Gene Redd - Detroit

[G F]

One of the Debonaires has told me the group worked with Gene Redd and backed The Manhattans around 1965, but I can't see Gene's name on any of the group's Carnival 45s. Does anyone have any ideas? She can't recall any songs.

Also, I know of The Prophets' recording, but wonder what else Gene Redd might have done in Detroit in the 60s - most likely at Golden Worlds' studio.

 

[The Yank]

Was she referring to the Carnival Manhattans or the Golden World Manhattans?  A few more Gene Redd Detroit songs would be Shirley J. Scott's "Goose Pimples" and Darrell Banks "I've Got That Feelin' ". "I'm Gonna Hang My Head And Cry",   and "Look Into The Eyes Of A Fool" .

 

[Sunnysoul]

[G F]

Thanks - I'd forgotten about Goosepimples (and The Inspirations' version, which I guess is a NY recording). Elsie mentioned 1965 and the GW 45 was in mid-64. Below are two emails I've had from her:

We The Debonaires & Holidays did all the backgrounds for The O’Jays,The Manhattans, starting in 1965 for Gene Redd, The Fantastic Four, some with Pat Lewis. Melvin Davis (I must love you) all of Steve Mancha he recorded at Golden World, there are so many, We also recorded almost the backgrounds for The Spinners when they went to Atlantic Records. Just some you might like. I have many more.

And in reply to my question about Gene Redd/Manhattans....

Gene Redd called us to do the sessions, I don’t know how Gene was affiliated with these artists, we just did the background work, I’d like to know too!! Gerald Alston the lead singer of The Manhattans remembered us doing their backgrounds, He was inducted into the R&B Hall of Fame also, if he comes I’ll ask him about his relationship to Gene Redd!!This is happening is on September 24th, I’ll let you know what he remembers!!

You can see she mentions Gerald Alston, so it's the Carnival group (The Debs are being inducted to the R&B Hall of Fame this month.) 

Elsie was pregnant in 1967 and stopped singing for a while.

 

4 minutes ago, Sunnysoul said:

Another one I forgot about... must be age.

[The Yank]

Here's 2 more- Fantastic Four "Girl Have Pity On Me" and Tamiko Jones "I'm Spellbound". 

[Sunnysoul]

 "Gerald Alston the lead singer of The Manhattans remembered us doing their backgrounds"

Really ? Gerald Alston only joined the Manhattans in 1970 ... seemingly well after the time period the subject of this topic ...

[G F]

7 minutes ago, The Yank said:

Here's 2 more- Fantastic Four "Girl Have Pity On Me" and Tamiko Jones "I'm Spellbound". 

Thanks again. Funnily enough, I can't hear anyone aprt from James Epps sing on that one, but the flip-side has backing vocals.

Yes - it could be around the time Elsie did background with The Spinners on Atlantic. It's possible her dates/details and mixed up. As she mentioned, she's unsure of what recordings she did.

[G F]

9 minutes ago, Sunnysoul said:

 "Gerald Alston the lead singer of The Manhattans remembered us doing their backgrounds"

Really ? Gerald Alston only joined the Manhattans in 1970 ... seemingly well after the time period the subject of this topic ...

Sorry - my reply got merged with the one to The Yank.

[The Yank]

16 minutes ago, G F said:

Thanks again. Funnily enough, I can't hear anyone aprt from James Epps sing on that one, but the flip-side has backing vocals.

  Just so we're on the same page, all of my posts were about this part of the thread "... wonder what else Gene Redd might have done in Detroit in the 60's- most likely at Golden World Studios."

[G F]

Yes - but I'm really focusing on what the Debonaires and The Holidays were involved with. In fact my main focus is on The Holidays, as Elsie gave me feedback on the YouTube video I uploaded recently (Tony Gray interview - she was married to him).

She's since clarified which songs The Debs sang background on, as my note gave the impression her group sang on all the songs added at the end. That's not the case. I subsequently asked about any other recordings I could include (I've got to edit it) and she listed a few... and then we got around to her group and The Manhattans. 

Anyway, as my title is what it is, we can keep on the direction we're on. Thanks again.

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 07/09/2023 at 04:34, Sunnysoul said:

 "Gerald Alston the lead singer of The Manhattans remembered us doing their backgrounds"

Really ? Gerald Alston only joined the Manhattans in 1970 ... seemingly well after the time period the subject of this topic ...

Elsie told me the following in March

"Yes the Manhattans came to Golden World in 1965, on this recording we, Elsie, Joyce, Dorothy, Tony, Robert and Willie Butch recorded background vocals on before Gerald Alston took over as lead singer. The guys in the group went into the army or some armed forces and Blue Lovett, and Gene Redd used us to do their background vocals, which they took with them to Columbia Records, which Columbia kept our background vocals on so when the guys returned they used our background vocals on as their own on:There’s No Me Without you, Kiss And Say Goodbye,Shining Star and the rest of their songs. Columbia never gave us credit for those backgrounds either even though Gerald Alston did. They received Grammy awards and more knowing they didn’t do the songs, all recorded at Golden World. We were so young and didn’t understand the business and they all took advantage of us, youngsters."

[Sebastian]

1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Elsie told me the following in March

"Yes the Manhattans came to Golden World in 1965, on this recording we, Elsie, Joyce, Dorothy, Tony, Robert and Willie Butch recorded background vocals on before Gerald Alston took over as lead singer. The guys in the group went into the army or some armed forces and Blue Lovett, and Gene Redd used us to do their background vocals, which they took with them to Columbia Records, which Columbia kept our background vocals on so when the guys returned they used our background vocals on as their own on:There’s No Me Without you, Kiss And Say Goodbye,Shining Star and the rest of their songs. Columbia never gave us credit for those backgrounds either even though Gerald Alston did. They received Grammy awards and more knowing they didn’t do the songs, all recorded at Golden World. We were so young and didn’t understand the business and they all took advantage of us, youngsters."

This makes no sense. Those songs are from 1973-1980. There's no way that "Shining Star" is based on a recording from the mid-1960s.

[Solidsoul]

Gene Redd, one of the greats of writing and producing superb records! All his work for Detroit labels and his own Red Coach productions, and for other labels as well.

Edited April 27 by Solidsoul

[Robbk]

On 06/09/2023 at 20:57, The Yank said:

  Just so we're on the same page, all of my posts were about this part of the thread "... wonder what else Gene Redd might have done in Detroit in the 60's- most likely at Golden World Studios."

I heard and read back in the late '60s, that George Clinton, Gene Redd, and George Kerr all worked with Motown's Jobete Music office in New York in 1963 and the first half of 1964.  Kerr and Barnes came to Detroit when their artist, Sammy Turner was signed to an artist contract and was recorded, the same was true for George Clinton and his crew for The Parliaments to be recorded.  After Berry Gordy had Jobete N.Y.  closed down in summer '64, Clinton and Kerr and Barnes were brought by Motown to Detroit to continue writing songs for Jobete.  After several months there, maybe they got disillusioned with their chances to succeed with Gordy, due to nothing they were producing getting pressed up and backed promotionally with any serious effort.  So, they approached Ed Wingate, who was interested in using them.  Apparently, Kerr and Barnes got financial backing from New Jersey's, Bud Grandoff, who founded Maltese Records, and they both brought New York/N.J. Metro colleague of theirs, Gene Redd Jr., along with them to associate with Wingate.  They commuted back and forth between N.Y. and Detroit to record their New York singing artists at Golden World, and write songs and produce recordings for Wingate's Golden World/Ric Tic/Wingate singers, as well.  Clinton's production group, Maltese Records, and Gene Redd's Stephanye Records all had office space in Wingate's building from late 1964 into early '66.  Maltese and Stephanye Records (registered with N.Y. addresses), were pressed and distributed by Golden World in Detroit.  Redd and his writing crew worked on several recording projects for Ed Wingate's Detroit-based artists, other than bringing his NY artists to Detroit to record for Stephanye.  He also worked on several records released on small NY labels that were written for NY Jobete office and recorded using Richard Tee's band, who played on most of Jobete's demo recording sessions.  Grandoff's Maltese Records also released several songs by their artists Dolls, Perigents, Norma Jenkins, etc. that were written while Kerr and Barnes were with Jobete NY.  Interesting that they also released a Rusty Day record produced by Detroit's Ernie Stratton and Fred Saxon, recorded at Terra Shirma.  

[Happy Feet]

14 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Elsie told me the following in March

"Yes the Manhattans came to Golden World in 1965, on this recording we, Elsie, Joyce, Dorothy, Tony, Robert and Willie Butch recorded background vocals on before Gerald Alston took over as lead singer. The guys in the group went into the army or some armed forces and Blue Lovett, and Gene Redd used us to do their background vocals, which they took with them to Columbia Records, which Columbia kept our background vocals on so when the guys returned they used our background vocals on as their own on:There’s No Me Without you, Kiss And Say Goodbye,Shining Star and the rest of their songs. Columbia never gave us credit for those backgrounds either even though Gerald Alston did. They received Grammy awards and more knowing they didn’t do the songs, all recorded at Golden World. We were so young and didn’t understand the business and they all took advantage of us, youngsters."

 

13 hours ago, Sebastian said:

This makes no sense. Those songs are from 1973-1980. There's no way that "Shining Star" is based on a recording from the mid-1960s.

I had the chance to play all these tracks today , whilst out hunting in Mr Tees in Kidderminster, on a Dutch Album of The Manhattans greatest hits , and to be honest after reading these posts they do sound dated especially "Shining Star " , and with the wonders of a good mixing deck and production team anything could be possible , even in the mid 70s to the 80s . 

[Blackpoolsoul]

9 hours ago, Happy Feet said:

 

I had the chance to play all these tracks today , whilst out hunting in Mr Tees in Kidderminster, on a Dutch Album of The Manhattans greatest hits , and to be honest after reading these posts they do sound dated especially "Shining Star " , and with the wonders of a good mixing deck and production team anything could be possible , even in the mid 70s to the 80s . 

I forgot to mention that Elsie mentioned The Debonaires did the backing for "I'll Be Around", The Spinners as well

[Shinehead]

1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I forgot to mention that Elsie mentioned The Debonaires did the backing for "I'll Be Around", The Spinners as well

According to the album which the single was took off the femme back up was 

Linda Creed, And The Sigma Sweethearts - Barbara Ingram,Carla Benson and Yvette Benson.

The sweethearts also provided femme vocals on Kiss And Say Goodbye  recorded at Sigma by the  Manhattans.

Edited April 28 by Shinehead

[Sebastian]

1 hour ago, Shinehead said:

According to the album which the single was took off the femme back up was 

Linda Creed, And The Sigma Sweethearts - Barbara Ingram,Carla Benson and Yvette Benson.

The sweethearts also provided femme vocals on Kiss And Say Goodbye  recorded at Sigma by the  Manhattans.

Yes, and them singing on "Shining Star" (from 1980) doesn't add up either. The two songwriters of that track weren't even active until 1970 and 1976 respectively. The Debonaires might have provided backing vocals on some Manhattans tracks that appeared on DeLuxe or Carnival, but I find it highly unlikely that they as a group are included on the Manhattans Columbia recordings (or indeed The Spinners on Atlantic).

[Shinehead]

36 minutes ago, Sebastian said:

Yes, and them singing on "Shining Star" (from 1980) doesn't add up but I find it highly unlikely that they as a group are included on the Manhattans Columbia recordings (or indeed The Spinners on Atlantic).

Way the quote from one of the Debonaires reads to me is that the backing vocals were recorded in the sixties and used later in the seventies, improbable at best.

Edited April 28 by Shinehead

[Kenb]

Stephanye (the record label, and the pub co) is something i've never been able to get my head around?

I've seen Stephanye pub co associated with; Gene Redd, Leonard S. Mietus's copyright management company and Fred Fioto.

I do know that Cleveland Horne's daughter was called Stephanye (perhaps a nod to the label name there?), and also know Gene Redd Snr daughter was Pennye ( Penny), so perhaps something there?

 

Edited April 28 by Kenb
spelling

[Johndelve]

7 hours ago, Sebastian said:

Yes, and them singing on "Shining Star" (from 1980) doesn't add up either. The two songwriters of that track weren't even active until 1970 and 1976 respectively. The Debonaires might have provided backing vocals on some Manhattans tracks that appeared on DeLuxe or Carnival, but I find it highly unlikely that they as a group are included on the Manhattans Columbia recordings (or indeed The Spinners on Atlantic).

You're right, absolutely no way this makes any sense.  In so many different ways.  For a start, as said above, you can't record backing vocals to a song - "Shining Star" - that wasn't even written at the time. No technology in the world can make that a reality.  Yes, of course, if it was just "oohs" and "aahs" but not if one is singing actual words. (Plus the fact that the backing vocals on that record are clearly performed by men. As indeed are all the sixties' Manhattans records I know.)

Elsie Baker sounds a smart, likable and very switched on woman based on an interview I listened to but she also seems to be claiming in that interview that either- it isn't quite clear exactly what the claim is -  The Debonaires recorded "Baby Love" before the Supremes or sang the backing vocals on it. That actually makes more logical sense than the Manhattans' story but I still suspect would be news to most people.

 

[Robbk]

15 hours ago, Kenb said:

Stephanye (the record label, and the pub co) is something i've never been able to get my head around?

I've seen Stephanye pub co associated with; Gene Redd, Leonard S. Mietus's copyright management company and Fred Fioto.

I do know that Cleveland Horne's daughter was called Stephanye (perhaps a nod to the label name there?), and also know Gene Redd Snr daughter was Pennye ( Penny), so perhaps something there?

 

I thought I was told that Gene Redd Jr.'s daughter was named Stephanye.  Certainly Redd ran the production side.  Those other two must have been the label's financiers.  Cleveland Horne was one of Redd's songwriting team.

[David Meikle]

One of the “Golden World Manhattans” came along to an event that we held in Detroit circa 2003/4. He was caucasian as were the rest of his group. He was dressed in one of those “all in one” denim outfits that I recall Dan Penn used to wear.

To my eternal regret I never got his name but he was a member of the SoulfulDetroit forum.

Edited April 29 by David Meikle

[Shinehead]

According an article I have just read the femme backup on the Carnival stuff by TheManhattans was provided by The Lovettes.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29 by Shinehead

[David Meikle]

Can’t get my head around this discussion. Post number 2 has a label scan.

An extract from the SoulfulDetroit forum in 2004…..

https://soulfuldetroit.com/archives/1019-APR MAY 04/1077.html?1082740731

 

Edited April 29 by David Meikle
addad sentence no.2.

[Shinehead]

45 minutes ago, David Meikle said:

Can’t get my head around this discussion. Post number 2 has a label scan.

An extract from the SoulfulDetroit forum in 2004…..

https://soulfuldetroit.com/archives/1019-APR MAY 04/1077.html?1082740731

 

Don't think anyone disputes the fact that there were  two groups named The Manhattans this topic went a bit awry with the posts saying one of the Debonairs said they did backup with the Carnival group.

[Robbk]

Ralph Terrana said that he was a member of Detroit's Manhattans group for a while, and they were a self-contained band, who played their own instruments.  2 or 3 of their other ex-members posted on Soulful Detroit for awhile.  And one or 2 of their members, other than Ralph went on to be members of another famous group.  I can't remember whether that group was The Flaming Embers, or Rare Earth.

[Robbk]

9 hours ago, David Meikle said:

One of the “Golden World Manhattans” came along to an event that we held in Detroit circa 2003/4. He was caucasian as were the rest of his group. He was dressed in one of those “all in one” denim outfits that I recall Dan Penn used to wear.

To my eternal regret I never got his name but he was a member of the SoulfulDetroit forum.

Well, Ralph Terrana was a member of that group for awhile, but I seem to remember that we also had another ex-member of that group posting on SDF for awhile from 2001-2004 or so, back when so many of our posters were people who had been in the music industry in Detroit back in the 60s.

[The Yank]

43 minutes ago, Robbk said:

Ralph Terrana said that he was a member of Detroit's Manhattans group for a while, and they were a self-contained band, who played their own instruments.  2 or 3 of their other ex-members posted on Soulful Detroit for awhile.  And one or 2 of their members, other than Ralph went on to be members of another famous group.  I can't remember whether that group was The Flaming Embers, or Rare Earth.

     Ralph and his brother Russ were members of the Sunliners who with a few personnel changes morphed into Rare Earth.

[Neil Rushton]

George Clinton told me there are a number of unreleased masters he recorded with/for Gene Redd that were planned to release on Stephanye.

[David Meikle]

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

Ralph Terrana said that he was a member of Detroit's Manhattans group for a while, and they were a self-contained band, who played their own instruments.  2 or 3 of their other ex-members posted on Soulful Detroit for awhile.  And one or 2 of their members, other than Ralph went on to be members of another famous group.  I can't remember whether that group was The Flaming Embers, or Rare Earth.

Ralph was a member of the Sunliners (not the Manhattans) along with his brother Russ and Pete Rivera (aka Hoorelbeke) plus Gil Bridges and two others. Bridges and Rivera joined Rare Earth. Ralph Terrana created Tera Shirma along with Al Sherman. Russ went to Motown and worked with Ed Wolfrum.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/web07-golden world/golden world story/38-gw-sunliners.htm

On the following page you will find detail on Stephanye/Maltese. At the time of writing about these labels nothing much was known about them.

 

Edited April 29 by David Meikle
link added

[Robbk]

4 hours ago, The Yank said:

     Ralph and his brother Russ were members of the Sunliners who with a few personnel changes morphed into Rare Earth.

Thanks, Yank.  I definitely got The Manhattans mixed up with The Sunliners in terms of morphing into Rare Earth.  But, I remember Ralph Terrana mentioning that he had, at one time, "played with The Manhattans".  So, maybe he was in their accompanying band at a few gigs with them, or even a recording session?

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29 by Robbk

[Robbk]

2 hours ago, David Meikle said:

Ralph was a member of the Sunliners (not the Manhattans) along with his brother Russ and Pete Rivera (aka Hoorelbeke) plus Gil Bridges and two others. Bridges and Rivera joined Rare Earth. Ralph Terrana created Tera Shirma along with Al Sherman. Russ went to Motown and worked with Ed Wolfrum.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/web07-golden world/golden world story/38-gw-sunliners.htm

On the following page you will find detail on Stephanye/Maltese. At the time of writing about these labels nothing much was known about them.

 

Thanks, David.  Yes, I definitely mixed up Ralph's Sunliners with Detroit's Manhattans - related into them morphing into Rare Earth.  But my memory of Ralph being with The Manhattans was from a quote of his, when he wrote something to the effect of, "I played with them for a while".  Maybe Ralph played in their backing band on a few gigs, or even in a recording session?  It seems obvious now that my memory of him being a regular group member was of the Sunliners, rather than The Manhattans.

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 28/04/2024 at 18:19, Johndelve said:

You're right, absolutely no way this makes any sense.  In so many different ways.  For a start, as said above, you can't record backing vocals to a song - "Shining Star" - that wasn't even written at the time. No technology in the world can make that a reality.  Yes, of course, if it was just "oohs" and "aahs" but not if one is singing actual words. (Plus the fact that the backing vocals on that record are clearly performed by men. As indeed are all the sixties' Manhattans records I know.)

Elsie Baker sounds a smart, likable and very switched on woman based on an interview I listened to but she also seems to be claiming in that interview that either- it isn't quite clear exactly what the claim is -  The Debonaires recorded "Baby Love" before the Supremes or sang the backing vocals on it. That actually makes more logical sense than the Manhattans' story but I still suspect would be news to most people.

 

It wasn't just The Manhattans

Elsie writing to me October last year

"These Are The Ones I Remember Recording For Teddy: Love T.K.O, It Don’t Hurt Now, When Somebody Loves You Back, The Whole Town’s Laughing At Me, The Love I Lost, I Don’t Love You Anymore, Bad Luck, Where Are All My Friends. There’s Another One That I Can’t Remember The Name Of The Song, If Can Remember It I’ll Send It. We Also Recorded For The Cornelius Brothers, It’s To Late To Turn Back Now, Yet The Group, Sister Rose Took Credit For It Knowing That They Did Not Record It!! So Many Lies In The Business!!"

[Johndelve]

1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

It wasn't just The Manhattans

Elsie writing to me October last year

"These Are The Ones I Remember Recording For Teddy: Love T.K.O, It Don’t Hurt Now, When Somebody Loves You Back, The Whole Town’s Laughing At Me, The Love I Lost, I Don’t Love You Anymore, Bad Luck, Where Are All My Friends. There’s Another One That I Can’t Remember The Name Of The Song, If Can Remember It I’ll Send It. We Also Recorded For The Cornelius Brothers, It’s To Late To Turn Back Now, Yet The Group, Sister Rose Took Credit For It Knowing That They Did Not Record It!! So Many Lies In The Business!!"

In her own interview Elsie states that she left the business circa 1966/1967.....about a decade before many of the songs above were recorded....

[Blackpoolsoul]

1 hour ago, Johndelve said:

In her own interview Elsie states that she left the business circa 1966/1967.....about a decade before many of the songs above were recorded....

The Debonaires recorded many many backing vocals that were then "taken" elsewhere it seams and used later under different credit names.

[Shinehead]

20 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

The Debonaires recorded many many backing vocals that were then "taken" elsewhere it seams and used later under different credit

The femme backup on the Philly tracks were credited to the Sigma Sweethearts.

[Simon T]

22 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

The Debonaires recorded many many backing vocals that were then "taken" elsewhere it seams and used later under different credit names.

So the Debonaires were 'freelance' and moonlighted for several different studios? Presumably their backings were somewhat "generic" so that they could be utilised on multiple recordings with different lyrics and instrumentation. And this was often done in a furtive underhand manner? i.e. the reason they were 'taken' elsewhere?