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RICK SCOTT

If the term northern soul had not come about ?

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On 4/18/2018 at 12:25, MBarrett said:

A few local newspapers are starting to become available on line.

It's only a few so this is far from scientific - but this is the first mention I could find of the term "Northern Soul." Coventry Evening Telegraph. August 1974

If it was used in an advert like this it must have been a recognisable and understood term for a while prior to then.

P.S. Ironical that a Coventry newspaper couldn't spell Coventry! :)

NS.jpg

I come from just owtside ov Covenry and I arm pleezed to comfirn that the standardz of speeling hev dramatikaly improoved sinse the 1970s.

The conprehensive skool sistem never did me no haarm.

Northen Sole rools!

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Just as a small illustration of how the music played changed from the 60's to the 70's ... a photo taken in the Mojo Club Sheffield in the mid 60's ... only one record can be seen BUT I BET you wouldn't have caught it in a pic taken at the Casino ... the ratio of girls to boys also seems quite different ..

MojoCrowdPic.jpg

Edited by Roburt

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Roburt said:

Just as a small illustration of how the music played changed from the 60's to the 70's ... a photo taken in the Mojo Club Sheffield in the mid 60's ... only one record can be seen BUT I BET you wouldn't have caught it in a pic taken at the Casino ... the ratio of girls to boys also seems quite different ..

MojoCrowdPic.jpg

Not just a change in the music, but also the fashions. Can you imagine being on the floor in the main room at the Casino in the summer of 74, dancing in a bloody suit!!!!!!!! Five minutes of Afternoon of the Rhino and the Detroit Land Apples, and there'd be nowt left of you other than a messy puddle. 

Edited by Joey

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It wouldn't have mattered if the term Northern Soul hadn't come about .Soul music, and RNB, and Motown music were bigger than any label you could give it, The term NS is just acting as a umbrella in most cases for the diversity at the time for dance floor soul, There was in fact as a result of the NS umbrella something for nearly everybody who liked soul music in one form or another, wether you were a lightweight or heavyweight on the scene, Some people stayed lightweight some became heavyweight SOULIES and some were heavyweight right from the start

ML

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1 hour ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

UTJ (Before our time but my sister was a reg, 15 years older than me) was never billed as soul or indeed Northern soul and was simply billed as a Discoteque. 

UTJ000.jpg

UTJflyer.jpg

Absolutely correct. The Junction was just a regular club/disco. Even when the 'Niters started, it was only known as a soul "do", not "Northern". As an aside, biggest sound I can remember there at the time? Archie Bell, "Here I go again". (Others may disagree!!!!!).

 

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On ‎26‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 13:44, Joey said:

Absolutely correct. The Junction was just a regular club/disco. Even when the 'Niters started, it was only known as a soul "do", not "Northern". As an aside, biggest sound I can remember there at the time? Archie Bell, "Here I go again". (Others may disagree!!!!!).

 

Joey if you can furnish me with any UTJ sounds I'd appreciate it as trying to put a CD together for my sis without asking her. Are you Joey Hartley by any chance?

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Joey if you can furnish me with any UTJ sounds I'd appreciate it as trying to put a CD together for my sis without asking her. Are you Joey Hartley by any chance?

 

Not Joey Hartley I'm afraid. Joey Haughton from Oldham.

only went to UTJ a couple of times. Long way for a kid to travel back then! I think I must have been fourteen or fifteen. My regular time on the 'Niter scene really started in late 72- early 73, when I finally began to have a few quid in my pocket to travel further afield than Manchester. As for the sounds, most of what I remember can best be described as latter-day wheel tunes. Plus, some of the Mirwood stuff that was being discovered/played, and some of the earlier Torch/Mecca sounds. The two that really stand out for me, were the Archie Bell number, and Bobby Hebb, Love, Love, Love. If memory serves me right, Robert Knight Love on a mountain top was getting plenty of plays back then also. This was all about the same time as I visited the Orbit in Rhyl a few times, so you can probably add Joy Lovejoy and the Prophets/Creation to the mix as I remember both being played to death about then. I'm sure there are one or two on here who went there regularly though, and could help much more than me. Matchy perhaps, if he's a member?

Edited by Joey

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On 26/04/2018 at 09:53, Joey said:

Not just a change in the music, but also the fashions. Can you imagine being on the floor in the main room at the Casino in the summer of 74, dancing in a bloody suit!!!!!!!! Five minutes of Afternoon of the Rhino and the Detroit Land Apples, and there'd be nowt left of you other than a messy puddle. 

Back in the 60's it was still 100% mod clothes ... both for the girls & lads. For us it was always mohair (or hopsack) suits, ben sherman shirts, brogues and leather / suede coats (left in the cloak room of course). The way you looked & knowing the latest dance moves was by far the most important thing -- otherwise you weren't considered to be one of the in-crowd. I collected records back then but most didn't (why would you when every mod club had a full set of new UK soul 45's). Having a great collection only came into play at private parties, not on club nights. ANOTHER MAIN DIFFERENCE ... we only travelled miles to a niter if a good live act was on (mainly US artists with a select few UK acts also registering).   

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11 minutes ago, Roburt said:

Back in the 60's it was still 100% mod clothes ... both for the girls & lads. For us it was always mohair (or hopsack) suits, ben sherman shirts, brogues and leather / suede coats (left in the cloak room of course). The way you looked & knowing the latest dance moves was by far the most important thing -- otherwise you weren't considered to be one of the in-crowd. I collected records back then but most didn't (why would you when every mod club had a full set of new UK soul 45's). Having a great collection only came into play at private parties, not on club nights. ANOTHER MAIN DIFFERENCE ... we only travelled miles to a niter if a good live act was on (mainly US artists with a select few UK acts also registering).   

We were lucky  we had Geno Washington and his ram jam band virtually resident at our weekly niter in Wigan along with one or two good RNB local bands at the time this was a very dark atmospheric club with sweat dripping down the walls with 250 people in a space for at the most 100 top of a building no fire escape no Health and Safety them days 1965 to 68  The Room at The Top

PS didn't matter how good your clothes were 30 minutes in that room you and your clothes looked like you'd just come out of wet wringer so you all looked the same LoL,

Great memories

ML

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27 minutes ago, Roburt said:

Back in the 60's it was still 100% mod clothes ... both for the girls & lads. For us it was always mohair (or hopsack) suits, ben sherman shirts, brogues and leather / suede coats (left in the cloak room of course). The way you looked & knowing the latest dance moves was by far the most important thing -- otherwise you weren't considered to be one of the in-crowd. I collected records back then but most didn't (why would you when every mod club had a full set of new UK soul 45's). Having a great collection only came into play at private parties, not on club nights. ANOTHER MAIN DIFFERENCE ... we only travelled miles to a niter if a good live act was on (mainly US artists with a select few UK acts also registering).   

My main club of choice in the early 70's was Manchesters Pendulum. Dress was far smarter there than at any of the niters. (Same went for the Mecca. Always expected to dress well). Temp was much lower, even when the club was rammed. I swear that the Casino, in the summer of 74, was the hottest place I ever encountered. Like a sodding sauna, in the Sahara, with a volcano. Factor in the copious amounts of speed, and the 100mph plus  instrumentals, and no way could you even begin to think about wearing anything remotely respectable. 

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12 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

We were lucky  we had Geno Washington and his ram jam band virtually resident at our weekly niter in Wigan along with one or two good RNB local bands at the time this was a very dark atmospheric club with sweat dripping down the walls with 250 people in a space for at the most 100 top of a building no fire escape no Health and Safety them days 1965 to 68  The Room at The Top

PS didn't matter how good your clothes were 30 minutes in that room you and your clothes looked like you'd just come out of wet wringer so you all looked the same LoL,

Great memories

ML

Heard many story's of the legendary Room at the Top from one of the guys who brought me into the scene proper, Kev Kerley from Oldham. Wish I'd been old enough to experience the place for myself. 

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12 minutes ago, Joey said:

My main club of choice in the early 70's was Manchesters Pendulum. Dress was far smarter there than at any of the niters. (Same went for the Mecca. Always expected to dress well). Temp was much lower, even when the club was rammed. I swear that the Casino, in the summer of 74, was the hottest place I ever encountered. Like a sodding sauna, in the Sahara, with a volcano. Factor in the copious amounts of speed, and the 100mph plus  instrumentals, and no way could you even begin to think about wearing anything remotely respectable. 

With regard to the Casino, I totally agree Johnny regarding the temperature. I think it's the only club I ever wore a neckerchief, it did stop the perspiration going down your neck and I wore skinner jeans as lots did and if I went upstairs to mr m's I had to lift them at the knees otherwise they used to stick to my legs.Lol Regards Fred. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Mr Fred said:

With regard to the Casino, I totally agree Johnny regarding the temperature. I think it's the only club I ever wore a neckerchief, it did stop the perspiration going down your neck and I wore skinner jeans as lots did and if I went upstairs to mr m's I had to lift them at the knees otherwise they used to stick to my legs.Lol Regards Fred. 

Hiya Fred. Hope you're well. Yeah, I also wore a neckerchief. Usually wet through within five bloody minutes of being in the place. My jeans were also Skinners. You can see them in one of those pics I posted. Heavily modified though. They used to get so wet through that I suffered badly from leg cramps anytime after 6am, due to wearing sodden jeans all night, coupled with the loss of moisture/fluids. Happy, but daft, days!

Edited by Joey

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On 17 April 2018 at 20:54, wiggyflat said:

I have this it is from the R&B scene mag from 64/65 but It was really describing a live band scene....Harlem Johns Reshuffle were using it to describe the records that we recognise as the Northern Soul Scene. They were covering  Looking For A fox(Clarence Carter)/My Elusive Dreams (Moses and Joshua Dillard)/Open The Door To Your Heart (Darrell Banks)/ You Are The One I Love (Adams Apples).Let Love Come Between Us (James And Bobby ), Come Back Girl (Jackie Edwards)/Down In The Valley etc.....

If they were covering those records the article was absolutely not from 64/65.

Dx

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Posted (edited)

Dave  N Pete you are getting mixed up. The St Louis Union advert is from 64/65 and was describing the northern band scene ie a scene revolving around live bands covering soul music. The Harlem Johns use of the term was later in 69 and described the type of music they were playing and it was the type of music we now know as Northern soul.....That Driving Beat/You Are The One I Love (Adams Apples) etc ...all of their tracks are cover versions and fast and brassy. They were managed by the L.E Agency in Wigan 

Edited by wiggyflat

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23 hours ago, Joey said:

 Dress was far smarter there than at any of the niters

A very simple reason why your best Mohair was not worn at all-niters.

Down the Wheel, there were lots of folks spinning around. And a fair number of them would do it with a fag in their hand. 

In a club that rammed, a swipe across your back with a burning ciggie was a common occurrence. Denim had a good chance of withstanding that. Mohair stood much less chance. And denim was cheaper to replace. My Burtons Tailors weekly account could only stand so much!

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23 hours ago, Hooker1951 said:

We were lucky  we had Geno Washington and his ram jam band virtually resident at our weekly niter in Wigan along with one or two good RNB local bands at the time this was a very dark atmospheric club with sweat dripping down the walls with 250 people in a space for at the most 100 top of a building no fire escape no Health and Safety them days 1965 to 68  The Room at The Top

PS didn't matter how good your clothes were 30 minutes in that room you and your clothes looked like you'd just come out of wet wringer so you all looked the same LoL,

Great memories

ML

At the Mojo in Sheffield (65/66/67), we got a live US act almost every Saturday niter, Sunday night was for UK based soul / R&B / mod acts. Geno Washington & RJB were elevated to being a Saturday niter act as they put on such a dynamic show. Even though Sheffield wasn't the centre of the universe for most UK based groups / singers (most operating out of the London area), quite a few acts who were touring would do a northern gig and then some members would head for the Mojo niter to unwind / come down. In fact this weekend BBC4 has been screening a documentary about Jeff Beck. Ronnie Woods (now a Stone but then in the Birds), told a story about being at the Mojo and chatting about starting a new band with Jeff Beck. Beck soon started a US tour with the Yardbirds (on a package that also included Gary Lewis & the Playboys, Bobby Hebb & more). He immediately got so fed up, that he quit the tour / group after just 2 shows and returned to the UK. One quiet night he was in the Crowmwellian & Rod Stewart was sat in the corner. They got talking & realised both were out of work, Rod told Beck that Ronnie Woods was also out of work. Days later, the Jeff Beck Group was formed and they were soon cutting their TRUTH LP (cut in 67, released early in 68).   

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3 minutes ago, soash said:

A very simple reason why your best Mohair was not worn at all-niters.

Down the Wheel, there were lots of folks spinning around. And a fair number of them would do it with a fag in their hand. 

In a club that rammed, a swipe across your back with a burning ciggie was a common occurrence. Denim had a good chance of withstanding that. Mohair stood much less chance. And denim was cheaper to replace. My Burtons Tailors weekly account could only stand so much!

After the Mojo niters were stopped, we defaulted to the Nite Owl in Leicester. But by mid October 67, we were attending the Wheel. In the early months, we'd wear our suits when we went to the nters there. But soon it became Levi's & Shermans for the niters. Don't remember guys spinning with fags in mouths / hands though (biggest risk there was getting rolled before you got into the place).

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Roburt said:

At the Mojo in Sheffield (65/66/67), we got a live US act almost every Saturday niter, Sunday night was for UK based soul / R&B / mod acts. Geno Washington & RJB were elevated to being a Saturday niter act as they put on such a dynamic show. Even though Sheffield wasn't the centre of the universe for most UK based groups / singers (most operating out of the London area), quite a few acts who were touring would do a northern gig and then some members would head for the Mojo niter to unwind / come down. In fact this weekend BBC4 has been screening a documentary about Jeff Beck. Ronnie Woods (now a Stone but then in the Birds), told a story about being at the Mojo and chatting about starting a new band with Jeff Beck. Beck soon started a US tour with the Yardbirds (on a package that also included Gary Lewis & the Playboys, Bobby Hebb & more). He immediately got so fed up, that he quit the tour / group after just 2 shows and returned to the UK. One quiet night he was in the Crowmwellian & Rod Stewart was sat in the corner. They got talking & realised both were out of work, Rod told Beck that Ronnie Woods was also out of work. Days later, the Jeff Beck Group was formed and they were soon cutting their TRUTH LP (cut in 67, released early in 68).   

Yeah, I saw the Jeff Beck/Mojo thing. The soul clubs up north* certainly played their part in the growing rock scene in the 60's, what with Cream playing their first gig at the Wheel.

I remember those weekends at the Mojo, too. Happy days!(and nights) 😀

*note: I could've said "northern soul clubs", but that was not what I meant🙄

Edited by soash

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41 minutes ago, soash said:

snip: <Cream playing their first gig at the Wheel. >

 

 

Wow that is the sort of priceless trivia I crave! Must've been cramped though, even if they had no crowd as such. Bet you could smell the dust burning off the Valves in the amps all over the club! Cool as hell bit of Rock history, thanks!

See, there is more to this place than miserable old geezers banging on about OVO soul!

I keep telling folks but they don't believe it! 🙄

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Posted (edited)

Wow, this has turned into a really interesting and informative thread.  Thanks to Joey and all the others who have shared their memories, which I have really enjoyed reading so much.

It certainly proves to me beyond any doubt that oversimplified historic articles in black music publications written by ill-informed journalists claiming to be able to account for northern soul's "year zero" should be treated as the opinions of people on the outside looking in.  Maybe these days we need to be reminded that it wasn't promoters, record dealers, collectors, or even DJs who were at the forefront of the development of the scene in the early days....it was the dancers?

Edited by woolie mark

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The Wheel was quite special coz after 1967, lots of clubs (even up north) moved with the times ... as some old fave live acts changed their musical style -- Small Faces, Alan Bown Set, Zoot Money (joined Dantalians Chariot), Jimmy Cliff (went reggae), Chris Farlowe (joined Colosseum, Atomic Rooster) -- followed along with the new sounds and started to leave soul behind ... the Wheel never did that.

The Mojo was gone by September 67 but in it's last few months it was booking acts that had been doing soul covers but were now beginning to go more rocky, poppy ... Jimmy Hendrix, Amen Corner, Procol Harum ... the 'summer of love' was even being reflected in some tracks being played ... Dion's "My Girl (the Month of May)" for instance. So I guess (& it would have devastated me), if the Mojo had carried on, it would have moved with the times and played less soul.   

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14 minutes ago, Roburt said:

The Wheel was quite special coz after 1967, lots of clubs (even up north) moved with the times ... as some old fave live acts changed their musical style -- Small Faces, Alan Bown Set, Zoot Money (joined Dantalians Chariot), Jimmy Cliff (went reggae), Chris Farlowe (joined Colosseum, Atomic Rooster) -- followed along with the new sounds and started to leave soul behind ... the Wheel never did that.

The Mojo was gone by September 67 but in it's last few months it was booking acts that had been doing soul covers but were now beginning to go more rocky, poppy ... Jimmy Hendrix, Amen Corner, Procol Harum ... the 'summer of love' was even being reflected in some tracks being played ... Dion's "My Girl (the Month of May)" for instance. So I guess (& it would have devastated me), if the Mojo had carried on, it would have moved with the times and played less soul.   

Isn't Stringfellow on record somewhere speaking about what happened when he tried to turn the Mojo music policy on its head? Seem to recall an interview he did, when he spoke about having bottles thrown at him or something. I suppose its to be expected, if you were to face a hardened soul audience wearing a f***ing kaftan, and playing psychedelic sh*te!!!! I mean, who in Sheffield back then would want to go to San Francisco and wear bloody flowers in their hair? Wouldn't look very good with a mohair suit, would it? Lol.  🙂

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2 hours ago, Joey said:

Isn't Stringfellow on record somewhere speaking about what happened when he tried to turn the Mojo music policy on its head? Seem to recall an interview he did, when he spoke about having bottles thrown at him or something. I suppose its to be expected, if you were to face a hardened soul audience wearing a f***ing kaftan, and playing psychedelic sh*te!!!! I mean, who in Sheffield back then would want to go to San Francisco and wear bloody flowers in their hair? Wouldn't look very good with a mohair suit, would it? Lol.  🙂

I'm not from Sheffield but have always wanted to go to San Fran in the late 60s and join the beatniks! Nothing to do with soul music but the UK 60's group Flowerpot Men summed it up 'Let's go to San Francisco'...

Sheffield vs San Fran? Have to say that's a hard one to call? :hypo:

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1 minute ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

I'm not from Sheffield but have always wanted to go to San Fran in the late 60s and join the beatniks! Nothing to do with soul music but the UK 60's group Flowerpot Men summed it up 'Let's go to San Francisco'...

Sheffield vs San Fran? Have to say that's a hard one to call? :hypo:

Not for me I'm afraid. Wrong "sort' of drugs being done!!!!!!!!!! The only Lsd I ever liked was the stuff that jingled in my pockets. 🙂 

Flowerpot Men? Wasn't that Bill and Ben? Or am I just showing my age? Lol. 

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Just now, Joey said:

Not for me I'm afraid. Wrong "sort' of drugs being done!!!!!!!!!! The only Lsd I ever liked was the stuff that jingled in my pockets. 🙂 

Flowerpot Men? Wasn't that Bill and Ben? Or am I just showing my age? Lol. 

LoL no The Flowerpot Men were a British sixties recording construct, they also wrote the music for The Ivy League the lead singer Tony Burrows was also involved with 'Love grows where my Rosemary goes' along with a couple of mates of mine Edison Lighthouse.

 

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1 minute ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

LoL no The Flowerpot Men were a British sixties recording construct, they also wrote the music for The Ivy League the lead singer Tony Burrows was also involved with 'Love grows where my Rosemary goes' along with a couple of mates of mine Edison Lighthouse.

 

I was merely joshing. Yeah, I remember the Flowerpot men well, and the Ivy League. I lived in LA for eighteen months back in and around 69, and that Edison Lighthouse tune was EVERYWHERE!  I couldn't get it out of my head for years and bloody years. 

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11 minutes ago, Joey said:

I was merely joshing. Yeah, I remember the Flowerpot men well, and the Ivy League. I lived in LA for eighteen months back in and around 69, and that Edison Lighthouse tune was EVERYWHERE!  I couldn't get it out of my head for years and bloody years. 

They perform locally (Cornwall) as a duo on the same circuit as my Cabaret band, they still perform 'Rosemary' and it is absolutely wonderful!

You lived in LA? Bah, fallen out with you now! :wink:

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1 minute ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

They perform locally (Cornwall) as a duo on the same circuit as my Cabaret band, they still perform 'Rosemary' and it is absolutely wonderful!

You lived in LA? Bah, fallen out with you now! :wink:

"Rosemary" was a top quality pop record. Gotta give credit where due. 

LA was "boss" back then dude! Especially for a very young teenager. The contrast between 1969 LA and 1969 Oldham just cannot be described. Wouldn't want to live anywhere near Hawthorne or Torrance today though! 

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Posted (edited)

I remember that last summer at the Mojo in 67. 

All hanging out in the sunshine waiting for the "all-dayers" to start. Used to hang out in that little park across the road, too.

I went once wearing my full length red leather, but Dinky Dawson trumped me - he had a yellow one!

Beatles "All You Need Is Love" got a few Mojo plays.......🙄

Edited by soash

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Roburt said:

1 So I guess (& it would have devastated me), if the Mojo had carried on, it would have moved with the times and played less soul.   

When the Mojo closed, Pete Stringfellow set up as a mobile DJ.

I had the pleasure of DJing with him when he did a night at the Place in Wakefield (late 67).

He did some great all-niters at the Tin Chicken in Castleford (early 68).

The first one featured "The Isley Brothers" - three skinny blokes who looked nothing like the Isleys (got chatting to them, and it turned out they were Sam. Erv and Tom).

So, rather than "move on" and play UK pop, Stringy continued playing 100% Soul.

Interestingly , and cogent to this thread, he didn't call it "northern soul".

Look at the bottom of the poster:

 

 

 

tinchicken.jpg

Edited by soash

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For the umpteenth time, Neil Rushston's book has Paul Clifford saying that his dad, Cliff Clifford " had a brainwave" and marked the boxes " Northern Soul" 

I.e. it was NOT Godin  who invented the term.

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2 hours ago, snakepit said:

For the umpteenth time, Neil Rushston's book has Paul Clifford saying that his dad, Cliff Clifford " had a brainwave" and marked the boxes " Northern Soul" 

I.e. it was NOT Godin  who invented the term.

Hi Larry.

How are you doing, mate?

To me, the thread seems to have moved on from who coined the phrase, to how soon the phrase was used.

Dave Godin, bless him, was a relentless self promoter, so I can quite understand how he would stake his claim to the invention of the name, just like he claimed to have put two of Berry Gordy's label names together, and come up with "Tamla Motown".

On the other hand, I don't believe half of what I read in books by "experts" on what did and did not happen all those years ago.

I guess we will never know.

But the poster in my previous post supports what I believe - i.e: the phrase was not used as a descriptive term for our music in its first heyday, 1965-69.

But again, all these years later, we will never know 🙄

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Hello Soshe,

I'm well my friend and hope you and everyone as CSC are okeh. Still the best Soul site for great music.

I agree that we will probably never know. But I refer to this claim by Paul Clifford as an attempt to counter lazy assumptions , the type of which we see in the media so often. I'm not really bothered who at Soul City coined the phrase, and as I have mentioned before, the glory or shame of using Northern Soul to describe " Our Thing" should probably go to the first promoter who advertised a night as such.

All the best

Larry

 

 

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