Is this a genuine rariety? I was browsing on Ebay and came across this, Billy Harner - What About The Music - Instrumental.

Bidding currently stands at £255 and it still hasn't reached it's reserve! What value would you put on it considering the vocal version sells for a tenner?

Is this a genuine rariety? I was browsing on Ebay and came across this, Billy Harner - What About The Music - Instrumental.

Bidding currently stands at £255 and it still hasn't reached it's reserve! What value would you put on it considering the vocal version sells for a tenner?

ALWAYS BEEN RARE ONLY A HANDFUL OF COPIES AROUND.THEY HAVE A SMALL PROMO STICKER ON IT IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY.NEVER SEEN ONE FOR SALE.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the rarest of all UK soul records. I'd pay a thousand if I had the money. I've been in the fortunate position to have the vocal and the instrumental in my hands at the same time, courtesy of Mick Smith, and you just cannot tell the difference by looking at them, maybe the run off on one was a millimetre shorter than the other but everything else is identical including the matrix and stamper numbers. Mick told me he got his copy many years ago from some ruffian kid selling records out of an old pram at Portobello market.

There's an urban myth that the version with the instrumental on is part of a 3 track single but that's rubbish.

Anyway I'm going to bid £500 on this so if any of you beat me on it I'll set both the dogs and the baby on you

As far as I'm concerned, this is the rarest of all UK soul records. I'd pay a thousand if I had the money. I've been in the fortunate position to have the vocal and the instrumental in my hands at the same time, courtesy of Mick Smith, and you just cannot tell the difference by looking at them, maybe the run off on one was a millimetre shorter than the other but everything else is identical including the matrix and stamper numbers. Mick told me he got his copy many years ago from some ruffian kid selling records out of an old pram at Portobello market.

There's an urban myth that the version with the instrumental on is part of a 3 track single but that's rubbish.

Anyway I'm going to bid £500 on this so if any of you beat me on it I'll set both the dogs and the baby on you

Id love to have it as well Pete but this is definately a trophy piece cause its only about a 80 secs long unless Mick cut it short when he did me a tape years ago

Truly is truly a rare record, the instrumental version is much shorter than the vocal which is a pity. There is only supposed to be a handfull of copies. Having been fortunate enough to own a copy in the early seventies, the one on ebay at the moment is the first copy I have seen for sale since.The record collector lists a three track demo which I have never seen (does it really exist)?

Is this a genuine rariety? I was browsing on Ebay and came across this, Billy Harner - What About The Music - Instrumental.

Bidding currently stands at £255 and it still hasn't reached it's reserve! What value would you put on it considering the vocal version sells for a tenner?

Certainly rare, without the raraest uk northern release.I have had my copy some 33 years, it was a junk shop find at 20 pence, did not play it for about a month after buying and nearly sold it before realizing it was an instrumental, yes mine has a white sticker with a serial number 001.

mr Ian Clark is selling his copy offers over £750, i can let you have contact deatils if needed.

SHEEP

Certainly rare, without the raraest uk northern release.I have had my copy some 33 years, it was a junk shop find at 20 pence, did not play it for about a month after buying and nearly sold it before realizing it was an instrumental, yes mine has a white sticker with a serial number 001.

mr Ian Clark is selling his copy offers over £750, i can let you have contact deatils if needed.

SHEEP

Aplogies for poor spelling.

Just had a look at ebay, it looks like clarkies copy.

SHEEP

Id love to have it as well Pete but this is definately a trophy piece cause its only about a 80 secs long unless Mick cut it short when he did me a tape years ago

Sounds about right Ted, my sample's only 89 seconds

Bit 'Tough Girl' at the very begining

Without listening I think it fades out just before the second chorus.

Without listening I think it fades out just bef

ore the second chorus.

I only know one person who had this.If i remember it was only about 1min 30secs

One of the rarest U.K. records.About 5 were sent out by mistake but the rest were supposedly destroyed.Who knows, an old record pressing plant employee may be looking to supplement their pension.

All the best

Pete

bit of a holy grail this one, I know of 2 copies - Mike Maguire in Norwich and Mick Smith. I've always wanted it since I heard it a t' Torch, had to be content with an emidisc, which doesn't count.

bit of a holy grail this one, I know of 2 copies - Mike Maguire in Norwich and Mick Smith. I've always wanted it since I heard it a t' Torch, had to be content with an emidisc, which doesn't count.

Looks like Mr Smith is after a second copy, as he is the current highest bidder on ebay, assuming anybody reaches the reserve. !!

SHEEP

It's a rare one alright. Caused a stir when it was first discovered and played out, but apart from the "collectors piece" value the vocal is infinitely superior (IMO).

Is this a genuine rariety? I was browsing on Ebay and came across this, Billy Harner - What About The Music - Instrumental.

Bidding currently stands at £255 and it still hasn't reached it's reserve! What value would you put on it considering the vocal version sells for a tenner?

As far as I'm concerned, this is the rarest of all UK soul records. I'd pay a thousand if I had the money.

Somebody did, it went for £1000!

I first heard the instrumental version on the freeview history channel. I was watching that two men in a trench series. It was playing in the background, whilst the two blokes were cycling round the former site of RAF Hornchurch!

Somebody did, it went for £1000!

I first heard the instrumental version on the freeview history channel. I was watching that two men in a trench series. It was playing in the background, whilst the two blokes were cycling round the former site of RAF Hornchurch!

Any idea who finally bought billy harner.?

Are sure it was the same tune, highly unlikely I would have thought, bearing in mind how rare it is.

SHEEP

Any idea who finally bought billy harner.?

Are sure it was the same tune, highly unlikely I would have thought, bearing in mind how rare it is.

SHEEP

it came out on a cheapish cd years ago,so has been easily available to all if you actually want it, can remember many years ago someone playing it out but no one danced however it wasnt for long as the record is only about a minute and a half long, worth loads for a record that was a mistake by selectadisc in notts, oh and by the way i think its crap sorry ranting a bit , i,ll shut up

Yes I agree it is much inferior to the vocal version and much shorter in length-I was working at Selecta Disc in Nottingham when we asked Kama Sutra to repress 500 copies of the vocal version for us-as it was deleted at the time.When they camein they were identical to the vocal-but I happened to play one before we started selling them.We were really peed off cause they had pressed the instrumental by mistake-so we sent the stock back and they then rushed out the vocal which didn't do anything for them sales wise.To be fair there may have been one or three that didn't get returned!Alan Day was working with us at the time and he may still have one>and obviously I don't know what they did with the 496 returned copies!!!!

Wo

 

Yes I agree it is much inferior to the vocal version and much shorter in length-I was working at Selecta Disc in Nottingham when we asked Kama Sutra to repress 500 copies of the vocal version for us-as it was deleted at the time.When they camein they were identical to the vocal-but I happened to play one before we started selling them.We were really peed off cause they had pressed the instrumental by mistake-so we sent the stock back and they then rushed out the vocal which didn't do anything for them sales wise.To be fair there may have been one or three that didn't get returned!Alan Day was working with us at the time and he may still have one>and obviously I don't know what they did with the 496 returned copies!!!!

Wow Dave it has taken you nine years to reply to this topic!! 

It was featured on the Deep Beats Cd

Last for about a minute and a half

Yes I agree it is much inferior to the vocal version and much shorter in length-I was working at Selecta Disc in Nottingham when we asked Kama Sutra to repress 500 copies of the vocal version for us-as it was deleted at the time.When they camein they were identical to the vocal-but I happened to play one before we started selling them.We were really peed off cause they had pressed the instrumental by mistake-so we sent the stock back and they then rushed out the vocal which didn't do anything for them sales wise.To be fair there may have been one or three that didn't get returned!Alan Day was working with us at the time and he may still have one>and obviously I don't know what they did with the 496 returned copies!!!!

That's the story I heard BUT, the copy I bought back in the early 70s, was off a guy who bought it over the counter in his local record shop. So, some got out there independent of Selecta Disc in Nottingham. Unless of course, this guy bought it from Selecta Disc before they discovered they were all instrumentals and before they shipped them back to Kama Sutra / Polydor. 

It was featured on the Deep Beats Cd

Last for about a minute and a half

 

They must have kept a tape of it then because all the Deep Beats CDs were mastered from tapes (I compiled the series). I think it's the only legit version available since it was originally issued.....

 

https://www.discogs.com/Various-Essential-60s-Northern-Soul-Dancefloor-Classics-Volume-1/release/1008047

 

Ian D 

THAT MAKES SENSE DAVE.............REMEMBER HEARING IT @ TUNSTALL

 

COULD NEVER REMEMBER WHO PLAYED IT......ALL COMING BACK TO ME NOW  

Yes I agree it is much inferior to the vocal version and much shorter in length-I was working at Selecta Disc in Nottingham when we asked Kama Sutra to repress 500 copies of the vocal version for us-as it was deleted at the time.When they camein they were identical to the vocal-but I happened to play one before we started selling them.We were really peed off cause they had pressed the instrumental by mistake-so we sent the stock back and they then rushed out the vocal which didn't do anything for them sales wise.To be fair there may have been one or three that didn't get returned!Alan Day was working with us at the time and he may still have one>and obviously I don't know what they did with the 496 returned copies!!!!

It was featured on the Deep Beats Cd

Last for about a minute and a half

 

1:57 to be precise (as opposed to the 2:37 vocal).

Edited May 29, 20159 yr by Gene-R

Yes I agree it is much inferior to the vocal version and much shorter in length-I was working at Selecta Disc in Nottingham when we asked Kama Sutra to repress 500 copies of the vocal version for us-as it was deleted at the time.When they camein they were identical to the vocal-but I happened to play one before we started selling them.We were really peed off cause they had pressed the instrumental by mistake-so we sent the stock back and they then rushed out the vocal which didn't do anything for them sales wise.To be fair there may have been one or three that didn't get returned!Alan Day was working with us at the time and he may still have one>and obviously I don't know what they did with the 496 returned copies!!!!

 

Hiya Dave-Kev R here. Just adding a bit to the story of the Instrumental. The guy who actually mailed it out for Kama Sutra was label manager Dennis Berger. I met him when he had the same role at Route in 1975(I licensed him The Flasher!). Dennis had sent the vocal over with it's original flip side, but on the tape spool the short instrumental was on first and whoever cut the master clearly didn't follow DB's instructions. It was a just a case of several errors along the production line.

DB mentioned he had one and knew it was a 'collectors' item..........hope he's alive and well and has one for sale

All the best from Arkwright St   

 

here it is.

does anyone have a scan of this elusive disc..

does anyone have a scan of this elusive disc..

 

It's identical to the 'normal' version in every way

I've a feeling there are some subtle differences.

I'll have a look on the PC later, I have some scans of them.

 

Unless someone does it first!

does anyone have a scan of this elusive disc..

Available soon on a well known and updated UK label price guide.   

Well, I've had a look and now I'm not too sure...

 

There was a discussion on Facebook recently about this and a scan was put up of the 'instrumental' copy:

 

Shortly followed by one of the 'vocal':

 

Then it was noticed that the 'instrumental' copy had no production and arranger info writing below the '2013 029 A' release number, whereas the vocal version did have.

 

I've since noticed that the 'instrumental' copy credits it to Cyril Shane Music on the left of the label, just above the date and the vocal credits it to Pedro Music. (The production info being below the date)

 

But now I've tried 'Googling' various images to try and confirm this theory, I'm getting both types showing up and one of them - the 'instrumental' on Pat Brady's site currently for sale.

No mention of it being anything other than the vocal copy!

 

So - unless the scan he used is one he got from the internet and not the actual record, maybe this theory isn't strictly true?

 

Not to say that all the instrumental copies look like the first scan all the same, it's just looking like some vocal copies look like it as well!

 

Anyone with definite info about the layout of the instrumental label might want to answer which layout theirs is though.   

The Instrumental label is identical to "one" of the vocals. Basically you need "Cyril Shane Music" on both sides and a large middle There are about 5 releases of the vocal mixing "Pedro Music" and "Cyril Shane Music", and even a release with a solid middle, but only one variation ticks all the boxes.

 

 

 

Cheers

Mick

 

So I was on the right track with the 'Cyril Shane Music' bit Mick?

 

You need it on Both Sides along with a large middle as well.... I won't go looking for my vocal copy then as that's deffo a solid middle one. I got rid of my dinked one years ago - but it wasn't the instrumental either!   

 

 Cheers for clearing it up a bit more! 

Actually as to the Solid middle vocal, I may be thinking of the pronged one - but either way I know it took me years to actually find the correct Vocal variation, to line up with the instrumental.

 

Although it has no bearing on the case, I've just noticed I had done some touching up on the middles of those scans above. Can't remember why now.

 

Cheers

Mick

Mick, I had Mick Smith's copy in my hand and the vocal in the other and they were identical - but I didn't realise there were alternative versions of the vocal

I know Pete, I didn't realize myself until I also had them side by side, and in my case they were different. As said, It took me ages to find one that matched up. I even began to think (wrongly) that maybe the "Cyril Shane" on both sides was only the Inst, making it easier to spot. But in time I found the correct vocal, so that busted that idea.

Edited June 1, 20159 yr by Mick Holdsworth

When the vocal got released nationally - very shortly after Selecta got vocal copies to replace the instrumental copies - they must have filtered some of the instrumental copies in with the vocal copies as there were a few around in the Midlands. Max Millward remembered getting an instrumental in his vocal stock. Dave Williams interview about it is in  "Northern Soul Stories" along wit Dave Godin review of the vocal  from Blues & Soul 66 "In a similair bag to Chubby Checker's "At The Discotheque", it is a really groovy item that every discotheque should expose, and it on of those uptempo items that seems to have more and more to say each time you hear it" .

There were definitely a few around the midlands as I had one as well. I think mine came direct from selecta disc as I was buying most of my records from there at the time. Sold it in late 70's for next to nothing as didn't realise how scarce it was. My memory is probably playing tricks but isn't the band of grooves on the inst visibly narrower than on the vocal?

There were definitely a few around the midlands as I had one as well. I think mine came direct from selecta disc as I was buying most of my records from there at the time. Sold it in late 70's for next to nothing as didn't realise how scarce it was. My memory is probably playing tricks but isn't the band of grooves on the inst visibly narrower than on the vocal?

 

It's not Bill, it should be but it's not - as I mentioned earlier, I checked this when I had the two in my hands and they were the same.

Sorry Pete had not read all of the posts. Like I say my memory not as good as it was

so..to simplify..is there any way to identify the instrumental  just by the details on the label..?

Read posts 32 & 33 - the answer is there... I think   

Actually as to the Solid middle vocal, I may be thinking of the pronged one - but either way I know it took me years to actually find the correct Vocal variation, to line up with the instrumental.

 

Although it has no bearing on the case, I've just noticed I had done some touching up on the middles of those scans above. Can't remember why now.

 

Cheers

Mick

I've just hunted my 'solid middle' copy out and can confirm it's the three pronged variety.

Plus on the A side it's Pedro Music and the flip side is Cyril Shane Music.

 

Yes, I noticed your scans too - the holes in the middle look a little wavy - I wondered if it was your way of watermarking them!   

Read posts 32 & 33 - the answer is there... I think   

 

doesn't post #36 contradict this?

I thought so, for a minute - then decided he means that there are some vocal copies around that are 'Cyril Shane Music' on both sides.... BUT have a solid middle.

 

The instrumental needs to have 'Cyril Shane Music' on both sides and also be a large middle (Not one that's been pressed out either)

 

Is this correct Mick?

I thought so, for a minute - then decided he means that there are some vocal copies around that are 'Cyril Shane Music' on both sides.... BUT have a solid middle.

 

The instrumental needs to have 'Cyril Shane Music' on both sides and also be a large middle (Not one that's been pressed out either)

 

Is this correct Mick?

 

Yes John, no copies of the inst have either solid or pronged middle. Also I don't know of any vocal with a pronged middle and Cyril Shane on both sides.

 

Actually, let's all forget the "solid middle" bit, that was just a bad choice of words earlier on. I meant pronged / push out

 

Cheers

Mick

so..to simplify..is there any way to identify the instrumental  just by the details on the label..?

 

No, because there is a vocal with Identical labels

OK, there seems still to be some confusion ...

 

1. There is only one label design for the instrumental. This being with a large middle, and "Cyril Shane Music" on both sides.

 

2. For the Vocal, there are at least three, possibly four variations in label design and/or pressing.

 

2a. There is a vocal version with a 3 pronged push out middle. ( I can't remember which side has "Pedro Music" on now, probably WATM).

2b. There is a vocal version with large middle, "Pedro Music" on WATM side, and "Cyril Shane Music" on PSMTT side.

2c. There is a vocal version with large middle, "Cyril Shane Music" on WATM side, and "Cyril Shane Music" on PSMTT side.

 

2d. I think I had or saw a large middle varation with "Pedro Music" on both sides, but I'm not so sure now. Best to ignore this possible variation, so i'll put a line through it, but leave it readable.

 

Now variation 2c  is the one that will cause confusion, as the labels / pressing are identical to the instrumental - ie they used the same labels.

 

 

As to any differences in vinyl, well firstly I feel there must have been a difference in the matrix numbers, although anyone familiar with early seventies polydor matrix markings will know that they are nearly always a blurry mess (in comparison to clear markings on presses from EMI / Pye etc).

This was no exception, and studying the two sets of markings side by side with younger eyes about 25 years ago, I could really only tell that the "shape" of the markings were different ... maybe ... sort of. 

With modern HD cameras and scanners, someone with both records could probably work it out much easier now, let the tech do the hard work.

 

The other thing that's been mentioned is the scroll of the discs. (ie the width between each revolution)

Well, initially, they are both scrolled to fill the available surface, as they should be. So the only way to tell them apart is to look at the tightness of the scroll.

25 Years ago, with both in front of me, I could spot it clearly. (As a point of reference, the Open boot was also scrolled correctly to fill the whole record) In comparison to the vocal, the instumental had almost twice as much gap between the grooves. (The shorter the song, the wider the scroll).

If you look closely at the grooves of a twelve inch with a normal length song, you should see what I mean.

 

Cheers

Mick

Edited June 2, 20159 yr by Mick Holdsworth

Kin hell used to have one around 72-73 God knows who's got it now . Mopsey 

There are distinct differences in the matrix numbers between the vocal and the instrumental, along with other markings that distinguish one from the other. I won't go into what they are but that said, what is the point of all this? If I saw a copy in a shop for sale, or anywhere else for that matter, except on eBay where there might only be a label scan, I would simply play it to check for the instrumental.

Edited June 2, 20159 yr by denbo

I think the exercise was purely to establish if you could tell by just looking at the A side - as in a photo / scan where you didn't have the record physically to have a listen to it. (Because Sheffsoul asked)

 

So to sum up, it looks like you can't tell just from one label, other than if it's a 'push out' middle - if it is then don't look any further as it's not going to be the instrumental anyway.

 

A. You need to see both labels just to see if it's Cyril Shane music on both sides... if it is and has a large middle, then it's a case of listening to it (If possible), looking at the grooves on the off chance you can tell if they are a lot wider spaced apart than a 3 minute plus record would be.

 

B. If you're just going by label scans of both sides (without having hold of the record) and they are of a large middle record with Cyril Shane Music on both sides - that's as far as you can go other than asking the seller to play it and tell you (which you probably wouldn't want to do) - or just buy it and hope like hell !!!   

 But be prepared for the worst!     

Edited June 4, 20159 yr by John Benson