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News: A Cellarful Of Motown Volume 5 - CD set Out Now


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There might be, and also may not be.  Same for "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet".   Both songs on the Tollie release could have been the same exact recordings that Marc Gordon and Frank Wilson sent to

No Motown recording of Sleepless Nights has been located ... I got somebody to look into it but nothing was found andy

The real Marc Gordon -   

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Frank Wilson – A Toast To The Lady

Is this from the Motown Vaults or is it the Tollie Recording?  It might be a Jobete publishing but surely thats as close to Motown as it got?

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Posted
6 hours ago, Chalky said:

Frank Wilson – A Toast To The Lady

Is this from the Motown Vaults or is it the Tollie Recording?  It might be a Jobete publishing but surely thats as close to Motown as it got?

The tape was in the Motown Vaults and logged as Frank Wilson ... to my ears it is exactly the same as the Tollie 45

Andy

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... and we know from previous chats ... Robb K has elaborted often .. that if the stuff recorded in the embryonic LA set up weren't of interest in Detroit they could shop the tracks to other record labels

Andy

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Andy Rix said:

The tape was in the Motown Vaults and logged as Frank Wilson ... to my ears it is exactly the same as the Tollie 45

Andy

Surprised me that, it wasn't on DFTMC website and not sure why a recording for Tollie would be with Motown?

12 hours ago, Andy Rix said:

... and we know from previous chats ... Robb K has elaborted often .. that if the stuff recorded in the embryonic LA set up weren't of interest in Detroit they could shop the tracks to other record labels

Andy

Realise there is a lot of Jobete material from the West Coast office out there on other labels, Paris "Sleepless Nights" and Sandy Wynn "Touch Of Venue" two examples on Doc.  I assumed Toast To The Lady was simply one of those of no interest to Motown and Frank did it himself as Eddie Wilson.  

I wonder if there is a Motown recording artist doing Sleepless Nights?

Edited by Chalky
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No Motown recording of Sleepless Nights has been located ... I got somebody to look into it but nothing was found

andy

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Any idea when this will be available in the U.S. ? I've tried Amazon, Dusty Groove, e-bay and discogs (if you type in Cellar Full of Motown, it brings up a Patti Labelle?????  CD) . There's no mention of it on any U.S. sites. 

 

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2 hours ago, The Yank said:

Any idea when this will be available in the U.S. ? I've tried Amazon, Dusty Groove, e-bay and discogs (if you type in Cellar Full of Motown, it brings up a Patti Labelle?????  CD) . There's no mention of it on any U.S. sites. 

 

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?26511-A-Cellarful-Of-Motown-Vol-5

Not sure if there's anything here regarding US sellers my friend 

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3 hours ago, The Yank said:

Any idea when this will be available in the U.S. ? I've tried Amazon, Dusty Groove, e-bay and discogs (if you type in Cellar Full of Motown, it brings up a Patti Labelle?????  CD) . There's no mention of it on any U.S. sites. 

 

 
 

the second disc article featured/linked in our news article leads to this

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B087R5PKDG/?tag=thesecdis-20

it says 

This title will be released on September 25, 2020.

guess thats the usa date?

 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Chalky said:

Surprised me that, it wasn't on DFTMC website and not sure why a recording for Tollie would be with Motown?

Realise there is a lot of Jobete material from the West Coast office out there on other labels, Paris "Sleepless Nights" and Sandy Wynn "Touch Of Venue" two examples on Doc.  I assumed Toast To The Lady was simply one of those of no interest to Motown and Frank did it himself as Eddie Wilson.  

I wonder if there is a Motown recording artist doing Sleepless Nights?

There might be, and also may not be.  Same for "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet".   Both songs on the Tollie release could have been the same exact recordings that Marc Gordon and Frank Wilson sent to Detroit as the demos for use as guides for the eventual Motown release artists.  The songs were not recorded by Motown on one of their own artists, and therefore, not had a release within the the time specified in the producer's contract, so release rights reverted back to Marc Gordon and Frank Wilson.  So those two leased the 2 recordings to VJ's Tollie Records.  Motown still kept the tapes because Jobete Music owned the publishing rights, and Motown still had the rights to release a version on their own artist, they only lost the EXCLUSIVE FIRST rights to release.  BOTH Marc Gordon/Frank Wilson AND Motown still had the rights to release records using those recordings in perpetuity after that, until some change in ownership would arise.  Sometimes the recordings made for Jobete's proof of song ownership, and those made for singing guides for the eventual Motown commercial singers had complete (finished) instrumental track mixes, and sometimes not.  When they weren't finished, they would differ from the "version" on the released non-Motown issued record.  When the non-Motown record's instrumental was much more complete than the "proof of ownership" tape or acetate in The Motown vaults for a song that wasn't recorded on a Motown artist in a finished version, we can assume that it was re-recorded by the independent producers, or finishing tracks were added by them, later, after Motown's right of first issue deadline had passed.  Sometimes, however, when the "proof of ownership or singer guide version was finished enough, the producer decided to release it as is, on his own label, or lease it, as is, to an existing record company.   I'm still waiting for a mid-1964 Detroit-recorded version of "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet" by Mary Wells, backed by The Funk Brothers and Motown Band to be found among the vaulted material! 😍  What was Mary Wells' loss was Mary Love's gain, and probably got her her work With Motown in The 1970s, after they moved to L.A.

On 19/09/2020 at 05:47, Chalky said:

Frank Wilson – A Toast To The Lady

Is this from the Motown Vaults or is it the Tollie Recording?  It might be a Jobete publishing but surely that's as close to Motown as it got?

The "Tollie" recording may be the same recording as "Motown's " (or should I say, Jobete's).  As I've written many times before, during 1963-66, Jobete Music Co. Los Angeles was operated by Hal Davis and Marc Gordon.  They were employees of Jobete Music, but their services were NOT EXCLUSIVE to Motown.  Under their contracts (Frank Wilson, and the other Jobete L.A producers were also included in this), they wrote songs, and produced recordings for proof of ownership, and as guides for final recording singers).  Level 1) They could still produce recordings to NOT even be offered to Jobete, and could be produced by them on non-Motown artists, and released on their own non-Motown labels.  Level 2) They could record songs offerred to Jobete Music, that Jobete might turn down, and not purchase.  THAT is what I would call "NO interest".  An example of that scenario is "The Things You Do To Me" by The Vows.  Of course, Hal Davis and Marc Gordon would then publish through their own, Finesse Music, and release on their own label, or lease to someone else's label.  The Frank Wilson Tollie record is NOT that situation, but rather Level 3), the case in which Jobete Music WAS interested, and bought the song, and published it.  Clearly Jobete Music had interest in those songs they purchased, but not enough compared to the hundreds of other songs they published during the 6 to 12 months after their purchase, to record them by one of Motown's artists.  There was a time period after the purchase that Motown had to record a given songwithin, or rights to release the first version would revert back to the L.A. Jobete producer.  If I remember correctly, Motown had to record the song on one of their artists within 6 months after the purchase, or the producer could then release it.  IF Motown recorded it on one of their artists, I believe they had 3(or, possibly 6) more months to release the record, or then, the rights of first release would be over, and the producer would have the rights.  I believe the Barbara Randolph version of "I'm So Thankful" fit that scenario.  Jobete bought the song, and had Randolph record it.  But it wasn't released in the 3 months after, so there were no "first rights" any longer, and the producers were free to lease the productions to Modern Records, and I also think Modern paid Davis/Gordon to produce the final recordings on The Ikettes' session.

Edited by Robbk
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12 hours ago, Robbk said:

I believe the Barbara Randolph version of "I'm So Thankful" fit that scenario.  Jobete bought the song, and had Randolph record it.  But it wasn't released in the 3 months after, so there were no "first rights" any longer, and the producers were free to lease the productions to Modern Records, and I also think Modern paid Davis/Gordon to produce the final recordings on The Ikettes' session.

I don't think Barbara's version of "I'm So Thankful" fits that scenario. According to the Don't Forget The Motor  City web site, the Ikettes version of the song was recorded on August 14, 1965. The Barbara Randolph version of "I'm So Thankful" was recorded on March 31, 1967- almost a year and a half later ! 

    "The Touch Of Venus" would make a bit more sense- Marvin's version was recorded on June 22, 1964, Patrice Holloway's version on September 10, 1964. Sandy Wynn's version is hard to pin point -it was probably recorded soon after Patrice's version. Sandy's 45 had a late '64/ early '65 release. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, The Yank said:

I don't think Barbara's version of "I'm So Thankful" fits that scenario. According to the Don't Forget The Motor  City web site, the Ikettes version of the song was recorded on August 14, 1965. The Barbara Randolph version of "I'm So Thankful" was recorded on March 31, 1967- almost a year and a half later ! 

    "The Touch Of Venus" would make a bit more sense- Marvin's version was recorded on June 22, 1964, Patrice Holloway's version on September 10, 1964. Sandy Wynn's version is hard to pin point -it was probably recorded soon after Patrice's version. Sandy's 45 had a late '64/ early '65 release. 

Thanks for pointing that out.  I was only guessing.   In any case, the Aug. Ikettes' recording of "I'm So Thankful was made more than 6 months after Jobete Music bought the song, because Motown hadn't recorded it, nor slated it for recording and releasing during the contract-specified time window.  Barbara Randolph's recording follows my other scenario that specifies that Motown didn't lose the rights to record a song and release it after the 6 month window, but simply lost the rights for "first release", explaining why there could be L.A. Jobete song releases on both Motown and non-Motown labels at roughly the same general period(a few months apart), and also in totally different years.

Edited by Robbk
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But Jobete own the publishing, that wouldn't go anywhere else would it even if Motown didn't record it.  If Frank Wilson and Marc Gordon were staff writers wouldn't the song be registered with Jobete straight away rather than those two sell it to Jobete?

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Yes, once Jobete Music Co. ACCEPTED any given song produced by these employees/independent contractors, it was automatically owned by Jobete.  But, they didn't accept every song offered to them from the overall production.  They "bought" only what they wanted out of what was available (offered).  I don't know the exact working relationship between Hal Davis and Marc Gordon (as individual employees PLUS being and independent contracting company (perhaps Finesse Music Co.?)).  I got the idea that they were paid a base salary as Jobete Music Co. employees, and then received some additional fees as independent contractors, for each song accepted (bought?) by Jobete.  I'm not sure if Frank Wilson, Chester and Gary Pipkin, Al Capps, and the other writer/producers received payment from both sources.  But, I would guess that if more of their songs were accepted, they would have earned more money.  I have no idea whether or not some of the writer/producers other than Hal Davis and Marc Gordon (Wilson, The Pipkins, Capps, and the others) were employees, or JUST independent contractors, receiving fees for each accepted song.  I would guess that Wilson was also an employee, and, perhaps The Pipkins were, but probably the rest (Ed Cobb, Willie Hutch(ison), Al Capps, Charles Wright, and Vince Love weren't). 

It was clear that Berry (Motown) didn't want to sink tons of operating capital into running a big operation in L.A. that would add a lot of operating expenses to their overall firm overhead operating cost.  But, they DID want a presence on The West Coast.  They didn't know how much such an operation could help them, so finding a local, existing, successful producer/record label owner/A&R man to subcontract to them (at least until they would decide to run a full-fledged operation there).  Hal Davis and Marc Gordon filled that bill, but didn't want to give up their independent operations.  So, a hybrid operation was set up.  In that way, Motown could just siphon off the best of their production, and save a lot of operating costs.  If individual singers (The Holloway Sisters, The Vows, The Versatiles, Little Lisa) appeared marketable, and producers did well (Frank Wilson) they could sign them to artist contracts, and/or hire them directly.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Chalky said:

But Jobete own the publishing, that wouldn't go anywhere else would it even if Motown didn't record it.  If Frank Wilson and Marc Gordon were staff writers wouldn't the song be registered with Jobete straight away rather than those two sell it to Jobete?

Info you need "might" be gained from here

https://myblackbean.ca/marc

Edited by Blackpoolsoul
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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Andy Rix said:

Marc Gordon died in 2010  

Andy

I didn't know that (just trying to help Andy) RIP Marc

Did Bobby Wilburn (if it is him, get back to you ?)

Edited by Blackpoolsoul
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Totally appreciate you are only trying to add info .. I wonder why that guy would make such a claim 

I passed potential contact details for Bobby Wilburn in to Sean H

Andy

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I don't get what that BlackBean website is???  The Motown-related Marc Gordon was an African American who was born in the 1930s, and died at age 74 in 2010.  That White guy pictured on BlackBean's site is still alive, and maybe in his early 50s right now.  Yet BlackBean claims that young, Canadian customer service executive had the Black Marc Gordon's past, which occurred before the Canadian Marc Gordon was born! 

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6 hours ago, Robbk said:

I don't get what that BlackBean website is???  The Motown-related Marc Gordon was an African American who was born in the 1930s, and died at age 74 in 2010.  That White guy pictured on BlackBean's site is still alive, and maybe in his early 50s right now.  Yet BlackBean claims that young, Canadian customer service executive had the Black Marc Gordon's past, which occurred before the Canadian Marc Gordon was born! 

the site has suffered from some 'cross contamination' of content and because of how Google works has no doubt come up if you put in Marc, Gordon, producer, so pretty much irrelevant. 

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6 minutes ago, Simon T said:

the site has suffered from some 'cross contamination' of content and because of how Google works has no doubt come up if you put in Marc, Gordon, producer, so pretty much irrelevant. 

It's not only that if you google "Marc Gordon" you get sent to that website, it's the fact that the website includes a brief history of The Motown Marc Gordon in his so-called biography. Whoever set up that website, not knowing much about that subject, wanted to get more information on its subject.  So he must  have googled "Marc Gordon", and not been too observant, and not noticed that the birthdate showed 1935, and maybe not noticed that the man was already deceased.  And he was unlucky enough to have been sent to a website that didn't list birth and death dates, nor a photo (which would have shown he was a Black man).  To have that information as an integral part of his website and have "cross contamination", he would have had to have opened up his site for public access to allow public contribution, like Wikipedia.

This just seems very weird because anyone who has any relationship to the Canadian Marc Gordon to make a website about his customer service consultancy expertise should know he wasn't a Black man, and he didn't work for Motown as a record producer, or he shouldn't be making the website without obtaining an official biography from the person being touted, or his personal business office; and he shouldn't add anything to his website before getting it approved by the person's office. 

This looks like some kind of assanine failed attempt to make some kind of joke.

 

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8 hours ago, Robbk said:

It's not only that if you google "Marc Gordon" you get sent to that website, it's the fact that the website includes a brief history of The Motown Marc Gordon in his so-called biography. Whoever set up that website, not knowing much about that subject, wanted to get more information on its subject.  So he must  have googled "Marc Gordon", and not been too observant, and not noticed that the birthdate showed 1935, and maybe not noticed that the man was already deceased.  And he was unlucky enough to have been sent to a website that didn't list birth and death dates, nor a photo (which would have shown he was a Black man).  To have that information as an integral part of his website and have "cross contamination", he would have had to have opened up his site for public access to allow public contribution, like Wikipedia.

This just seems very weird because anyone who has any relationship to the Canadian Marc Gordon to make a website about his customer service consultancy expertise should know he wasn't a Black man, and he didn't work for Motown as a record producer, or he shouldn't be making the website without obtaining an official biography from the person being touted, or his personal business office; and he shouldn't add anything to his website before getting it approved by the person's office. 

This looks like some kind of assanine failed attempt to make some kind of joke.

 

Glad I spotted it, the net is full of falsehoods

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Posted (edited)
On 19/09/2020 at 05:47, Chalky said:

Frank Wilson – A Toast To The Lady

Is this from the Motown Vaults or is it the Tollie Recording?  It might be a Jobete publishing but surely thats as close to Motown as it got?

Although they could have been one in the same, based on listening to a 30-second snippet, it seems this is a different version, seemingly with tracks recorded in Detroit added.  Frank's vocal sounds the same, but it sounds like a n Earl van Dyke organ track has been added.  It's hard to tell if any of the rest of the instrumental is different.

You can hear 30 second snippets at this website:

https://www.juno.co.uk/products/a-cellarful-of-motown-volume-5/789779-01/

 

 

Edited by Robbk
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3 hours ago, The Yank said:

Got my CD. My question is did "True Fine Boy" by Saundra Edwards ever get released on CD? 

 

The last I ever heard on it was that her vocal was not yet found.  Does anyone know that it HAS been found???

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I think I can answer my own question- there is none!

A few years back, I was involved in a CD swap on another web site and one of the tracks I got was 

labelled "True Fine Boy" - Saundra Edwards. I just listened to it, its the same instrumental as on 

CFOM #5. 

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