I'm sure 99% of people agree that The Group featuring Cecil Washington - I Don't Like To Lose - was first played by Richard Searling in the late 70s, well a couple of people on Facebook's 'I Went To Wigan Casino' group page say it was actually first played by Tony Jebb at The Torch,i was too young to attend The Torch so would appreciate any comments on this,i have been assured from two former Torch members that it was 100% first played by Richard Searling.

SLIGHT thread drift however Keith Minshull is adamant that The Tomangoes was played at the Torch, ask Mr J Bentley Esq.

Wouldn't have thought that was in doubt, it was pre-Wigan

Wouldn't have thought that was in doubt, it was pre-Wigan

Agree with Pete, Tomangoes older than the Pyramids would have thought. (don't mean Soul Bros Inc :-)

Aid.

Not often Sam comes off worst in a deal Steve! OUCH

amazing isnt it?, a record such as don gardner, that exists as a mere handful of copies nowadays should be considered as a "mere swop" back in the day...i distinctly remember mick derry from chasetown, having a copy of cheating kind which he, more than likely, got off pep...and that was mid 70's...hindsight's a wonderful thing...if only...

gary halliwell from wigan got one ot john anderson when it was still coverd up and not long after sold it to minshull

Douglas,

I can tell you without any doubt whatsoever that `I Don`t Like To Lose` was first played by Richard Searling at the Casino in 1978. It was discovered by John Anderson on a trip to Detroit. the Anderson/Searling partnership gave the Casino 90% of all the incredible discoveries (both `60s AND `70s) that were played during the clubs` last three years: Jackie Beavers, Court Davis, Little Ann, Larry Clinton, Eddie Holman, the list is massive, as is the debt of gratitude that those of us who were there owe to Mr. Anderson and in particular Mr. Searling. As for Cecil Washington, it will always be `Joe Matthews`, and in my opinion is still the best record ever made. KTF, Casinoboy (AKA Dave Shaw)

Douglas,

I can tell you without any doubt whatsoever that `I Don`t Like To Lose` was first played by Richard Searling at the Casino in 1978. It was discovered by John Anderson on a trip to Detroit. the Anderson/Searling partnership gave the Casino 90% of all the incredible discoveries (both `60s AND `70s) that were played during the clubs` last three years: Jackie Beavers, Court Davis, Little Ann, Larry Clinton, Eddie Holman, the list is massive, as is the debt of gratitude that those of us who were there owe to Mr. Anderson and in particular Mr. Searling. As for Cecil Washington, it will always be `Joe Matthews`, and in my opinion is still the best record ever made. KTF, Casinoboy (AKA Dave Shaw)

That is my view as well,try telling that to a couple of people on Facebook, one of them said he was actually with ex Torch DJ Tony Jebb whilst arguing with me,and he said Jebb claimed that he played it in the early 70s at The Torch (uncovered) i said well how come none of the people who went to The Torch knew its real identity when every man and his dog was trying to find out the real identity of 'Joe Matthews' i felt like banging my head against a brick wall as he accused me of calling Tony Jebb a liar,in my opinion it is simply the case of someone trying to take the credit for the breaking of one of the most iconic NS records ever.

I have had 2 over the years, my mate has one round the corner and another 15 mins away on a good day with the traffic. Keith money and mick smith always have one in toe.

Does it really matter where this was played first? think most agree it was a massive tune for Richard at Wigan. A record that sounded anthemic at the Casino with its massive curved ceiling it worked perfectly. Play it somewhere with poor acoustics ... somehow it never worked as well.

Edited December 30, 201113 yr by monkey

Douglas,

I can tell you without any doubt whatsoever that `I Don`t Like To Lose` was first played by Richard Searling at the Casino in 1978. It was discovered by John Anderson on a trip to Detroit. the Anderson/Searling partnership gave the Casino 90% of all the incredible discoveries (both `60s AND `70s) that were played during the clubs` last three years: Jackie Beavers, Court Davis, Little Ann, Larry Clinton, Eddie Holman, the list is massive, as is the debt of gratitude that those of us who were there owe to Mr. Anderson and in particular Mr. Searling. As for Cecil Washington, it will always be `Joe Matthews`, and in my opinion is still the best record ever made. KTF, Casinoboy (AKA Dave Shaw)

For me too mate

think it was around £120 as far as I remember, despite all the other takes on this story Ray's copy or the one he bought was one of the first to surface for sale, it caused a real buzz in the record bar, Richard still had it covered as Joe Matthews, the seller had it uncovered as Cecil Washington. I can see an exited Pete Lawson now ... telling everyone who the Joe Matthews c/u was. £120 was a lot of money in 79/80 RS had a few months earlier sold Don Gardner cheating kind for a reported £50.

if this was uncovered in 79/80, it was played for a good while as joe matthews. it must first got played 78(ish) as an earlier poster said, I reckon he,s bang on with that

iconic way off,good record agreed it was at the time different,go back a few years when a diffrent record was played at theTorch and taken off mid play....................Jerry Williams!! now that is an iconic record i rest my case

Steve

Jerry Williams vs Cecil Washington, what do we reckon people?

You would have to agree that IDLTL is an iconic tune-wouldn`t you?

Jerry Williams vs Cecil Washington, what do we reckon people?

You would have to agree that IDLTL is an iconic tune-wouldn`t you?

both great tunes......its just that jerry williams classic is like a clitoris!!......every c***s got one

Cecil for me by a country mile.

Cecil for me by a country mile.

Me too, not that I don't like Jerry Williams

That is my view as well,try telling that to a couple of people on Facebook, one of them said he was actually with ex Torch DJ Tony Jebb whilst arguing with me,and he said Jebb claimed that he played it in the early 70s at The Torch (uncovered) i said well how come none of the people who went to The Torch knew its real identity when every man and his dog was trying to find out the real identity of 'Joe Matthews' i felt like banging my head against a brick wall as he accused me of calling Tony Jebb a liar,in my opinion it is simply the case of someone trying to take the credit for the breaking of one of the most iconic NS records ever.

Mate, as you know I got involved with that row when it first kicked off - I've come to the conclusion he was on a wind up, no one in their right mind would seriously belive it was played pre 1978....Someone also put up Some pics of WC to the backing of Herbert Hunter earlier with the comment "pity its a Torch sound" , I nearly spat my coffee over the screen LOL

Mate, as you know I got involved with that row when it first kicked off - I've come to the conclusion he was on a wind up, no one in their right mind would seriously belive it was played pre 1978....Someone also put up Some pics of WC to the backing of Herbert Hunter earlier with the comment "pity its a Torch sound" , I nearly spat my coffee over the screen LOL

reckon that's what it is with half the arguments about played here or there first, a wind up, some just take it too far.

Mate, as you know I got involved with that row when it first kicked off - I've come to the conclusion he was on a wind up, no one in their right mind would seriously belive it was played pre 1978....Someone also put up Some pics of WC to the backing of Herbert Hunter earlier with the comment "pity its a Torch sound" , I nearly spat my coffee over the screen LOL

I honestly thought he was being serious.

Cecil for me by a country mile.

As fantastic as CW is I'd have to go for Jerry Williams - but both great tunes Douglas - All the best for the new year mate

I honestly thought he was being serious.

He may have been serious but mistaken OR....Someone may have wound him up & pointed him in our direction OR ....He was on a wind up. He dug himself a pretty deep hole whatever the scenario, which is why he's like a dog with a bone & won't admit he's wrong .

Cecil and Jerry Williams, both fantastic Northern Soul from different eras, why choose, why not just listen to both and appreciate for what they are.

He may have been serious but mistaken OR....Someone may have wound him up & pointed him in our direction OR ....He was on a wind up. He dug himself a pretty deep hole whatever the scenario, which is why he's like a dog with a bone & won't admit he's wrong .

The funniest bit was when he said he was sitting with Tony Jebb,and somebody else said to him they were sitting with Tony Blackburn.

The funniest bit was when he said he was sitting with Tony Jebb,and somebody else said to him they were sitting with Tony Blackburn.

Yeah it did get quite funny at times - I thought he was gonna blow a fuse at one point & then he removed all of his posts

I bought one off Tim Ashibende´at Leicester Oddfellows fifty quid ,think he had a few copies, long gone though typically

Steve

Same here Steve, though I picked mine off Tim at Parr Hall?

Cecil for me by a country mile.

And Me

both great tunes......its just that jerry williams classic is like a clitoris!!......every c***s got one

:lol: :lol: pmsl

There was rumour of a garage/lock up full of them which no one could get into, probably one of the scenes urban myths. I was also told a story by someone back in the 80's or early 90's that they saw paperwork showing the numbers sold/pressed or other such info and it went into 5 figures. Again might be one of those urban myths. If Cecil is reading this maybe he can shed some light on how it sold or how many pressed.

Remember reading an article late 80's, probably Shades of Soul, by Martin Koppell where he told of seeing a box of hundreds of copies in Detroit but couldn't get even 1 from the owner. Next time he visited they were all gone and the owner claimed to have sold them to the UK, each at a high price.

Obviously the owner did not sell them all to the UK.

Would be interesting if anyone had that article and could post the full details....

Remember reading an article late 80's, probably Shades of Soul, by Martin Koppell where he told of seeing a box of hundreds of copies in Detroit but couldn't get even 1 from the owner. Next time he visited they were all gone and the owner claimed to have sold them to the UK, each at a high price.

Obviously the owner did not sell them all to the UK.

Would be interesting if anyone had that article and could post the full details....

I have all the SOS and I'm going through them for some research. If I see the article I'll scan and post it.

My favourite record of all time x x wish they still played it. If anybody knows a venue that does please could you let me know.

Remember reading an article late 80's, probably Shades of Soul, by Martin Koppell where he told of seeing a box of hundreds of copies in Detroit but couldn't get even 1 from the owner. Next time he visited they were all gone and the owner claimed to have sold them to the UK, each at a high price.

Obviously the owner did not sell them all to the UK.

Would be interesting if anyone had that article and could post the full details....

In an interview Dave Withers said , that although John Anderson found 200 copies of Lou Pride "I'm Com'un home" He has still never seen an original copy !

Dennie Fitz. It gets played here in Stockport at High Lane Con Club.

Cecil for me ! 

I was standing beside Dave Holte in 96 when he bought his at Bretby for £60. I would have been next to look in that box! Doh ! Anyway the record could'nt have gone to a nicer fella. I did't know him at the time and was as sick as a dog i just missed it at that price. I was so close!  Label was'nt in great nick but so what, it sounded great when Dave dropped it at Lowton.

I Got to know Dave later and all i can say is i'm glad he got it , he's a real gent! I picked up the record later myself but to be honest getting to know Dave and his crew at Lowton was a bigger find!

Imo if it had'nt of been Richard it would have been another one of the fine dj's out there so who cares? It does not matter who played it first,its the fact it got played thats really important! These records don't belong to any one person, They belong to everyone. I find the whole arguement of who played it first hilarious! I think you will find Cecil and the group are the real hero's in that respect.

Atb n Ktf

Clint

My favourite record of all time x x wish they still played it. If anybody knows a venue that does please could you let me know.

I played it at Clitheroe last week.

Julian

I can tell you without any doubt whatsoever that `I Don`t Like To Lose` was first played by Richard Searling at the Casino in 1978. It was discovered by John Anderson on a trip to Detroit. the Anderson/Searling partnership gave the Casino 90% of all the incredible discoveries (both `60s AND `70s) that were played during the clubs` last three years: Jackie Beavers, Court Davis, Little Ann, Larry Clinton, Eddie Holman, the list is massive, as is the debt of gratitude that those of us who were there owe to Mr. Anderson and in particular Mr. Searling.

Somewhere along the line everyone seems to have forgotten that Richard Searling

did not just appear on the planet at Wigan in 1979.He had been finding and breaking records

for yonks before that.

He was resident DJ at VA VA'S in Bolton in 1973 and was playing some of the

best new sounds at the time, especially the Arctic stuff Volcanoes etc.

Maybe he even slipped Cecil Washington onto the decks there.

I've said it before, I had finished with nighters by 1979 and I know

for sure I had heard and seen copies of Cecil Washington well before that.

Why doesn't somebody just get in touch with Richard and ask him

if he ever played it out prior to covering it up at wigan.

As for the Tomangoes being a Wigan first play,no chance

Torch sound for sure.

Kegsy

Would not argue about Richards discoverys/playlist etc before Wigan(especially British stuff) but Tomangoes? before Wigan for sure but Torch i think not Catacombs more likely

Steve

I'm not trying to say Richard discovered the Tomangoes, just that it was played before Wigan.

Given that the Cats and Torch were both running at the same

time it may well have been played at the Cats first.

But it was definately played at the Torch as well.

One other thing about Cecil Washinton.

At the time 72/73 most of the records being played were "in your face" uptempo dancers, Tomangoes,Johnny Sayles, Eddie Parker Love You Baby

Sandi Sheldon and the like.

Cecil Washington, at that time, would not have got the same immediate dancefloor reaction and may only have

got a couple of plays and disappeared. There are 100's of records that didnt make it in the

early days only to become massive a few years later when the sound started to change to more midtempo stuff.

Take N.F. Porter If Only I Could Be Sure, everybody knew it because we had the album for

the Oh Baby track, which was played but hardly known on a single in those days.

However I dont remember anyone playing If I Could Only Be Sure.

Kegsy

There was rumour of a garage/lock up full of them which no one could get into, probably one of the scenes urban myths. I was also told a story by someone back in the 80's or early 90's that they saw paperwork showing the numbers sold/pressed or other such info and it went into 5 figures. Again might be one of those urban myths. If Cecil is reading this maybe he can shed some light on how it sold or how many pressed.

A guy in Michigan (Southfield) called Harry Levin had 100's of copies. I had 3 off him in 1990 or so (he's long dead now). He was an old school guy, a real character.

Used to run a "rack jobbing" business in the 60's & 70's and just bought up any stock he could find of anything.

He had a fair few copies of The Hyperions at that time too.

He used to put out weird lists with rare records really cheap (by compariosn) and really common records at very expensive prices (again by comparison).

Basically he would list whatever he happened to come across in his warehouse, and price it up as high as he could and work from there.