Loads of rare and collectable stuff on Ric-Tic but surely the rarest record on the label is the humble yet fabulous SAN REMO GOLDEN STRINGS - INTERNATIONAL LOVE THEME / QUANTO SEI BELLA (you are so beautiful) - RT 116 RED ISSUE. You see copies of the other rare stuff - Rose Batiste - Holding Hands, Edwin Starr - You`re My Mellow, Scotts on Swingers etc quite regularly but when do you see the aforementioned beauty? Not often methinks.

So what is it worth?

Since I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that I had a really nice copy of this there has been a lot of interest. What do the experts out here in soul source land think?

Frosty

id love a copy,to complete label,got demo there easy...would love to know value myself,song itself so so, its the rarety value with this one..ill give you £100....

already been offered £175 for it

I've got a mint red issue here, bought it in 70's. If anyone wants it pm me with offer. Best offer by 10.00pm today gets it. Thanks John.

I've got a mint red issue here, bought it in 70's. If anyone wants it pm me with offer. Best offer by 10.00pm today gets it. Thanks John.

Try Keith ( red coupe ) he's been lookin for a while now

I've got one too, don't think it's that rare just one of the harder ones on Ric Tic to pick up.

censored

Edited February 3, 201312 yr by midnight brew

double post edited

Edited February 3, 201312 yr by Dave Moore

I think you're not far off the mark there,it's a fine line between JJ Barnes and Rose Battiste Holding Hands white DJ.I have been after JJ Barnes for years,but when it does crop up its usually worse for wear. Chris .

Well I'll be blowed sold a demo of this one last year on ebay for peanuts.

Rose Batiste WDJ easily the toughest out of those two as far as my experience goes

I have had a few Please Let Me in WDJ's (maybe even still have a spare)

Not seen that many Rose Batiste's - have one but would like a minter

Richard

Rose Batiste WDJ easily the toughest out of those two as far as my experience goes

I have had a few Please Let Me in WDJ's (maybe even still have a spare)

Not seen that many Rose Batiste's - have one but would like a minter

Richard

Rose Batiste WDJ easily the toughest out of those two as far as my experience goes

I have had a few Please Let Me in WDJ's (maybe even still have a spare)

Not seen that many Rose Batiste's - have one but would like a minter

Richard

Rose Batiste WDJ easily the toughest out of those two as far as my experience goes

I have had a few Please Let Me in WDJ's (maybe even still have a spare)

Not seen that many Rose Batiste's - have one but would like a minter

Richard

Thinking about it Richard,your probably right.i can't remember the last time I saw a Rose Battiste White DJ up for sale. Chris.Ps if you do have a spare JJ Barnes and its in good shape would you pm me please Thanks.

I'd have thought Fantastic Four Can't Stop Looking For My Baby one of the rarer Ric-Tics demo's?

Certainly one of my all time fav's on that old label, what a choon.

Aid.

I have a Rose Batiste MINT WDJ. Took me 30 years to locate one in this condition. I've had one for the past 20 years but only upgraded this a few years ago when a dealer mate had one and got it touch..

JJ Barnes went for 60 quid a few days ago, although it was by no means mint. I've had a few of them but am still not on a Mint- copy.

If I had to choose one to keep it would be the Rose Batiste by a country mile. I suppose it's all about time, place and opportunity. I've still not got:

Al Kent - Way You been Acting Lately - Demo

or

Fantastic Four - Can't Stop Looking For my Baby - Demo

But I'd wager lots of other Ric Tic collectors have.

Regards,

Dave

Regards,

Dave

Got

I have a Rose Batiste MINT WDJ. Took me 30 years to locate one in this condition. I've had one for the past 20 years but only upgraded this a few years ago when a dealer mate had one and got it touch..

JJ Barnes went for 60 quid a few days ago, although it was by no means mint. I've had a few of them but am still not on a Mint- copy.

If I had to choose one to keep it would be the Rose Batiste by a country mile. I suppose it's all about time, place and opportunity. I've still not got:

Al Kent - Way You been Acting Lately - Demo

or

Fantastic Four - Can't Stop Looking For my Baby - Demo

But I'd wager lots of other Ric Tic collectors have.

Regards,

Dave

Regards,

Dave

I have a Rose Batiste MINT WDJ. Took me 30 years to locate one in this condition. I've had one for the past 20 years but only upgraded this a few years ago when a dealer mate had one and got it touch..

JJ Barnes went for 60 quid a few days ago, although it was by no means mint. I've had a few of them but am still not on a Mint- copy.

If I had to choose one to keep it would be the Rose Batiste by a country mile. I suppose it's all about time, place and opportunity. I've still not got:

Al Kent - Way You been Acting Lately - Demo

or

Fantastic Four - Can't Stop Looking For my Baby - Demo

But I'd wager lots of other Ric Tic collectors have.

Regards,

Dave

Regards,

Dave

Got Fantastic Four on demo as well as Edwin Starr Your my mellow,but Al Kent is another tough one that I have not managed to obtain. Chris.

For me this record has it all, Wingate & Kent, say no more.

Aid.

Got Fantastic Four on demo as well as Edwin Starr Your my mellow,but Al Kent is another tough one that I have not managed to obtain. Chris.

And there you go.... time, place and opportunity. These 45s are proper rare records. When you've been looking for this long and through the different 'ages' of collecting (written sales lists, record fairs, trips to US, internet age) and are still coming up short then you know they're hard to find. Don't need no 'bukreeding' to tell us eh?

Regards,

Dave

And there you go.... time, place and opportunity. These 45s are proper rare records. When you've been looking for this long and through the different 'ages' of collecting (written sales lists, record fairs, trips to US, internet age) and are still coming up short then you know they're hard to find. Don't need no 'bukreeding' to tell us eh?

Regards,

Dave

And there you go.... time, place and opportunity. These 45s are proper rare records. When you've been looking for this long and through the different 'ages' of collecting (written sales lists, record fairs, trips to US, internet age) and are still coming up short then you know they're hard to find. Don't need no 'bukreeding' to tell us eh?

Regards,

Dave

And there you go.... time, place and opportunity. These 45s are proper rare records. When you've been looking for this long and through the different 'ages' of collecting (written sales lists, record fairs, trips to US, internet age) and are still coming up short then you know they're hard to find. Don't need no 'bukreeding' to tell us eh?

Regards,

Dave

Bang on the button there Dave.Its very much right time and place. Chris.

You Learn Something Everyday.....I still "Know Nothing"

Respect wilxy

Just checked on popsike and in the last 6 years

Rose Batiste demos = 0 issues = 10

JJ Barnes demos = 2

Scotts on swingers = 3

Fantastic 4 demos = 0 issues = 29

Edwin Starr demos = 0 issues = 12

Al Kent demos = 1

San Remo issues = 1

So yes all of the aforementioned demos are extremely rare but when it comes to Issue copies the San Remo's RT116 rarely seems to come to market.

Frosty

Bang on the button there Dave.Its very much right time and place. Chris.

Bang on the button there Dave.Its very much right time and place. Chris.

You havent quite got the hang of this quoting business yet mate I cant help but notice

Just checked on popsike and in the last 6 years

Rose Batiste demos = 0 issues = 10

JJ Barnes demos = 2

Scotts on swingers = 3

Fantastic 4 demos = 0 issues = 29

Edwin Starr demos = 0 issues = 12

Al Kent demos = 1

San Remo issues = 1

So yes all of the aforementioned demos are extremely rare but when it comes to Issue copies the San Remo's RT116 rarely seems to come to market.

Frosty

It's a good job you mentioned this because I had no idea that San Remo thing was worth anything at all, I'd have listed it with the Real Humdinger's and Agent 00 Soul's, in fact I probably have done. Wonder why this one should be so rare?

Just checked on popsike and in the last 6 years

Rose Batiste demos = 0 issues = 10

JJ Barnes demos = 2

Scotts on swingers = 3

Fantastic 4 demos = 0 issues = 29

Edwin Starr demos = 0 issues = 12

Al Kent demos = 1

San Remo issues = 1

So yes all of the aforementioned demos are extremely rare but when it comes to Issue copies the San Remo's RT116 rarely seems to come to market.

Frosty

I don't think Poopsike can always be trusted as it doesn't really cover sales away from Ebay, i.e. on here, Tim Brown, Dave Raistrick, Soul Bowl & John Manship.

The hardest one for me to get was JJ PLMI w/d.

I don't think Poopsike can always be trusted as it doesn't really cover sales away from Ebay, i.e. on here, Tim Brown, Dave Raistrick, Soul Bowl & John Manship.

The hardest one for me to get was JJ PLMI w/d.

Spot on Tony, Popsike seems to cherry pick what it lists, I often look back to try and find stuff I've bought or sold and it's not there.

"cant stop looking for my baby " such a stirring tune , dance with eyes closed .

I don't think Poopsike can always be trusted as it doesn't really cover sales away from Ebay, i.e. on here, Tim Brown, Dave Raistrick, Soul Bowl & John Manship.

The hardest one for me to get was JJ PLMI w/d.

It's funny really because the aforementioned dealers are very astute and don't usually let a rare record slip through their fingers cheaply. They also may not value RT 116 too highly. But guess what, whilst they have had the demo of this going for between £10 and £20 and it is easy to pick up. They have not listed an issue of this in the last 10 years and only one has come up on Ebay in that time. Obviously any private sales are completely off the radar and I know Tim listed Issue copies a few years back but they were actually demos that he had. I know because I tried to buy them. Ask any completist who does not have this Issue and they will tell you that it is never seen these days. In terms of reasons for scarcity I think this would certainly be the worst selling of The San Remo's 45's and probably one of the lowest selling records on the label. By the time all the guys in the band got copies and gave some away to family and friends I guess the first pressing was just about taken care of and they probably didn't run a second lot. Who knows???

Frosty

By the time all the guys in the band got copies and gave some away to family and friends I guess the first pressing was just about taken care of and they probably didn't run a second lot. Who knows???

Frosty

Going by the quantity of other Ric Tics, there must be 20,000 of these in a warehouse somewhere lying undiscovered, I can't see Ric Tic doing short runs on anything except the first handful of releases. Even the two rarer later ones, Edwin Starr and Fantastic Four - there must be at least a thousand of these in the UK at any given time.

Going by the quantity of other Ric Tics, there must be 20,000 of these in a warehouse somewhere lying undiscovered,

Yes, I have heard of this warehouse, apparently it is situated on Atlantis right at the end of the rainbow. Lord Lucan works behind the counter and the biggest selling item they have is TONY TURNER (MY ROOM IS ONLY) SIX BY SIX - MUSICOR. I will pop in and have a look next time I am out in my Tardis.

Frosty

Going by the quantity of other Ric Tics, there must be 20,000 of these in a warehouse somewhere lying undiscovered,

Yes, I have heard of this warehouse, apparently it is situated on Atlantis right at the end of the rainbow. Lord Lucan works behind the counter and the biggest selling item they have is TONY TURNER (MY ROOM IS ONLY) SIX BY SIX - MUSICOR. I will pop in and have a look next time I am out in my Tardis.

Frosty

Oh right, so they only manufactured 20 copies of a Ric Tic record, gave them to band members and their families and destroyed every other copy on earth.

You theory sounds SO much better than mine.

Oh right, so they only manufactured 20 copies of a Ric Tic record, gave them to band members and their families and destroyed every other copy on earth.

You theory sounds SO much better than mine.

Hey Pete don't get so defensive, just chewing the fat here. You may be missing the point, I am not saying they only made 20 copies of this, very unlikely, but by the same logic it is unlikely that they knocked out 20,000 copies of this record against predicted future sales. Edwin Starr was the companies biggest selling artist so you would expect there to be 1000's of his 45's out there and likewise the Fantastic Four. Lets face it the SRGS records were a bit of an acquired taste and after the initial success of Hungry For Love the overall sales of the subsequent records (judging by chart positions) got smaller with each release. Also this one came out late 1966 and in early 1967 Motown after the acquisition of Ric Tic etc and through their Gordy imprint reissued Festival Time / Joy Road. It is possible there was no commercial push on this record at all by Ed Wingate and his team.

As for destroying any unsold stock I am old enough to remember the demise of the Chess records empire following the death of Leonard Chess and the subsequent sale of the company to GRT. The tragedy when their main offices and storage facility at 320 East Twenty First Street Chicago was sold to developers and the new owners sent in a crew to gut the place. They set about the whole unsold stock of over 250,000 records with chainsaws and chucked the lot into skips to be carted away to landfill. Heaven knows what was in there ???

Frosty

I must admit to not really knowing what is legit on the Ric Tic front. I recall being involved in a debate on soulfuldetroit a few years ago about Edwin Starr's `Agent 00 Soul` and its various permutations of label design. Back in the 70s when Ric Tic was hot, Martin Koppel said that only those with stamped ZTSC & numbers in the run out were originals. What I based my skepticism on was I don't know how a relatively small set up like Ric Tic could have coped with suddenly supplying huge demand on say the West coast, Texas, N,O, etc with discs pressed locally to Detroit. Surely to meet the instant demand in the regions they would get that 45 pressed in those areas? My only evidence here is that when I was asking the owner of Relic Records in NJ about Ric Tic 45s in the 60s, he said that they had difficulty obtaining New York 45s let alone Detroit.

I have noticed that until you get to the blue label my Ric Tics issues or demos aren't machine stamped ZTSC.Also my JJ Barnes demo obtained from America has a different type font to normal.I would also observe that Ric Tic must be one of the most collected of labels making perhaps only some truly rare!

Ric Tic ran a fairly tight ship. I think one reason for some of the white demo's not being so easy to find, is that they got them out the door. So there where never piles of them lying around when collectors and dealers started going through over stock in the 70's, most went out to DJ's, promo guys etc. The promo guy at Ric Tic was a legend in Detroit, James 'Casablanca' Stanford, he work like a trojan to get product out the door and get promo's into the hands of people that would work it.

He was a real nice guy, but a real hustler, everyone in the business in the mid west knew him. When Ric Tic closed it's doors he grabbed what was left of over stock, about 10,000 45 across all the titles. He had these at his home for many years, and was happy for collectors to rifle through them. When I went through them I asked him where are all the demos, he said 'there weren't many, as we got them out the door'. Casablanca passed away in 2005.

Edited January 31, 201312 yr by Dave Thorley

Dave, is it possible that Ed Wingate had sufficient money to press his records in generous quantities, this would account for the huge number that flooded the UK in mint condition pro rata to those obviously used. Martin certainly accessed them by the thousand as you did. It might also address my earlier point about Ric Tic, ZTSC stamped, styrene, discs in other states - he simply had the cash to air freight them.

Dave, is it possible that Ed Wingate had sufficient money to press his records in generous quantities, this would account for the huge number that flooded the UK in mint condition pro rata to those obviously used. Martin certainly accessed them by the thousand as you did. It might also address my earlier point about Ric Tic, ZTSC stamped, styrene, discs in other states - he simply had the cash to air freight them.

Ed would do an initial run, which was always fairly large, then re-press based on demand. Generally Detroit label bosses were hooked up around the country, because of great promo guys like Casablanca, Ernest Kelly etc, so would often do local pressing deals if a record took off in different parts of the country, as Ric Tic did. As for Ed Wingate, he always had great cash flow, as he ran the major part of 'The Numbers' business on the West Side of Detroit, so cash was never a problem.

Clearly why there was lots of over stock in the 70's was not that they sold badly, but the reverse. They sold so well that they kept on doing re-pressing runs, on the last run demand would slow and they would be left with the odd 5-8 thousand left. But by comparison with the number they sold, this would have been small fry. Plus they were happy to keep over stock as labels, like Ric Tic would have a good secondary market, selling to Jukebox operators and cut out sellers, that would buy wholesale and bundle up in packs of 10 & 20 to sell in petrol stations, hardware store and variety stores.

Edited January 31, 201312 yr by Dave Thorley

Do you think there was any truth in the rumor that when Ed sold his catalogue to Gordy on the second deal that he retained the Ric Tic name and contemplated revamping it with James Epps in the early 70s?

Do you think there was any truth in the rumor that when Ed sold his catalogue to Gordy on the second deal that he retained the Ric Tic name and contemplated revamping it with James Epps in the early 70s?

Really don't know, but next time I'm over there I'll ask. Trouble is the number of people that were around back then, deminishes ever year.

i've asked this question before no answers ,the rumour i heard back in the day was that when gordy aquired ric-tic the guys @ ric tic dumped them all over detroit, landfill ,maybe proping up freeways ,who knows maybe a pile of sh--.

i've asked this question before no answers ,the rumour i heard back in the day was that when gordy aquired ric-tic the guys @ ric tic dumped them all over detroit, landfill ,maybe proping up freeways ,who knows maybe a pile of sh--.

As I said in an earlier post

'When Ric Tic closed it's doors he grabbed what was left of over stock, about 10,000 45 across all the titles.'

He being James 'Casablanca' Sanford. These stories always get embellished with time, as well as what James had I'm sure there would have been stock sitting in some of the Detroit distributor such a Merit, for sometime after they closed.

Bob Foster went to Coachman's with Martin K around '75 and reported lots of boxes of them there.

Didn't Tats and Rob W land a big haul of unopened boxes of Ric-Tic/GW stuff too?

Regards,

Dave

Bob Foster went to Coachman's with Martin K around '75 and reported lots of boxes of them there.

From what I was told, when they knew they were closing, they sold stock off cheap to all the record stores around the town, so Coachman's, Miss White's, Detroit Audio, Lenny's One Stop etc would all have taken them into stock

If I could just find the keys to my tardis .......maybe give Levine a call he's well up on that time travel lark

Frosty

I recall a few folk commenting on this one, #108, as being a fairly tough WD to acquire as well...true or false

The rarest is always the one you can't find

The rarest is always the one you can't find

Tell me about it...wouldn't mind a demo #123...would be nice to add it to these in the picture

Tell me about it...wouldn't mind a demo #123...would be nice to add it to these in the picture

I know when I was collecting certain labels I often found what was the supposed toughest first and the easiest last Guess most have a similar story.