Dave Thorley Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Hopkins Bros. - Shake Cheri - Soul Juction John Anderson does it again !!!!!!!!! Another great release on his Soul Junction label, out Fed 20th............. availble from all the usual suspects, for wholesale enquiries www.souljunctionrecords.co.uk Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Dave Thorley Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Great bio from the site The Hopkins Brothers. The Hopkins family originally came from the town of Bethel, in the state of North Carolina. In 1937 Lyman Hopkins Sr and his wife Roberta together with their children Arthur, Frank, James, Sylvester, Margret and Lyman Jr migrated north and relocating to New Haven, Connecticut, where the surviving family members remain to this day. The Hopkins family would eventually go on to be one of the most respected musical dynasties of the city of New Haven's small but vibrant performing scene. The Hopkins brothers and for a while their father Lyman Sr featuring in the line ups of several of the city's most renowned groups throughout the doo-wop era of the 1950's and early 60's. The Scarlets & Five Satins The group initially known as the Scarlets were formed by Fred Parris (the group's lead singer) during his high school days and featured Al Denby, Billy Powers as well as Sylvester Hopkins. In 1953 they enjoyed a local hit in their native town of New Haven, Connecticut with the song entitled "Dear One". A change of name soon followed with the Scarlet's becoming the Five Satin's. As the Five Satins the group recorded "In the Still Of The Night" for the local Standard label. The song became a hit around the New Haven area and was picked up for national release by Bobby Robinson's Ember label, eventually going on to become a million seller. Unfortunately by the time the song reached number 3 in the R&B charts and number 25 in the pop charts. Both Fred Parrish and Sylvester Hopkins had been drafted into the Army. During their absence, Bill Baker stepped up to role of lead singer. Where he featured on the Five Satin's follow up hit "To The Aisle". In 1958 upon his return from the army Fred Parris reorganised the Five Satins, this new line up included Richard Freeman, Wes Forbes, Lou Peebles and Sylvester Hopkins. Who recorded the groups last top 30 R&B chart hit "Shadows" in 1959 for Ember Records. In 1960 "In The Still Of The Night" re-entered the pop charts due to airplay on oldies but goodies radio shows and compilation albums. This renewed interested led to another minor hit "I'll See You Around". In late 1961 Sylvester Hopkins left the Five Satins. Fred Parris continued to lead various different incarnations of the Five Satins, Black Satin and The Restless Hearts on releases for the Checker, Atco, Green Sea, Mama Sadie, RCA, Birth Kirshner, Buddah, Electra and S.G. labels right up to the late 1980's. The Chestnuts. The founding line up of the R&B group the Chestnuts included the two Hopkins brothers, Arthur "Count" Hopkins and Frank Hopkins along with Ruby Whittaker (lead singer) Ruin White and Jimmy Curtis. Their biggest song being "Who Knows Better Than I". In 1956 the Chestnuts recorded their first release "Love Is True" which also featured the Hopkins brothers father Lyman Hopkins Sr in the line up. In 1957 they recorded their most notable hit "Who Knows You Better" for the Standard label. Other releases followed with their final release "Wobble Shank" appearing on the Coral label. The Chestnuts too broke up in 1961. The Hopkins Brothers; Left to Right - Frank Hopkins, Sylvester Hopkins & Arthur 'Count' Hopkins In the late 60's Sylvester, together with brother's Arthur and Frank formed the family group known as the Hopkins Brothers. They eventually recorded a solitary 45 release "Kiss Of Fire/Shake Cheri" which appeared on the small custom Magnetik label on February 9th 1970. The brothers financed the project themselves. The record although only ever being released locally did receive some airplay via the WYBC (Yale Broadcasting Co) radio station sadly never gaining any national recognition. The group distributed and sold most of the copies (usually at any concerts they performed at) themselves, and eventually went on to achieve sales in excess of 2000 copies. In the early 80's Frank, Sylvester and Arthur all sang with a further re-incarnation of Bill Bakers, Five Satins. Although by the time of the Five Satin's 1988 Del Cam release "Fool For A Pretty Face" all the Hopkins brothers had left the group. During 1997 Arthur "Count" Hopkins passed away having lost his battle with prostate cancer. Currently both Sylvester and Frank have brought the curtain down on their performing careers and are enjoying a well earned retirement. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Steve L Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 nice!!! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Dave Thorley Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Tis , think it's gonna sell well for them............... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Mace Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Wonder who chose the pic of the train for the label.......looks like clip-art from a ZX81 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Wrongcrowd Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Sold 2,000 copies on Magnetik.... so not rare then...... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Steve G Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Dave Welding. Played it on Solar last Sunday. Great B side too if you like sweet soul. Edited February 9, 2012 by Steve G 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Agentsmith Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 well done johnno, fab tune and that dyson lad for championing it!! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 My friend and I tried to license this two years ago but they refused, saying that they were going to redo it as a blues version and have a current hit. I guess they had a change of heart. It's great that more people will get to hear this material. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest sharmo 1 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Nice number to reissue (I've had a few myself) probably could have done with another six month's for Andy , Butch and brother Mick ect fantastic record. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Scotters Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Superb record and sure will be nice to have it on a 45 to play at home, but I also hope it doesn't stop me hearing / dancing (sort of!) to the original played out by those who've been lucky enough to have one. 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Steve L Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Nice number to reissue (I've had a few myself) probably could have done with another six month's for Andy , Butch and brother Mick ect fantastic record. You're probably right Simon, it could have done with a while longer I suppose but it is becoming a tad overplayed now Still I'll be buying one, I wonder if this will become accepted by the masses? 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Steve L Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Sold 2,000 copies on Magnetik.... so not rare then...... Makes you wonder what happened to them all Cliff Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Makes you wonder what happened to them all Cliff There are some very rare records that were pressed in quantities of 1000 or more AND distributed. People throw records away. I'm doubtful that they actually sold 2000 copies (versus just pressed them) because I've never seen a trashed, used copy of this, only mint stock. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Steve L Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 There are some very rare records that were pressed in quantities of 1000 or more AND distributed. People throw records away. I'm doubtful that they actually sold 2000 copies (versus just pressed them) because I've never seen a trashed, used copy of this, only mint stock. How many of these have you seen Bob? I thought it was ultra rare? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 How many of these have you seen Bob? I thought it was ultra rare? apparently this used to be around in at least a small quantity, the older doowop collectors who got into soul all had copies (especially given the connection to the 5 satins and chestnuts). I do NOT have a copy, but I'm not an older doowop collector. Have you ever seen a beat up copy? I've seen it maybe half a dozen times, all unused stock. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Jnixon Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Dave Welding. Played it on Solar last Sunday. Great B side too if you like sweet soul. B side is fantastic Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Dysonsoul Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Hopkins Bros. - Shake Cheri - Soul Juction John Anderson does it again !!!!!!!!! Another great release on his Soul Junction label, out Fed 20th............. availble from all the usual suspects, for wholesale enquiries www.souljunctionrecords.co.uk Oh YEH YIPPY I F*CKIN AYE ,WELL DONE TO -ANDERSON ,WELDING OR WHOEVER THEY ARE ,SO ENLIGHTEN US WHY THE NEED TO PUT THIS OUT YET ? IT'S A F*CKIN DISGRACE - TALK ABOUT KICKING THE PROGRESSIVE SIDE OF THINGS WHILE IT'S DOWN ,SURELY THE SO CALLED GREATEST FINDER OF SOUL RECORDS HAS SOME WORTHY UNISSUED MATERIAL TO PUT OUT ? INSTEAD OF SOME OF THE CURRENT LIFEBLOOD SOUNDS ? THAT IN HIS WORDS ARE "NORTHERN SH*TE AND CRAP ! IT'S ALL F*CKED HE REPEATS AND FULL OF W**KERS THE NORTHERN SCENE " WELL IN THAT CASE UNLESS DOIN SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE FOR THE SCENE LEAVE IT ALONE ! 3 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Steve G Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Hey Andy, Don't remember this level of anger when the Ravins or Salt & Pepper came out in the Uk to think of two recent examples? It's one record that's been played for a while now by those lucky enough to have it, and I don't think it'll do irrepairable damage to the rare soul scene by being put out. Salt & Pepper is still played out quite a bit. And the two surviving Hopkins Brothers might actually see a bit of benefit from their work as well. Edited February 10, 2012 by Steve G Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Dean Rudland Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Here's the reason. If you can get the rights and put it out, you'd better do so quickly because every tossing bootlegger will have it on Ebay within seconds if you don't. It would be great to hang around, and Ady C does when its something that is unreleased, but if it is a released item you had better move. I'd rather the group and Soul Junction got some money rather than anonymous on Ebay. 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Ian J Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Have to agree with Andy Dyson on this one. One of the main things that makes a quality niter like Lifeline stand out from the rest is hearing records of this calibre that you can't hear anywhere else. Jon Andersons re-issue will gain credibility with some people whereas a bootleg is just another bootleg. Should not have been released. Edited February 10, 2012 by Ian J 3 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Ted Massey Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 If you compare the sound files to the one on this thread and the one on Ian Wrights Paris pod cast im sure theres some thing missing from the one on here in the mix Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Simon M Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Nice one John Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
KevH Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Primers,Rudy Love,Salt and Pepper - now this.All out to early. 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Johnmcc Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Sounds different to the "real" ones I've heard out. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest gordon russell Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 HAS JOHN ANDERSON NOT GOT ENOUGH WEDGE ALREADY.........HOW MUCH IS HE GONNA MAKE FROM THIS....... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Popular Post NEV Posted February 10, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted February 10, 2012 Reading this today and seeing Andys response has really hit me for six today . The thing is ,in all my time on here I've always known him as the guy who shares his vast knowledge to quell a dispute ,but never get involved in spats . So this has really upset him to come out shouting on a public forum about something he obviously feels very strongly is over stepping the mark ? But rather than pretend to take sides and say I feel this or that about the situation ,can we have a debate about the reason why putting out rare soul records onto re-issues ,is actually a positive move ? My personal feelings are that putting un- issued things onto vinyl are a positive thing ,but as a collector of rare soul ,who has tried hard to get many big elusive things ,including this one ...it disappoints me everytime a elusive want ends up as a re-issue . 6 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Harry Crosby Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Reading this today and seeing Andys response has really hit me for six today . The thing is ,in all my time on here I've always known him as the guy who shares his vast knowledge to quell a dispute ,but never get involved in spats . So this has really upset him to come out shouting on a public forum about something he obviously feels very strongly is over stepping the mark ? But rather than pretend to take sides and say I feel this or that about the situation ,can we have a debate about the reason why putting out rare soul records onto re-issues ,is actually a positive move ? My personal feelings are that putting un- issued things onto vinyl are a positive thing ,but as a collector of rare soul ,who has tried hard to get many big elusive things ,including this one ...it disappoints me everytime a elusive want ends up as a re-issue . Fully understandable response as a collector Nev, unfortunatly, everyone wants there piece of the pie so to speak and there are no morals in business, not saying its right, but its the world of money making. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pomonkey Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 We're all proprietary of our rarest records, but even though I always get grumpy for a moment (or 3) if something I've spent ages finding gets reissued, can NEVER moan if it's a legit reissue where the original artists are (finally!) getting paid Opposite is true 1000% for non licensed repro's, those guys can seriously f#*# themselves. Be glad you don't collect rare 60s garage, lookalike bullshit hell. 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Fully understandable response as a collector Nev, unfortunatly, everyone wants there piece of the pie so to speak and there are no morals in business, not saying its right, but its the world of money making. I guess you could say that a (legal) reissue of a rare hot record is disrespectful of the scene. But "immoral"? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Paul Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Interesting debate... We all have different opinions and objectives (and that's good) but the fact is that most people make music in the hope that it will be appreciated by others (sooner or later) so I believe they deserve the opportunity to enjoy some acclaim and to benefit from it. It's up to whoever owns or controls the music to decide what is issued or reissued - and when. And if they don't make that decision, a bootlegger will sometimes make it for them ...and we certainly don't want that. It's also worth remembering there are thousands of soul fans all over the world and most of them can't afford to pay high prices for rare records. Most of them don't even get to hear records like this until they are reissued anyway. There will always be thousands of rare records (or rare issues of records) for rare soul DJs, collectors and dealers to focus on. And that's a fascinating side of things but I don't think it should ever be more important than the music, those who made it and those who enjoy it. Just my thoughts on this subject. Paul Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
NEV Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Hi Paul Appreciate your comments and thanks for your input . My feeling is ,if it's for the benefit of people all over the world who can't afford the original and it's about giving money to the artists etc ..what's wrong with CD ? Surely this is the best solution ? A compilation cd would be a lot cheaper to produce ,would thus mean more funds available for the true artists ? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Paul Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Hi Paul Appreciate your comments and thanks for your input . My feeling is ,if it's for the benefit of people all over the world who can't afford the original and it's about giving money to the artists etc ..what's wrong with CD ? Surely this is the best solution ? A compilation cd would be a lot cheaper to produce ,would thus mean more funds available for the true artists ? Hello Nev, A CD compilation is more expensive (as far as total licensing costs etc) and takes longer to compile and clear, it's much easier to issue a 7" single and that's still the preferred format - at least for hard-core soul fans and DJs. No doubt it might also feature on a CD compilation later and that would increase exposure. The market for vinyl is quite healthy but still limited (some reissues don't recoup fees and costs) but sales of CDs continue to fall - with a few exceptions - and the value of sales has also reduced a lot because of lower dealer prices. So a track featured on a CD album wouldn't generate more income for the owner because the royalties would be divided between 20 tracks or more on a typical album. It's much better for an owner to receive 100% of royalties from a 7" single than a twentieth (or less) of royalties from an album. The difference is huge unless the CD sells almost ten thousand units at full price... and that doesn't happen very often these days. But your post hit on the real issue which is that some rare soul fans wouldn't object much to a CD release but they aren't happy to see something made available on a 7" single. And that makes this debate more interesting because it isn't the reissue that some people object to, it's the format. Many of us have a kinky fetish wierd emotional attachment to 45s, myself included. Best wishes, Paul Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Bearsy Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Hello Nev, A CD compilation is more expensive (as far as total licensing costs etc) and takes longer to compile and clear, it's much easier to issue a 7" single and that's still the preferred format - at least for hard-core soul fans and DJs. No doubt it might also feature on a CD compilation later and that would increase exposure. The market for vinyl is quite healthy but still limited (some reissues don't recoup fees and costs) but sales of CDs continue to fall - with a few exceptions - and the value of sales has also reduced a lot because of lower dealer prices. So a track featured on a CD album wouldn't generate more income for the owner because the royalties would be divided between 20 tracks or more on a typical album. It's much better for an owner to receive 100% of royalties from a 7" single than a twentieth (or less) of royalties from an album. The difference is huge unless the CD sells almost ten thousand units at full price... and that doesn't happen very often these days. But your post hit on the real issue which is that some rare soul fans wouldn't object much to a CD release but they aren't happy to see something made available on a 7" single. And that makes this debate more interesting because it isn't the reissue that some people object to, it's the format. Many of us have a kinky fetish wierd emotional attachment to 45s, myself included. Best wishes, Paul just out of curiosity Paul, now i know naff all and am i right in thinking you have released legit 45s before if so, does the artist in general in this practice get every penny of profit and is there money in it for the people that get the re-issue rights, do you have to buy the rights or some other way, are the re-issuers doing it for the love of the music or is thier a few quid in it for them too, not saying or implying anyhting im honestly interested to know if the artist gets a % or all the profit. there must be a risk too with some tunes and i think this particular tune could struggle to sel out instantly on release, also how many would need to be pressed to cover costs and give the artists a very worthwhile healthy payday, bootleggers have no royalties to pay so bound to be a profit in it but having to pay royalties and making a difference financially to the artists must be a hell of a financial gamble, btw, im all up for seeing the artists get some well earned extra dosh but sometimes wonder why certain tunes are re-issued when they aint even known to the masses. Bearsy Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Paul Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 just out of curiosity Paul, now i know naff all and am i right in thinking you have released legit 45s before if so, does the artist in general in this practice get every penny of profit and is there money in it for the people that get the re-issue rights, do you have to buy the rights or some other way, are the re-issuers doing it for the love of the music or is thier a few quid in it for them too, not saying or implying anyhting im honestly interested to know if the artist gets a % or all the profit. there must be a risk too with some tunes and i think this particular tune could struggle to sel out instantly on release, also how many would need to be pressed to cover costs and give the artists a very worthwhile healthy payday, bootleggers have no royalties to pay so bound to be a profit in it but having to pay royalties and making a difference financially to the artists must be a hell of a financial gamble, btw, im all up for seeing the artists get some well earned extra dosh but sometimes wonder why certain tunes are re-issued when they aint even known to the masses. Bearsy Hello Bearsy, You raised some interesting questions there! There aren't any rules but it's certainly no charity, it's a business but it's quite a risky business. With soul music (especially on vinyl) sales are quite limited and income from sales can easily be less than amounts spent on licensing royalties (or advances) and mechanical royalties, processing and manufacturing costs, marketing costs, shipping, etc - not to mention overheads. I run a small company, I don't employ anyone but myself, but I have an office / studio so (just like any other business) I have to pay for equipment, rent, rates, utility bills, insurance, taxes etc. These are costs that bootleggers don't have. I don't think anyone gets rich from licensing or releasing soul singles these days (apart from bootleggers, of course). It's usually a sideline of a bigger business or a part-time thing. And most singles are probably issued to promote albums or to bring attention to other products in the catalogue or - in my case - to gain exposure and airplay to generate broadcasting royalties and licensing opportunities. I don't issue many records, I'm more involved in music publishing but I do license a lot of masters to other companies. The most typical procedure is that the owner (rather than the artist) is paid a royalty at a rate which is negotiable but is often around 18% or 20% of the net dealer price. Some companies charge 25% and insist on advances covering high sales. Advances are usually paid on account of royalties, calculated from an estimate / prediction of sales or negotiated by an owner who might say, for example, that $1,000 is the minimum advance he'll accept to issue a license. Advances can be recouped from royalties which will become due but they aren't refundable so the first risk is that royalties may be heavily overpaid before you even press any records. Artists, in most cases, receive a portion of whatever the owner earns, depending on whatever deal they made. In some cases, artists may not be entitled to much (or anything at all) and are sometimes paid additional "royalties" out of goodwill. That's a nice voluntary gesture which is sometimes made by a few companies I'm familiar with. Sadly we can't always be responsible for what an artist might earn from a reissue but I do know they don't earn anything at all from bootlegs. And if a dealer buys an old 45 and sells it at an inflated price, the owner or artist / writer / producer doesn't make anything at all (or gain any exposure) from that vast profit. I can't speak for others but I think I issued six singles on my label last year and only three of them (so far) have recovered all costs. The fact is that some soul singles struggle to sell a few hundred copies. Even CD albums are quite risky these days because of falling sales and lower dealer prices. And when you see a single retailing at £8.99 or £9.99 or whatever, it's worth noting that the amount which goes to the record company is less than half of that (sometimes less than 40% of that if they use other distributors or wholesalers) and they have all the costs of licensing / processing / manufacturing / marketing / distribution etc. But at the end of the day it's quite an addictive business and most artists / producers / writers like their music to be available, even if it doesn't always directly earn them a significant amount of money. Paul Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Bearsy Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Thanks for the reply Paul and very interesting replies, it does seem like a lot of grief for little if no return and possible loss, fair play to anyone that does it the legit way and good luck to them and i suppose if you are going to re-issue a record your better off doing it to a very in demand tune, it must hurt thise that have the original i know it would me after begging stealing and borrowing the money to chase that massive all time want only to see it re-issued and every to dick and harry than can own a copy for a price of pub dinner, good luck in your business Paul oh and fook the bootleggers Bearsy Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Popular Post Dysonsoul Posted February 11, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted February 11, 2012 Hey Andy, Don't remember this level of anger when the Ravins or Salt & Pepper came out in the Uk to think of two recent examples? It's one record that's been played for a while now by those lucky enough to have it, and I don't think it'll do irrepairable damage to the rare soul scene by being put out. Salt & Pepper is still played out quite a bit. And the two surviving Hopkins Brothers might actually see a bit of benefit from their work as well. STEVE,THE RAVINS,TOMMY AND THE DERBYS,SALT AND PEPPER OR WHATEVER THEY ALL HIT A NERVE, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE SURELY UNDERSTAND WHERE I'M COMING FROM ? THERE JUST ISN'T ENOUGH DECENT RECORDS FOR THE UPFRONT SIDE OF THINGS TO WORK WITH.. WHEN THE ODD FEW DO START TO WORK HEY PRESTO ALONG COME THE LEACHES PREMATURELY PRESSING BE IT ILLEGALLY OR SO CALLED LEGALLY (THAT WHOLE SCENARIO IS A CROCK AIN'T IT )THE VERY FABRIC AND FUTURE OF OUR NITER SCENE RIDES ON THE DJ'S ABILITY TO PROVIDE RECORDS THAT YOU HAVE TO TRAVEL TO HEAR ? YOU SAY THE DAMAGE ISN'T IRREPAIRABLE TO THE RARE SOUL SCENE , FOR EXAMPLE WHAT IF MARK DOBSON AND 3 OR 4 OF THE OTHER LEADING UPFRONT JOCKS SAY WHY SHOULD THEY BOTHER ANYMORE -WHICH MAY WELL END UP BEING THE CASE . 6 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Docfish Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Andy, you're spot on here. No surprise, that some of the really really great DJs think about calling it a day, when they provide quality sounds for decades now and they work got destroyed by bloody reissues. It kills the nighter scene and it kills the fun of collecting. Edited February 11, 2012 by docfish 3 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Bearsy Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 STEVE,THE RAVINS,TOMMY AND THE DERBYS,SALT AND PEPPER OR WHATEVER THEY ALL HIT A NERVE, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE SURELY UNDERSTAND WHERE I'M COMING FROM ? THERE JUST ISN'T ENOUGH DECENT RECORDS FOR THE UPFRONT SIDE OF THINGS TO WORK WITH.. WHEN THE ODD FEW DO START TO WORK HEY PRESTO ALONG COME THE LEACHES PREMATURELY PRESSING BE IT ILLEGALLY OR SO CALLED LEGALLY (THAT WHOLE SCENARIO IS A CROCK AIN'T IT )THE VERY FABRIC AND FUTURE OF OUR NITER SCENE RIDES ON THE DJ'S ABILITY TO PROVIDE RECORDS THAT YOU HAVE TO TRAVEL TO HEAR ? YOU SAY THE DAMAGE ISN'T IRREPAIRABLE TO THE RARE SOUL SCENE , FOR EXAMPLE WHAT IF MARK DOBSON AND 3 OR 4 OF THE OTHER LEADING UPFRONT JOCKS SAY WHY SHOULD THEY BOTHER ANYMORE -WHICH MAY WELL END UP BEING THE CASE . would probably be different if it was a rare tune they owned themselves that got re-issued, would someone that owned the rarest of the rare tune buy the re-issue or the boot of it, no but they would probabaly buy the re-issue if they dreamt of owning the original, hence for me what i think is the biggest downside of the scene and will be its downfall of the Nighter scene if the likes of yourself, Butch and a few other top djs finally say up yours ive had enough Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Popular Post NEV Posted February 11, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted February 11, 2012 See for me ,I fully understand that and get it ! Also good to see Paul had the decency to come on and give his perspective ,but for me it's strange in this day and age to risk finances to reproduce something that on the grand scale of things ,is still a small market ? But getting back to the point of the whole argument from Andy,s view ..this record and the others mentioned are what makes places like lifeline special ,and it's that reason people travel long distances to hear them . They are the guys who have nurtured these rare records to the high status they attain. These guys go all out to give us something special ,the records we dont have but lust after ,the venue that provides the top dj's to entertain us ..it's about setting a high standard to make sure people have made the right decision to travel that long distance ,to have been offered something different from the normal social type night ....and then someone with no connection comes along and takes those special tunes ,puts em on re-issues and rips the heart out of the very place that gave these tunes the cult status they have become . Interestingly ,the very people who like to sneer at the rare soul scene ,who attend the more traditional soul nights /weekenders ,will cherry pick these sounds and hammer them to death ,with no regard for the guys who put in the hard work . And a final point from me to those who try to justify the making of re-issues as a means of giving back something to the artists ,if you really care about these forgotten heroes ...there are thousands of artists out there who never made it ,didn't get the riches they longed for ,so how come we only concentrate on the ones who made the records that are rare and oh so desirable ? 5 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Mace Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Hello Nev, A CD compilation is more expensive (as far as total licensing costs etc) and takes longer to compile and clear, it's much easier to issue a 7" single and that's still the preferred format - at least for hard-core soul fans and DJs. No doubt it might also feature on a CD compilation later and that would increase exposure. The market for vinyl is quite healthy but still limited (some reissues don't recoup fees and costs) but sales of CDs continue to fall - with a few exceptions - and the value of sales has also reduced a lot because of lower dealer prices. So a track featured on a CD album wouldn't generate more income for the owner because the royalties would be divided between 20 tracks or more on a typical album. It's much better for an owner to receive 100% of royalties from a 7" single than a twentieth (or less) of royalties from an album. The difference is huge unless the CD sells almost ten thousand units at full price... and that doesn't happen very often these days. But your post hit on the real issue which is that some rare soul fans wouldn't object much to a CD release but they aren't happy to see something made available on a 7" single. And that makes this debate more interesting because it isn't the reissue that some people object to, it's the format. Many of us have a kinky fetish wierd emotional attachment to 45s, myself included. Best wishes, Paul Paul, if the reissue was formatted on a CD single, then I imagine the licensing costs would be the same as a 7" single, and the production costs must be cheaper for a CD than a vinyl record ? I've never bought many CDs to be honest, but seem to recall some well packaged 4 or 6 track CDs on the Joe Boy label (maybe from Neil Rushton). I thought these looked great (was there a VJ one?)...........could the same not be done with just 2 tracks? If packaged with die cut card sleeves printed with sleeve and label artwork akin to original sleeve or label, and possibly on the CDs that look like small vinyl records with grooves etc, they would be attractive to a much larger market....and thus possibly earn both the artist/writer and reissuer more revenue? You state that the preferred market is for hard core collectors and DJs, and I think that this is the true, moreso DJs, but surely this is not a massive market.........so by releasing a 7" only it is limiting the mass exposure, and possible revenue for the artist/writer etc. There will never be any common ground on this debate between collectors of rare soul 45s and those who license and reissue current 'hot' and indemand 45s, other than in the case where the track is previously unreleased. The main crux here, seems to be that the reissue has been released too soon, and whilst I understand that this may have been done to beat the bootleggers, it does affect the Rare Soul Niter Scene, such indemand records do lose their shine to the collectors, DJs, and followers of that scene when reissued....we all know that. Whilst that may seem a small price to pay to those who shout about the bigger picture of earning the original artist/writer a long awaited few hundered $$s, it is fair to say, that without the DJs and collectors of the Rare Soul Scene finding and playing these 'lost' gems, they would remain as such, completely unknown to all on our scene. Crowds are thinning on the rare scene, no doubt about it, and nowadays (especially with the rising cost of fuel and the state of the economy) there must be motivation for people to put £50 - £60 of fuel in their car to drive 100+ miles to hear a DJ play that special something that they can't hear anywhere else.....and reissues such as this one play their part at chipping away at the attraction.......possibly until the point of no return. Of course, some may not care if this is the case, but however small the rare soul scene is becoming, it still constantly drip feeds new discoveries onto the oldies circuit. On a lighter note, at the last Lifeline some-one commented that the 3 known copies of this 45 in the U.K. were all in Brookfields venue on that night......whereas at the next Lifeline it will be morelike 1003 copies 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Popular Post Arthur Fenn Posted February 11, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted February 11, 2012 Nev's last post hits the nail spot on. Won't be adding too much more but as someone who has tried to get/play fresh records for a long long time i'm about at the end of my little road on paying big $$$ for records later to be drip fed at some point on the oldies scene ( as per Mace's comment ). I'm sort of torn between admiration for Ady C & the likes of Soul Junction for giving the Artists a much deserved platform ( 15mins of fame ) and the pure fact that these reissues will definately be played out all over the country by people who haven't put any work into finding them. Guess the days of travel to hear great records will just be a romantic memory for all of us soon , Arthur 10 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Paul Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Hello Arthur, What I'm not comfortable with is the concept that other people can't play a record unless they've put any "work" (or money) into finding it. Soul music isn't an exclusive plaything for the rich. And what about the people who put the work (and money) into MAKING the music? What if they had kept it all to themselves??? Paul Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
NEV Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Paul...who are the rich ? People who travel to all nighters arent the rich ...im not rich ...most collectors arent rich ..the ones that are probably wouldnt entertain going out to a gritty soul all nighter ! I think you'll be nearer the mark saying the guys mass producing are the ones trying to be rich ! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Benji Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 are there really that many reissues of current newies/biggies? I mean if folks are reissueing/pressing each and every newie within 1/2 years after its first spin I sure would agree with Andy D. or Arthur. But folks aren't, from what I understand most of todays "hot" sounds are still exclusive and limited to just a few copies. So what's all the fuss about? And that's leaving out the fact that being against a reissue where the artists would financially benefit from is pretty selfish IMO. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
KevH Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Call me an old romantic,but i prefer to travel to hear rare records. Hearing them on a re-issue 3 miles from home wouldn't get my juices flowing.Like the quote from Nev btw,about the rare scene knockers hammering these re-issues to death,oh so true. 3 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
NEV Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 are there really that many reissues of current newies/biggies? I mean if folks are reissueing/pressing each and every newie within 1/2 years after its first spin I sure would agree with Andy D. or Arthur. But folks aren't, from what I understand most of todays "hot" sounds are still exclusive and limited to just a few copies. So what's all the fuss about? And that's leaving out the fact that being against a reissue where the artists would financially benefit from is pretty selfish IMO. Always a taboo subject killer ...just like the word Charity ! Already been said /discussed ...if it were really about raising funds for artists ...why not support all the other artists who never got any money back in the 60's /70's ,instead of just those who's records just happen to be the biggest trophy's and indemand records around today ? Why not put a charity event on for all these guys ,set up a trust fund for forgotten artists ..make compilation cd's to celebrate their work ? Too simple ,too easy ...the fact is ...the decision to put this particular 45 out on a re-issue piece of vinyl ,is because it is the hottest sound around and fits the bill for many a soul venue ,so its a no-brainer ...let's make some money out of it ! Go to the usa ,find a acetate /tape of a song that's never seen the light of day ,thats sounds incredible ...and then find out who made it ,who owns it ,sort out the legal and get it onto vinyl ! That way you are doing something credible and will be praised for it Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Paul Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Paul...who are the rich ? People who travel to all nighters arent the rich ...im not rich ...most collectors arent rich ..the ones that are probably wouldnt entertain going out to a gritty soul all nighter ! I think you'll be nearer the mark saying the guys mass producing are the ones trying to be rich ! Hello Nev, I was referring to those who pay top prices. Arthur said he'd paid "big dollars" for records and he obviously isn't happy when other people can obtain copies without putting the "work" (or money) into finding them. People can pay big money if they want (obviously if they can afford to) but it doesn't give them any special rights and it's not a substitute for taste. Soul music is often used as a plaything for oneupmanship and I think it's selfish to be obsessed with exclusivity. I'm a music lover and a socialist, I want music to be available to everyone. Paul Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Arthur Fenn Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Hello Arthur, What I'm not comfortable with is the concept that other people can't play a record unless they've put any "work" (or money) into finding it. Soul music isn't an exclusive plaything for the rich. And what about the people who put the work (and money) into MAKING the music? What if they had kept it all to themselves??? Paul Hi Paul, last thing i want is to make a drama out of this but i've got to say that (A) none of the rare soul dj's are rich ( collectors are a different story ) (B) we do what we do because of a driven passion to play what we believe in ( for no financial gain ). As i elluded to in my earlier post ,it is to be applauded that an artist may get some payback, but i'm tired of hearing that the rare soul scene is responsible for paying into an unknown artist's pension. It is absolutely a catch 22 situation that without a dj spending a huge amount of time & dosh unearthing these tracks, the artist in question would NEVER be aware of any love for his/her work. Not to make light of this but i have a running joke at work that for every time a customer opens and closes a door that came from us, we charge 25p 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
NEV Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 So this is a way of sticking two fingers up at those like Arthur who have paid big money for records ?? How about the notion that these rare records were very hard to find ..took say 5 yrs of searching and then were paid for with money that was hard earned ? Im sure its not about owning them ...the way i read it is ..Andy and Mark etc ..put a lot of hard work in to find rare records ,infact discover a lot of them ,they put a venue on to share them with anyone ,yes anyone ,who appreciates rare soul ...but need about 2-300 in a venue to make it worthwhile putting on ..and things like this actually destroy all that hard work ! The 2-300 people are the crux here ...they are not all desperate to own the 45's ,infact some have no desire of owning records full stop ..but they pay to go to a venue to hear what is on offer! 2 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
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