Whilst pm`ing one of the members on s/s yesterday, we touched on the subject of wich records started the rare soul scene as we know it today, would be intresting to hear your views on this, we came up with cecil washington & john & the wierdest?

Also the 80's saw Poke , Soul Sam , Robin S etc play loads of brand new uptempo records at all-nighers .

Everything was given it's chance, to me how it should be, blinkers removed and if a record was good enough it got played if not it was discarded, often after just a few plays. But uptempo soul was played and found in abundance not just the grittier stuff either. It wasn't really until early mid 90's and the return of those who missed the 80's that everything went into reverse gear (IMHO).

Regardless of your disagreement with Jock and what was said between you, on this subject I happen to agree with what he says.

Your choice i guess.

But i'm sorry Chalky, i agree with the principle of your 'if it was good enough it was played' statement, but what i can remember from the early 80's the majority of stuff being played was modern, & a lot of it imo ablosute s***e ! Which had a big effect on my desicion to take the family life route !

& whether or not i have got my dates right all i said was that Stafford & the 100 club , i thought, had more influence than any particular couple of records in changing the tack & quality of the scene.

If you look back at my 'expanding waistlines & drying up of tunes' quote it was followed with a smiley.

Though i still think the drying up of the 'traditional' Northern sound had some influence.

Perhaps you could give us a similar size list of things discovered from 84 to say 94 which are very similar in sound 'and' tempo to say ;-

Key to my happiness, I still love you (superlatives), Countdown here i come, You've been away, Double Life, I'll be there, Don't take it out on this world, A little loving sometimes, Change your ways, Slippin' around, Sitting in the corner, You can split, Someday were gonna' love again, Take your love & run, I only get this feeling, Quitting time, Tough girl, I'm gone, Love you baby, Get it , I can't get away, The duck, Wait till i get to know you, Be's that way sometime, I'm on my way, Turning my heartbeat up, My world is on fire, A little togetherness, I'm gonna find me somebody, I'm in a world of trouble, Help me, Help me (get myself back together again, Quick change artist, Slow fizz, Stick by me baby, Spinnin' top, Sock it to em JB, Have some everybody, That girl, Just a little while, Compared to what, Woman, love,thief , Baby you got it, Lay this burden down, Exus trek, I don't want to discus it.

To name just a few off the top of my head ( & Pete Smith's play box video nice one Pete ) could go on & on.

Think you are getting caught up in Jocko's spin Chalky.

& i say again, whatever caused the change thank god it happened & led to the different types of tunes that are now accepted .

& on that bombshell im off Just been told of for letting another cup of tea go cold downstairs Yes dear, on my way.

Edited December 30, 200717 yr by Bogue

Did'nt Keb buy one half,or some of Levines, record collection in the 80s,and played some of them at Stafford?

Kev

here's Kebs 20 floorfillers from mid 80's to start things off.....

others including Junior McCants - Try Me... on King, Mello Souls - We Can Make It on Mello, Diane Lewis You Ain't Got A Chance, Trannells - I'm Blessed With A Love - Flo Jo, Carl Henry Hall - Let Me Doiwn Slowly - Mercury, Citations - Keep The Faith, Clarence Hill - Whole Lotta Lovin, Esther Grant, Mac Staton, Tiommy Ridgely, Hytones - Southern Arts/Bell, JAckie Day - Naughty Boy, Jesse Davis - Gonna Hang On In There Girl, Johnny rogers - Make A Change. Little Charles, Little Stanley -Out A Site Lovin', Melba Moore - MAgic Touch, all those unissued Motown acetates (granted asome maybe early 80's but as we're talking about the 80's...), Out-A- Sights, Eddie Whitehead!

I'm sure we could both go on and on but other things to do as well

here's Kebs 20 floorfillers from mid 80's to start things off.....

others including Junior McCants - Try Me... on King, Mello Souls - We Can Make It on Mello, Diane Lewis You Ain't Got A Chance, Trannells - I'm Blessed With A Love - Flo Jo, Carl Henry Hall - Let Me Doiwn Slowly - Mercury, Citations - Keep The Faith, Clarence Hill - Whole Lotta Lovin, Esther Grant, Mac Staton, Tiommy Ridgely, Hytones - Southern Arts/Bell, JAckie Day - Naughty Boy, Jesse Davis - Gonna Hang On In There Girl, Johnny rogers - Make A Change. Little Charles, Little Stanley -Out A Site Lovin', Melba Moore - MAgic Touch, all those unissued Motown acetates (granted asome maybe early 80's but as we're talking about the 80's...), Out-A- Sights, Eddie Whitehead!

I'm sure we could both go on and on but other things to do as well

Some of those are pushing the boundries of uptempo Chalky

It's all bloody great music anyhow eh !!

Did'nt Keb buy one half,or some of Levines, record collection in the 80s,and played some of them at Stafford?

Kev

I think Clarkie and Tim A went through that and may have sold some to Keb ?

Edited December 30, 200717 yr by Simon M

I think Clarkie and Tim A went through that and may have sold some to Keb ?

think most were bought by bernie golding? (i think) he lived somewhere near bolton i think .and tim brown got a lot of his stuff from there. others must have gone through the collection as a lot of stuff ian let go for about 10p a copy.

the reason for the rumours of stuff frying up was caused by ian and colins move into 7o0s and new releases as ian said he was no longer turning stuff up of the quality of his major discoveries. (the golden years as he called them)

mark

pre 80's ie Wigan era wasn't by any means all uptempo anyhow! I think the 'stompers' brigade have the rose-tinted glasses syndrome same as the 'oldies are best' merchants.

I seem to remember "Paris blues" "If you ever walk out of my life" "long after tonite is all over" "It really hurts me girl" "Just like the weather" "Raining teardrops" etc being played at Wigan. Hardly 100mph stormers were they? People seem to labour under the mis-conception that mid-tempo means walking pace beat balads. In fact mid-tempo covers a broad spectrum from the slowish Monique "If you love me, show me" to the bouncy Ruby "Feminine ingenuity". Neither 100mph stormers but very differing tempo requiring a diferent dance stlye or speed of footwork, yet I would put 'em both in the mid-tempo bracket, IMHO. Wheel, Torch, Wigan, Stafford all played a mix of tempos, and newies/oldies. It's only recently that the narrow minded are DEMANDING venues play all up-tempo, all oldies, or all R&B etc. Thats whats spoiling things IMHO!

Edited December 30, 200717 yr by Trevski

I agree with Jocko and Chalky.

It's hard to remember, at least it is for me but looking back it feels like Wigan ends, Stafford starts with a line drawn between the two but the reality must have been that it was a seamless transition and the scene moved on. As for the end of uptempo with the closing of Wigan nothing could be further from the truth, at Leicester Oddfellows i'll always remember dancing to The Mighty Marvellows - Talkin' Bout Ya Baby and at Stafford Keb played the Royal Esquires - Aint Gonna Run covered up. It might have felt a slowed down scene compared to Wigan but as has been said already maybe more mid-tempo (and in my opinion more soulful) sounds were getting plays. I can't remember if they were played at Wigan (probably) but three records that scream Stafford to me are The Executive Four - I Gotta Good Thing Going and Ray Agee - Losing Again and Jackie Day - Naughty Boy. None of them what i'd descibe as mid-tempo.

You're right about the rapid turnover of sounds Chalky although i don't agree that it was just the bad ones that only got a few plays, there are hundreds of so-called 'forgotten' and 'underplayed' oldies being 'reactivated' after they got a few plays in the 80s. Lots of them great sounds.

Also as for old sweaty blokes on a dying scene at the end of Wigan, i was 14 in 1980 thanks very much!

You're right about the rapid turnover of sounds Chalky although i don't agree that it was just the bad ones that only got a few plays, there are hundreds of so-called 'forgotten' and 'underplayed' oldies being 'reactivated' after they got a few plays in the 80s. Lots of them great sounds.

I agree Matt, not just the bad that was discarded. A point I made in another topic about quality not always shining through. There's many records from the 80's waiting to be discovered by many and re-discovered by others.

Also the 80's saw Poke , Soul Sam , Robin S etc play loads of brand new uptempo records at all-nighers .

Bless 'em

Surely there was no "traditional Northern Soul" in the early days. It's all just evolution of the scene as it developed. Many of the big venues, and a lot of small local ones, were ground breaking in their own time.

At least, that's the way I remember it from the mid to late sixties onwards.

One thing that really p's me off is DJ's playing what they refer to as Youth Club tracks. Bollocks! When they were originally played they were the business and bloody hard to find. I can only presume that said DJ's were still in short trousers at the time.

Anyways, 2 that spring to mind for me are Michael - C.O.D.'s, and Hey Girl Don't Bother Me - Tams.

Never hear the Tams HGDBM now, but I remember paying a weeks wages for it and was proud to own 1 of only 3 copies that I knew of (in my little world). The other 2 were at the Cally in Dunstable, and The George, Wilby, Northants. Walking into The George with that playing and everyone clapping along was the nearest thing to heaven for me.

-Kev

feck me kev you must well old,I'm 51 and just too young to go to the george at wilby...went to BLETSOE just once before it was shut down and a young regular at the nags head in wollaston

Just to clear up any 100 Club/Stafford misconceptions. The original 6TS nights were very much 60s Mod Soul nights as inspired by original mod Randy Cozens and some great London based soul DJs who knew their stuff. So we played mid-tempo, R&B, Latin influenced and cool mid tempo numbers out of choice, not because we had run out of stompers. They were evening nights with beer as opposed to nighters with gear and the mix was brilliant.

When we changed to nighters out of necessity, we reverted to a more Northern formula to match the new hours, after a few years the scene had stagnated somewhat and the newies of Stafford revitalised everything. Being more of a soul fan than a Northern fan, I personally took the beat ballad, Latin and R&B type records and added them to my play list. We kept the classic dance style records but personally i didn't go for the manic dancers like She's Fire that some of the Stafford crowd liked (I'd stopped taking doobs by then!). The master tape discoveries from Scepter Wand and RCA etc, meant we could play great new discoveries like Magic Touch, Torture, Ooh It Hurts Me in the classic uptempo style but could also spin What's With This Loneliness, Willie Kendrick's She'll Be Leaving You and The TKOs Make Up Your Mind.

So we went mid-tempo at times out of choice not necessity and still played brilliant new classic stompers. A case in point was me swapping Ernestine Eady with Butch for Cleveland Robinson Love Is A Trap. Bad economic sense but I don't regret it and played Cleveland much more than I would have Ernestine Eady because I love one and am indifferent to t'other.

hey hey STARLIGHT ROOM WEST HAMSTEAD....WHAT A PLACE

THE BEGINNING OF THE RARE SOULSCENE

Hopefully in 2008

we still havent got to the origanal point have we?can we name "scene" changing tunes ,at different times eras or not? how about "pyramid" soul bros inc for "about 84?anyone?

Pete Smith's fave, the Carstairs for me! Not only a break in tempo from the 100mph, but the first 70's type tune to become massive in the scene. I can remember the atmosphere it generated at Wigan, a perfect venue for the haunting intro that just echoed around the hall.

When I look back on Wigan, thinking of the Carstairs being played always evokes memories of the place. A truly seminal record.

we still havent got to the origanal point have we?can we name "scene" changing tunes ,at different times eras or not? how about "pyramid" soul bros inc for "about 84?anyone?

On a serious note for me i remember around 1984/1985 when Rob marriott was running the "stewarts banqueting suite later known has the trotters in mansfield",that was when i remember rob playing rare stuff wich he was collecting from various sources and had not been heard anywhere else apart from stafford/ clifton hall etc.There will be folk on here who will well remember him well and what tunes he was playing.

On a serious note for me i remember around 1984/1985 when Rob marriott was running the "stewarts banqueting suite later known has the trotters in mansfield",that was when i remember rob playing rare stuff wich he was collecting from various sources and had not been heard anywhere else apart from stafford/ clifton hall etc.There will be folk on here who will well remember him well and what tunes he was playing.

What about those who can't remember - toons?

pre 80's ie Wigan era wasn't by any means all uptempo anyhow! I think the 'stompers' brigade have the rose-tinted glasses syndrome same as the 'oldies are best' merchants.

I seem to remember "Paris blues" "If you ever walk out of my life" "long after tonite is all over" "It really hurts me girl" "Just like the weather" "Raining teardrops" etc being played at Wigan. Hardly 100mph stormers were they? People seem to labour under the mis-conception that mid-tempo means walking pace beat balads. In fact mid-tempo covers a broad spectrum from the slowish Monique "If you love me, show me" to the bouncy Ruby "Feminine ingenuity". Neither 100mph stormers but very differing tempo requiring a diferent dance stlye or speed of footwork, yet I would put 'em both in the mid-tempo bracket, IMHO. Wheel, Torch, Wigan, Stafford all played a mix of tempos, and newies/oldies. It's only recently that the narrow minded are DEMANDING venues play all up-tempo, all oldies, or all R&B etc. Thats whats spoiling things IMHO!

Spot on

Manus

now we.re getting somewhere! how about "magic touch"melba moore about 86? anyone

I did put that in the list I posted little earlier, great record!!

truly seminal record.

Semenal you mean

what about jackie day-naughty boy, wasnt that first spun in the early 80s ? i may be wrong though

what about jackie day-naughty boy, wasnt that first spun in the early 80s ? i may be wrong though

Shirley Matthews and somethings c/p 1984 ..modernsoulsucks can confirm

what about jackie day-naughty boy, wasnt that first spun in the early 80s ? i may be wrong though

covered up by Guy as Shirley Matthews.

we still havent got to the origanal point have we?can we name "scene" changing tunes ,at different times eras or not? how about "pyramid" soul bros inc for "about 84?anyone?

Hi Doog,

An interesting thread but in my opinion you're looking for something that doesn't exist. I can only think of one record that was so far removed from anything already played that it made people sit up and take notice and even that 45 has grown mythically out of proportion to it's actual influence on 'the scene'. The Carstairs - It Really Does Hurt Me Girl. Having said that one of the biggest records of 77/78 was Dooley Silverspoon's Game Players and I would have thought that record would have gained plays without the door being opened by the Carstairs.

It'd be interesting to hear why you nominated "Pyramid" as scene changing? To my ears it's actually a retro sounding record that borrows heavily, stylewise at least, from many records played for years before it.

Whilst pm`ing one of the members on s/s yesterday, we touched on the subject of wich records started the rare soul scene as we know it today, would be intresting to hear your views on this, we came up with cecil washington & john & the wierdest?

Was'nt (No Time) the original play side years ago of John & The Weirdest before it got flipped if my memory serves me right.

cheers Ruffsounds

Well as the guy who turned up Jackie Day the phrase "scene changing record" never occured to me.It was more like "Hey this sounds like a Mirwood 45". I remember finding that Linda&Pretenders and sold it to Guy as a kinda Frankie&Classicals type sound. To me both just fitted in with what had gone before.

I think with the exception of the Carstairs we may be inventing artificial cut-off points that didn't actually exist.

From what I remember of the end of Wigan to the start of Stafford the "problem" was that the 70's/80's 45s had come to dominate the playlists and dj's such as Sam and Richard had appeared to lose interest in 60's,citing the usual "drying up" argument and lack of quality.

My mate Dave Withers and I disagreed, as did those termed the 60's Mafia, and Dave and I had a go at dj-ing with a predominantly 60's playlist. A lot of our playlist were Wigan 45s that were popular at the end there such as Executive IV,John&Weirdest,Classics,Combinations {Kell-mac] and some that had been tried but failed to take off big-time such as Del-Tours,Royal Robins,Topics[Dream]. Others were our own such as Limelights,Monique,Phoenetics,Combinations{Kim-Tone], "What's your game"and of course the unissued Motown. Others I forget.

Whatever, they were all IMO quality 45s that weren't being heard that much. To be frank an uphill struggle against the likes of King Tutt and we jacked it and it took Guy and Keb to really persevere and change it around to restore a balance.

I don't think there was a difference in 45s played at Stafford and previous clubs. People mention beat ballads and midtempo stuff which of course there were but then Barbara McNair was huge at Wigan and right from the start the Tams was always a slow shuffle. OK a tinge of Latin influenced by Adey's R&B nights but then we always had "El Watusi".

So I'd say that the rare soul thing has not really changed since it's inception. A mixture of styles and tempos. However I think Dave Thorley by giving us and Keb,Guy,Rob,Butch etc a stab at it,when he coulda stuck with Richard for one, did give the whole thing a new lease of life.

ROD

I thought it was more to do with the same oldies being played everywhere Rod . Keb being famous for his Darrell Banks stunt ?

Well said Rod--good post!

Tony Coleby

Well as the guy who turned up Jackie Day the phrase "scene changing record" never occured to me.It was more like "Hey this sounds like a Mirwood 45". I remember finding that Linda&Pretenders and sold it to Guy as a kinda Frankie&Classicals type sound. To me both just fitted in with what had gone before.

I think with the exception of the Carstairs we may be inventing artificial cut-off points that didn't actually exist.

From what I remember of the end of Wigan to the start of Stafford the "problem" was that the 70's/80's 45s had come to dominate the playlists and dj's such as Sam and Richard had appeared to lose interest in 60's,citing the usual "drying up" argument and lack of quality.

My mate Dave Withers and I disagreed, as did those termed the 60's Mafia, and Dave and I had a go at dj-ing with a predominantly 60's playlist. A lot of our playlist were Wigan 45s that were popular at the end there such as Executive IV,John&Weirdest,Classics,Combinations {Kell-mac] and some that had been tried but failed to take off big-time such as Del-Tours,Royal Robins,Topics[Dream]. Others were our own such as Limelights,Monique,Phoenetics,Combinations{Kim-Tone], "What's your game"and of course the unissued Motown. Others I forget.

Whatever, they were all IMO quality 45s that weren't being heard that much. To be frank an uphill struggle against the likes of King Tutt and we jacked it and it took Guy and Keb to really persevere and change it around to restore a balance.

I don't think there was a difference in 45s played at Stafford and previous clubs. People mention beat ballads and midtempo stuff which of course there were but then Barbara McNair was huge at Wigan and right from the start the Tams was always a slow shuffle. OK a tinge of Latin influenced by Adey's R&B nights but then we always had "El Watusi".

So I'd say that the rare soul thing has not really changed since it's inception. A mixture of styles and tempos. However I think Dave Thorley by giving us and Keb,Guy,Rob,Butch etc a stab at it,when he coulda stuck with Richard for one, did give the whole thing a new lease of life.

ROD

People mention beat ballads and midtempo stuff which of course there were but then Barbara McNair was huge at Wigan and right from the start the Tams was always a slow shuffle. OK a tinge of Latin influenced by Adey's R&B nights but then we always had "El Watusi".

ROD

That post put it in a good perspective Rod. I'd disagree a bit with the beat ballads though. Barbara McNair wasn't that slow once it got going and was ususally played on UK because it was iconic, rare Motown. The Drifter was another mid tempo play but the likes of Johnny Maestro, Kurt Harris, Tony Mason's 'Take Good care', Trends 'Not Too Old To Cry' and Simmsy's favourite 'Gone Gone' were slower and more ballady (such writing skills!). Slower records were usually only played as enders until then.

Also the 6TS nights weren't R&B nights in the slightest, they just featured some good R&B dancers. It was the 6TS Rhythm 'n' Soul Society and the mix has often been used as a genre by some clubs to describe their music policy. Sorry for being pedantic but we might as well get it all right while we're at it.

Been out for the weekend just got in, firstly i would like to congratulate all who have contributed to this topic some fantastic points have arose in this discussion this is what i used to love about sitting and listening to people in record bars some very intresting reading indeed

Well as the guy who turned up Jackie Day the phrase "scene changing record" never occured to me.It was more like "Hey this sounds like a Mirwood 45". I remember finding that Linda&Pretenders and sold it to Guy as a kinda Frankie&Classicals type sound. To me both just fitted in with what had gone before.

I think with the exception of the Carstairs we may be inventing artificial cut-off points that didn't actually exist.

From what I remember of the end of Wigan to the start of Stafford the "problem" was that the 70's/80's 45s had come to dominate the playlists and dj's such as Sam and Richard had appeared to lose interest in 60's,citing the usual "drying up" argument and lack of quality.

My mate Dave Withers and I disagreed, as did those termed the 60's Mafia, and Dave and I had a go at dj-ing with a predominantly 60's playlist. A lot of our playlist were Wigan 45s that were popular at the end there such as Executive IV,John&Weirdest,Classics,Combinations {Kell-mac] and some that had been tried but failed to take off big-time such as Del-Tours,Royal Robins,Topics[Dream]. Others were our own such as Limelights,Monique,Phoenetics,Combinations{Kim-Tone], "What's your game"and of course the unissued Motown. Others I forget.

Whatever, they were all IMO quality 45s that weren't being heard that much. To be frank an uphill struggle against the likes of King Tutt and we jacked it and it took Guy and Keb to really persevere and change it around to restore a balance.

I don't think there was a difference in 45s played at Stafford and previous clubs. People mention beat ballads and midtempo stuff which of course there were but then Barbara McNair was huge at Wigan and right from the start the Tams was always a slow shuffle. OK a tinge of Latin influenced by Adey's R&B nights but then we always had "El Watusi".

So I'd say that the rare soul thing has not really changed since it's inception. A mixture of styles and tempos. However I think Dave Thorley by giving us and Keb,Guy,Rob,Butch etc a stab at it,when he coulda stuck with Richard for one, did give the whole thing a new lease of life.

ROD

[/quote

I think that's a sensible summary Rod.

I think most posters overlooked - possibly intentionally was the huge impact the programming of modern records had on the scene which you raise in your post. From the latter day of wigan Richard and Sam et al. I remember Richard introducing a record at the casino saying it perfectly bridged the 60's and 70's - it may have been Omni Keys to the City - which I seem to recall was covered up at the time. I agree with you that there had always been different styles and tempos of music played - but the whole modern thing was far different. It had far reaching effects too - and led to the huge rift in the scene musically - that existed for a while - and still exists to a degree. As you say the next real impact musically was Keb and Guy and the whole 60's mafia thing.

I will add everyone that this post is my opinion and experience - I have no intention of having an argument with anyone about it cos I can't be arsed today as I have a bad head. However, if anyone would like an argument tomorrow pm me!

OK Adey,I sit here corrected, although to be pedantic myself Im not so sure that Kurt Harris is slower than Ray Pollard!!

I meant to put in my original post that my view is obviously predicated on my club experience and as I was lucky enough to go to the Pendulem in my formative years and kinda started off collecting UK releases I did get to hear a lot of downtempo sounds that you wouldn't hear at say ,the Torch.

First hour at the Pendulem on a Friday and their Sunday night do's were full of such 45s.

ROD

was we heavily influenced by the/our djs at whatever time?but doesnt the dancefloor rule?does our taste change?anybody?

Suppose the dance floor does rule ......but at the same time if a DJ does'nt clear the floor a few times ..then he must be playing to safe....I think this is the biggest problem these days ,scared to death of clearing the floor,there are many tunes I like ,but just cos Im not dancing to em,dont mean Im not enjoying em

Bazza

Suppose the dance floor does rule ......but at the same time if a DJ does'nt clear the floor a few times ..then he must be playing to safe....I think this is the biggest problem these days ,scared to death of clearing the floor,there are many tunes I like ,but just cos Im not dancing to em,dont mean Im not enjoying em

Bazza

  Even the biggest tunes cleared the floor at one time, 'til folks got to know 'em. DJ's have to take a risk with lesser known/unknown stuff. You cannot play to the floor all the time, because the floor IMHO, only wants what it knows.

didnt "back up train" al greens wheel classic make no1???

No, it was released in 1971 on the back of "Tired of being alone" I was instrumental

in getting "Back up train" released I knew Chris Denning of Bell Records and suggested

they release it, which they did. Didn't make the charts I'm afraid. Flip it over, nice

mid/uptempo choon, got small plays at very very early Mecca days.

Chris L

covered up by Guy as Shirley Matthews.

had the 2nd or 3rd known copy in 1986.....when it was rare

had the 2nd or 3rd known copy in 1986.....when it was rare

held one in my hands a few weeks back, was bloody lovely feeling, had to give it back though !

the story I got told of the Tams HGDBM was thus

Ralph of ralph records here in Manchester was actually selling say 25 copies a week on Import of said record purely by demand from the Clubs (which is how it should Be)

he then phones EMI in London and tries to descibe how Import sales are not giving you a chart position and you are sitting on a Goldmine if you would re-release it on English probe

the rest as they say is history

Ralph's!! That's where I got mine from. Later design ABC which later I figured was a repress as Ralph used to sell all the early boots.

ROD