John Anderson's Soul Junction Does It Again, Hopkins Bros

[boba]

Bob ,I would wager that there are more unscrupulous people who live your side of the pond ,who make a living out of "hood winking " reclusive artists out of their last copies for peanuts,only to sell em to us fanatics over here ,for big bucks !

sure, just not bragging about how little they paid the artist. like I said in my first response, the people who track records are super secretive.

[NEV]

Sadly Bob ,we live in a very capitalist society and there are a lot of people who need to make ends meet .. My rule of thumb is " never judge a man unless you've walked a mile in his shoes "

[boba]

Sadly Bob ,we live in a very capitalist society and there are a lot of people who need to make ends meet .. My rule of thumb is " never judge a man unless you've walked a mile in his shoes "

I don't think you're following what I'm saying. Bragging about what you did doesn't help make ends meet.

Edited February 18, 2012 by boba

[NEV]

I don't think you're following what I'm saying. Bragging about what you did doesn't help make ends meet.

Your right Bob ,I'm getting morbidly drunk on red wine and becoming all philosophical .lol

[Amsterdam Russ]

I really find it difficult to understand how the frequent calumny/slagging off that is allowed on this site goes on unabated.

Slander: false and damaging statements made verbally or transiently about someone and/or their character.

Libel: statements that are recorded with some degree of permanence. Includes statements made by email and on-line bulletin boards.

It looks bad, feels bad, tastes bad, and by golly it smells bad...>

[Mike]

one post has been unapproved

as per terms of use

I really find it difficult to understand how the frequent calumny/slagging off that is allowed on this site goes on unabated.

Slander: false and damaging statements made verbally or transiently about someone and/or their character.

Libel: statements that are recorded with some degree of permanence. Includes statements made by email and on-line bulletin boards.

It looks bad, feels bad, tastes bad, and by golly it smells bad...>

if you have ANY concerns about any post then yet again will say USE the report post feature

that way mods are aware and can take action if felt needed

as always if you got ought to say about moderation then best do it via the feedback forum if wish reply/discussion

posting up such points while not reporting is a bit off to say the least

threads are moderated and action is and will be taken if felt needed once aware

thanks

mike

[Marc Forrest]

In fact, reading your post again, I can't imagine a single person ever bragging about how little they paid someone for copies of a record (I initially read it as just bragging that they got all the copies). Anyone who would do that is a total idiot. If someone ever actually said that, who was it?

Also, hypocrisy is spelled with an s.

if you cant imagine that I am sorry to attest your imagination somehow seems to be quite limited.

Thank you for the correction of my grammar. when ever you should feel the need to write in my language (German) let me know and I will gladly help and teach you with the same shown generosity.

[boba]

if you cant imagine that I am sorry to attest your imagination somehow seems to be quite limited.

I guess I underestimate how stupid someone can be and how someone that stupid can figure out how to contact a person, run game on them to get their records for nothing, and yet be stupid enough and have so little game to brag about ripping them off later. And that those are the people who claim they are helping the artists? Again, I'm not saying people don't rip people off for records, the bragging about it afterwards AND claiming that they are helping out and respecting the artist is what I'm questioning. Can you give me one example? Every single person I know who tracks artists is super secretive about any records. And I know a large percentage of the people who do it in the US. If someone is publicly bragging it's not like a secret and you should be able to name somebody?

Thank you for the correction of my grammar. when ever you should feel the need to write in my language (German) let me know and I will gladly help and teach you with the same shown generosity.

thank you for the offer, will let you know when I need german proofreading.

actually it was pretty funny, the post is deleted now but james trouble spelled it without an s and with one of the vowels wrong, so you did come ahead on that.

[Marc Forrest]

...and you should be able to name somebody?

I may be able but sure wont do. like it or not, believe it or not..its been part of the scene for over thirty years.

[boba]

My point is this. There are shady people who track records and rip off the people with the records. People have been doing that for a long time. Not just in soul. The vast majority of them are super secretive.

Only a tiny percentage, if any, publicly brag about ripping off the artists and also claim they are helping the artist. The vast majority of them are super secretive, as only a total idiot would brag about being a sleazebag and would claim they are helping people that they hustled. I still don't know anybody who has ever done that, although it's possible one or two people have.

You are using the actions of a few extremely stupid people to label all the people who track artists as hypocrites. Which, along with the point of this thread, means you are possibly implying (I'm not sure) that people who find and reissue material are hypocrites who just rip off the artists. If that's the point you are making, that is just not true.

Edited February 18, 2012 by boba

[Marc Forrest]

You are using the actions of a few extremely stupid people to label all the people who track artists as hypocrites. Which, along with the point of this thread, means you are possibly implying (I'm not sure) that people who find and reissue material are hypocrites who just rip off the artists. If that's the point you are making, that is just not true.

Totally wrong. nowhere did I say all, infact I believe (hope) its the minority.

[boba]

Totally wrong. nowhere did I say all, infact I believe (hope) its the minority.

OK fine, sorry if I misinterpreted what you said. But you did say this:

And this annoys me big time..many people say they care for the music and the artists and tell you a moment later for how much (little!) they managed to get hold of "..all his copies", "all the remaining stock that was there left" etc etc

I know many people in the US who track (or attempt to track) artists and all of those people are secretive and would never brag about ripping someone off (not that all of them rip people off, many of them are very fair actually, but there are a lot of shady people who do rip people off). It would ruin their whole reputation, their whole game, and give other people ways to undermine them to other people and to artists.

Above you say many people track people, rip them off, and brag about it. I don't know any people who do that, despite knowing many people who track artists and even some people who rip them off. This was in the context of a thread of people who track artists and reissue stuff. So it sounded like you were implying that people who do reissues are hypocrites. Even if you aren't (sorry if I misinterpreted you), I don't believe that "many" people are both ripping artists off, saying they respect the artist, and bragging about ripping them off at the same time. They would have to be extremely stupid as they would be undermining their whole practice of tracking down people, and they would be publicly admitting to being shady. In fact, it's hard for me to imagine anyone being that stupid and at the same time even being able to find someone and get records from them. Maybe you know some people that stupid and shady, but I doubt it's "many". Also, if that's true those people should be publicly known (and you should be able to give some examples), since they were public about their shadiness.

[Russ Vickers]

Interesting debate...

We all have different opinions and objectives (and that's good) but the fact is that most people make music in the hope that it will be appreciated by others (sooner or later) so I believe they deserve the opportunity to enjoy some acclaim and to benefit from it.

It's up to whoever owns or controls the music to decide what is issued or reissued - and when. And if they don't make that decision, a bootlegger will sometimes make it for them ...and we certainly don't want that.

It's also worth remembering there are thousands of soul fans all over the world and most of them can't afford to pay high prices for rare records.

Here's a thing - get ya self to a venue where the DJ was playing the original.....remember, just how we used to....reissuing these things to early f*cks em as play records.......these days there aint enough out there to spoil em before they are even broke properly !!!

Most of them don't even get to hear records like this until they are reissued anyway.

There will always be thousands of rare records (or rare issues of records) for rare soul DJs, collectors and dealers to focus on. And that's a fascinating side of things but I don't think it should ever be more important than the music, those who made it and those who enjoy it.

Just my thoughts on this subject.

Paul

[boba]

also, I'm sorry for arguing a relatively irrelevant point. just pointing out that people who contact artists aren't all out to exploit them.

[NEV]

Do you ever sleep Bob ?

[Guest sharmo 1]

Incidentally I've noticed Butch playing Toni & The Showmen recently. We put it out on Kent 4 years ago because of the demand for it (and we own the label) and it's still available. If Butch can go with a sound like that that is in the shops, I don't see why other DJs can't carry on playing their originals of sounds that have been re-released. At OVO dos which is mainly the venues they attend, nobody is gonna be playing the reissues. However I'm more than happy to play the Hopkins Bros at a general soul party or evening piss-up do (not the likes of Solid Hit) and maybe a dancer will enjoy it, ask what it is, look into the story behind it and be a convert to the scene or at least enjoy some of it. Stranger things have happened.

Very good point Ady regards S.

[boba]

Do you ever sleep Bob ?

Today I'm shooting for ending the day much earlier. I guess you'll find out soon enough whether I make it or not.

[NEV]

Simon ,at the risk of over cooking this particular turkey (now pretty much burnt) ...the main issue was not actually to stop re-issues ,as that is impossible and inevitable in the real world .

The main point that angered Andy and others ,is putting them out when the original is still a big play for the guys that have been putting in the hard work to make it a popular record .

Basically the re-issue has taken the shine off a 45 that was part of the life blood at the venue that gave it the cult status it has achieved !

All the posts about artists and royalties etc are not actually the issue ,as none of us are naive enough to think they won't eventually be re-issued .

To prove this point ,I have said many times to friends who talk about other ,let's say ,already well established rare 45's being available on re-issue ... If i have the original and only frequent venues that only play original ,then my record is still a rare 45 and will always be appreciated as such when played out .

Peace out

[Manfromsoul45s]

I think you are all missing the big point here. There are some folk on here that are debating as to how many N. Soul records Tom Jones did.. If that's not the end of the scene then nothing is..

[Dysonsoul]

I think you are all missing the big point here. There are some folk on here that are debating as to how many N. Soul records Tom Jones did.. If that's not the end of the scene then nothing is..

How dare you uncover Mick H and Chalkys secret cover up artist.. there will be bad feeling .. besides Allan Coney and company hold all publishing and rights to them !

[Guest Paul]

Here's a thing - get ya self to a venue where the DJ was playing the original.....remember, just how we used to....reissuing these things to early f*cks em as play records.......these days there aint enough out there to spoil em before they are even broke properly !!!

Hello Russ,

I'm sure I've already said that I can appreciate there's a problem for the rare soul scene if too many hot scene records are made available too early but these concerns should be directed at those who actually reissue hot scene records (not to forget those who bootleg them).

I can't speak for them.

I know next to nothing about today's rare soul scene but I do know that people obviously have different views and objectives regarding legitimate reissues and no doubt this debate will go round in circles.

Meanwhile it's turned out to be a good free plug for Soul Junction.

Best wishes,

Edited February 18, 2012 by Paul

[Manfromsoul45s]

How dare you uncover Mick H and Chalkys secret cover up artist.. there will be bad feeling .. besides Allan Coney and company hold all publishing and rights to them !

Damm!! Sorry Mick. I should have known when he announced it as "It's not unusual" by Jom Tomes

[Guest uroffal]

I don't normally get involved in these often emotive and heated debates, but (and I'm sure the point has already been made more eloquently so apologies for going over old ground) without those DJs keeping the scene alive by searching out, playing and consequently creating demand for 'new' sounds there would be no money for the artists because there'd be no demand for a re-issue in the first place.

I accept that it is not only the 'Rare/Upfront' scene that 'discovers' such obscurities (this point was already made about the Hopkins Bros record), but (and I am assuming a little here as I am no longer on the scene) it's the 'Rare' scene and it's drip feed of sounds to the wider 'Northern Oldies' scene that creates genuine demand and as such potential profit from sales isn't it?

Given the above, surely it would be in the artists' (and those responsible for the re-issues) financial interest to stop the premature release in order to build greater demand? Perhaps I'm wrong and demand will increase further because it'll be played by every Tom, Dick and Harry at Soul nights and 'piss-up dos' across the country, but either way it seems to me that premature re-issue of these sounds is simply shooting everyone in the foot - not just potentially the artists in question here (who I agree deserve to benefit as much as possible), but certainly those yet to be discovered that would benefit from a healthy 'upfront' scene discovering 'new' tunes and creating demand for re-issues.

You can complain as much as you like about the upfront DJs' reaction (and there have been some very good points made), but without them there'll be less opportunity for those artists to gain any of the recognition and/or financial benefit they so richly deserve.

[Quinvy]

I don't normally get involved in these often emotive and heated debates, but (and I'm sure the point has already been made more eloquently so apologies for going over old ground) without those DJs keeping the scene alive by searching out, playing and consequently creating demand for 'new' sounds there would be no money for the artists because there'd be no demand for a re-issue in the first place.

I accept that it is not only the 'Rare/Upfront' scene that 'discovers' such obscurities (this point was already made about the Hopkins Bros record), but (and I am assuming a little here as I am no longer on the scene) it's the 'Rare' scene and it's drip feed of sounds to the wider 'Northern Oldies' scene that creates genuine demand and as such potential profit from sales isn't it?

Given the above, surely it would be in the artists' (and those responsible for the re-issues) financial interest to stop the premature release in order to build greater demand? Perhaps I'm wrong and demand will increase further because it'll be played by every Tom, Dick and Harry at Soul nights and 'piss-up dos' across the country, but either way it seems to me that premature re-issue of these sounds is simply shooting everyone in the foot - not just potentially the artists in question here (who I agree deserve to benefit as much as possible), but certainly those yet to be discovered that would benefit from a healthy 'upfront' scene discovering 'new' tunes and creating demand for re-issues.

You can complain as much as you like about the upfront DJs' reaction (and there have been some very good points made), but without them there'll be less opportunity for those artists to gain any of the recognition and/or financial benefit they so richly deserve.

Post of the thread, and I think it puts across the feelings of the majority very eloquently. I don't think there's anymore to say.

Well put sir.

[Chalky]

Post of the thread, and I think it puts across the feelings of the majority very eloquently. I don't think there's anymore to say.

Well put sir.

And at that think it is time to draw a line under this topic.