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Stylus And Cartridges Please Help

Posted

It's time to replace my Stanton 500 AL II

I'm really really embaraced to ask for advice as i don't know anything about the subject :/ first the terminology - stylus is needle right? cartridge is the body which holds the needle, right? and there is shell... cartidge is going on the shell?

http://www.juno.co.uk/products/stanton-500-al-ii-twin-cartridge/106565-01/

so this is cartridge without stylus? and it needs the shell to be placed on right? i have Technics shells, which were on the almost brand new decks, when i bought them a while ago.

i'm looking at Ortofon cartridges and i don't see the need for the shell for them? there's a sale topic with one Ortofon Concorde DJ S and there's a mention of used cart and new stylus.. cart would be cartridge, right?

After someone explains what is what :) please advise which would be some of the best buys.. playing funk,soul and disco 45s.. taking them for gigs. Also playing Jazz.. and a lot of electronic music as well. mixing, no scratching.

Would like to order from Juno as i'm already ordering Magma bag through a friend who has DHL discount + no custom fees.

any advice much appreciated! :hatsoff2:

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Posted

There's a lot of info & technical stuff on this subject on Ortofon's website. I recently swapped Ortofon Concordes for Shure White Label (which are also the all in one head / cart thingys like the Concordes). Not cheap but I personally think they sound superior across a wide range and age of records plus also easier to work with. :thumbsup:

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Posted (edited)

The one point I'd make is to go for a conical stylus/needle rather than elliptical as this tends to give a better sound on older vinyl and produces less ware on the grooves.. (plenty of tech talk about it if you want just google "conical elliptical stylus")

The rest you seem to understand well enough :thumbsup:

ATB

Greg.

Edited by ClearVinyl

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Posted

HI STANTON NO LONGER MAKE THEM, HOWEVER COPYS OF THE 500 ARE ABOT £8, CARTRIDGES WHY DO YOU NEED TO CHANGE THAT? THEY LAST & LAST FOR MANY YEARS, IF YOU WANT TO WAST YOUR MONEY SEND ME A £5,,,DAVE K

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Posted (edited)

Stanton do still make them but have changed the model number and shape, but they are still basically the same.

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item2a25fada51

If you want to upgrade to Ortofon, you can get these that will fit directly on to your 'Technics' headshell

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item3cbdb8e738

To be honest, I would stick with the Stantons, they or more rugged and still sound excellent. Ortofon are nicer looking but are more for club use, but Stanton are an all round winner.

If you want to go the whole hog and change your cartridges for Ortofon getting rid of your Technics headshell, then you want these or similar. These will screw directly on to your tonearm as the Technics headshells do.

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item5d3628dc90

Hope this helps.

PS- I used to sell carts (Cartridges) and styli for years in my records shops.

Edited by Steve Luigi

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Posted

I agree with 71 Steve, had them White Label for years untill I totally decide to improve with vintage... mono read.... turntable, arm, etc. My pair of Shure White Labels headshells and needles are still in my DJ bag though. Since you can't always trust nor relly on those ones already there, I can always know what I'm gonna read my records wiith even whan I DJ. Only down side I see with those White label is their shorter than average life span. The needle is quiete fragile and you hear when they are tired a bit already. So price included makes them dearer. But all those I know using them are happy with them and the sound improvement they hear listening to their vintage records once again.

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Posted (edited)

shure N97XE is another option to look at for use with 6t vinyl

Edited by soulcarp

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Posted

problem with the stantons is that stanton no longer sell just the replacement needles for them, you have to buy the cartridge (which you obviously already have) again to get a new needle, so stupid. the cheap aftermarket (not stanton branded) needles for them sound terrible for some reason.

anyway, get Shure white labels if you don't want to mess with headshells, they even come with little metal carry boxes to transport them. i had ortofons a while back & the shure's are much better for 45s at least.

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Posted

Stanton do still make them but have changed the model number and shape, but they are still basically the same.

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item2a25fada51

To be honest, I would stick with the Stantons, they or more rugged and still sound excellent.

Hope this helps.

PS- I used to sell carts (Cartridges) and styli for years in my records shops.

Plus "HI STANTON NO LONGER MAKE THEM, HOWEVER COPYS OF THE 500 ARE ABOT £8, CARTRIDGES WHY DO YOU NEED TO CHANGE THAT? THEY LAST & LAST FOR MANY YEARS"

This is poor advice no matter what you used to sell in your record shops. As Kris says and is 100% accurate, the Stanton 500 cart and styli are defunct. They no longer manufacture them and the replacement styli is almost impossible to find as a stand alone item now, which is why you have buy the Cart/styli package every time you want to change the stylus. It's OLD STOCK, nothing more. The generic copies that Dave refers too (Chinese ?) of the 500 styli is a cheap knock off that will damage your 45s eventually.

If you prefer the Stanton Brand then you could purchase the 520 Cart and Styli package but I personally would spend the extra and go for the Shure White Labels so you are guaranteed a supply of needles in the future.

I ran the Stanton 500 v3s for 5 years and can't for the life of me understand why they've stopped the replacement stylii. I've gone for the Shure White Labels rather than keep buying replacement carts for no good reason.

If you're looking for a cart/stylus for home use the you can't do better than a Grado 200DJ. (I used these for 5 years for the Hitsville weekender but they are a little too fragile for some blokes! LOL!) Everyone that has used them that I speak to are impressed with them, they'll pick up sound you didn't know was there. Not cheap though.

Regards,

Dave

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Posted

For DJing you should probably only use a conical cart if you play any styrene. Ideally you would use one for styrene at home also. Elliptical carts reveal more detail in the audio and are better if you have a nice setup. Otherwise you might just want a good sounding conical cart for home also.

re: headshell, it is a total bitch (at least if you're not experienced at it) to mount a cartridge correctly in a headshell and attach the wires. Every time I have bought a new cartridge I have bought it from somewhere that sold headshells also and asked them to wire it up. A headshell is cheap.

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Posted

I've used ortophons for years,cant fault them,currently have concorddj's,conical stylus,buthav a pair of eliptical i use from time to time tried the white labels,but found them a bit fragile,the concordes are a good entry range set up

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Posted

Thanks for the advices guys :thumbsup:

i was looking at Grado DJ200i.. it's only 15 euros more than Shure white labels + i get replacement stylus..

but the problem is with tracking.. i will have severe cueing, backtracking when mixing electronic and i've heard that these will be no good for that.

If you are the only person that's going to be using them then I'd certainly consider them. I love 'em at home. If you're using them on a rig that DJs will be using publicly then I'd look for something a little less 'fragile' in terms of 'ruggedability'. In September I went through 3 of these styli in a period of about 8 hours. Not cheap at 50 quid a throw.

Regards,

Dave

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Posted

What happened with my post? Quite a long one?

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Posted

Shure white labels are nice but be wary that they're very, very delicate. I had a pair of needles that got damaged on the first night of using them (without excessive DJ use either).

I heard a DJ using Stanton Trackmaster.V3 MP4's the other day for 45's......very loud response with light contact. I'll be researching more about these guys for my next set, I reckon.

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Posted

I'll write again...

thanks for the advices people!

it's a hard task as i am obviously looking for an all round stylus. It will be only used by me, at home.. and bringing them to club (where i play funk,soul and disco 45s, with some 12"s as well). I'll be doing A LOT of recording in the next period, so that's something that's important for me. Home listeining (and recording) - jazz, electronic, funk/soul/disco spectrum. I was looking at that Grado DJ200i, eliptical.. which seems a nice choice, but i've read it has a bad bad tracking.. and that's a problem when i mix electronic music with a lot of severe cueing, rewinding forward and back etc.

what about cartidge use? is there any wear to them and do i only need to change the stylus basically? and how often should one change the stylus, if we are talking about very frequent usage?

ok Grado DJ200i is elliptical - what about stanton 500, shure white label, concorde dj s?

can someone comment the text bellow.. please don't erase it, as someone can use it.. though i addmit that there are probably very few who knows nothing about the subject like me :(

Conical or Spherical. This tip shape resembles the tip on a ball point pen. Because of the symmetrical design, needles with conical design are the least costly to manufacture. However, they also produce the lowest level of fidelity and the greatest record wear. This is because the contact area of the diamond is restricted to two very small points, one on each side of the diamond. This places the entire downward pressure (commonly referred to as tracking force) on the two very small areas of contact, resulting in increased record wear. Conical needles are also not conducive to accurately retrieving the smaller groove modulations that represent the higher frequencies.* Conical tipped needles are best used when ruggedness and economy are the deciding factors. This type of stylus cut also minimizes the amount of surface noise, ticks, and pops that you will hear and is a good choice for those who are playing very old and beat up records.

Elliptical. Also called bi-radial, this tip shape presents a knife edge to the record. This very popular tip shape provides a good balance between performance and cost. In the elliptical cut, the diamond's contact area is elongated vertically and made more narrow front to back. The greater vertical contact area distributes the tracking force over a larger area of the groove wall. This results in less pressure per square inch — hence less record wear compared to a conical shaped tip. The narrower front to back facing provides the diamond with a shape better suited to recovering smaller high frequency* groove modulations.

* smaller groove modulation = deep in the groove (pit) = high frequency

* bigger groove modulation = top of the groove = bass frequency

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Posted

The concorde cart takes either stylus,i use both,conical for dj use & eliptical for home ,great results with either

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Posted

Ortofon's work perfectly with Technics for me, treemndous sound. Ensure you clean your records though, they don't respond too kindly to dirt.

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Posted (edited)

The balance between eliptical and conical is one of the major choices in putting your system together but not the only one - weight, tonearm, amp, mixer etc etc

However, in general the eliptical will produce a better range of production - good for hearing the detail in recordings and the medium, high and low ranges - but your quote above is incorrect imo i.e. the eliptical tip will ware records more quickly because to dj or play older vinyl you need to use max tracking force . So an eliptical needle is best for home use on clean records that get light play that need little tracking force - as any flaws in your vinyl will be more pronounced. So Mozart on pristine vinyl (and any good quality 12's) will give an audiophile reproduction with a needle like Grado, Audio Technica or Shure's phono range but your old soul/funk 45's maybe won't sound so good, will ware quickly and the needle will rapidly degrade.

For repeated use on 45's, that you back cue etc, then conical/spherical are more forgiving i.e. Shure M44-7, Whitelabel etc etc When prople use the phrase "a bit beat up but ok for DJing" that's in the main due to the forgiving nature of sound systems used that mainly used conical needles/tips..

So eliptical in the music room and conical in the record room or club :ohmy:

Hope that helps a bit :thumbsup:

Edited by ClearVinyl

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Posted

one more thing to add to clearvinyl's post above. if you're not sure about your turntable setup at home, and it might be mistracking, ellipticals will tear up your records when mistracking. so probably you should be sure about your turntable setup and calibration before using ellipticals. but when set up and calibrated correctly, ellipticals will reveal more detail in the sound.

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Posted

Thank you people.. really appreciate your help!

Yeah you see Greg, that's what's pissing me off.. as much as i read there is always someone who says "it's the other way around, actually" :)

maybe shure whitelabels are a good choice.. for now. now i'm pissed as someone bought that last Magma bag oooo damn!

i have one more question - about the cartridges. How much do they wear? should i go for used cartridges and new stylus, if it's cheaper?

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Posted

I've used Shure White Labels for years, however I would never leave the house to dj without having at least two replacement styli.

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Posted

I've used Shure White Labels for years, however I would never leave the house to dj without having at least two replacement styli.

Nick,

Why? Is that because of wear or fragility? I've just changed 4 Stanton headshells out for Shure WL's so am interested in their longevity and robustness, 9or lack of it), when used by a group of DJs.

Any help appreciated.

Dave

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Posted

If you want to upgrade to Ortofon, you can get these that will fit directly on to your 'Technics' headshell

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item3cbdb8e738

these are what i changed to in my stanton carts a couple of months ago and i love them, nice and easy to handle too

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Posted

Nick,

Why? Is that because of wear or fragility? I've just changed 4 Stanton headshells out for Shure WL's so am interested in their longevity and robustness, 9or lack of it), when used by a group of DJs.

Any help appreciated.

Dave

Hi Dave

It is because of fragility. I find that the stylus can easily be damaged and knocked out of line.I dj every Saturday for 3 hours in a busy club playing vinyl so my needles are constantly being back cued ( not that this causes a problem to the needle ) and sometimes end up in the runout groove, they just generally get knocked about.

I cant afford for a needle to be knacked, 3 hrs , 1 deck...... :(

I have also broken needles when inserting a new needle into the cartridge, its usually quite a tight action and even pressure needs to be applied slowly on both sides of the needle.

Apart from that, I think that the clarity and sound reproduced from the cartridge, I play a mix of 45s, vintage jazz and latin lps and modern production 12"s,

is much better in a club setting than the concorde equivalents.

Oh, and the funky metal cases look the business too.

Nick.

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Posted

Hi Dave

It is because of fragility. I find that the stylus can easily be damaged and knocked out of line.I dj every Saturday for 3 hours in a busy club playing vinyl so my needles are constantly being back cued ( not that this causes a problem to the needle ) and sometimes end up in the runout groove, they just generally get knocked about.

I cant afford for a needle to be knacked, 3 hrs , 1 deck...... :(

I have also broken needles when inserting a new needle into the cartridge, its usually quite a tight action and even pressure needs to be applied slowly on both sides of the needle.

Apart from that, I think that the clarity and sound reproduced from the cartridge, I play a mix of 45s, vintage jazz and latin lps and modern production 12"s,

is much better in a club setting than the concorde equivalents.

Oh, and the funky metal cases look the business too.

Nick.

Thanks Nick, that's great info. Very useful. The reason I changed from Grado to Shure WLs was that exact same reason. I love the Grados and will continue to use them at home for sure but they are certainly to suceptible to shaky hands or bad eyesight! LOL!

I've done the change now so I'll ensure I have a few spares needles for the WLs before we start and have a couple of new Stanton V3 500s I've still got, just in case.

Damn! I thought I'd solved this problem.

Regards,

Dave

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Posted

That fragility concernes me.. well i'll just have to be more carefull then.

What about buying used cartridges and new needles - how's that for an idea?

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Posted

That fragility concernes me.. well i'll just have to be more carefull then.

What about buying used cartridges and new needles - how's that for an idea?

Maybe Mister Claus could help you out, drop a few hints if there is someone to pick up on your 'suggestion' ?

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Posted

Using an elliptical ortofon nightclub cartridge/stylus with tracking force at 1,5g (a lower tracking force than recommended by the manufacturer which is at 2-5gram),will this damage vinyl or styrene?

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Posted

it is said that a lower tracking force can also do damage as the needle does not sit as soundly in the groove & can vibrate from the signal & this can cause wear within the groove as well.

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Posted

I see.But as long as the needle stays in the groove and doesn't skip,and the sound quality is good (no distortion etc),could there still be damage to the vinyl/styrene with lower tracking force than recommended by the manufacturer?

Haven't noticed any problems on my records so far?...

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Posted (edited)

That fragility concernes me.. well i'll just have to be more carefull then.

What about buying used cartridges and new needles - how's that for an idea?

I can't see a problem with that, it's exactly what I did. Got 2 single Shure White label carts (used) off ebay at good prices then replaced the stylii with new ones. Kept one old but ok stylus as an emergency reserve. Have to say that despite what I had read prior to purchase, they have proved not to be as fragile as I expected.

:hatsoff2: - Kev

Edited by KevinKent

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Posted

I see.But as long as the needle stays in the groove and doesn't skip,and the sound quality is good (no distortion etc),could there still be damage to the vinyl/styrene with lower tracking force than recommended by the manufacturer?

Haven't noticed any problems on my records so far?...

yes. mistracking means the needle isn't riding correctly. It might be playing back fine while at the same time damaging the grooves.

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Posted

I can't see a problem with that, it's exactly what I did. Got 2 single Shure White label carts (used) off ebay at good prices then replaced the stylii with new ones. Kept one old but ok stylus as an emergency reserve. Have to say that despite what I had read prior to purchase, they have proved not to be as fragile as I expected.

:hatsoff2: - Kev

I bought new shure whitelabels, 165$ shipping included

might use this drill to have spare ones, if i'm pleased with how they perform.

thanks everybody!

:hatsoff2:

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Posted

yes. mistracking means the needle isn't riding correctly. It might be playing back fine while at the same time damaging the grooves.

Always thought lower tracking force meant less record wear regardless,you`ll live and learn I guess.I hope the key word is CAN cause damage to the grooves btw,hate the idea that I`ve damaged all my 45s while dj`ing;)

How much pressure do you reckon is enough on a needle with recommeded tracking force between 2-5g btw? At the lower or higher end?

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Posted

one more thing to add to clearvinyl's post above. if you're not sure about your turntable setup at home, and it might be mistracking, ellipticals will tear up your records when mistracking. so probably you should be sure about your turntable setup and calibration before using ellipticals. but when set up and calibrated correctly, ellipticals will reveal more detail in the sound.

How do you tell if the turntable is mistracking exactly?

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Posted

Always thought lower tracking force meant less record wear regardless,you`ll live and learn I guess.I hope the key word is CAN cause damage to the grooves btw,hate the idea that I`ve damaged all my 45s while dj`ing;)

How much pressure do you reckon is enough on a needle with recommeded tracking force between 2-5g btw? At the lower or higher end?

2-5? are you using a shure sc35? I would stay on the lower end of what is recommended, that is a needle that is probably meant for scratching, etc. so it allows for a higher tracking force, but for home play you definitely should stay on the lower end of the allowed force.

if a needle is mistracking it is riding unevenly against certain parts of the grooves instead of sitting where it should be. this will ultimately wear the record unevenly (e.g. you could get distortion in one channel) and if you have a good system and good ear you should be able to hear that it doesn't sound good.

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Posted

2-5? are you using a shure sc35? I would stay on the lower end of what is recommended, that is a needle that is probably meant for scratching, etc. so it allows for a higher tracking force, but for home play you definitely should stay on the lower end of the allowed force.

if a needle is mistracking it is riding unevenly against certain parts of the grooves instead of sitting where it should be. this will ultimately wear the record unevenly (e.g. you could get distortion in one channel) and if you have a good system and good ear you should be able to hear that it doesn't sound good.

Thanks for all the info!

I use an ortofon nightclub mkii cartridge with an elliptical tip.It has good sound quality,but in light of what I`ve read in this thread I`m thinking about changing to an cartidge/stylus with an conical tip - do you have any suggestions?

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Posted

Thanks for all the info!

I use an ortofon nightclub mkii cartridge with an elliptical tip.It has good sound quality,but in light of what I`ve read in this thread I`m thinking about changing to an cartidge/stylus with an conical tip - do you have any suggestions?

There's a few choices for S conicals (S for spherical tip) for the Ortofon concorde:

DJ (Blue plastic, orange "DJ" written on the top, bit tacky looking)

NIGHT CLUB (Bright Yellow plastic)

PRO (Silver with a red spot on the top)

PRO S (Black with red spot on top)

S seem more robust than the Es. But they all sound good and do the job. There are others: Scratch (Pink), and Digitrack (orange plastic, Qbert (white); havent used these - I imagine for specific use, and no doubt, others. You can get S or E stylus for DJs and yellow Night Clubs.

Basically, suck it and see what sounds good for you. I started on DJs, the Pros are the cheapest, Night Club the dearest.

When you get an S, you can compare it to your nightclub E. i.e. a battered soul 45 can actually could sound better with an S, because it's limited contact in the groove may miss undesirable noise that an E will detect. However... sometimes using an E is better with a worn record as the S may struggle to pick up mids and those desirable highs! I've played in pubs and found myself slipping on a white Arkiv E, just to milk as much high end from a battered Al Green 45 (on London) as physically possible...

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Posted

the qbert has to be for scratching -- it has to be a reference to dj qbert, one of the invisibl skratch piklz

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Posted

The concorde dj's are by far the best all rounders

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the qbert has to be for scratching -- it has to be a reference to dj qbert, one of the invisibl skratch piklz

No doubt you're right Bob!

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Posted

Thanks for good advise guys,will go to my supplier of dj equipment in January and see what he has to offer.Still not convinced that a conical tip will cause less wear than a elliptical one though.Seems to be different opinions on this subject everywhere I search,but the point about "... less pressure per square inch —hence less record wear..." seems logical to me.

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Posted

Hi All that are interested!

Has anybody purchased or used the new Ortofon CC S-120 cartridge & if so are they worth the extra over the DJ 120?

Reading the blurb below from Ortofon web site they sound like the muts nuts but is this just sales talk or not!

A revolutionary new high performance cart for DJs! Exceptional tracking ability of 120 μm!

The Ortofon-Serato S-120 represents a completely new way of constructing and designing cartridges. Its breakthrough patent pending technology has been designed to provide maximum freedom for DJ performance.

An innovative technology, called asymmetric suspension, takes the cartridge performance to the next level.

Its superior tracking force ensures the S-120 stays in the groove even under extreme live performance conditions.

In addition, its design achieves an unprecedentedly low level of record wear, which helps protect your valuable vinyl. On top of this, the S-120 is capable of providing a level of sound quality never thought possible from a modern DJ cartridge.

At £178.00 for a box containing two CC S-120's :-0

Steve J

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Posted

They all sound the same.

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Posted

From where I'm standing, there's little point in worrying about some of the finer points here if you're a DJ who goes out and plays his records in a talc/dust filled club!!

Look at your records when you get home. ......I have!!

Sandpapering on a micro-scale. ....but sandpapering all the same!!

Cheers,

Mark R

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Posted

They all sound the same.

Well Pete that's made it easier to decide if to buy or not! .........:-)..........it's just as important regards less wear on records for the guest DJ's that play on my decks, as the sound IMO

Steve J

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Posted

From where I'm standing, there's little point in worrying about some of the finer points here if you're a DJ who goes out and plays his records in a talc/dust filled club!!

Look at your records when you get home. ......I have!!

Sandpapering on a micro-scale. ....but sandpapering all the same!!

Cheers,

Mark R

I know what you mean Mark about Talc finding its way into every crevice! But talc is made up mainly of the elements magnesium not sand! if it was sand there would be no dance floors left in England!! ;-)

Steve J

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I know what you mean Mark about Talc finding its way into every crevice! But talc is made up mainly of the elements magnesium not sand! if it was sand there would be no dance floors left in England!! ;-)

Steve J

Yeah, I know what you mean Steve. ........but I didn't mean sandpaper in the literal sense.......and it's glasspaper anyway isn't it? LOL

Cheers,

Mark R

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Posted (edited)

I used the Shure White Labels for years, and found them superb. I changed the needles every second nighter. 

 

Before I bought them I wrote to all the manufacturers asking for advice on the best cart/stylus combination to use for 60's/70's 45's. Shure were the only ones who got back to me, and gave me lots of information.

 

For Djing, I think the White Labels are the best.

 

By the way, if you are going to use the Shure White Labels, you will need to have the extra tone arm weights that screw in to the back of the tone arm. Otherwise you will struggle to balance it. These are very heavy carts compared to the Stantons etc. I think that's why you can use them with very little weight and they don't jump. 

Edited by Quinvy

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