A bit of discussion on another topic led to this topic start up

a topic on the subject 'Pre-order sales' in general 

So what are the members takes out there on this practice...

appreciate, avoid, partake, welcome, good, bad  etc etc..?

Ah, you beat me to it. Was going to start up a topic on this as per your suggestion.

My thoughts are that while pre-orders are potentially great for the record label (less cash outlay up-front, and paying for the pressing of the full run is then self financed by advance purchases - and, if the tunes on the 45 create a wave among punters, it's likely there will be a feeding frenzy, which can be encouragement for the label to do a re-press), too many labels now use this as a business model.

Pre-orders that ship in a couple of weeks are generally fine, but we're now at the stage where a number of labels are shipping two, three, sometime four months after purchase.  That's not on.

I wouldn't buy a record, or anything else for that matter, from, say, eBay or Discogs, on the basis that the seller is going to ship it to me in 13 weeks time.

I've bought it - I want it now... or as least as soon as the postal service can deliver it to me.

Also, if you're buying pre-orders on a regular basis, it can be difficult to keep up with what you've bought. Indeed, I've bought pre-releases a second time, having forgotten that I'd already bought it maybe six week prior. That, of course, is my problem, not the seller's.

My view is that if you've got to get the cash up front before you can make and deliver whatever it is people have paid for, then your business model is wrong - certainly from a customer perspective.

It used to be that ordering new releases in advance was quite unusual. Now it seems just about every person and their dog with a label uses the same approach. In isolation it's not a big deal, but when 'everyone' is doing it, it becomes a pain.

I don't like it.

Edited November 4, 20213 yr by Amsterdam Russ
typo

14 minutes ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Also, if you're buying pre-orders on a regular basis, it can be difficult to keep up with what you've bought. Indeed, I've bought pre-releases a second time, having forgotten that I'd already bought it maybe six week prior. That, of course, is my problem, not the seller's.

 

Agree and to prove it I have duplicate copies of several having lost touch with what I have ordered!

MarkT

Remember the Secret Stash debacle.

Was it the Toddling Town album that never materialised!

That was quite a bit of dosh upfront wasn’t it?

My view on this in regard to 'Hit and Run' label is that I simply don't solicit or accept pre-orders.  There are simply too many things that can go wrong in production and cause delays - and selfishly perhaps - I don't want to be having to take time to field enquiries about why folks haven't received their orders.

And for that reason I've taken to not announcing forthcoming releases until I actually have them shown as shipped from the factory - otherwise a mountain of orders come flying in when I've no exact date as to when I can mail out.

I guess I can take that stance having not to worry about cashflowing future releases.

 

From a buyers stand point I have no quarms about purchasing via a secure pre release order as it  quarantees me a Ltd release purchase I particularly wanted at original retail cost , rather than highly inflated prices,  driven by demand,  from sellers/scalpers once sold out. 
In an ideal world. I'd love to be able to walk into a local vinyl record shop and instantly buy what I want , when I want. I can only dream....

Edited November 5, 20213 yr by Andybellwood

5 minutes ago, Andybellwood said:

From a buyers stand point I have no quarms about purchasing via a secure pre release order as it  quarantees me a Ltd release purchase I particularly wanted at original retail cost , rather than highly inflated prices,  driven by demand,  from sellers/scalpers once sold out. 
In an ideal world. I'd love to be able to walk into a local vinyl record shop and instantly buy what I want , when I want. I can only dream....

But you and other label owners are driving the market of scalpers as you call them, I can think of better names for some.  the amount you and others press, generally 300, is not enough and has been a bone of contention for a long time.  500 should be the minimum for any quality release.  Some who don't do limited releases are selling 4 figure quantities.  Surely more sales would also benefit the licence holder as well as the labels.

With pre orders, surely a month maximum should be the time to allow preorder, and that is only with a guaranteed shipping and release date.  One up today with a release date 6 months away!  It is becoming a joke.  Radio stations are also getting the tracks months in advance and in many cases they are hammered, they don't feel too special when you actually get the vinyl.  I understand the need to plug and plug many tracks myself, but never six months before release.

If I know and trust the people I’m ok with it have no issue supporting that if required. 

If I don’t know them I’d rather wait. 

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

With pre orders, surely a month maximum should be the time to allow preorder, and that is only with a guaranteed shipping and release date.  One up today with a release date 6 months away!  It is becoming a joke.  Radio stations are also getting the tracks months in advance and in many cases they are hammered, they don't feel too special when you actually get the vinyl.  I understand the need to plug and plug many tracks myself, but never six months before release.

There's a number of things here I think.

Firstly there is the fact that the normal record industry works on a pre-order basis. This ties in with how the press and promo works for an artist based album. Which means that announcements are made from 6 weeks to three months up front.  Most sales in the industry today are from pre-orders, so it isn't surprising this has crossed over to specialist reissues.

There is no excuse for six month, but I think it is probably the result of a lot of 'hobby labels' popping up, where turnaround times are operating on as much as a 9 month period from order to a finished record being delivered and the owners of these new labels probably have to pay upfront to even have their order considered at the moment.

I think you're right on the numbers for a pressing. There is rarely any need to press only 300 records, the cost per unit of that and the fixed costs for the release will probably make it more expensive to press 300 that 500 (or the difference will be marginal). However it is much easier to sell out 250 units at £20 than it is to sell out 500 at a £10, because the buyers are to a certain extent thinking that they will be able to make a profit on the record.

Looking at the past decade of 7 inch sales, it is quite rare to burst through the 1000 marker for a 7 inch but it can be done - our Leroy Hutson Positive Forces did nearly 2000, and two of the Kevin Fingier's have done between 1200 and 1500. But most do between 400 and 750.

At Acid Jazz and with our Fingier and Miles Away subsidiaries we like to try and do a two to four week pre-sale, which allows us time to do promo campaigns, but sometime it stretches out a bit from there for reasons beyond our control.

 

 

 

As most folks now know, the lead times for new vinyl manufacture is getting ridiculous.  Hit and Run are presently working on 20 weeks from start to finish tho' that does vary from week to week.  For that reason, it is now impossible to give an actual release date so far in advance and for that reason alone I won't take advance orders or even send out promo mp3s so frar in advance or, as Dean says, by the time the vinyl is actually released the pre-plays have faded somewhat.

I suspect cashflow is at the heart of this; with the delay of 20 weeks, if you're trying to schedule a release a month it means you need to have 5 releases in the queue at the plant (HR currently have EIGHT in line) in order to achieve continuity- that's a lot of royalty advances, MCPS, mastering costs, pressing costs.  Some of the recent labels possibly wouldn't want to make that commitment.

If you have enough confidence in your release to actually release it, then believe it will actually sell when it gets released - I don't quite get this pre-ordering simply for FOMO.

My pressing run is 400 + 50 and I haven't yet sold out within 2 months - which is ample time for someone who actually wants it to buy it.

56 minutes ago, Dewsburyborn said:

As most folks now know, the lead times for new vinyl manufacture is getting ridiculous.  Hit and Run are presently working on 20 weeks from start to finish tho' that does vary from week to week.  For that reason, it is now impossible to give an actual release date so far in advance and for that reason alone I won't take advance orders or even send out promo mp3s so frar in advance or, as Dean says, by the time the vinyl is actually released the pre-plays have faded somewhat.

I suspect cashflow is at the heart of this; with the delay of 20 weeks, if you're trying to schedule a release a month it means you need to have 5 releases in the queue at the plant (HR currently have EIGHT in line) in order to achieve continuity- that's a lot of royalty advances, MCPS, mastering costs, pressing costs.  Some of the recent labels possibly wouldn't want to make that commitment.

If you have enough confidence in your release to actually release it, then believe it will actually sell when it gets released - I don't quite get this pre-ordering simply for FOMO.

My pressing run is 400 + 50 and I haven't yet sold out within 2 months - which is ample time for someone who actually wants it to buy it.

Thanks Gary - a helpful insight .

In your metrics are the +50 demos ? 

I get cash flow, outlays, licences, contracts, royalties etc. But surely any business would factor these into their expenses and hope to recover at the end, not expect buyers to stump the cash up months in advance as what seems to be happening.  If you can't afford the outlay then really it isn't a market you should be entering is it?  

 

1 hour ago, Dewsburyborn said:

As most folks now know, the lead times for new vinyl manufacture is getting ridiculous.  Hit and Run are presently working on 20 weeks from start to finish tho' that does vary from week to week.  For that reason, it is now impossible to give an actual release date so far in advance and for that reason alone I won't take advance orders or even send out promo mp3s so frar in advance or, as Dean says, by the time the vinyl is actually released the pre-plays have faded somewhat.

I suspect cashflow is at the heart of this; with the delay of 20 weeks, if you're trying to schedule a release a month it means you need to have 5 releases in the queue at the plant (HR currently have EIGHT in line) in order to achieve continuity- that's a lot of royalty advances, MCPS, mastering costs, pressing costs.  Some of the recent labels possibly wouldn't want to make that commitment.

If you have enough confidence in your release to actually release it, then believe it will actually sell when it gets released - I don't quite get this pre-ordering simply for FOMO.

My pressing run is 400 + 50 and I haven't yet sold out within 2 months - which is ample time for someone who actually wants it to buy it.

Interesting Gary, and at 5 months-ish, I think you're doing better than most people are right now.

And a good point on pressing numbers and people buying it.

I never want to created artificial rarities, but some punters seem very keen for them, but I was interested on the reactions we got with a record we made at the start of 2020 when you could get a 3 week turnaround on a repress. We seriously misjudged the demand for this single and pressed in two runs. This somehow got out and some people were determined to try and claim that there was a first and second pressing in an attempt to attract rarity.

 

8 minutes ago, Andybellwood said:

Thanks Gary - a helpful insight .

In your metrics are the +50 demos ? 

Hi Andy - yes, 50 demos

1 minute ago, Chalky said:

I get cash flow, outlays, licences, contracts, royalties etc. But surely any business would factor these into their expenses and hope to recover at the end, not expect buyers to stump the cash up months in advance as what seems to be happening.  If you can't afford the outlay then really it isn't a market you should be entering is it?  

 

Good point.

As an established label, we can afford all this, and in many ways it would be to our advantage if there were no new entrants to the market.

But whilst I think 6 months up front is silly - it's really down to customers not to lay down money that far in advance.

20 hours ago, Dewsburyborn said:

My view on this in regard to 'Hit and Run' label is that I simply don't solicit or accept pre-orders.  There are simply too many things that can go wrong in production and cause delays - and selfishly perhaps - I don't want to be having to take time to field enquiries about why folks haven't received their orders.

And for that reason I've taken to not announcing forthcoming releases until I actually have them shown as shipped from the factory - otherwise a mountain of orders come flying in when I've no exact date as to when I can mail out.

I guess I can take that stance having not to worry about cashflowing future releases.

 

That's experience from a veteran record dealer for you 😉

 

59 minutes ago, Dean Rudland said:

Interesting Gary, and at 5 months-ish, I think you're doing better than most people are right now.

And a good point on pressing numbers and people buying it.

I never want to created artificial rarities, but some punters seem very keen for them, but I was interested on the reactions we got with a record we made at the start of 2020 when you could get a 3 week turnaround on a repress. We seriously misjudged the demand for this single and pressed in two runs. This somehow got out and some people were determined to try and claim that there was a first and second pressing in an attempt to attract rarity.

 

It's pathetic isn't it.  The music seems to be secondary too far too many these days, they want that instant rarity regardless of the quality.

5 minutes ago, Chalky said:

It's pathetic isn't it.  The music seems to be secondary too far too many these days, they want that instant rarity regardless of the quality.

A well thought comment which I agree with so much.

Just my thoughts, not meant to upset anyone, but probably will.

Re; Demo's is this not just a case of sticking a different coulor label on and selling at an increased price?

i've seen demo's and releases  come on the market the same day, my belief was vinyl Demo's were touted round in the days before mp3's and instant music on the world wide web to secure air time on radio stations ??

 

i, for one, am happy with how label owners offer up new releases. I get re-worked, re-mastered, new material, never before released, etc, and for a small price, so i'm happy to pay upfront & wait for delivery. Yes, sometimes i miss out due to small pre-ordering quantity runs but other times i don't - that's just life.

1 hour ago, Andy Brads said:

Just my thoughts, not meant to upset anyone, but probably will.

Re; Demo's is this not just a case of sticking a different coulor label on and selling at an increased price?

i've seen demo's and releases  come on the market the same day, my belief was vinyl Demo's were touted round in the days before mp3's and instant music on the world wide web to secure air time on radio stations ??

 

Spot on and they often stated "Not For Sale". That would really mess things up, imagine if they were banned from sale😀

 

2 hours ago, Andy Brads said:

Just my thoughts, not meant to upset anyone, but probably will.

Re; Demo's is this not just a case of sticking a different coulor label on and selling at an increased price?

 

2 hours ago, Andy Brads said:

i've seen demo's and releases  come on the market the same day, my belief was vinyl Demo's were touted round in the days before mp3's and instant music on the world wide web to secure air time on radio stations ??

 

topic about demos here

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/topic/422195-white-promos-of-new-releases/

best try and keep this topic to pre-order talk and use the other one for demo talk 👍

So this is pre-order in April next year ? 

 

1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

So this is pre-order in April next year ? 

 

 

Yes the official release date is April next year. We have had to put it back a few times now due to the long vinyl delays which have changed things. We understand this is a long wait and we want to thanks our customers for being patient and understanding.

Why can the pre order not be sold on a promise to purchase,  when in stock , send a notice to pay or no record , so far this year I've purchased 3 , still waiting for 2 , and the last one went on public sale before my copy arrived , and is still available,so was never any fear of missing out.

I know of the issues in the record plants etc , but waiting sometimes up to 6 months , hope I get a chance to play them before my grand children ,,,

 

 

Some interesting observations and criticisms above. In my own case as Soul Junction Music i never advertise any product until i physically have it in my possession. Once the product has arrived i set a release date, then proceed to arm the radio Dj's who kindly promote my products with a press release and promo MP3's usually 5-6 weeks prior to my set release date. Then after some radio play and usually 3 weeks prior to the release date i forward pre-order e-mail notifications to my wholesale and retail customers then forward a reminder e-mail i week prior to the products release., and that is my M.O. The current pressing plant scenario although not ideal is not really a problem to me once i strike a licensing deal i just bang it in the works at the plant and adopt a 'Que Sara Sara' attitude, luckily for me Soul Junction is not my only business interest which is a good thing but what it does mean is two things which hopefully customers reading this will take note of:

1. When people are bombarding me with e-mails and pms and i don't answer immediately it is that i'm busy with my other businesses and will reply when able.

2. The reason for the 3 week pre-order interval is it gives me time to prepare the orders to ship on or as close to the release date as possible usually during evenings and weekends (some of you should try packing 500 45 singles at one time). It does make me smile when i see post regarding quotes about a Soul Junction team when you find them just let me know, afraid i'm a team of one.

I'm not usually one to make such posts on public forums but  hopefully given the above explanation prospective customers (and some of the older ones) will  have a better insight into how Soul Junction rolls and for me if will help reduce some of of the crazy e-mails and pms i receive. 

Your business is appreciated.

Dave

SJ

 

 

On 04/11/2021 at 16:10, Amsterdam Russ said:

Ah, you beat me to it. Was going to start up a topic on this as per your suggestion.

My thoughts are that while pre-orders are potentially great for the record label (less cash outlay up-front, and paying for the pressing of the full run is then self financed by advance purchases - and, if the tunes on the 45 create a wave among punters, it's likely there will be a feeding frenzy, which can be encouragement for the label to do a re-press), too many labels now use this as a business model.

Pre-orders that ship in a couple of weeks are generally fine, but we're now at the stage where a number of labels are shipping two, three, sometime four months after purchase.  That's not on.

I wouldn't buy a record, or anything else for that matter, from, say, eBay or Discogs, on the basis that the seller is going to ship it to me in 13 weeks time.

I've bought it - I want it now... or as least as soon as the postal service can deliver it to me.

Also, if you're buying pre-orders on a regular basis, it can be difficult to keep up with what you've bought. Indeed, I've bought pre-releases a second time, having forgotten that I'd already bought it maybe six week prior. That, of course, is my problem, not the seller's.

My view is that if you've got to get the cash up front before you can make and deliver whatever it is people have paid for, then your business model is wrong - certainly from a customer perspective.

It used to be that ordering new releases in advance was quite unusual. Now it seems just about every person and their dog with a label uses the same approach. In isolation it's not a big deal, but when 'everyone' is doing it, it becomes a pain.

I don't like it.

Perfectly put !! A couple or three weeks pre-order I can stomach.. but four months !?! No feckin' way and I don't care how good a tune it might be

I wish I could get my customers to pay up front.. I'd be a fekin' millionaire

Read this thread with interest, there are some great points made by people who are and have been delivering in the vinyl market for a long time. 

I can understand the pre-order route, and as a small label set up only a few years ago, Des and I made the decision to not follow that, but wait until we had the releases ready. Gary and Dave nailed it, sometimes the feeding frenzy of receiving a couple of hundred orders in a matter of hours can be overwhelming - that's why we invested in an e-commerce system and Des handles all of our distribution now. It made more sense to kit one place out to get parcels sent as soon as possible. 

In terms of delays, yes the plants are getting busier and busier and the time frames have crept up, we have been with the same plant since the start and fortunately they try to minimise the delays as we have a good relationship with them. Most labels also manage the , digitisation, restoration of older tapes, mastering as well as the physical pressing queues. It can be a long chain of events let alone getting out and digging for things. 

For buyers, the vinyl market is incredibly vibrant with fantastic releases appearing pretty much weekly. I appreciate they don't want to miss out on releases but, personally as a buyer - I don't like the pre-order when it is weeks and months. But as I said, I can understand why some do it, and why some have fallen foul of serious delays at plants. I saw lots of crowdfunding type comments on another media platform, and I can see why it could be likened to that. 

We are fortunate that we started through self funding and carried on that ethos, like many of the comments above from other labels, we pay for the pressing and wait for it to spit out of the other end. We ask people to give us a week to get everything packaged and moving on release, and our systems issue a posted notice with tracking details once sent.

We also try to support some other labels by buying on the pre-orders and then only advertising when we have stock. Is it the same price that you can buy the pre-order, No. Is it a scalping price, we don't think so. Also there tends to be a decrease in the scalpers prices when they no we are selling them. We just try to make sure others have a chance to get the releases, when they are physically available and keep our shop interesting.

I think that the position is incredibly likely to get worse over the coming months and years, after all, how many new plants are opening up? Even if they do - and its a significant investment to set a plant up, where are the experienced staff, sound engineers etc required for a pressing plant. Its easy to open a vinyl broker and many have over the last few years with the boom in labels starting up, but the orders go to the same plants. With the major players also taking up order slots at plants for record days, Christmas and to fulfil the reissue LP market - I cannot see how it will get easier. 

all the best Mark n Des

The way things seem to be going it would appear additional pressing plant facilities are desperately required. Also the smaller limited run labels are likely to get even more squeezed when the Majors start to ramp up vinyl pressings.

Read somewhere that Adele and Ed Sheeran have booked all the major pressing plants to get their latest LPs pressed.

A shop on the Wirral is refusing to stock the LPs as they are stopping other artists getting their stuff pressed and out for sale.

Like Dave @ Soul Junction I don't normally post about things like this but like him I am one person trying to get 10 things done at the same time. Not complaining at all as it can be very rewarding as well.

It can be a "Catch 22" situation sometimes.

For me the first release I did was due to go on the pressing plant in the USA and being given a cast iron guarantee this was the case doing a pre-order was only going to be a couple of weeks and after giving out TP's for radio station plays etc. we were being pestered to put it up for pre order.

Unfortunately the other person I was doing the project with tragically took his own life due to personal issues which threw it all in to chaos for a while. The next couple were simply down to pressing plants giving you secure dates only to change the goal posts a couple of days before.

The "Catch 22" comes into play when you put out TP's Promo's or audio files for pre play on radio etc. The second people hear them they are on the phone and emailing you wanting to pre order the item. I don't want to put a pre order too early but at the same time don't want to lose any momentum gained from potential buyers.

I try now not to do much pre order too far in advance if at all in most cases now. The latest being shipped on a particular day and then taking 3-4 weeks to actually arrive.

Personally I buy a lot of the new releases and have no real issue either way regarding pre order, especially given the pressing plants being overwhelmed by work. It's a personal thing which is down to the individual I guess. Let's remember the "Big Boy's" Universal, Sony etc. have tapped into a market of people buying re-issue LP's and seem to be swamping lot's of plants with work, but I suppose it's business and is certainly not a complaint.

As far as Promo copies, I have them done to give to a list of people chance to play them on the radio etc. (which I really appreciate so thanks to those who do the work to promote these for me), as getting test pressings does nothing more than hold up production which is difficult already. I sell the remaining one's I have but have always made it quite clear when signing contracts for licensing and in paying publishing where applicable that I have them produced and pay any additional fees if asked or required.

I am an independent on my own and at this moment have a lot of licensing contracts signed and paid in advance of anything being produced, which is my choice of course and do my upmost to be as fair to everyone involved which includes the customer who ultimately buys them.

I am getting into a position that I can get some into my hands before sending out promos but It is a learning curve.

There is some great stuff coming out at the moment and all being inspired from people like Kent Records who let's face it are "The Daddy" when it comes to this kind of thing and of course Soul Junction etc.

I celebrate the fact that some great music is being given the exposure it deserves.