I have noticed this on event flyers more & more lately , I believe that it should never have come to this , not when there are hundreds of DJ's and collecters with proper records willing to do a spot.

Should venues that play pressings state the fact that they do this on there flyers ?

A mate of mine has a brilliant collection he DJ's very rarely and another who 'Dj's' every other week with pressings, I reckon promoters should be held responsible for this and stop letting mates do a spot and leave it to them that are serious about there vinyl.

I realise that some will think this is all about 'politics' and give the old argument that you dont need to take it so seriously , but i do take my music seriously and so do most on here.

What do you reckon ?

Anyone with records is a dj nowadays - I preferred it back in the old days when the dj's were a league apart from us mere mortals.

Last time I dj'd anywhere I played both The Ster-Phonics and Court Davis off carvers, I had the originals, sold them, made copies for myself, nobody complained and if they had I'd have told them to get a life.

I find I'm beginning to agree with you Pete

I saw this thread and thought "not again!" but actually this has been running round my tiny brain for some months. My thoughts are:

I like OV but that's just me, that's what I like. I like DJ crosses on labels but some people don't.

I think the originals only policy will either prevent the music crossing to a new generation or die if it does.

"Only those with the records can DJ" - God forbid! This promotes knob waving and inflates record prices, not necessarily in that order.

The other day I looked at my Kent and other compilation LP's gathering dust and realised I now see them as potential funds for buying records. But they wouldn't really bring in much so I wondered if a better use might be to give them to somebody much younger than me who might play them to a much younger audience who might think "wow, what's this" and maybe appreciate the music without knowing the price or giving a monkeys as to what the label is.

Ignore me I'm just getting old and am prone to having an afternoon nap.

you replied on the aberdeen allnighter thread didn't you ? a couple of the aberdeen guys said openly that a couple of re-issues are played one of whom put up a playlist with stardust and sevens listed as labels, that's their thing and it works well for them ....but it's not mine

as a promoter of an event in scotland i know that a lot of travellers who come to us class it as a lifestyle choice that they and we play original vinyl (as do richie and the lads , the dundee boys , brian and lenny at bonnyrigg , the blacktrackin' guys etc) so it's important that we make a point of saying we do so those who are considering travelling up north know where they can get OVO and where they can't (if that kinda thing isn't important to them)

yes i said aberdeen allnighter was great night!! as i said am not a collector or dj just a punter, been at a few nights edinburgh dundee etc and never knew it was ovo and never cared but each to there own, maybe thats why aberdeen sept 2009 allnighter now being advertised as ovo, i guess thats on the back of the last aberdeen allnighter thread?? im just glad to be out and about having a good time :-))

must say i have never owned a cd player cant deal with cds i use ovo where possible but think the whole argument is pathetic ionly have vinyl after 40years of collecting cant break the habit but still the music comes first it allways will

on possibly a side note , for those who don't care about original vinyl for when they dj etc , i have often wondered .... why buy vinyl at all ?

I can't ever remember going home from a venue and saying "Well that was a great night but it was ruined for me when somebody played a reissue, completely bought the night down and ruined the evening, damn those reissues"

How much did you pay to get in?

Not so long back I paid about a fiver to get in to a soul night and it was pressings a go go. 150 capacity, fiver to get in, I wouldn't make a fuss... Twelve quid at a nighter, different story. Credibility plays a big part, as Mark Bicknell said about rare soul dj & tools for the job. Originals are always going to be rarer than pressings.

A collector and dj of rare original vinyl is worthy of respect and deserving of a decent cover charge. Any schmo can own and play pressings, they are not worthy of any respect in a collecting sense and do not sit well within a rare soul scene.

We've all stood with a dj or collector and marvelled, maybe handled a particulary rare item. They have that wow factor. Pressings have none of that, they are shit.

I've just had a Sir Henry Newton,cherry tree falling on my head moment.

The people who are the Dinosaurs are the ones who want OV.

They are the ones holding back the scene. .

Why can't they shut up and make do with any old sh*te in any format?

Kev the Stegasaurus.

They are the ones holding back the scene. .

In what way?

Surely if it's just "what's in the grooves that counts" then those grooves may as well be original? It's also true that in order to keep playing new originals, the OVO DJ has to dig deeper and deeper in order to search out new or underplayed sounds.

The bootleg DJ will always be following the OVO DJ as the latter will "break" sounds which will then be bootlegged for the former to play. The same is true of 60's, 70's, modern or any vinyl based scene for that matter.

Perhaps we have two scenes now, the rare soul scene (OVO) and the nostalgia scene (largely boots)?

IMHO

John

How much did you pay to get in?

Not so long back I paid about a fiver to get in to a soul night and it was pressings a go go. 150 capacity, fiver to get in, I wouldn't make a fuss... Twelve quid at a nighter, different story. Credibility plays a big part, as Mark Bicknell said about rare soul dj & tools for the job. Originals are always going to be rarer than pressings.

A collector and dj of rare original vinyl is worthy of respect and deserving of a decent cover charge. Any schmo can own and play pressings, they are not worthy of any respect in a collecting sense and do not sit well within a rare soul scene.

We've all stood with a dj or collector and marvelled, maybe handled a particulary rare item. They have that wow factor. Pressings have none of that, they are shit.

I sell mainly original records. I've had more original records than a lot of people have had hot dinners. I cannot afford to keep the originals. So most of my own records are pressings and they may be shit to you but they are a lifetime of memories for me, so up yours

I've just had a Sir Henry Newton,cherry tree falling on my head moment.

The people who are the Dinosaurs are the ones who want OV.

They are the ones holding back the scene. .

Why can't they shut up and make do with any old sh*te in any format?

Kev the Stegasaurus.

Always and always will be a tricky subject is it on orig or not?.Personal opinion big respect,, any Djs playing any tune on original vinyl,the collector has spent alot of time tracking that perticular tune.

Maybe Big & ultra rare tunes with only "limited ownership" could be an exception & played at a venue on Cd "stated when played,", but some how i dont think so .

on possibly a side note , for those who don't care about original vinyl for when they dj etc , i have often wondered .... why buy vinyl at all ?

Are you GENUINELY that short-sighted that you have to ask such a ridiculous question?

the old arguement about not being able to afford original vinyl is bollox,those that fill their boxes with boots and carvers DON'T WANT THE ORIGINALS ANYWAY by buying bootlegs ect they can become dj's.....and there lies the crux of the problem .Luckily for those that attend the few proper venues this ain't ever gonna be a problem.....cause they have proper dj's.with proper records.

....I saw this thread and thought "not again!" ...

I think the originals only policy will either prevent the music crossing to a new generation or die if it does.

....

Just like you I was going to ignore this already so (too?) often discussed question..but once more I felt the need to express my point of view as I really don`t like the facts that there are

1). far too many people getting away with playing boots and carvers in general

2). far too many people playing the same identical old boring tunes as everybody else is and still believe they are DJ`s on an underground scene where the DJ`s duty from day one was not only to entertain but also to push the whole thing forward with new interestiung stuff (which is obviously a hard nut to crack when only the tested stuff gets booted -thanks god!- )

and

3. far too many people believing they are DJ`s when in fact the do not even have a half decent collection at all which I still believe is necessary if you are serious about 2).

I say stop the DJ inflation and let the guys and girls do the job who really have sth to say by playing the real thing, semi-known, unheard, the boundaries pushing, real stuff...give them Epitome Of Sound boys and girls a rest (I still like the record..but not at a venue anymore please).

And furthermore keep them bootleg and carvers playing dudes a life-time rest please. That would guarantee a healthier scene. IMO.

There are so so many tunes between 10 to 100 USD a young gun could obtain these days (even easier these days with ebay and all) to play a really good and interesting set that I don`t think the fact that records are becoming more dear will bring this scene to an end..its the inflation of ("bad") DJ`s and the inflation of far too many venues which will "help" letting it die. IMO

Marc

the old arguement about not being able to afford original vinyl is bollox,those that fill their boxes with boots and carvers DON'T WANT THE ORIGINALS ANYWAY by buying bootlegs ect they can become dj's.....and there lies the crux of the problem .Luckily for those that attend the few proper venues this ain't ever gonna be a problem.....cause they have proper dj's.with proper records.

Right then, everybody who has posted on this thread who is anti bootleg/re-issue & has NEVER owned a boot or re-issue shout up now & be honest.

Not many of you I bet

Right then, everybody who has posted on this thread who is anti bootleg/re-issue & has NEVER owned a boot or re-issue shout up now & be honest.

Not many of you I bet

It's not about owning bootlegs though is it?

It's about playing them out at a venue.

2). far too many people playing the same identical old boring tunes as everybody else is and still believe they are DJ`s on an underground scene where the DJ`s duty from day one was not only to entertain but also to push the whole thing forward with new interestiung stuff (which is obviously a hard nut to crack when only the tested stuff gets booted -thanks god!- )

It's not about owning bootlegs though is it?

It's about playing them out at a venue.

Is it though?

Why slag off a DJ for playing something that you have got yourself (don't mean you personally Joan).

Smells of double standards to me.

Can't believe I'm getting involved in a Northern bootleg thread

Are you GENUINELY that short-sighted that you have to ask such a ridiculous question?

why is it a ridiculous question ? a person playing a re-issue is playing a facsimile of the original and in some cases a look a like of the original ...... what for ? to propagate the perception that they have the original ??? by playing cd's they would at least be admitting that they don't care about format instead they try and fool themselves into thinking they are something they aren't

Why slag off a DJ for playing something that you have got yourself (don't mean you personally Joan).

Smells of double standards to me.

Don`t think its double standards at all. Its two totally different things to have a boot at home (maybe only until the real thing comes along) and to play a boot out. In my VIP box there sits an Andantes carver...don`t think I will ever have the original but I like to have my Motown near to complete. Wouldn`t bring it closer than 2 feet to my DJ box though...

Marc

Edited April 13, 200916 yr by Marc Forrest

Don`t think its double standards at all. Its two totally different things to have a boot at home (maybe only until the real thing comes along) and to play a boot out. In my VIP box there sits an Andantes carver...don`t think I will ever have the original but I like to have my Motown near to complete. Wouldn`t bring it closer than 2 feet to my DJ box though...

Marc

Why carve it in the first place though?

Not certain but I'm sure the Andantes has had a legitimate release on a Motown CD & if you had bought that some of your cash would have gone to the artist.

Why carve it in the first place though?

Not certain but I'm sure the Andantes has had a legitimate release on a Motown CD & if you had bought that some of your cash would have gone to the artist.

I did not carve it and I also have the Motown "unrel." CDs (where as far as I remember its not on) as well but always like to have it on 7" as I don`t have a CD player. True.

Edited April 13, 200916 yr by Marc Forrest

I sell mainly original records. I've had more original records than a lot of people have had hot dinners. I cannot afford to keep the originals. So most of my own records are pressings and they may be shit to you but they are a lifetime of memories for me, so up yours

What you sell and what you have owned has little bearing on the point I was making. Unless that is you are charging people twelve pounds to get in to your house to hear your shit records up yours.

What you sell and what you have owned has little bearing on the point I was making. Unless that is you are charging people twelve pounds to get in to your house to hear your shit records up yours.

The point you were making is that pressings are shit apparently, whats that got to do with me, nothing, so why did you quote my post?

p.s. £15 actually

The point you were making is that pressings are shit apparently, whats that got to do with me, nothing, so why did you quote my post?

p.s. £15 actually

No the point I was making was about paying decent money to hear bogus records. You had said you'd never returned home with the hump that someone had played pressings. That's why I quoted you. Read back whilst I nip out for ciggs.

Someone on this very forum explained to me the other week why the O.V.O. thing is such a contentious issue. He reckoned that O.V.O. underpins the whole eco-system of the scene - especially from the record dealers persepective which I guess makes sense. But I still don't think it's as back and white as some people make out. Not playing a newly discovered track which has never been on vinyl before off a CD is just plain daft - some of the best tunes I've heard in the last couple of years have never been released on vinyl, so what's the deal with playing them out?

But I still think that you have to be pretty well-off to play a decent O.V.O. set that will satisfy a full dancefloor at most gigs. You'd need at least £150K to get with the big boys and have a popular hotbox surely? The £5-£10 sounds do not a full dancefloor make - with the greatest of respect the majority of those records are not necessarily the ones I wanna travel 200 miles to hear......

It is pretty contentious though. In the early hours of this morning @ Crossfire Keb Darge announced he was putting a CD on and we almost got stampeded by the exodus from the dancefloor........it turns out he was just getting the decks moved so he could actually see the audience and vice versa and had to get the P.A. guys to put a CD on whilst the decks were moved. Needless to say normal O.V.O. service was resumed pretty quickly.......

Ian D

why is it a ridiculous question ? a person playing a re-issue is playing a facsimile of the original and in some cases a look a like of the original ...... what for ? to propagate the perception that they have the original ??? by playing cd's they would at least be admitting that they don't care about format instead they try and fool themselves into thinking they are something they aren't

Were you asking 'why buy vinyl at all' question only in relation to DJ'ing?

Is it though?

Why slag off a DJ for playing something that you have got yourself (don't mean you personally Joan).

Smells of double standards to me.

Can't believe I'm getting involved in a Northern bootleg thread

If people want to buy bootlegs then good luck to them. I don't buy them btw

I personally feel if you are going to get up there and play to paying punters, then play originals.

Not everyone feels that way. But I do.

Double standards? Where?

I did not carve it and I also have the Motown "unrel." CDs (where as far as I remember its not on) as well but always like to have it on 7" as I don`t have a CD player. True.

You kidding Marc? If you ain't got a CD player & you're ever over here in the North of England you can have my old system as it's just collecting dust.

You're missing out on some great music fella.

Were you asking 'why buy vinyl at all' question only in relation to DJ'ing?

Thought the 'Groundhog Day' thread was on EMS Roger

If people want to buy bootlegs then good luck to them. I don't buy them btw

I personally feel if you are going to get up there and play to paying punters, then play originals.

Not everyone feels that way. But I do.

Double standards? Where?

Know you only play original vinyl Joan & I love you to bits for it

Point I'm making though is money in the artist's pocket matters most to me.

Always has & always will.

Were you asking 'why buy vinyl at all' question only in relation to DJ'ing?

not really , i'm not a collector as such and for me if i want to listen to a tune i listen to the mp3 at home so i can't see the point in collecting vinyl that isn't original ...in fact i don't see the point in collecting anything that isn't original .

In what way?

Surely if it's just "what's in the grooves that counts" then those grooves may as well be original? It's also true that in order to keep playing new originals, the OVO DJ has to dig deeper and deeper in order to search out new or underplayed sounds.

The bootleg DJ will always be following the OVO DJ as the latter will "break" sounds which will then be bootlegged for the former to play. The same is true of 60's, 70's, modern or any vinyl based scene for that matter.

Perhaps we have two scenes now, the rare soul scene (OVO) and the nostalgia scene (largely boots)?

IMHO

John

Hi John,just to clear up -the post was totally tongue in cheek

not really , i'm not a collector as such and for me if i want to listen to a tune i listen to the mp3 at home so i can't see the point in collecting vinyl that isn't original ...in fact i don't see the point in collecting anything that isn't original .

Well, I've been a collector for over 40 years and sometimes I just don't have the budget for super rare originals. If I had a spare £50K I may well put a bid in for Frank Wilson but until I get enough dosh I'll just have to make do with the reissue. I'd prefer not to deprive myself of the aesthetic value of listening to the music if possible. Plus Frank will actually receive royalties as well.....

Same with Warhol's artwork which I also love. Unfortunately it goes without saying that Charles Saatchi is likely to outbid me on any Warhol originals which are still knocking around but the fact that I can't have a £15,000,000 original on my wall in no way deprives me of appreciating his art.

We can't all own an original Mona Lisa Davie.........

Ian D

Well, I've been a collector for over 40 years and sometimes I just don't have the budget for super rare originals. If I had a spare £50K I may well put a bid in for Frank Wilson but until I get enough dosh I'll just have to make do with the reissue. I'd prefer not to deprive myself of the aesthetic value of listening to the music if possible. Plus Frank will actually receive royalties as well.....

Same with Warhol's artwork which I also love. Unfortunately it goes without saying that Charles Saatchi is likely to outbid me on any Warhol originals which are still knocking around but the fact that I can't have a £15,000,000 original on my wall in no way deprives me of appreciating his art.

We can't all own an original Mona Lisa Davie.........

Ian D

No, but we can get a print from Partners .

Edited April 13, 200916 yr by KevH

if everyone can play boots and carvers and it's all ok.....then we might as well ALL be dj's,but then who wants to go to a venue and hear all the tunes you've already got at home on carvers and boots.....if ya ain't got the tunes rare or otherwise......FOOK OFF.....it's funny how all the wannabe's who do play boots and carvers and think it's fine and dandy.........WON'T COME ON HERE AND ANNOUNCE THEY DO WITH PRIDE.....why?......cause they have shame and are ashamed........so come on lets have ya

Said the self same thing on the Soul Snobs thread the other week Tezza

Boots, Re-issues, CDs. I could do a spot to.

Its a Rare Soul Scene for fux sake

Strange, when the records these so called DJs are playing were big, there would have been an

uproar at venues if not played on an original

Said the self same thing on the Soul Snobs thread the other week Tezza

Boots, Re-issues, CDs. I could do a spot to.

Its a Rare Soul Scene for fux sake

Strange, when the records these so called DJs are playing were big, there would have been an

uproar at venues if not played on an original

I can play a bit of football as well,,,,funny......... Fergie's never come a knocking.

Maybe there's a difference between Sunday League and Premiership?

Come on...4 plus pages on this already?

Discussed to death

Wasn't Groundhog Day on yesterday?

Where's Bill Murray when you need him?

a person playing a re-issue is playing a facsimile of the original and in some cases a look a like of the original ...... what for ? to propagate the perception that they have the original ??? by playing cd's they would at least be admitting that they don't care about format instead they try and fool themselves into thinking they are something they aren't

There is something very true in this statement about the importance and value of authenticity and honesty.

Richard

Is it though?

Why slag off a DJ for playing something that you have got yourself (don't mean you personally Joan).

Smells of double standards to me.

Can't believe I'm getting involved in a Northern bootleg

thread

Cunnie, the point is whats being served up, to the paying public

This is a Rare Soul Scene or should be and could with my pressings,

CDs etc play as good if not better spot than these wannabes

As you know i choose to travel many miles week in week out to

hear the best, playing what i consider IMO the best music on

original vinyl No Double Standards, playing music on whatever

to yourself in your front room. When i bought my pressings i could not afford

the originals, like many others. We wern't rushing out in the 70s to

get a spot to play our cheap pressings because it was a Rare Scene

and would have been totally unacceptable.

Just a couple of points on this subject. Pete S keeps saying that there is no difference between originals and boots....well I beg to differ Pete. I bought a couple of boots when I first started collecting again ....... both were very rare on original, and I wanted to record them on mini disc for home use, as I didn't have them on cd......both were of such terrible sound quality that I gave them away without recording them. I'd rather not have them than listen to such lousy recordings.

Also Pete. I remember a while ago you posting up a little home movie of you going through your record box of original records.....why weren't you proudly showing us your boots? or were they carvers with bootleg labels?

And as Davie said earlier....I have more respect for promoters who play off cd's at local nights. At least they aren't pretending to be something they aren't....

I'm with Mark Bicknell, Adam and Joan

Phil.

Just a couple of points on this subject. Pete S keeps saying that there is no difference between originals and boots....well I beg to differ Pete. I bought a couple of boots when I first started collecting again ....... both were very rare on original, and I wanted to record them on mini disc for home use, as I didn't have them on cd......both were of such terrible sound quality that I gave them away without recording them. I'd rather not have them than listen to such lousy recordings.

Not all though Phil, some boots are better quality than the originals or at least as good as.

To play devil's advocate i heard not so long ago at a venue someone play a knackered original of Rose Batiste's 'Hit & run', sounded absolutely awful but it was an original, it would have sounded clearer if they'd played a better quality boot or reissue.

Not advocating the playing of boots but i don't think the issue is black & white.

I really think it depends what do you go to & who's djing, Lifeline for instance you'd expect nothing but the real mccoy however some other dos that get listed on here i wouldn't be in the bit surprised if someone played a boot or a reissue.

I don't think it's that difficult to know what's what, just vote with your feet where you want to go.

Simon

When i bought my pressings i could not afford

the originals, like many others. We wern't rushing out in the 70s to

get a spot to play our cheap pressings because it was a Rare Scene

and would have been totally unacceptable.

Very good point that actually

Also Pete. I remember a while ago you posting up a little home movie of you going through your record box of original records.....why weren't you proudly showing us your boots? or were they carvers with bootleg labels?

Yes I spent 3 years making exact facsimiles of all the labels, cut them out and stuck them all on, and I'd have got away with it if it hadn't been for you meddling kids.

The real answer is because my pressings are for me to play for my own amusement and nobody would be interested in seeing them and I wouldn't be interested in showing anyone them.

I watched this again and there are actually two carvers in there, Ralph Graham and The Hytones. Oops!

">

Not advocating the playing of boots but i don't think the issue is black & white.

One thing that is black & white is that the manufacture and sale of Bootlegs is illegal.

They are counterfeit, pirate copies and they should neither be encouraged nor promoted.

That is the overriding principle as far as I'm concerned... and all the rest (its a rare scene, bollox) is propaganda.

As for the playing of Bootlegs at a local oldies night, I can see how it comes about and, lets face it, as many of the classics were done 30 odd years ago that particular genie is well out of the bottle and the damage, to lost sales, already done.

Certainly, 'vinyl' DJ's should always aim to play original vinyl. But those who play the occasional 30 odd year old pressing of a monster classic, to lift an oldies night, should probably not be hung for their actions.

That privilege should have been reserved for the bootleggers.

Sean

What I can't understand why there's never been an outcry over those white labels being sold on Ebay - no actual record, they just list a title then if someone buys it, they cut it onto vinyl.

One thing that is black & white is that the manufacture and sale of Bootlegs is illegal.

They are counterfeit, pirate copies and they should neither be encouraged nor promoted.

That is the overriding principle as far as I'm concerned... and all the rest (its a rare scene, bollox) is propaganda.

As for the playing of Bootlegs at a local oldies night, I can see how it comes about and, lets face it, as many of the classics were done 30 odd years ago that particular genie is well out of the bottle and the damage, to lost sales, already done.

Certainly, 'vinyl' DJ's should always aim to play original vinyl. But those who play the occasional 30 odd year old pressing of a monster classic, to lift an oldies night, should probably not be hung for their actions.

That privilege should have been reserved for the bootleggers.

Sean

Nail, head, hit

youre all missing the point ,its all about the actual music not a paper label .the artists dont give a toss what colour the label is.do you go to venues to dance or to talk about record labels like nerds? get real or youre all becoming stamp collectors

But thats your opinion !!! unfortunate for you your up against people who care and do things proper and how they should be done, i mean would you wear fake clothes, i would never dream of buying somthing that is not the real thing but a copy in poor quality, but then thats only my opinion i might have a lot that will disagree ..Andy.

But thats your opinion !!! unfortunate for you your up against people who care and do things proper and how they should be done, i mean would you wear fake clothes, i would never dream of buying somthing that is not the real thing but a copy in poor quality, but then thats only my opinion i might have a lot that will disagree ..Andy.

Neither would I, but so many people do buy fake clothes because they want to keep up with the Joneses and they can't afford to buy the real thing. And I sit here thinking of a top I've got in my wardrobe which I don't think I've worn more than once, it cost £175 and thinking about it now, thats an absolute disgrace and one of the reasons that I now shop at TKMaxx

I now shop at TKMaxx

me to I stand there for ages waiting fot Girl across the Street to come on...wonder if its a boot.

Edited April 14, 200916 yr by PaulDonnelly

If promoters want punters through the door then surely for those that dont give a fook about the format its played on are going to attend anyway as for them its only about dancing and hearing the tunes they like, IF all the tunes are played on OVO then those that wouldnt attend a bootleg convention possibly would wether its an oldies night or local phone box soul night etc etc

so promoters its easy, play OVO only and you have more chance of people attending

You kidding Marc? If you ain't got a CD player & you're ever over here in the North of England you can have my old system as it's just collecting dust.

You're missing out on some great music fella.

I buy CD`s whenever they do cover tunes I do not know for educational reasons. I stick them in my DVD in my bed room. Thats enough modern High End for me But thanks for your kind offer

Marc