Northern Scene / Hooligans

[Winnie :-)]

Winnie, never saw a tear-up at a nighter on a par with a Saturday afternoon one. I agree with what you say,same people, different venues...

But how to explain it.. :fool:

=============

Tribalism was far more prevalent on the footie scene, and also included social issues. Earning more money, having more jobs etc, all referred to in football songs. Think we just put it aside at northern venues, and saw each other as equals?

[SteveM]

============

Not claiming nothing ever happened, isolated incedents can always be sited. Had lost touch with the northern scene in the 8Ts so can't comment. One thing I would ask though Steve, are you saying the 'Wigan locals' as in local Wigan soulies, or 'Wigan locals' as in people not necessarily associated with the soul scene but came from Wigan?

Winnie:-)

Locals Winnie, not soulies.

As I said, not a direct reply, just as I remember it. And it was isolated, because that was the only that I ever saw. With regard to th toilets at Wigan though, happened quite a bit. Depended on who you knew IMO. The timid got rolled fairly often in my recollection.

And I'm not trying to make out the scene as some hooligan hideaway. Very little trouble overall, considering the numbers of very handy lads over the years.

You Tottenham then ?..............................

[Guest garv]

============

Not claiming nothing ever happened, isolated incedents can always be sited. Had lost touch with the northern scene in the 8Ts so can't comment. One thing I would ask though Steve, are you saying the 'Wigan locals' as in local Wigan soulies, or 'Wigan locals' as in people not necessarily associated with the soul scene but came from Wigan?

Winnie:-)

I think Steve means locals not soul fans.............. i remember getting off the train @ Wigan & being met by the friendly locals who had been drinking in the Bee`s knees, the pub opposite the station........ there were 3/4 of us in long leather coats & for some reason this seemed to annoy them ( no fashion sense these boys) Mr Hubbard was with me & a guy called John Washbourne. Now John was the living "Brutus" of the popeye cartoon & they made a run across the road ............. John ran towards them & they all legged it , mind you so did we all the way to the Casino.

Ahh the good old days

[Paulw]

=============

Tribalism was far more prevalent on the footie scene, and also included social issues. Earning more money, having more jobs etc, all referred to in football songs. Think we just put it aside at northern venues, and saw each other as equals?

Personally, never EVER considered 'social issues'. Far less important than that, .

[Winnie :-)]

Locals Winnie, not soulies.

As I said, not a direct reply, just as I remember it. And it was isolated, because that was the only that I ever saw. With regard to th toilets at Wigan though, happened quite a bit. Depended on who you knew IMO. The timid got rolled fairly often in my recollection.

And I'm not trying to make out the scene as some hooligan hideaway. Very little trouble overall, considering the numbers of very handy lads over the years.

You Tottenham then ?..............................

=============

Didn't think you was saying 'hooligan hideaway' hope I didn't give that impression. Wanted to clear up the 'wigan locals' thing for my own peace of mind, could possibly have been misinterpreted?

Yep tottenham through and through

Winnie:-)

[Guest]

There aren't any soul hooligans are there?

Edited March 30, 2006 by Stapler

[SteveM]

=============

Didn't think you was saying 'hooligan hideaway' hope I didn't give that impression. Wanted to clear up the 'wigan locals' thing for my own peace of mind, could possibly have been misinterpreted?

Yep tottenham through and through

Winnie:-)

No, my choice of words Winnie. Yep, see what you meant about locals.

And did you use the term 'footie' earlier ? Please don't mate. It makes me think of those smug middle class

anoraks who discovered football after the premiership started and who write letters to 'When Saturday Comes' about the pies at Sunderland or whatever. W*nkers.

No oldies or progressive discussions for them. Mother won't let them.

[Winnie :-)]

No, my choice of words Winnie. Yep, see what you meant about locals.

And did you use the term 'footie' earlier ? Please don't mate. It makes me think of those smug middle class

anoraks who discovered football after the premiership started and who write letters to 'When Saturday Comes' about the pies at Sunderland or whatever. W*nkers.

No oldies or progressive discussions for them. Mother won't let them.

============

Could have been worse, might have said soccer

Strange thing though, I did use the word 'footie', and I never do, I put it down to the vodka, which has now worn off

Winnie:-)

[Russ Vickers]

Quite right dave ask anyone who got the train from manchester to wigan.We used to get on at bolton and 9 times out of 10 [pardon the pun]we would have a set to with locals or heavy rockers as we got off in wigan.

Yep, like running a gauntlet & punks kicking off when you where queing to get in also.

Russ

[Russ Vickers]

=================

I've read that in a book somewhere, can't remember what it was called though

Nope never got 'rolled' for gear and never had problems inside a nighter, which enforces the case that it was outside IMO. Plenty of times at footie got into probs cos of my accent/attitude though

Seen more scraps/bother this year than ever before, some on here might think others can't see the wood for the trees, cue the 'stoke massive crew'

Winnie:-)

PS. Might not always agree with Steve, but always read what he has to say with interest and a certain amount of appreciation.

Bouncers at Wigan would releive you of ya smarties if you wernt careful !!!

Russ

[BrianB]

Paul,

I'll fill you in (metaphorically) over the weekend. I was there on the footy and Soul scene from 1970 to ??, obviously in Burnley. At Wigan the average age in 73/74 was around 18 to 23 with quite a few older lads. Only saw one fight inside Wigan but outside was fun at times, but never in the morning! Blackpool Mecca was fun all the time, as was Samantha's in Sheffield. More later, need to start work!

[grant]

I think Steve means locals not soul fans.............. i remember getting off the train @ Wigan & being met by the friendly locals who had been drinking in the Bee`s knees, the pub opposite the station........ there were 3/4 of us in long leather coats & for some reason this seemed to annoy them ( no fashion sense these boys) Mr Hubbard was with me & a guy called John Washbourne. Now John was the living "Brutus" of the popeye cartoon & they made a run across the road ............. John ran towards them & they all legged it , mind you so did we all the way to the Casino.

Ahh the good old days

Definitely locals - was particularly bad walking from the station just as the pubs spilled out - one in particular if I remember right was the Bees Knees or something near the station. Usually they picked on ones or twos. Also was a big fight outside one night when the Casino was full of punks before the all-niter, think the punk band Chelsea were on live that night. Kicked off with only a few of us outside early doors against 100 or so of them, then the reinforcements came in the shape of a coachload from Scotland!

Walking from Piccadilly bus stn in Manchester down to Victoria train stn could also be a bit daunting circa 77/78 when punks were rife in Manchester. Why punks and soulies didnt get on still puzzles me as we were both into underground scenes and not the run of the mill pop crap etc and all that went with it - poxy night clubs etc.

Remember not telling my parents any of these goings-on as I was a mere 15yr old at the time.

Also remember being good mates with a few Leeds hoolies at Wigan and agreeing to avoid each other when MCFC played them!!

[Steve G]

Definitely locals - was particularly bad walking from the station just as the pubs spilled out - one in particular if I remember right was the Bees Knees or something near the station. Usually they picked on ones or twos.

Remember one night where there were about 50 of them and they came after a load of us off the Crewe train. All long haired hippies and scummy pizzEds. Some of us agreed we'd had enough of this and to stay put and see them off - but when we looked round suddenly there were only four of us left , so hiddeously outnumbered we had to dive into this shop with a long entrance way,. Anyway they all went past up the hill chasing these soulies, and when they went back past down again we came out and carried on walking......

Cardiff's boys are called the 'soul crew' or something similar.

Shane

Yes and if you locate their website they will tell you that the origins of "Soul Crew" lie in the roots of NS late 60's and early 70s - obviously a thriving "soul" scene then back in Cardiff.

[Winsford Soul]

Quite right dave ask anyone who got the train from manchester to wigan.We used to get on at bolton and 9 times out of 10 [pardon the pun]we would have a set to with locals or heavy rockers as we got off in wigan.

Dead right Andy. Imagine how i was. Utd fan coming from Widnes. Fighting with the mickies on the train to Manchester, then fighting at old trafford coz they thought i was a mickey coz of my accent, then fighting with the wires on sat night ( Widnes /warrington - Rugby ) on train to casino then fighting with the punks in Wigan

Steve

[Guest]

Am i the only one who never seen "clokcwork orange",from what i have heard i dont want to ,but then again,i wont stand up for "the Queen" at the footy,i`m deffo in minority

[grant]

but then again,i wont stand up for "the Queen" at the footy,i`m deffo in minority

Neither will I Ken

[jonbuck]

Did the two scene's go hand in hand or was it two different groups doing two very different things? Were these lads kicking the shit out of you sat afternoon then being your best mate at the mecca / torch / wigan sat night? I came to the conclusion that I would have lasted 5 mins tops in the 70's. Thats absolute tops too.

I was a Thug & A Football Hooligan in the early 70's....I followed The Arsenal 1971/3 nearly every match Home & Away....The Violence was part of it for us, Just like in the film Football Factory, but this was early 70's....We always travelled in an unmarked minibus....ie no Phone Numbers that gave the game away where you were from, Now this was before I new About Wigan Casino & Nothern Soul Etc, So if we had met someone that was from the Northern Scene we wouldn't have known....I got caught in a big ruckas @ Euston Station & got a good Kicking from London Man U fans, That made me wan't to give up going to Football.....2 weeks later my mate Reg Stickings took me to Wigan Casino, & from that moment on I was hooked....So for Me Football got me into Northern Soul....& since then I have never been to a Football Match, But Many a Niter....

Jon Buck

[grant]

Didnt know the Hibs had a book out - must tell my bro as he is a HiB. What's it called? Living down here we probably wont see it for sale

Pars fan myself (after my beloved MCFC) - did the Pars crew ever bring a book out ?? Not been up to Fife in years - is tehre any good soul nites run there that should I go up to see relatives this summer that I could attend??

Edited March 31, 2006 by ShaneH

[uni ted]

i remember going to a boxing day alldayer in burnley in the 70s,and guess who was playing at turf moor that very day n.u.f.c. so most of us left to go to the match,caused a bit of mayhem,then back to the alldayer,where some toe rag had stolen half our hold alls,no trouble at the dayer though.

also had a knife pulled on me in the casino by a soulie.

so someone is very deffo wearing rose tinted glasses ?

[Guest ZTSC]

The best aggro soul do had to be The Carousel in Plymouth Grove . Frosty or might have been Carl from Rochdale got there wrists slashed by the Longsight Sham Army (Spam Sarnies). We did come unstuck but took a few of them out as well.

The Wigan punks were game as well.

Hells Angels v Newcastle bus at Birch

Blackpool locals before Wigan.

Halcyon days

Lifes much calmer these days

[Chris L]

I'm currently reading a book called "BOVVER" by Chris Brown (thats b o v v e r not bower). Its about the hooligan scene in the 70's and mentiones that the soul boys were into it all too.

The word "hooligans" was very much an 80T's thing, in the 70T's youth were not pigeon

holed by the media with set names. In the south of the UK it was very much a gang

thing, allied much of it to football. So people who we would today call skinheads did

fight each other, took part in quite a few myself. When I ventured up north in '71/72

I was surprised at the lack of agression at NS venues, in fact quite the opposite. I

reckon some of the best relationships I ever had were with northerners. The "bovver

boys" down south were mostly into soul music and some ska/blubeat/rocksteady

so I assume that's where the connection is.

I once took part in a BBC docmentary about this, done by the BBC journalist Chris

Underwood, wonder what ever happended to it?

Peace & Love

Chris L

[Guest sydney bridge]

even by stafford first anniversary (same day as f.a cup semi finals),plenty of talk about aggro at the two matches.seem to rememder a d.j. involved. shocking,disgusting,a good spell in the army would sort them out but they`ll probably grow out of it. notice i did`t say grow up!for me it was plymouth versus watford at villa park at 3pm and harold melvin and the blue notes at 3am the next morning.what memories.

Edited March 30, 2006 by sydney bridge

[Guest Rich]

I'm currently reading a book called "BOVVER" by Chris Brown (thats b o v v e r not bower). Its about the hooligan scene in the 70's and mentiones that the soul boys were into it all too.

Did the two scene's go hand in hand or was it two different groups doing two very different things?

Were these lads kicking the shit out of you sat afternoon then being your best mate at the mecca / torch / wigan sat night?

.

Many in the 70s got involved almost innately in both scenes - this was definitely the case across the East Mids throughout the 70s - and read any old football-related forum and from time to time some Northern Soul related thread will crop up. Also, check out 'Bravo - The real Football Factory', a six-parter to be shown in May. A programme that will kick all the 'we never got done' hoolie books into a cocked hat I'm told and I believe a few who have been interviewed regularly attended soul doo's from 60's through 90's - who know's who'll you'll recognise

Edited March 30, 2006 by Rich

[Guest Andy BB]

then again,i wont stand up for "the Queen" at the footy,i`m deffo in minority

Me neither Ken.

She tried it on once but I said P*ss off your Majesty this is the Park End and I know full well that your season ticket's for the Gladwys Street. Now do one owlarse.

[Guest mrs norman maine]

The best aggro soul do had to be The Carousel in Plymouth Grove .

I think my auntie & uncle had their wedding reception there in the 1960s & there was reported to be more aggro at that than has ever been seen at either football or NS events. Mainly thanks to my gran.

[Guest smigger]

and read any old football-related forum and from time to time some Northern Soul related thread will crop up.

terraceretro.com anybody?

[Guest MOLLY]

Definitely part of growing up as already pointed out,as a 14/15 year old teenager used to grace the terraces of Bedford Town and had many a running battle with nearby Kettering Town along the railway track near Charles Wells brewery,which was next door to The Eyrie.Bottles a plenty

Then progressed to The Oak Road end at Luton Town early 80's,mad times with Millwall and Wolves....

Going to Luton away saturday for the first time in years,will bring back a few memories I'm told that away fans now reside in the Oak Road end,where I will be situated......

1980 started work and going to Peterborough Allniters at the Fleet and St Ives Alldayers...

[Guest]

I'm currently reading a book called "BOVVER" by Chris Brown (thats b o v v e r not bower). Its about the hooligan scene in the 70's and mentiones that the soul boys were into it all too. I grew up in the 80's and watched Burnley thoughout my teanage years but never saw any fighting and none of my mates were into it. This books goes on about how the hooligans of that time were between 15-20 years old which I couldn't believe. I've always thought that hoolies have always been much older.

I also found out the other day that Wigan was full of 14-20 years olds and that shocked me too. Both of these scenes were dominated by young kids. Kids fighting and taking drugs at such a young age when I was climbing tree's and playing army at 14.

The incidents that this bloke took part in are genuinely shocking and this was happening every week up and down the country.

Did the two scene's go hand in hand or was it two different groups doing two very different things?

Were these lads kicking the shit out of you sat afternoon then being your best mate at the mecca / torch / wigan sat night?

I came to the conclusion that I would have lasted 5 mins tops in the 70's. Thats absolute tops too.

When I moved down from Merseyside around '73, amongst the first people I met down South were hooligans who were interested in soul. Coming from where I did, violence was not uncommon. All these lads were generally into fighting with rival teams and generally anyone not from their group. However part of this crowd began going to the likes of Wigan, Yate and later on, the London events. The suprising thing was, they very rarely started any trouble at the events. One night we were oft to Ady's boat trips along the Thames and we had arranged a mini-bus with 12 on board. Three fights on the way up, great time on the boat only to come off and fight with a crowd who were disembarking from another boat. That was fairly normal. I think there were a large percentage of football hooligans around, that I knew from the South who loved Soul music.

There were occasional rucks at Niters, the locals got a hiding one night at Yate, and that was the last of that. Turned up in a full mini-van at Peterboro (not the Warrina - the other one with loads of small rooms) to be greeted by locals stopping any one entering or leaving. We waded in and problem solved.

Another time at Wimbledon Football Club, there were 2 car loads. Afterwards we were on the way to Yate but got split up. The other lot got caught up in aggro with Wimbledon supporters and Kev Coombes turned up at Yate, face cut to pieces. Stays the night and on to A&E in the morning for 20+ stitches.

A lot of my old crowd would go to the Jazz Funk events later on because they were a great laugh and more contemporary than Northern had ever been. Much as I loved, and still love, Northern as the 80s drew on, lots of the characters who had made things so funny and so weird stopped going. I guess people were simply growing up.

Looking back on pictures of the crowd I used to be with, they were very young. I was 20/21 then but although there were others in my age group, there were many round 14 - 16, especially the girls.

[Lindsay]

Are you saying that uze a growed up then Mr Longtimegone...ermmm why am I so dubious bout that

[Guest dundeedavie]

yeah stuart it was , basically cherry picked the best games and depending on which dundee team you supported depended if you went to the game or done yer thing outside it as a lot of dundee casuals wouldn't step foot in tannadice but were happy to do the business in their name ....

had many a happy time in perth and was a time i was effectively banned from perth lol (as i am from dens and tannadice ) , came back from one summer outing in Perth with one shoe and a burst head , bloody loved those shoes

Davie

Edited March 31, 2006 by dundeedavie

[Soultown andy]

Dont know if i know you ztsc,but i was in that ruck at the carousel,me and a guy from bury mick corrigan who was a big mate of frostys,to be honest we didnt come off to well that nite as i remember but we had quite a few battles with the punks down there.As someone pointed out there was always trouble at the carousel,its location and the fact it was an irish drinking den at the time[my parents are irish before anyone takes offence]didnt help.

[Guest ZTSC]

Dont know if i know you ztsc,but i was in that ruck at the carousel,me and a guy from bury mick corrigan who was a big mate of frostys,to be honest we didnt come off to well that nite as i remember but we had quite a few battles with the punks down there.As someone pointed out there was always trouble at the carousel,its location and the fact it was an irish drinking den at the time[my parents are irish before anyone takes offence]didnt help.

I remember Mick Corrigan. That was a good battle . I ended up in the Polish Club with about 10 "Spam Sarnies" outside, the police had all legged it, so I just had to run out into the yard with a smashed up chair in both hands and go for it. I took a few bricks off me head but got round the corner and found a bizzy car starting to drive away - opened the door , jumped in and nearly got knicked for it !

The Rochdale lads eh - Rum Uns.

Good Times !

Kev J

[Guest martyn]

Hooligans, anybody remember the clash with rockers @ the fleet p/boro

Dustbin lids were choice of weapens i seemed to recall.( No not the plastic type )

Yep,I got sparked out by something one of them threw off the roof

[Guest ShaneH]

I remember Mick Corrigan. That was a good battle . I ended up in the Polish Club with about 10 "Spam Sarnies" outside, the police had all legged it, so I just had to run out into the yard with a smashed up chair in both hands and go for it. I took a few bricks off me head but got round the corner and found a bizzy car starting to drive away - opened the door , jumped in and nearly got knicked for it !

The Rochdale lads eh - Rum Uns.

Good Times !

Kev J

brilliant

Shane

[Guest martyn]

Definitely part of growing up as already pointed out,as a 14/15 year old teenager used to grace the terraces of Bedford Town and had many a running battle with nearby Kettering Town along the railway track near Charles Wells brewery,which was next door to The Eyrie.Bottles a plenty

Then progressed to The Oak Road end at Luton Town early 80's,mad times with Millwall and Wolves....

Going to Luton away saturday for the first time in years,will bring back a few memories I'm told that away fans now reside in the Oak Road end,where I will be situated......

1980 started work and going to Peterborough Allniters at the Fleet and St Ives Alldayers...

Yeah,Kettering at the Eyrie was always 'lively'.Remember the Northern do's at the Eyrie-Thursday nights in 81 If I remember right

[Mak]

Theres no getting away from it , it happened. I used to watch Forest home and away in the late 60's/70's (still do) when Northern was at it's pinnacle . Often we would visit the likes of Bolton , Manyoo ,Liverpool and have mass brawls then later at the Casino you would see the same lot you were scrapping with and exchange stories and tell jokes it seemed a bit unreal. one of the biggest names at the time was a very well known scoucer and brilliant dancer Mr F. B--p-r you stayed well clear on a Saturday afternoon, but come the evening we would meet at his house and make way to the Casino. Thank god I've grown up.

[Lenny Harkins]

Hi Dave ............. what i mean is that youth culture had many crossover points ( soul, football, scooters etc etc) but not set in stone.

thats it in a nutshell mate, just two youth cultures happennining at the the same time.

[Guest Andy BB]

thats it in a nutshell mate, just two youth cultures happennining at the the same time.

With just a little examination that doesn't ring true...

There have been other youth cultures about at the same time as football violence.

And has anyone ever witnessed a gang of New Romantics steam into a Football Special?

Perhaps you've heard of a large group of marauding Goths taking the away end?

No. There's no getting away from it - you Soulies are naughty scamps.

[Lenny Harkins]

Theres no getting away from it , it happened. I used to watch Forest home and away in the late 60's/70's (still do) when Northern was at it's pinnacle . Often we would visit the likes of Bolton , Manyoo ,Liverpool and have mass brawls then later at the Casino you would see the same lot you were scrapping with and exchange stories and tell jokes it seemed a bit unreal. one of the biggest names at the time was a very well known scoucer and brilliant dancer Mr F. B--p-r you stayed well clear on a Saturday afternoon, but come the evening we would meet at his house and make way to the Casino. Thank god I've grown up.

bit differrent up here back then , hibs, hearts, celtic , rangers. ,fighting in the nighters, calton studios, leith assembly rooms being the worst.

[Lenny Harkins]

With just a little examination that doesn't ring true...

There have been other youth cultures about at the same time as football violence.

And has anyone ever witnessed a gang of New Romantics steam into a Football Special?

Perhaps you've heard of a large group of marauding Goths taking the away end?

No. There's no getting away from it - you Soulies are naughty scamps.

youve obviously never been chased along argyle st. , with some marc almond lookalike shouting "youll feel the wrang end aye a tukka boot, ya cashie dick..."

[Guest Andy BB]

If it's any consolation I was picked up by an ambulance by Mounthooly with my face covered in Kickers imprints. I had nightmares about dodgy wedges and incomprehensible accents for weeks.

[Lenny Harkins]

With just a little examination that doesn't ring true...

There have been other youth cultures about at the same time as football violence.

Perhaps you've heard of a large group of marauding Goths taking the away end

the goths are easy, first there easily spotted, hence stopped early doors, plus if the got in they,ed only start self harming anyway.

[Guest garv]

With just a little examination that doesn't ring true...

There have been other youth cultures about at the same time as football violence.

And has anyone ever witnessed a gang of New Romantics steam into a Football Special?

Perhaps you've heard of a large group of marauding Goths taking the away end?

No. There's no getting away from it - you Soulies are naughty scamps.

Oi woolyback ...........alright Mr BB IMO...... in the 60`s & 70`s you had two choices, basiclly smart or not ....... by that i mean modernisum by extention ( i`m not a mod, strange people ) suedehead, skinheads, football lad, soulboy, smoothy etc ect or a greaser, grebo, smelly, & hippy student types who had`t the balls to be anything else etc etc. there were a lot of crossover points for the want of a better phrase on " the mod side of things" i never heard of greasers kicking off at football either. As for new romantics & goths, ............. mostly middle class TW*TS

[Lenny Harkins]

nobody anything else to say, or are you,s all new romantics and goths

[Guest Andy BB]

Oi woolyback ...........alright Mr BB IMO...... in the 60`s & 70`s you had two choices, basiclly smart or not ....... by that i mean modernisum by extention ( i`m not a mod, strange people )

Watch it sunshine....

I'll take you, and all your mates, you soft southern ponce!

[Guest garv]

Watch it sunshine....

I'll take you, and all your mates, you soft southern ponce!

sorry A ndy ............. forgot you like a nice dapper M&S suit....... with a hankie in the top pocket ........ just for show.... dont ya know . and just for the record i live in the south ........ i`m not from the south, you northern monkey. Will have to get back on topic or Shane will be giving us both a good kicking

[SteveM]

sorry A ndy ............. forgot you like a nice dapper M&S suit....... with a hankie in the top pocket ........ just for show.... dont ya know . and just for the record i live in the south ........ i`m not from the south, you northern monkey. Will have to get back on topic or Shane will be giving us both a good kicking

Garv, its ' Norvern Mankey '.

[Lenny Harkins]

Watch it sunshine....

I'll take you, and all your mates, you soft southern ponce!

thats it started

[Guest ShaneH]

good thread this.

surprised SteveM & Brett haven't said much???

Shane

[Nick Hackett]

All this talk about 7ts....it was the 8ts in West London home of QPR the smartest casual firm (we had stuarts clothing shop on the uxbridge rd) calling themselves the fila mob or the older lads were the c (coach) mob,off to meet luton at st pancras or see off our northern mates at euston,white city estate overlooking our little ground was great on evening games as away fans found themselves lost,the bush green was a muddy battlefield..Arrrgh happy days before i saw the light and found real soul music,not the shitty casual 8ts crap i grew up with as a youngster.

Billy Hambric..I found true love..1 v Fatback Band..I found lovin..0

Edited March 31, 2006 by nick hackett