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News: BBC - Fake Britain - Vinyl Bootlegs - 28 Nov 2019

Posted
News/Article/Feature Highlight:

Just been passed on some mainstream media news from long time member Kevin Johansen @wiggyflat that tomorrows BBC Fake Britain show features a segment that take a look at 'the vinyl copies that are fleecing record collectors out of thousands'.

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Posted

Any ideas for watching this outside of the UK? 

"BBC iPlayer only works in the UK. Sorry, it’s due to rights issues."

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Agent45 said:

Any ideas for watching this outside of the UK? 

"BBC iPlayer only works in the UK. Sorry, it’s due to rights issues."

And about time me thinks. I just hope a lot of people will be losing a bit of sleep afterwards, at least for a while, as I fear that as with most of these things......nothing will actually happen in the long run...I do wonder if some of the dealers will be leaving certain boxes at home when they attend Soul Bars at events

Edited by Blackpoolsoul
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Posted

looking forward to this one

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Posted
3 hours ago, Mike said:

News/Article/Feature Highlight:

Just been passed on some mainstream media news from long time member Kevin Johansen @wiggyflat that tomorrows BBC Fake Britain show features a segment that take a look at 'the vinyl copies that are fleecing record collectors out of thousands'.

View full article

 

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Posted (edited)

Just watched it and it started with the Pink Floyd bootleg

However the guy who was being interviewed said that he expected the track list to be on the back of the cover ????

https://www.discogs.com/Pink-Floyd-Wish-You-Were-Here-炎-あなたがここにいてほしい/release/13846677

As fare as I was aware tracks were on the Inner sleeve and of course his was plain white anyway £45 ?

Oh Dear and he quoted "there was nothing I could do", did he use Paypal ?

Also his copy of Dark Side Of The Moon he played was a re-press !!!

As for the bootlegs Northern Soul and the "worthless" comments, there are some bootleg collectors who don't mind , do they ? (not me I hate them)

The Authorities need to threaten Ebay and Amazon with fines and then that will stop it....surely

The bootlegs are always being sold as Re-issues (a simple way of getting round it)

The Cobblestone in Orange ??? please, please at least it is the wrong colour, never mind missing the B side

When I was a young man, I bought one of Simon Soussan's Jimmy's

soul Jimmy

soul Cobblestone

Marks out of 10 for info 5/10 accuracy 5/10 

Edited by Blackpoolsoul
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Posted

Major point there that wasn't mentioned on fake Britain - the bootleg industry is being maintained by DJs who don't care. They are cheap means to achieve an arguably false status, and they play to an audience who don't care either. Many boots and recent represses are clearly described as such. It doesn't reduce their sales any. That, of course, is different from those who deliberately mis-sell. That is fraud.

 

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Posted

You can view a clip - the vinyl bootlegging section here on our soul source yt thing

 

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Posted
37 minutes ago, John Moffatt said:

Major point there that wasn't mentioned on fake Britain - the bootleg industry is being maintained by DJs who don't care. They are cheap means to achieve an arguably false status, and they play to an audience who don't care either. Many boots and recent represses are clearly described as such. It doesn't reduce their sales any. That, of course, is different from those who deliberately mis-sell. That is fraud.

 

Sadly no one can name them "For legal Reasons" and they will just Carry on

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Posted
37 minutes ago, John Moffatt said:

Major point there that wasn't mentioned on fake Britain - the bootleg industry is being maintained by DJs who don't care. They are cheap means to achieve an arguably false status, and they play to an audience who don't care either. Many boots and recent represses are clearly described as such. It doesn't reduce their sales any. That, of course, is different from those who deliberately mis-sell. That is fraud.

 

Add to that when you have Promoters who also DJ and collect them selves allow DJs ( i use that term losely) To play mostly Bootlegs in their sets, i pulled one up on this and his response was he didn't care less as long as the punters got to hear what they wanted as he was only interested on Filling the Dance Floor.

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Posted

Rick Scott spot on.....I was promoting nights in Southend with James Hill under Northern Noise banner.We were booking djs with real records but he has gone off on his own and booked dj mates playing bootlegs using Northern Noise ....it is funny I have appeared on tv about bootlegging and he is running bootleg dj promotions!.

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Posted

Boy, do I miss the 1980s and 1990s when the playing of originals at soul nights was assumed and the acronym OVO wasn't even a consideration for printing on your event flyer.

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Posted
53 minutes ago, Rick Scott said:

Add to that when you have Promoters who also DJ and collect them selves allow DJs ( i use that term losely) To play mostly Bootlegs in their sets, i pulled one up on this and his response was he didn't care less as long as the punters got to hear what they wanted as he was only interested on Filling the Dance Floor.

For the dance floor, substitute  his pockets-works either way

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Posted
50 minutes ago, Rick Scott said:

Add to that when you have Promoters who also DJ and collect them selves allow DJs ( i use that term losely) To play mostly Bootlegs in their sets, i pulled one up on this and his response was he didn't care less as long as the punters got to hear what they wanted as he was only interested on Filling the Dance Floor.

'Only interested in filling the dancefloor' - another feature that is damaging the scene whereby you hear the same old records at every event you go to. There was once a time when DJs did the DJing, not dictat from the dancers. So these guys not only pay nothing for their adulation, they play what they are told to play. So why not just install a jukebox and not bother with any knowledge, experience and dedication?

 

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Posted

Whole programme very depressing, the amount of scumbags out there....hardly news, I know.

Also, must be first time ever a Paul Kelly record - even if fake - has been seen on the BBC....

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Posted
1 hour ago, Johndelve said:

 

Also, must be first time ever a Paul Kelly record - even if fake - has been seen on the BBC....

And probably the last! 🙂 

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Posted
4 hours ago, John Moffatt said:

Major point there that wasn't mentioned on fake Britain - the bootleg industry is being maintained by DJs who don't care. They are cheap means to achieve an arguably false status, and they play to an audience who don't care either. Many boots and recent represses are clearly described as such. It doesn't reduce their sales any. That, of course, is different from those who deliberately mis-sell. That is fraud.

 

I have asked several times who these djs are, think I got two names for a venue in west midlands.  I have even asked for their names via PM if people do not wish to say anything and I will give their names out publicly, again nothing.  
 

Until they are named and shamed we will never get anywhere and the market will always flourish  

its not just Djs supporting these bootleggers, plenty of collectors too.

Ebay is rife with them, takes forever to sort the crap from the real stuff. 

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Posted

And there is absolutely no need to book a fake Dj for any promotion.  More than enough who have real records and more than enough who will do it for nowt 🙄😜 

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Chalky said:

I have asked several times who these djs are, think I got two names for a venue in west midlands.  I have even asked for their names via PM if people do not wish to say anything and I will give their names out publicly, again nothing.  
 

Until they are named and shamed we will never get anywhere and the market will always flourish  

its not just Djs supporting these bootleggers, plenty of collectors too.

Ebay is rife with them, takes forever to sort the crap from the real stuff. 

It is so strange that Simon Soussan is the only name mentioned and he was bootlegging when......30+ years ago, perhaps these people will be named in 30 years when we have all gone to bed

Edited by Blackpoolsoul

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Posted

Given the technology available nowadays how long before it won't be possible to tell the difference between original and fake?If they can copy the Mona Lisa they can copy the rarest and presumably most expensive of original vinyl surely? Might even been done already.Sad state of affairs.

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Posted
30 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

It is so strange that Simon Soussan is the only name mentioned and he was bootlegging when......30+ years ago, perhaps these people will be named in 30 years when we have all gone to bed

Alan , where do you get that view from?

the article broadcast today alone mentioned two people who were convicted last year of bootlegging

you do seem to get things wrong quite often on this subject 

the site search may be a useful tool for you if wish to research past details of bootlegging

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted

Only fake DJ’s play fake records in public. Quality events run by reputable promoters and fronted by top DJ’s or serious collectors steer well clear of bootlegs.

There are two big problems. Firstly, artists are cheated of their royalty payments. Secondly, record buyers are conned into parting with funds for goods not described accurately. eBay contribute to the problems by allowing fake goods to be sold on their platform - until they clean up their act, the trade in fake goods will continue.

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Posted
1 hour ago, Mike said:

Alan , where do you get that view from?

the article broadcast today alone mentioned two people who were convicted last year of bootlegging

you do seem to get things wrong quite often on this subject 

the site search may be a useful tool for you if wish to research past details of bootlegging

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry Mike

You are correct there were 2 people convicted, I guess I was referring to the ones that have not been and are out there

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Posted
1 hour ago, ROBNEWBURY said:

Given the technology available nowadays how long before it won't be possible to tell the difference between original and fake?If they can copy the Mona Lisa they can copy the rarest and presumably most expensive of original vinyl surely? Might even been done already.Sad state of affairs.

I'm sure Ian Levine is working on it, even as we speak.

One or two of his 'nearlys' caught some people out a couple of years back ... Magnetics (Ra-Sel), Greater Experience, Sam Williams etc.

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Posted

He's quite the vandal isn't he ... as bad as four of them, in fact 😏

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Posted
2 hours ago, ROBNEWBURY said:

Given the technology available nowadays how long before it won't be possible to tell the difference between original and fake?If they can copy the Mona Lisa they can copy the rarest and presumably most expensive of original vinyl surely? Might even been done already.Sad state of affairs.

Technology will not make up for the products once used that can no longer be obtained.  Paper is hugely different, as are paints/inks and the plastic.  It will get harder but they will be caught out.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Peter Richer said:

I'm sure Ian Levine is working on it, even as we speak.

One or two of his 'nearlys' caught some people out a couple of years back ... Magnetics (Ra-Sel), Greater Experience, Sam Williams etc.

They only got caught out because they hadn't seen them in the flesh, they were sussed as soon as seen.

Edited by Chalky

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Posted
8 minutes ago, Chalky said:

They only got caught out because they had seen them in the flesh, they were sussed as soon as seen.

Chalky, following on from Mikes comments and correcting me above is there a source (Government) of who has actually been prosecuted (other than the 2 mentioned on the programme and in the papers) 

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Posted
15 minutes ago, Chalky said:

They only got caught out because they had seen them in the flesh, they were sussed as soon as seen.

I think you mean because they hadn't seen them in the flesh.

And yes, of course that's true, that's why they were only 'nearlys'. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Peter Richer said:

I think you mean because they hadn't seen them in the flesh.

And yes, of course that's true, that's why they were only 'nearlys'. 

yes of course typo :D   But side by side most weren't even nearly

 

19 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Chalky, following on from Mikes comments and correcting me above is there a source (Government) of who has actually been prosecuted (other than the 2 mentioned on the programme and in the papers) 

dunno, there was 4 prosecuted other year and sentenced, there is a topic on here somewhere

 

Edited by Chalky

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Chalky said:

yes of course typo :D   But side by side most weren't even nearly

It doesn't matter.

The point is (and was) that IL is probably working on it; and he has a history of doing so.

 

Quote

 

Edited by Peter Richer

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Posted
2 hours ago, Chalky said:

Technology will not make up for the products once used that can no longer be obtained.  Paper is hugely different, as are paints/inks and the plastic.  It will get harder but they will be caught out.

 

Hope you're right mate but if Old Masters can be copied to such a degree that some experts can be fooled then surely 60s or 70s vinyl records can and it's not as if experts are buying them just unsuspecting soul lovers

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Posted (edited)

Let's not forget also that the biggest losers here are also the Artists themselves who have never made a Penny out of these peoples activities, They had a Dream to have a hit record and a good living for themselves or their Families, The cost of Studio Time for a single artist who would need to use a House band to play the backing Track and maybe some backing singers, and the pressing up of as many records as He or She could afford at the end of it all, some times the records would be hand printed on machines you pressed individually by hand to keep costs down, Not so bad for those who were a band where Members could Pool their Money together, but most Singers were on their own. We are all aware of the records that we revere and the Artists that we Love and Idolise to this Day but most of those are gone, no longer with us, without knowing about the Soul Scene in the UK who Started playing THEIR MUSIC that they had invested their Time and hard earned cash into, all those Classic Record and Artist we Still Love Today, It's such a Shame you Know that PARASITES were the ones Making VAST AMOUNTS OF MONEY off the back of these People without  a Thought or Care in the World, Greedy Bastards! And that is just the music that came out of the USA.

Edited by Rick Scott
spelling mistake and added text
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If you have information on piracy these are the contact details from their website

Report Music Piracy

BPI (British Recorded Music Industry)

Riverside Building 
County Hall
Westminster Bridge Road
London
SE1 7JA

Paola Monaldi, Content Protection Operations Manager

If you would like to report an 
incidence of copyright infringement 
please email: contentprotection@bpi.co.uk

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Posted (edited)

Only 40+ years down the line and Authorities only recently beginning to take notice, Wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that it is affecting well known Pop Stars now would it? 🤨 or is it that not many other records fetch the sort of money Northern Soul Records now sell for and it is not like they wern't aware of it surely ? 

Edited by Rick Scott
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Posted
10 minutes ago, Rick Scott said:

Only 40+ years down the line and Authorities only recently beginning to take notice, Wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that it is affecting well known Pop Stars now would it? 🤨 or is it the not many other records fetch the sort of money Northern Soul Records now sell for and it is not like they wern't aware of it surely ? 

Not sure Rick, but it may be about money and resources as everything is nowadays, I just hope that they do threaten the online marketplaces with hefty fines, after all these sites don't allow designer fakes such as clothes handbags and shoes, so why not bootleg records

I know that Discogs is heavily attempting to block them from sale (they haven't got it covered yet completely)

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Posted

Money. The root. Where will it all end?

Talking of money, 1973 l was articled on £4 a week (inc. Saturday mornings) and still managed to buy my first, sweet smelling 🙂, import from Malcs in Chorley for 65p. That's the tune. Little adv sticker. 

Just an insight which prob rings true with others still here on planet soul. Ktf ✊

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Posted

I have found what appears to be a superb website in Telford and it handles fakes and counterfeits

https://www.ukantipiracy.co.uk/contact.html

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Posted
13 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I have found what appears to be a superb website in Telford and it handles fakes and counterfeits

https://www.ukantipiracy.co.uk/contact.html

 

imo if reporting piracy you be better off sticking to official websites such as the one you mentioned earlier...

 

3 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

If you have information on piracy these are the contact details from their website

Report Music Piracy

BPI (British Recorded Music Industry)

Riverside Building 
County Hall
Westminster Bridge Road
London
SE1 7JA

Paola Monaldi, Content Protection Operations Manager

If you would like to report an 
incidence of copyright infringement 
please email: contentprotection@bpi.co.uk

 

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Posted

I might be missing the point here but the bootlegs/counterfeits in question have not been made to deceive anybody, a thousand pound record for a tenner ! they are just made to make a quick buck off the returnees or newly converted to the scene.

The main gripe that seems to come through is that people are then having the audacity to go out and them play the boots at northern soul nights.

Bootlegs have always been  a part of this scene but because of Ebay and the likes it is more prevalent.

 

 

 

 

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Posted
20 minutes ago, Shinehead said:

I might be missing the point here

I think the point of the programme is that some people are selling knock offs as originals for inflated sums

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Posted (edited)

Since moving 'south of the river' a few years ago, I have noticed that a lot of people do not seem to know or really care about whether something is on original vinyl or a boot. We even had a bootlegger selling stuff from his mums bungalow in West Sussex, which several people reported. For most these days, it seems all it is about is having the tune at an affordable price, rather than any quest for authenticity / legacy. A bit like the 70s really. And that in a nutshell creates the demand for the pirates to do more and more. I am sure it is probably the same everywhere. 

Edited by Steve G
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Posted
1 hour ago, Steve G said:

a lot of people do not seem to know or really care about whether something is on original vinyl or a boot

if they are paying the price for an original they should care or are utter mugs

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Posted
13 hours ago, Shufflin said:

if they are paying the price for an original they should care or are utter mugs

The point is they are not. They go to gigs, hear tunes they like and pick them up for £10-20. Ignorance is bliss in this case.

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Posted
1 hour ago, Steve G said:

The point is they are not. They go to gigs, hear tunes they like and pick them up for £10-20. Ignorance is bliss in this case.

That was the point I was trying to make in my post earlier , anybody buying these boots thinking they are getting an original must be stupid.

They are buying them to play at home and know what they are getting like most of people buying boots in the seventies.

 

 

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Posted

"I know that Discogs is heavily attempting to block them from sale (they haven't got it covered yet completely"

 

They are not even close to having it covered.. look at this, bootlegs the lot of them:

https://www.discogs.com/label/692572-Soul-From-The-Vaults

 

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Posted
20 hours ago, Shufflin said:

I think the point of the programme is that some people are selling knock offs as originals for inflated sums

If that was the point of the programme then as usual when it comes to NS it was mostly wrong.

There was the Levine thing where counterfeits do seem to have been passed off as originals but apart from that, as Steve G states, people know what they're getting.

No one is buying the FW 45 shown thinking it's the original. They might think it's legit which is a different thing altogether.

Guys selling photocopied labels on UK eBay usually state that in the ad. Yes they often fetch daft prices but not original prices.

I don't think there is a large gullible market out there. Just people who don't want to spend large amounts of money on buying records they like.

 

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Posted
3 hours ago, Johndelve said:

And, for that matter, this lot too:

 

https://www.discogs.com/label/692259-Soul-From-The-Vault

Have you contacted them or are you not a member ?

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Posted
2 hours ago, Modernsoulsucks said:

If that was the point of the programme then as usual when it comes to NS it was mostly wrong.

There was the Levine thing where counterfeits do seem to have been passed off as originals but apart from that, as Steve G states, people know what they're getting.

No one is buying the FW 45 shown thinking it's the original. They might think it's legit which is a different thing altogether.

Guys selling photocopied labels on UK eBay usually state that in the ad. Yes they often fetch daft prices but not original prices.

I don't think there is a large gullible market out there. Just people who don't want to spend large amounts of money on buying records they like.

 

I agree Rod. From what I see, they just don't care, as long as they can DJ or play it at home. 

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