crossed over' from the R&B charts to the mainstream (as in the US sense) nor does it mean records that 'crossed over' from the 'Modern' rooms to the 'Northern' rooms.

Typical 'Crossover Soul' records referred to at the time that the phrase was first used in this context (late 80's / Early 90's) would have included:-

Bobby Reed "The Time Is Right For Love"

Soul Brothers Inc "That Loving Feeling"

Frank Lynch "Young Girl"

Enchanted Five "Have You Ever"

Vivian Copeland "Key In The Mailbox"

LJ Reynolds "All I Need"

Sandra Wright "Midnight Affair"

Ultimates "Girl I've Been Trying To Tell You"

Tyrone St German "In A World So Cold"

Sy Hightower "I Wonder Why"

100 Proof "Don't You Wake Me"

Will Hatcher "You Haven't Seen Nothing Yet"

Ray Frazier "These Eyes"

None of these had been acknowledged 'Northern' or 'Modern' soul records (wrong tempo and wrong 'sound' for the Northern scene... and far too old for the other).

All of the above, though, fitted the 'Crossover Soul' genre and the Thorne crowd's requirements perfectly.

In the past 15 or so years (since the phrase was first used to describe records from this period) this 'sound' and type of record has since 'crossed over' to the Northern Scene alerting many people to that rich period of Soul artistry, the late 60's and early 70's... and confusing others as to the definition.

Ultimately, though, it refers to the period in US Soul Music recording history when the music crossed over the decades (late 60's into the early 70's) and changed its musical style in the process.

We have Rod Dearlove to thank for breaking the mould.

Sean Hampsey

gernerally they aren't uptempo. they are records from the late 60's to probably'73/'74/'75 that don't fit into the general description of your traditional northern, 70's modern dancers...all IMO of course.

It's what Chickens listen to whilst going from one side of the road to the other.

is "crossover" the mix of traditional uptempo northern/modern soul, or northern/funk/disco. or a conbination, please discuss. i'm now getting confused

Anything that sounds like Tyrone Davis "Can I change my mind" and anything that sounds like Archie Bell and the Drells "Tighten up" !!!

Sean's more or less spot on. The term was outlined in the Fanzine "Voices from the Shadows" No.16 from 1991.

I guess it described the Soul music that people like me and Sean and quite a few others were into but did'nt fit into the Northern/Modern label. To be honest I just like the one label Soul Music or GOOD SOUL MUSIC.

Regards Alan

I guess it described the Soul music that people like me and Sean and quite a few others were into but did'nt fit into the Northern/Modern label.

So right Alan, and 15+ years on... even more people are getting hip to the vibe!

Makes you wonder... is the 'crossover' period and style fashionable now?

I know our mutual friend in Lincoln was telling me that the 'Northern Soul' guys are all getting into it now.

Whatever next

Personally, I was buying this stuff at the time they were makin' em... so at least nobody can accuse me of being a fashion victim!

Sean

But why is it called crossover , wheres it crossing over to ? Who named it ?

no way this is crossover to me Ultimates "Girl I've Been Trying To Tell You"

Edited March 31, 200718 yr by Simon M

Here's my 'definitive definition' or explanation - from my previous post a few months ago!

See Previous Thread For other 'Definitions' if you want to be further confused

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.p...&pid=427591

The term 'Crossover Soul' was first used over here (in the UK) by Rod Dearlove at Thorne (Canal Tavern) to describe those records produced in the late 60's and early 70's that were neither:-

a) Typical 60's style Soul / Motownesque tunes

or

b ) Typical 70's 'strings n' things' productions.

These records had not really gained mass favour on the UK 'Northern' scene as they weren't 'typical' Motown styled 60's sounding records.

Nor had they been well received on the 'Modern' scene as they weren't necessarily 'uptempo, new or 'zippy' enough for the modern crowd.

These were records produced around that 4-5 year 'crossover' period between the 60's and the 70's.

The term 'Crossover Soul' in the UK 'Soul Scene' sense does not refer to music that 'crossed over' from the R&B charts to the mainstream (as in the US sense) nor does it mean records that 'crossed over' from the 'Modern' rooms to the 'Northern' rooms.

Typical 'Crossover Soul' records referred to at the time that the phrase was first used in this context (late 80's / Early 90's) would have included:-

Bobby Reed "The Time Is Right For Love"

Soul Brothers Inc "That Loving Feeling"

Frank Lynch "Young Girl"

Enchanted Five "Have You Ever"

Vivian Copeland "Key In The Mailbox"

LJ Reynolds "All I Need"

Sandra Wright "Midnight Affair"

Ultimates "Girl I've Been Trying To Tell You"

Tyrone St German "In A World So Cold"

Sy Hightower "I Wonder Why"

100 Proof "Don't You Wake Me"

Will Hatcher "You Haven't Seen Nothing Yet"

Ray Frazier "These Eyes"

None of these had been acknowledged 'Northern' or 'Modern' soul records (wrong tempo and wrong 'sound' for the Northern scene... and far too old for the other).

All of the above, though, fitted the 'Crossover Soul' genre and the Thorne crowd's requirements perfectly.

In the past 15 or so years (since the phrase was first used to describe records from this period) this 'sound' and type of record has since 'crossed over' to the Northern Scene alerting many people to that rich period of Soul artistry, the late 60's and early 70's... and confusing others as to the definition.

Ultimately, though, it refers to the period in US Soul Music recording history when the music crossed over the decades (late 60's into the early 70's) and changed its musical style in the process.

We have Rod Dearlove to thank for breaking the mould.

Sean Hampsey

thanks for that sean , can you (or anyone else) recomend any album/albums or cd's that i should lookout for so i can hear the tunes to help clarify it clearer.

many thanks in advance

alan

i thought it was called crossover as it descirbed tunes that had crossed over and played to the northern room from the modern room

Here's my 'definitive definition' or explanation - from my previous post a few months ago!

See Previous Thread For other 'Definitions' if you want to be further confused

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.p...&pid=427591

The term 'Crossover Soul' was first used over here (in the UK) by Rod Dearlove at Thorne (Canal Tavern) to describe those records produced in the late 60's and early 70's that were neither:-

a) Typical 60's style Soul / Motownesque tunes

or

b ) Typical 70's 'strings n' things' productions.

These records had not really gained mass favour on the UK 'Northern' scene as they weren't 'typical' Motown styled 60's sounding records.

Nor had they been well received on the 'Modern' scene as they weren't necessarily 'uptempo, new or 'zippy' enough for the modern crowd.

These were records produced around that 4-5 year 'crossover' period between the 60's and the 70's.

The term 'Crossover Soul' in the UK 'Soul Scene' sense does not refer to music that 'crossed over' from the R&B charts to the mainstream (as in the US sense) nor does it mean records that 'crossed over' from the 'Modern' rooms to the 'Northern' rooms.

Typical 'Crossover Soul' records referred to at the time that the phrase was first used in this context (late 80's / Early 90's) would have included:-

Bobby Reed "The Time Is Right For Love"

Soul Brothers Inc "That Loving Feeling"

Frank Lynch "Young Girl"

Enchanted Five "Have You Ever"

Vivian Copeland "Key In The Mailbox"

LJ Reynolds "All I Need"

Sandra Wright "Midnight Affair"

Ultimates "Girl I've Been Trying To Tell You"

Tyrone St German "In A World So Cold"

Sy Hightower "I Wonder Why"

100 Proof "Don't You Wake Me"

Will Hatcher "You Haven't Seen Nothing Yet"

Ray Frazier "These Eyes"

None of these had been acknowledged 'Northern' or 'Modern' soul records (wrong tempo and wrong 'sound' for the Northern scene... and far too old for the other).

All of the above, though, fitted the 'Crossover Soul' genre and the Thorne crowd's requirements perfectly.

In the past 15 or so years (since the phrase was first used to describe records from this period) this 'sound' and type of record has since 'crossed over' to the Northern Scene alerting many people to that rich period of Soul artistry, the late 60's and early 70's... and confusing others as to the definition.

Ultimately, though, it refers to the period in US Soul Music recording history when the music crossed over the decades (late 60's into the early 70's) and changed its musical style in the process.

We have Rod Dearlove to thank for breaking the mould.

Sean Hampsey

I understood it to mean exactly what Sean says here, the crossover from A to B as Sean set it out above i.e. the period between classic Motown and Northern "on the fours" and Disco. I always thought of Odds and Ends 'Let Me Try' and Jackie Day's great 'Whats The Cost" very much as 'Crossover' records.

The word crossover to describle a type of music was originally coined in the 60's to describe the type of 'race' music ( i.e. black / R&B / soul music) that had become acceptable to the white market. For example, Motown tunes being played on white radio stations.

I first saw the word used on lists about 25 years ago to describe records from around 1969 - 1973 that were between the uptempo motown - type of the 60's and the emerging 'disco' sounds of the 70's. I've never really took much notice of them as they seemed to slow and wishy-washy for the time.

Nowadays it's probably used to describe the tunes that us old folks can just about jig about to for 3 minutes without fear of a coronary!

Seans explaination is spot on, any other theories just complicate a simple matter

The word crossover to describle a type of music was originally coined in the 60's to describe the type of 'race' music ( i.e. black / R&B / soul music) that had become acceptable to the white market. For example, Motown tunes being played on white radio stations.

I first saw the word used on lists about 25 years ago to describe records from around 1969 - 1973 that were between the uptempo motown - type of the 60's and the emerging 'disco' sounds of the 70's. I've never really took much notice of them as they seemed to slow and wishy-washy for the time.

Nowadays it's probably used to describe the tunes that us old folks can just about jig about to for 3 minutes without fear of a coronary!

certainly saw and heard the term used 87/88, certainly before '91.

To be honest I just like the one label Soul Music or GOOD SOUL MUSIC.

Regards Alan

i wish i had a pund for everytime this is uttered everytime we are talking about any genre

Get down to 'Room At The Back' at Spondon, Derby tonight & have a listen.

Setting off in a few minutes so see you there if your'e going.

Here's my 'definitive definition' or explanation - from my previous post a few months ago!

See Previous Thread For other 'Definitions' if you want to be further confused

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.p...&pid=427591

The term 'Crossover Soul' was first used over here (in the UK) by Rod Dearlove at Thorne (Canal Tavern) to describe those records produced in the late 60's and early 70's that were neither:-

a) Typical 60's style Soul / Motownesque tunes

or

b ) Typical 70's 'strings n' things' productions.

These records had not really gained mass favour on the UK 'Northern' scene as they weren't 'typical' Motown styled 60's sounding records.

Nor had they been well received on the 'Modern' scene as they weren't necessarily 'uptempo, new or 'zippy' enough for the modern crowd.

These were records produced around that 4-5 year 'crossover' period between the 60's and the 70's.

The term 'Crossover Soul' in the UK 'Soul Scene' sense does not refer to music that 'crossed over' from the R&B charts to the mainstream (as in the US sense) nor does it mean records that 'crossed over' from the 'Modern' rooms to the 'Northern' rooms.

Typical 'Crossover Soul' records referred to at the time that the phrase was first used in this context (late 80's / Early 90's) would have included:-

Bobby Reed "The Time Is Right For Love"

Soul Brothers Inc "That Loving Feeling"

Frank Lynch "Young Girl"

Enchanted Five "Have You Ever"

Vivian Copeland "Key In The Mailbox"

LJ Reynolds "All I Need"

Sandra Wright "Midnight Affair"

Ultimates "Girl I've Been Trying To Tell You"

Tyrone St German "In A World So Cold"

Sy Hightower "I Wonder Why"

100 Proof "Don't You Wake Me"

Will Hatcher "You Haven't Seen Nothing Yet"

Ray Frazier "These Eyes"

None of these had been acknowledged 'Northern' or 'Modern' soul records (wrong tempo and wrong 'sound' for the Northern scene... and far too old for the other).

All of the above, though, fitted the 'Crossover Soul' genre and the Thorne crowd's requirements perfectly.

In the past 15 or so years (since the phrase was first used to describe records from this period) this 'sound' and type of record has since 'crossed over' to the Northern Scene alerting many people to that rich period of Soul artistry, the late 60's and early 70's... and confusing others as to the definition.

Ultimately, though, it refers to the period in US Soul Music recording history when the music crossed over the decades (late 60's into the early 70's) and changed its musical style in the process.

We have Rod Dearlove to thank for breaking the mould.

Sean Hampsey

Brill that, at last I understad

Get down to 'Room At The Back' at Spondon, Derby tonight & have a listen.

Setting off in a few minutes so see you there if your'e going.

were's that then ? is it a regular thing ? something for the future thats for sure.

alan

Here's my 'definitive definition' or explanation - from my previous post a few months ago!

See Previous Thread For other 'Definitions' if you want to be further confused

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.p...&pid=427591

The term 'Crossover Soul' was first used over here (in the UK) by Rod Dearlove at Thorne (Canal Tavern) to describe those records produced in the late 60's and early 70's that were neither:-

a) Typical 60's style Soul / Motownesque tunes

or

b ) Typical 70's 'strings n' things' productions.

These records had not really gained mass favour on the UK 'Northern' scene as they weren't 'typical' Motown styled 60's sounding records.

Nor had they been well received on the 'Modern' scene as they weren't necessarily 'uptempo, new or 'zippy' enough for the modern crowd.

These were records produced around that 4-5 year 'crossover' period between the 60's and the 70's.

The term 'Crossover Soul' in the UK 'Soul Scene' sense does not refer to music that 'crossed over' from the R&B charts to the mainstream (as in the US sense) nor does it mean records that 'crossed over' from the 'Modern' rooms to the 'Northern' rooms.

Typical 'Crossover Soul' records referred to at the time that the phrase was first used in this context (late 80's / Early 90's) would have included:-

Bobby Reed "The Time Is Right For Love"

Soul Brothers Inc "That Loving Feeling"

Frank Lynch "Young Girl"

Enchanted Five "Have You Ever"

Vivian Copeland "Key In The Mailbox"

LJ Reynolds "All I Need"

Sandra Wright "Midnight Affair"

Ultimates "Girl I've Been Trying To Tell You"

Tyrone St German "In A World So Cold"

Sy Hightower "I Wonder Why"

100 Proof "Don't You Wake Me"

Will Hatcher "You Haven't Seen Nothing Yet"

Ray Frazier "These Eyes"

None of these had been acknowledged 'Northern' or 'Modern' soul records (wrong tempo and wrong 'sound' for the Northern scene... and far too old for the other).

All of the above, though, fitted the 'Crossover Soul' genre and the Thorne crowd's requirements perfectly.

In the past 15 or so years (since the phrase was first used to describe records from this period) this 'sound' and type of record has since 'crossed over' to the Northern Scene alerting many people to that rich period of Soul artistry, the late 60's and early 70's... and confusing others as to the definition.

Ultimately, though, it refers to the period in US Soul Music recording history when the music crossed over the decades (late 60's into the early 70's) and changed its musical style in the process.

We have Rod Dearlove to thank for breaking the mould.

Sean Hampsey

Spot on Sean, and particularly with reference to Rod Dearlove breaking the mould, spent a few Great nights at the Canal Tavern.....seems like yesterday, and with regard to many of the great tunes, played by Rod himself, which were very innovative at the time in my opinion, a lot of which have become accepted generally nowadays and rightly so

thanks for that sean , can you (or anyone else) recomend any album/albums or cd's that i should lookout for so i can hear the tunes to help clarify it clearer.

many thanks in advance

alan

I think I may still have some original tapes Rod did for me back in the Thorne days, and I certainly have a few CD,s , will pm you when I get home midweek Alan

all the above descriptions are pretty much accurate....Rod knows more than the rest of us put together.....

We have Rod Dearlove to thank for breaking the mould....

Sean Hampsey

Er, so what was Mel Britt, Deniece Chandler, Judy Freeman & Blackrock etc. etc. etc. etc....?

Edited April 1, 200718 yr by mel brat

Er, so what was Mel Britt, Deniece Chandler, Judy Freeman & Blackrock etc. etc. etc. etc....?

Er... they were records from that same period that I was referring to... but at the time we (the UK Soul Scene) didn't call them 'Crossover' and (as I'm sure you're well aware) such records were the exception rather than the rule... whereas ' at the Canal Tavern (Thorne) under Rod Dearlove they were the norm.

Could also cite Lyn Vernado "Wash And Wear Love" and many others as perfect Soul records of the genre... i.e. Tasty Soul... but Pre Thorne (as in Blackpool Mecca, Mel ).

Sean Hampsey

i thought it was called crossover as it descirbed tunes that had crossed over and played to the northern room from the modern room

And cleared the floor in both

Er... they were records from that same period that I was referring to... but at the time we (the UK Soul Scene) didn't call them 'Crossover' and (as I'm sure you're well aware) such records were the exception rather than the rule... whereas ' at the Canal Tavern (Thorne) under Rod Dearlove they were the norm.

Could also cite Lyn Vernado "Wash And Wear Love" and many others as perfect Soul records of the genre... i.e. Tasty Soul... but Pre Thorne (as in Blackpool Mecca, Mel ).

Sean Hampsey

Yes, I went to Thorne a few times too! But the 'Voices From The Shadows' article on the Modern Soul scene cites Blackpool Mecca (particularly the "last hour") as the forerunner and common inspiration for venues such as Thorne, so I think whether the actual term "crossover" was used to describe these records earlier is irrelevant, as I've stated several times before.

I have a lot of respect for Rod, who actually WAS helping to break the stranglehold of mainly uptempo seventies recordings that had been dominant on the rare seventies scene in the early 80s, however the general potential of this musical period had been recognised long before it was given a tag.

They may not have been the norm, but there were plenty of them being played (many of which have only recently been revived and acknowledged) but they were definitely NOT in the 'traditional' Northern category either, nor were they regarded as such until later. I honestly DO think that the link with Blackpool is constantly understated in regard to the current Modern Soul scene, hence my constant nagging! No offence.

Edited April 2, 200718 yr by mel brat

And cleared the floor in both

Only of those unfortunates with two left feet, who struggled to master ONE simple dance routine C.1978, and have never updated it! (I think it's called the "Wigan Two-Step"?)

Edited April 2, 200718 yr by mel brat

I think whether the actual term "crossover" was used to describe these records earlier is irrelevant, as I've stated several times before.

Except Mel that the Questioner was asking for a definition of 'Crossover' in which case it's important to explain when, where and by whom the definition was first coined.

Of course records from the 'crossover period' were played prior to Thorne and most of us are well aware of the Mecca's contribution (even though it wasn't the only place playing that genre, period and 'tempo' of Soul Music at that time).

Credit where it's Due. The Crossover 'scene' was started at Thorne and carried on by such venues as Parkers, Pitches and Munsters. Thankfully it's now more commonplace... but it's been a long time comin!

Sean

I meant to ask this very question the other day, but never got around to it.

Thanks for the very informative responses everyone.