Where is the line between acceptable and unacceptable Northern Soul "pop" records? Where do you draw that line?

As a guide:

Paul Anka - Can't Help Loving You Versus When We Get There

Rufus Lumley - I'm Standing Versus Stronger Than Me

Blue Eyed Soul? The Beat or the Vocals?

Just interested :-)....for a bit of fun!

From a purely personal choice nowt wrong with 3 of those ( just can't stand When We Get There)

But what about the efforts of

Gary Lewis

The Newbeats

Keith

Lou Christie (FFS)

we surely grown out of these now ???

Tony

So, Tony...where is your line? Just as a baseline; I am fairly openminded and not judgemental! There's some attrocious "soul" (rare; therefore pretentious & expensive) records that get hyped and some pretty decent "pop" records that get dissed or just pop records that were accepted (Detroit Soul)...looking back, a lot of the "big tunes" from the day were actually not soul records; although very soulful (Dean Parrish) whereas P.P. Arnold for example sounds quite "poppish"...over to you lot!

I remember one of the first northern records I was turned onto was Billy Arnell - Tough Girl. I definitely see that as being far more pop in sound than your average stomper. was pretty keen on it then but listening to it now I find it to be too big a slice of cheese for my consumption.

we don,t stand........we don,t go

Good shout...picking up on the idea of the thread! The idea that "pop" was introduced to the scene during a particular year or so or by specific DJ's/Venues is nonsense...it's always been there! In fact...aren't they all "pop" records or aspiring "pop" records?

You're getting the idea...what appealed back then may not have the same effect today! So, where is that line???

we don,t stand........we don,t go

Evening Grumpy,hope you well !

I agree with you on this one mate ,

Where is the line between acceptable and unacceptable Northern Soul "pop" records? Where do you draw that line?

As a guide:

Paul Anka - Can't Help Loving You Versus When We Get There

Rufus Lumley - I'm Standing Versus Stronger Than Me

Blue Eyed Soul? The Beat or the Vocals?

Just interested :-)....for a bit of fun!

I prefer Stronger Than Me to I'm Standing myself.

So...Pete Smith, where is your line? Good shout on Rufus Lumley BTW

rufus lumleys best pop tune is minniapolis minnisota

So...Pete Smith, where is your line? Good shout on Rufus Lumley BTW

I don't draw a line anywhere because I love Northern Soul but I also love 60's pop, so it's logical that I will really like an amalgamation of the two, this is why I like records like Ray Merrell, Joannie Somers, Chapter Five and so on. And also because they are great great records. I dislike bad pop records being played as Northern like Tim Tam, Muriel Day, but there's always room for good ones.

Both were massive in their day You can't get more " pop " than these two !!

rufus lumleys best pop tune is minniapolis minnisota

Better than I'm Standing and Stronger Than Me?

So...Pete Smith, where is your line? Good shout on Rufus Lumley BTW

Wait for it ...........The Carstairs , come on Pete we all know you love it really

fok off Terry what about theTorch and the Cats mate?

without pop/blue eyed stomping sound they wouldn´t have been the same or must everything be blamed on the pills :rofl:

All the best

Steve

Ps one record that (for me) epitomises "that" white/pop sound and deserves to be right up there on top fof the heap "Stranger in my arms".............PURE NORTHERN SOUL AT ITS BEST

Agreed steve.........l blame it on youth err and pills......what annoys me is with the passage of time some of us recognise the pop tunes for what they are/were and put them to one side as shall we say mis spent youth......my fav place plays super uptempo soul from the 60's and a bit of the 70's.......thats what l love.............the early days were a nighter/drug scene more than a music scene.....if we're really truthful ....antway how are you learn,t to speak german yet :D ....be good to see ya sometime,we might come over to germany and show you lot how it,s done wey hey tezza

Love some of the pop stuff....its dancers music.Love is a Gamble by Jackie Lee is one that's currently in my head.A mate of mine laughs when I play him rare soulHe's a jazz head.He just says ..its black pop music from the sixties.

As far away as possible. Seriously though, I like to distinguish between a record made by a white artist aimed at a black audience (Dean Parrish) with an evidently black vocal and stuff like Gary Lewis. I was listening to a thing by the Dalton Boys on one of those 'an intro to NS' cds the other day. It had the beat but the vocal was gross .I find the same with the Reflections stuff on ABC and Golden World. It just rubs me up the wrong way, but if folks like it, then fair play. Choices and rights etc...

_{Johnny Maestro 'I'm Stepping Out Of The Picture' as an ender is fabulous. Southside Johnny stole him blind.}

_{Johnny Maestro 'I'm Stepping Out Of The Picture' as an ender is fabulous. Southside Johnny stole him blind.}

I'd love to know how you draw your lines.

Johnny Maestro great, Reflections not.

Agreed steve.........l blame it on youth err and pills......what annoys me is with the passage of time some of us recognise the pop tunes for what they are/were and put them to one side as shall we say mis spent youth......my fav place plays super uptempo soul from the 60's and a bit of the 70's.......thats what l love.............the early days were a nighter/drug scene more than a music scene.....if we're really truthful ....antway how are you learn,t to speak german yet :D ....be good to see ya sometime,we might come over to germany and show you lot how it,s done wey hey tezza

Such a sweeping generalisation again. Were you actually there?

Right in the middle of the grooves wearing the highest heels I can find!

I'd love to know how you draw your lines.

Johnny Maestro great, Reflections not.

I agreee with you. The point I was trying to make was that stuff like Reflections, Dalton Boys etc rub me up the wrong way and that artists like Dean Parrish and Johnny Maestro don't 'cos to me they sound black. There are artists of course that are black that sound (to my ears) white, almost croonerish. Gene McDaniels for example.

Such a sweeping generalisation again. Were you actually there?

Can't wait for Gordon, Peggy, Tezzás response to this.

Can't wait for Gordon, Peggy, Tezzás response to this.

Macca, I know he was there but his comments are so often removed from what I, and I suspect a lot of others, remember from this period.

More than a music scene, I don't think so. Just my opinion, mind.

I agreee with you. The point I was trying to make was that stuff like Reflections, Dalton Boys etc rub me up the wrong way and that artists like Dean Parrish and Johnny Maestro don't 'cos to me they sound black. There are artists of course that are black that sound (to my ears) white, almost croonerish. Gene McDaniels for example.

Reflections?

Recorded at Golden World

Sang songs by Popcorn Wyie, Freddie Gorman, et al

Tracks played on by Funk Brothers

Steeped in Detroit's musical heydays same as Shades Of Blue at Impact with Harry Balk and Duke Browner.

Methinks you've fallen for the 'party line' Macca lad.

Regards,

Dave

https://youtu.be/ojNQz-NjlZg

Yes, yes.. I know the musical pedigree is irreproachable, obviously. Just never been really keen on their vocals. You'll have to explain that party line thing to me, and In plain English, as you know I went troppo yonks ago, hahaha...

Edited October 20, 201213 yr by macca

Such a sweeping generalisation again. Were you actually there?

where?..........name the venue........you obviously were not

we just accept it as part of our fabric. northern soul now is even more of a patchwork quilt with the inclusion of rnb, latin, popcorn, beat ballads and all manner of modern stuff and the proverbial pop record still features heavily...like a fine wine, some "white tunes" age better than others,...i dont, for instance, think any of the carolina's stuff, that has influenced the scene for a good many years now, has waned...very few black vocalists on many of the well known ones as we all know, maybe because in the main, they're all frantic uptempo offerings. does it really come down to drawing the line,...and lets get to the crux of the matter here, where U.K. releases are concerned...about a different country having a go at mimicking good ole' U.S. of A.?. because, prior to the advent of motown, what did we really have here?....simples,...POP,..which was trying to find a direction after exhausting rock n roll. then the beatles came back from their first tour exhalting this "new black sound" thatwas sweeping america...and everyone and his dog wanted to make their sound upbeat and hip. and i suppose the djs back then also decided that they'd supplement their record playboxes which had such a limited quantitiy of american imports with british fillers, groups and artists aping the sounds from across the water...eventually they started writing their own compositions...so those lads in barrow-in-furness gave us the cbs collectable "you dont mean it" and sue lynn squeeled, "dont pity me",...then the eurovision also-ran spouted "9 times out of 10". in the states celeb white artists jumped on the black bandwagon hoping for a belated hit, but fortunately for us in blighty, they presented us with some quality tunes that still fit the bill.

we accept it for what it is....part of our fabric...northernsoul is the only music phenomenon to embrace a kaleidescope of influences...would the scene have burnt out had we relied only on black imports?...who's to say. some will say that the scene is shagged out now, but there are generations emerging out there, who are seeing this music for what it is and what it represents, and to understand northern soul and its beginnings is to understand how pop music has been an underlying driving force in where its got today.

A bit deep, really do you like blue eyed soul per-so-nal-ly? to quote a white man

Steve.........having fun

you know me & eulogies steve uncle ted loves em as well as mentioned here, lynn randell, paul anka and what about the tempests?...yes, some of em do float my boat

where?..........name the venue........you obviously were not

Oh but I was there. It was a music scene, everything else was incidental. You just want to assume that nobody does it your way because as we know 'you're on the scene' as you constantly remind us ad f*cking naseum.

Oh but I was there. It was a music scene, everything else was incidental. You just want to assume that nobody does it your way because as we know 'you're on the scene' as you constantly remind us ad f*cking naseum.

You was where?..........bit like now fella nowhere...........the early days were never a music scene....if you don,t get that ,but hey l already know you don,t

Where is the line between acceptable and unacceptable Northern Soul "pop" records? Where do you draw that line?

As a guide:

Paul Anka - Can't Help Loving You Versus When We Get There

Rufus Lumley - I'm Standing Versus Stronger Than Me

Blue Eyed Soul? The Beat or the Vocals?

Just interested :-)....for a bit of fun!

..first thing to remember.. Northern soul has never been exclusively black!..far from it..and trying to separate black from white is virtually impossible..if you go further down the line how many white people were involved with a Northern song? session men,writers,producers,arrangers etc..its always about the record..I still like keith & gary Lewis..more from a nostalgia view..but dont like Muriel Day, Peggy march..and its interesting to also recall those who tried to distance/slag off white northern after they'd been playing it for years..(Levine amongst others)..i stand alongside black and white..there are as many crap black records as white (soul) but 40 odd years after Northern soul became, the pot is drying out..so records never before considered are now accepted and sometimes raved about...i would say if you dont like Paul Anka or Michael & Raymond you are tone deaf! a snob..or have never been to a decent allnighter!

rufus lumleys best pop tune is minniapolis minnisota

I'm a BIT biased toward this song since I live in Minneapolis!

I agree with the person who said you cannot seperate the white from the black on this and weve had this discussion before - the slant this time is the pop angle where most people associate white with pop but wouldnt it be great if someoone went on a show on tv and said they could tell white from black in relation to soul music - Instant fail IMO p.s. Condition Red is pure pop but one of the greatest Northern soul instrumentals of all time.

I dont like Muriel Day at all - detest it but likewise I dont Barbara Lynn - Im a good woman - Its the record I dont like. I dont like Country & western but I love I wanna know by John E paul. Horses for courses as always. Yesterday I played what I called a poppy soul record on radio Jan Mitchell - Things I shouldnt have done

I dont know if she is Black or white and I dont care - I just like it! Could you imagine all the Northern soul records we would dismiss if we equated soul only to Black artists because we dont in general regard black artists as pop artists within our genre of music we like! Thats the next title for John Manships book writing to go with the collection. US/UK White soul artists.

i think its probably more of a nostalgic thing for most at least for those obvious white sounding tunes..

i got into it in the early/mid 80s from the youth club and then scooter scenes so while some are way too cheesy for me now there are those that i still love,my girlfriend nicci while always knowing of northern and having a liking for soul but never on the scene in her younger days wasnt exposed to the american pop we did so now she doesnt get the blue eyed soul as much...it sounds too clean cut for her

I guess if they had sold well then they would all be pop records. Back in the day at WC or Yate or St Ives etc certain tunes at the time were part of the fabiric and made the scene what it was/is. However over time as a collector I find I have deleted certain tunes in my mind, would not play them BUT others which I may not have appreciated at the time have risen in stock to me.

Cant really say I ever liked Tim Tam,Joe 90 et al but back then I did like and buy Bobby Goldsboro.Such is life and possibly why the scene is so rich.

Funny end bit. Was d-jaying and played Billy Woods on Sussex, the next DJ played a boot of the Belmonts. Each to their own I guess.

Always going to be pop played on the Northern scene as it's the only music genre there is that rely's 100% on other music genre's for it's music & cherry picks what fits beat & vocal wise. OK there are a few tailor made things like Ian Levine's stuff, Kings Go Forth, Eli Paperboy Reed etc but you can't really count them.

Also wonder where people stand on the Drifters, Pop? Soul? both?

I remember the definition of Northern Soul also being muted as Northern Dance music to 'permit' inclusion of white artists.

Love Northern, love Doo Wop, love 60's soul - BUT - only the ones I like.

Never stop getting a buzz when Beverley Ann - You got your mind begins.

Then theres Lynn Randell, Nancy Ames and how could anyone not have a soft spot for Mitch Ryder

If you are middle aged and dancing to the Candy & The Kisses - Do the 81, then you are in fact not quite right in the head.

Blue eyed soul? I doubt it, but I seem to recall this getting an outing at some point in the '80s

Steve Alaimo - Every Day I have to Cry....... from 1963 and written by Arthur Alexander, also covered by Dusty

https://youtu.be/dfMRv_g7SIM

Where is the line between acceptable and unacceptable Northern Soul "pop" records? Where do you draw that line?

As a guide:

Paul Anka - Can't Help Loving You Versus When We Get There

Rufus Lumley - I'm Standing Versus Stronger Than Me

Blue Eyed Soul? The Beat or the Vocals?

Just interested :-)....for a bit of fun!

Don't know if anyone can draw a line, its all subjective isn't it? Stuff like Muriel Day, Val Mckenna, Johnny Vanelli etc are pop records which were recorded as such but picked up by the scene as they had the right tempo and feel. They were loved by many at the time but as the years go by I think we become more selective on what's soul and what's not. Having said that always loved Beverly Ann which is c&w/pop/soul!!!

Edited February 20, 201312 yr by AndyJ

I love some really non black northern pop sounds to be honest, wouldnt dream of playing them out, there just grt pop tunes in ther own right. Others beverly anne being one example i detest with a passion.

I don't draw a line anywhere because I love Northern Soul but I also love 60's pop, so it's logical that I will really like an amalgamation of the two, this is why I like records like Ray Merrell, Joannie Somers, Chapter Five and so on. And also because they are great great records. I dislike bad pop records being played as Northern like Tim Tam, Muriel Day, but there's always room for good ones.

there ya go pete you,ve finally come out with it..........you like 60's pop music (absolutely fine and dandy).....so when they take some of it, as in your golden years and at the club most guilty of it and play the stuff , stands to reason you,re gonna like it.......but it,s still pop not soul..........l rest my case :D ........nowadays the better clubs play soul....and have long consigned the pop to the rubbish bin....wey hey :D .....before anyone lynch's me yep it,s O.K to like other forms of music.....JUST NOT AT A SOUL DOO!!! ATB

Edited February 20, 201312 yr by gordon russell

I remember the definition of Northern Soul also being muted as Northern Dance music to 'permit' inclusion of white artists.

Love Northern, love Doo Wop, love 60's soul - BUT - only the ones I like.

Never stop getting a buzz when Beverley Ann - You got your mind begins.

Then theres Lynn Randell, Nancy Ames and how could anyone not have a soft spot for Mitch Ryder

At last someone with taste.

But seriously, don't forget how young we all were when these records were being played. A lot of the stuff from the 70's sounds very "twee" nowadays. People's tastes change as they get older and that's a fact. Or if they don't then they are living in the past.

Going off topic slightly here. There seems to me to be a large number of people on this forum who don't go out on the scene anymore, and haven't done so for a very long time. Or, they have only been to the nostalgia type of event, and yet when records from the rare and underplayed scene are being discussed, they will dismiss them as rubbish, having played a sound file on their computer.

Now here's my point. It's very easy to dismiss a record that you hear in the cold light of day on a poor quality sound file or even on a CD.

I remember when I first discovered the northern CD's that Goldmine and others were doing around 2000 I think it was. I had left the scene in 1976 and wasn't even aware that the scene was still going. I couldn't believe my eyes. Anyway, I started collecting those Cd's with a passion. Firstly reliving my youth, but then discovering the stuff that had been played after 76.

Now here's my point. After a couple of years of collecting Cd's, the quality of tunes started to go down hill. I was hungry to hear more quality new stuff, so I started going out to soul nights in the north west. After a couple of years of that I was bored shitless with the same old same old. So I went to some allnighters, and bingo!

The thing is, most of the stuff that I was loving at the allnighters, I already had on CD, but had discounted as rubbish when I played it at home. I had been looking for music that fit into the northern sound of the 70's. when you listen to music at home you tend to go for stuff with big productions and meaningful lyrics. When you are at an allnighter with the atmosphere, dark, sweaty, and the music blasting out and you are in the zone, then that's when you really hear a tune.

As an example stuff like: Lover - De-lites, Hey Girl - Vondels, Good thing going - Executive Four, and yes really, Eddie Parker - Gone. I had dismissed as rubbish until I heard them at a nighter.

It's dance music, not listening music. You must hear it on a big system to get it, I've had to hold my hands up a few times to say "I was wrong, it's grown on me" If it moves you, it's northern.

rufus lumleys best pop tune is minniapolis minnisota

yes its shite

yes its shite

never said it was good.........just his best pop tune........luckily it,s not played ever where l go wey hey