how do you define R&B ? tricky ,but i would put Big Boss Man at the top of the list as sung by Eric Burdon in his early days to get the house shaking .

next i would mention Respectable as sung by the Yardbirds to get the floor rocking 

and then Shop Around by Georgie Fame and the Blue Flames sung live ..

 

you could venture over into Elmore James , dust my broom and Cyril davies  CountryLine Special  for a kicker 

it must have rythem and it must have blues as well ,so does the tune in question have both of these to qualify for the category ??

if not was is it ??

You can't define R&B,its a feeling ,I know what I think is R&B if I don't feel it then " to me " its not R&B the tunes I posted " to me " are out and out R&B ,so don't argue with me it would be a waste of your time ,and mine  

 

Bazza   

Rhythm and blues

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

For other uses, see Rhythm and blues (disambiguation).

"R&B" redirects here. For the modern style of music also called "R&B", see Contemporary R&B.

Rhythm and blues Stylistic origins Jazz, blues (especially jump andelectric), gospel Cultural origins 1940s—1950s, United States Typical instruments Drum kit, bass guitar,saxophone, horns, piano, organ,electric guitar, vocals,background vocals Derivative forms Funk, ska, soul, rock and roll,reggae, disco, beat music,power pop, psychedelic rock,garage rock, pub rock (UK), mod revival Subgenres Contemporary R&B — Smooth jazz Fusion genres Rockabilly Local scenes New Orleans R&B — British R&B Other topics List of R&B musicians, British Invasion, Mod (lifestyle)

Rhythm and blues, often abbreviated to R&B and RnB, is a genre of popular African-American music that originated in the 1940s.^[1] The term was originally used by record companies to describe recordings marketed predominantly to urban African Americans, at a time when "urbane, rocking, jazzbased music with a heavy, insistent beat" was becoming more popular.^[2]

The term has subsequently had a number of shifts in meaning. In the early 1950s, the term rhythm and blues was frequently applied to blues records.^[3]Starting in the mid-1950s, after this style of music contributed to the development of rock and roll, the term "R&B" became used to refer to music styles that developed from and incorporated electric blues, as well as gospel and soul music. By the 1970s, rhythm and blues was used as a blanket term for soul and funk. In the 1980s, a newer style of R&B developed, becoming known as "Contemporary R&B".

Bobby adams - better days ahead. Love this record but I class it as r'n'b meets northern?

 

Judy Clay ... Do you think thats right   Uptempo r'n'b   ????

 

Really just great black sixties rhythm/soul records whatever the description !!

Poor mans rock and roll

You are young Bearsy, you will learn lol 

 

Bazza 

how do you define R&B ? 

 

Rhythm & Blues 

Northern, Crossover, Modern Soul.

All RnB based from Ray Charles through to R Kelly so accept & enjoy it all.

 

Just like The Outsiders Time Won't Let Me is a Garage record that was played.

 

 

Sorry Joe - that's clearly a Frat Rock  record

So if Ray Agee isn't classed as RnB cus it's filled floors on the Northern Scene, then the same applies to the likes of Charles Sheffield, Larry Davies, Dusty Wilson, Joe Tex etc etc etc etc

James Duncans incredibly shitty 45 'Three little pigs' had a much better response from the Northern Scene than the RnB Scene..... So that must also be a Northern record if this logic applies?

No, it's actually just a piss poor RnB record.

Nice to have your cake and eat it I suppose!

Ray Agee is just piss poor record ,what ever genre you class it in ,just my opinion of course 

 

Bazza  

You are young Bearsy, you will learn lol 

 

Bazza 

He's not that fecking young!

 

 

Peter

 

What do you mean by that??

 

 

 

   

 

(only joking!)

 

 

Your a top man keep posting

Your a top man keep posting

 

I'll try 

Garry you ought to read this post, I was actually quite funny back then

 

 

first post on that thread

Edited April 16, 201312 yr by Pete S

how do you define R&B ? tricky ,but i would put Big Boss Man at the top of the list as sung by Eric Burdon in his early days to get the house shaking .

next i would mention Respectable as sung by the Yardbirds to get the floor rocking 

and then Shop Around by Georgie Fame and the Blue Flames sung live ..

 

you could venture over into Elmore James , dust my broom and Cyril davies  CountryLine Special  for a kicker 

 

I must say my man, you are talking my language

You are young Bearsy, you will learn lol 

 

Bazza 

Hi Bazza hope you well matey ;-)

 

Good job you don't bet much then.

Take the name Ray Agee off the label, play it to anyone who's ever heard Northern Soul, ask them what genre of music it is, oh f*ck me sideways, it's Northern Soul!

 

can a record not be northern soul and r&b? just as it can be northern soul and pop, as plenty are. the answer is yes by the way. Musically speaking, due to it's chords and structure, the song 'I'm losing again' could be played as a straight blues, it is more a blues song than a soul song, and with the emphasis on rhythm then added, well, it's rhythm & blues actually.

 

Right so any accepted "Northern Soul" record by an R & B artist is no longer "Northern Soul" under your new rules, I'll go tell Ray Charles that "I Don't No Doctor" is off the NS  playlist then...and then do the other 5000 records

 

'i dont need no doctor' is straight down the middle rhythm & blues.

I'll try 

Garry you ought to read this post, I was actually quite funny back then

 

 

first post on that thread

 

 

You have got to read this as its so funny it's almost impossible

 

Garry huxley

 

 

can a record not be northern soul and r&b? just as it can be northern soul and pop, as plenty are. the answer is yes by the way. Musically speaking, due to it's chords and structure, the song 'I'm losing again' could be played as a straight blues, it is more a blues song than a soul song, and with the emphasis on rhythm then added, well, it's rhythm & blues actually.

Nope ,its tripe ,wouldn't even use it as a beer mat 

 

Bazza 

Good job you don't bet much then.Take the name Ray Agee off the label, play it to anyone who's ever heard Northern Soul, ask them what genre of music it is, oh f*ck me sideways, it's Northern Soul!

Northern soul isn't one particular style of music though is it. It is all taken from various genres if the beat fits, blues, r&b, soul, pop.......

In my opinion Northern soul is whatever is accepted as the current play lists that are loved by the people of today and danced to as it was back in the dayys of wheel torch casino etc, it is a name penned by mr godin for a style that is in fact undefinable.

Can you give a better description, I Cannot no matter how hard i try.

back in the 60s Pye International fliers used to catagorise R&B as Bo Diddley and Chuck Berry and so on , but over the years its changed its definition .go in a record shop now and R&B racks have a totally different genre of singer and type of music which caters to a larger audience .

so you cant really put a definitive genre to the name IMO ...

Yes, of course you can. Start by forgetting the general term r&b which is used in america somewhat racistly to describe pretty much any music of black origin, used in that context the term r&b has no meaning, including as it does r kelly and howlin wolf.

With that discarded, the term r&b can revert to it's original and proper definition, which is blues with added rhythm, which spans from the late 40s to the late 60s when blues as a contemporary black music style fell out of favour.

R&b can be identified by being musically the blues, or based on blues chords, but being heavily rhythmic. Ray agee's I'm losing again, jimmy frazier and mickie champion are all quite obviously rhythmic blues records, this should be apparent to even the musically unaware.

If names of musical genres dont have musical definitions then they are meaningless.

Where pete seems to make a logical error is in insisting that the northern soul catagory excludes all others which of course it doesn't, in fact this is one of the movements most attractive features.

Dana valery, for example, is without question a pop record by genre which is also a northern soul record as it meets the criterea of that genre too.

To deny that the r&b records in question are r&b is equivalent to denying that some records are soul bdcause they also happen to be 'northern soul'. Logically, it's the same argument.

Ray Agee is just piss poor record ,what ever genre you class it in ,just my opinion of course 

 

Bazza  

 

 

Bazza,don't you like Ray Agee.?

Nope ,its tripe ,wouldn't even use it as a beer mat 

 

Bazza 

Yes, I understand that you dont like the record, you've made several posts making the point although I dont understand why.

Silly post featuring a Nikki Minaj and Justin Bieber video removed.

 

Lets try and keep it as near on topic as possible.

Blimey, I might be agreeing with Pete S on here. I think that Bobby Sanders or whoever it was put Ray Agee in the studios and said summat like " Let's try you out as a soul man on this swingin' Detroit type of backing track we've laid down'. It is so vastly different from the 1,000 other records he made, I do think it is an anomaly. I think Mickie Champion was similar and I was going to disagree about Ray Charles but then realised it's written by Ashford & Simpson so of course it's Ray updating himself for the young black crowd. If he can give country a go, he can certainly try the soul thing out.

 

I think for our purposes R&B should be blues with a rhythm rather than soul songs by blues singers but there's 1,000s of instances where it is down the middle.

Yes, I understand that you dont like the record, you've made several posts making the point although I dont understand why.

Nothing wrong with Ray Agee in general ,I just don't like .that particular Record 

 

Bazza

...forgive me for jumping in here....but Pete....that tune Ray Agee...'I'm Not Looking back'!! You consider it not 'northern'...?! Interesting!

I can only repeat how it happened and what was said....but here goes...!

I was in Cottons Stockport circa '95/6. Rob...Robbie....a dealer who began wearing a dress and was waiting for a sex change.....rushed up to me as we arrived....with a box of 50 of these tunes!!! He pulled the first 1 out....GAVE it to me....and said...it's just arrived....this is 'it'...the entire stock! Spin it....you'll luv it and it's 'Northern'!!!

 

However.....whilst Rob...Robbies judgement in life may have been confusing at the time....as far as Northern went....he had...for the previous 2 years...seen me right with tunes! BUT...the week before at Blackburn....I had swopped in all my excitement...my Grapevine copy of Lester Tipton....for 'Train To Nowhere' by the Champs.....about 15 minutes before finishing the night off at 7am! I was 'vulnerable I recall!!!hehe!x I heard it on headphones and....and....played it among me set as the 'instrumental...and everybody danced!!! Never played it again.....and every time i see it at a boot sale....for 10p or a quid...I wince......nearly 20 years later!!!hehe!x

 

Personally...I liked both tracks in their own right. I never did get to play the Ray Agee at a Northern doo....and wouldn't have.....unless vulnerable at 6.45am again!! It was one of those 'nearly' was tunes.....and kept it in me collection ever since!...erm....2 years ago....my Producer mate heard it.....I wanted to share the piano and sax all the way through with him! He liked it soo much...he included it in the requested 30 he took away with him to 'play' with for the next year.....! I didn't mention it on the phone t'other week.....but here it is....! It ain;t R&B....it ain't Northern.....just a happy tune methinks!x

 

If you listen closely....you'll hear me and Pete 'screaming' in the back ground enjoying every minute!!hehe!x

Amazingly....the intro....sez all....and indeed perhaps epitomises what Northern Soul has been to me over 40 years of education on it!x

 

https://www.skooters.cc/zoots/cominhome.mp3

 

It's become one of Pete's favourite tunes of all times!! It reflects that as he hasn't done a lot to it either really!!

 

Music....a personal preference....I reckon!x 

 

@@
~
LUV
SOOTY
X

 

...Rob...Robbie ripped that box open and gave me the first copy Pete....so he said? I think his interest was 'moving' the t'other 49 at the time...! Perhaps he'd seen me Lester Tipton go so easy the week before......?!.....flippin' vultures......I needed looking after init!! My mate Fudge constantly called me a tw***t.....see why eh?!hehe!x They took the P alllll the way back down the M6.....sigh....!x Waddya know about the record then Pete?!x Was there that 50...or 500???!!!!x

Edited April 17, 201312 yr by SOOTY

But Ady, most of those blues based R&B singers recorded great uptempo dance tracks at some point, you could argue the same point with Bobby 'Blue' Blands "Shoes".

Nobody is disputing they are 'dance' records and probably targeted a younger audience....and as the Northern Scene is a dance based scene then I can understand the desire to label and pidgeon hole such records.

However, as we all know, the Northern Scene has embraced much more than just uptempo black dance music, so to me the whole discussion falls flat.

Think 'Rhythm & Soul' sums up such tracks quite nicely to be fair!

Lets hope Tittyshakers never start getting played on the Northern Scene.....Saxie Russell and HB Barnum are Northern Soul stars after all..aren't they?

Blimey, I might be agreeing with Pete S on here. I think that Bobby Sanders or whoever it was put Ray Agee in the studios and said summat like " Let's try you out as a soul man on this swingin' Detroit type of backing track we've laid down'. It is so vastly different from the 1,000 other records he made, I do think it is an anomaly. I think Mickie Champion was similar and I was going to disagree about Ray Charles but then realised it's written by Ashford & Simpson so of course it's Ray updating himself for the young black crowd. If he can give country a go, he can certainly try the soul thing out.

 

I think for our purposes R&B should be blues with a rhythm rather than soul songs by blues singers but there's 1,000s of instances where it is down the middle.

I dont think 'im losing...' is vastly different from all ray agee's other material, that's such a northetn soul perspective - that an uptempo detroit style beat transforms music into a different genre. It is a case of a r&b singer making an r&b record but utilising the hip rhythm of the year, as he did on other records like 'I feel so good' with a james brown type funk rhythm. None of the above are blues singers singing soul songs but I suppose records that had elements of both genres.

Funny how the best thing about music is that is so often best when it defies catagorisation, yet we feel uncomfortable when it does.

I dont think 'im losing...' is vastly different from all ray agee's other material, that's such a northetn soul perspective - that an uptempo detroit style beat transforms music into a different genre. It is a case of a r&b singer making an r&b record but utilising the hip rhythm of the year, as he did on other records like 'I feel so good' with a james brown type funk rhythm. None of the above are blues singers singing soul songs but I suppose records that had elements of both genres.

Funny how the best thing about music is that is so often best when it defies catagorisation, yet we feel uncomfortable when it does.

He was making a soul record instead of a blues based record, that's a different genre to me but it's no big deal. I know blues fans who have collected him for years wouldn't be interested in this track. Perhaps not vastly different though, just different, I don't know of any others of his in that style. Most artists cross genres and though I'd call Aretha Franklin primarily a soul singer she sometimes cut blues or jazz records. If Ray'd used a funk rhythm it would have probably been a funk record. I'm not too bothered about categorisation and don't feel uncomfortable, it's just different styles and I'm Losing Again is an uptempo soul record that has been played on the Northern Soul scene as a classic of its type for years.

I'll try 

Garry you ought to read this post, I was actually quite funny back then

 

 

"I heard it tell me to piss off as I posted it".

 

     

But Ady, most of those blues based R&B singers recorded great uptempo dance tracks at some point, you could argue the same point with Bobby 'Blue' Blands "Shoes".

Nobody is disputing they are 'dance' records and probably targeted a younger audience....and as the Northern Scene is a dance based scene then I can understand the desire to label and pidgeon hole such records.

However, as we all know, the Northern Scene has embraced much more than just uptempo black dance music, so to me the whole discussion falls flat.

Think 'Rhythm & Soul' sums up such tracks quite nicely to be fair!

Lets hope Tittyshakers never start getting played on the Northern Scene.....Saxie Russell and HB Barnum are Northern Soul stars after all..aren't they?

I wouldn't disagree with any of that squire, I was just giving my view on R&B acts doing the odd soul track.

Nothing wrong with Ray Agee in general ,I just don't like .that particular Record 

 

Bazza

 

How about "Real real love ".?

Where pete seems to make a logical error is in insisting that the northern soul catagory excludes all others which of course it doesn't, in fact this is one of the movements most attractive features.

 

 

I'm not getting into this again but if you read back I said that by their very nature they are all R & B artists making R & B records except several thousand of these records are referred to as Northern Soul not R & B, if you were discussing something like "I don't like to lose" by The Group you wouldn't immediately say oh what a great R & B record that is, you'd say isn't that a fantastic Northern Soul record.

these are the sort of thing's i'd say define R-n-B and what we play at the Spa Derby.

01.Ray Agee............Real love.

02.Bluse Slim..........tell the truth.

03.Nat Hall............you don't know.

04.Francis Burr........no,no,more.

05.Frank Minion........How much land.

06.Big Tiny Kenady.....Country boy.

07.Arthur Griswol......Prety mama blues...PLAY THIS BASTARD.

08.Varetta Dillard.....That's why i cry.

09.Patience Valentine..If you don't come.

10.Betty O'brien.......She'll be gone.

This is typical of r-n-b rooms up and down the country and the type of thing that will be played at Skeggy no debate over the origins and reasons for Loosing again it was a record destined for release with the possabilty of a chart hit using a known named artist to try and sell records for a small stugaling label it is what it is .Regards simon.

these are the sort of thing's i'd say define R-n-B and what we play at the Spa Derby.

01.Ray Agee............Real love.

02.Bluse Slim..........tell the truth.

03.Nat Hall............you don't know.

04.Francis Burr........no,no,more.

05.Frank Minion........How much land.

06.Big Tiny Kenady.....Country boy.

07.Arthur Griswol......Prety mama blues...PLAY THIS BASTARD.

08.Varetta Dillard.....That's why i cry.

09.Patience Valentine..If you don't come.

10.Betty O'brien.......She'll be gone.

This is typical of r-n-b rooms up and down the country and the type of thing that will be played at Skeggy no debate over the origins and reasons for Loosing again it was a record destined for release with the possabilty of a chart hit using a known named artist to try and sell records for a small stugaling label it is what it is .Regards

  nice one Simon

I'm not getting into this again but if you read back I said that by their very nature they are all R & B artists making R & B records except several thousand of these records are referred to as Northern Soul not R & B, if you were discussing something like "I don't like to lose" by The Group you wouldn't immediately say oh what a great R & B record that is, you'd say isn't that a fantastic Northern Soul record.

You might, but most people actually wouldn't, they'd describe it as a soul record primarily. I also stated that they are not 'all r&b artists making r&b records' and that r&b is a broad but identifiable musical style separate but not exclusively so to soul, funk and pop. To say that all black artists not making rock music are r&b artists making r&b records is an american construct almost racist in it's generalisation.

I dont mean to be argumentative but I only meant to counter your assertion that r&b and northern soul are mutually exclusive catagories like 'cat' and 'dog'. They aren't.

The term northern soul has much more complex meaning than a musical definition and is applied after the fact, like the term 'classic'. Classic is not a musical style but refers to anything which has had this value added after it's creation, therefore as a record can be soul but also a classic so can a record be r&b but also northern soul.

A record like sacred four is clearly a gospel record to use the most specific catagory but is also a soul record, a funk record and possibly a northern soul record. Your reasoning dictates that if sacred four was a northern soul favourite for 20 years then it will cease to be a gospel record.

Records like the ray agee are renowned for being on the cusp of rhythm and blues and soul music and that is what gives them their unique character, you can clearly hear the blues influence which is more or less absent from a lot of the more traditional northern soul

You might, but most people actually wouldn't, they'd describe it as a soul record primarily. 

 

No I'm afraid they would not.  I don't know anyone who would not describe this as a Northern Soul record.  You can twist my words to suit your own agenda as much as you like but you're going to have to accept that there is a separate genre of music known as Northern Soul.

When Ady Croasdel agrees with me on something, there must be some part of it that rings true!

No I'm afraid they would not.  I don't know anyone who would not describe this as a Northern Soul record.  You can twist my words to suit your own agenda as much as you like but you're going to have to accept that there is a separate genre of music known as Northern Soul.

When Ady Croasdel agrees with me on something, there must be some part of it that rings true!

So you're saying that the cecil washington isn't a soul record? It is soul, also northern soul, I dont see why that is a problem, northern soul collects appropraite records from a variety of genres but they dont lose their primary musical identity once they earn inclusion in the northern soul catagory, they just gain another.

Brilliant record by the way, and the fact that we agree on that is the over riding principle of the whole thing.

How about "Real real love ".?

Sorry Kev, don't think much of that either lol  

 

Bazza 

of course it's R & B, all black artist records like this are R & B, but here, it's classed as NORTHERN SOUL first and foremost.  And R & B as a genre of music in the proper sense covers millions of tracks, I'm not talking about R & B in the last 15 years definition of it as a sub-genre of Northern Soul.

 

How you define RnB depends on the context in which you refer to it as suggested in Pete's post above.

 

In my own dumb-arsed approach, to distinguish RnB from NS (in the narrower definition of what is RnB), I consider it to be RnB when the sound leans more to bluesy rock and roll than soul.....but as has been stated, many tunes fit into both categories.

 

Very subjective at the end of the day. 

He was making a soul record instead of a blues based record, that's a different genre to me but it's no big deal. I know blues fans who have collected him for years wouldn't be interested in this track. Perhaps not vastly different though, just different, I don't know of any others of his in that style. Most artists cross genres and though I'd call Aretha Franklin primarily a soul singer she sometimes cut blues or jazz records. If Ray'd used a funk rhythm it would have probably been a funk record. I'm not too bothered about categorisation and don't feel uncomfortable, it's just different styles and I'm Losing Again is an uptempo soul record that has been played on the Northern Soul scene as a classic of its type for years.

Ray has used a funk rhythm on records but they dont therefore become funk records, they add a funk drum beat but retain too many characteristics of r&b to be anything but r&b, but I wouldn't be outraged if someone described such records funk, or soul, as people seem to be. There are often not clear lines, thats the only point I'm trying to make. I never said 'losing again' isnt a soul record, of course it is, but also an r&b record, and as such an unusual example in both genres and all the better for it.

As it sits well at a northern do amongst gerri hall and the parisians, it also sits well at an r&b do amongst benny spellman and young jessie. It seems that I am happy for it so be soul and northern soul but you aren't happy for it to be r&b. Do you really think that if it was a new discovery every r&b dj wouldn't be all over it? Same applies to mickie champion and jimmy fazier. You cant say that a record ceases to be r&b because it shares elements with soul, northern soul, ska, pop, pop or latin, that denies the brilliant diversity of the r&b genre.

back in the 60s Pye International fliers used to catagorise R&B as Bo Diddley and Chuck Berry and so on , but over the years its changed its definition .go in a record shop now and R&B racks have a totally different genre of singer and type of music which caters to a larger audience .

so you cant really put a definitive genre to the name IMO ...

The rnb of today though is rhythm n beats rather than rhythm n blues. ;)

i thought todays 'rnb' stood for rubbish and boring!

 

dean

The rnb of today though is rhythm n beats rather than rhythm n blues. ;)

 

Or Rhymes n Beats, or Rhythm n Bass (apparently)  ;-)

So you're saying that the cecil washington isn't a soul record? It is soul, also northern soul, I dont see why that is a problem, northern soul collects appropraite records from a variety of genres but they dont lose their primary musical identity once they earn inclusion in the northern soul catagory, they just gain another.

Brilliant record by the way, and the fact that we agree on that is the over riding principle of the whole thing.

 

There's no need for this hair-slitting.

Yes it's an R&B record.

Yes it's a soul record.

Yes it's a Northern Soul record.

In fact, it's also a pop record as it was released to sell copies and become popular.

But the abiding opinion of 99.9% people will be - it's a classic Northern Soul record.

Three I have that I would describe as R&B are:

Sherri Taylor - He's The One Who Rings My Bell (Gloreco)

Mack Rice - Baby I'm Coming Home (Lupine)

Joe Lewis - Teach Me Right Now (Northern)

That is R&B in a Northern scene context.

Cheers

Richard

I must say my man, you are talking my language

yeah right all those bands performing those tunes live would blow your sox off , particularly the Yardbirds doing the isleys Respectable !