Evening!x It's been a while since I visited...covid...trips to Ukraine...blah blah...but...in between all that malarkey...I've DJ'd at several venues over the past 2 years....and i'm gobsmacked that the number 1 tune...in demand...TOP NORTHERN TRACK.....has been...Red Light Spells Danger.........???!!!!! WTF. 60+ year old women scream as it spins on the deck....like the Beatles are walking in. I didn't have it....but got a copy a few weeks back. I ain't spun it yet...not even at the Jubilee doo in Hull where I played lots of Northern........didn't even spin it when I had the decks for 5 hours live over the net to a group of music moguls gathering in London! But I played some Northern. Has the Northern Soul as I knew it....finished? I've never known that tune to be a Northern track....never got spun at my Youth Clubs....or even Keele in the 90's??? Anyway...I blamed John from Cambridge when DJing at the Sandcastle in Skeggy....said that he'd borrowed my copy for his gigs end and he hadn't returned it!! That got me off a lynching!!x So the ladies still loved me and we went into the night moaning about the other DJs....as you do!x Am I being rash? Disco is disco...init?x Funk for me from that era...for dancing x Is this....an anti Red Light district.......?...........you're my last hope!x Of Course i'll play it....at a slippers soul doo...like the Snake...and Out on the Floor....but.....you know......sigh.

LUV
SOOTY
X

Edited July 21, 20222 yr by Sooty

the bottom line for me is simply that i dont want to go to a 'proper soul night' and hear a tune that is played virtually every day on mainstream radio (RLSD),  IOHWILAY isn't and I think I only heard it played by anyone else once in last 10 years.

 

4 hours ago, Chalky said:

There is no doubt, Billy can do soul just like Jackie can do pop as both have shown in their careers. Who would have done the better version of the songs you mention? Guess we’ll ever know for sure.  
 

Lyrically, Haunted House and It Only Happens (lightweight it might be) are miles away from RLSD. Red Light quite cheesy in parts lyrically but it is a great pop record.  I guess it is ultimately the delivery that decides what the are and of course by whom, the example of Michael Ball bing a very good example. I guess as well the market it was aimed at also plays a part. 
 

Whilst the writers of IOHWILAY were described as white and british and pop by @Tobytykeit does do them a bit of a disservice as the fact is they were heavily involved in 70s soul in the UK with their writing for various soul acts and quite rightly recognised as such. 
 

the market a record is aimed at and the success a record achieves also play a part.  RLSD was clearly aimed at the pop market and as we know hugely successful.  That alone makes it the very opposite of what records we look for.  The scene has always been elitist and pop records or should I say successful pop records were left to the normal clubbers, we were above all that preferring  rarity and exclusivity. 

I appreciate your comments Chalkie but nowhere in my post did I describe them as you say.

1 hour ago, Tobytyke said:

I appreciate your comments Chalkie but nowhere in my post did I describe them as you say.

Sorry mate, was trying to remember whilst writing, “British writers of pop music” is what I should have quoted. 

Billy Ocean,s Red Light spells danger sure as caused a bit of danger on this site, maybe it’s time for the red light to mean Stop, Stop this nonsense, I would hope that at least 99% of members of this site would know that RLSD is a full on pop tune with  a Soulful vocals from Billy and doesn’t pretend to or compare with the NS we all love if some of those don’t know I have no answer to that LoL,

Give Billy Ocean his dues for a good pop song

Give NS it’s dues for being NS

KR

ML

3 hours ago, Tobytyke said:

Then what about Jimmy James "A Man Like Me".Sold enough copies over the years as most pop number ones.

A fantastic record by a very soulful singer with a dance beat few can resist.Played at every youth club and working mens club disco in the country for the last50 years. Because of its popularity and easy accessibility does  this stop it from being a northern soul record.? Its confusing.

 

3 hours ago, Hooker1951 said:

RLSD is a full on pop tune with  a Soulful vocals from Billy and doesn’t pretend to or compare with the NS we all love if some of those don’t know I have no answer to that LoL

Oh, please! Every song ever played on the Northern Soul scene is a pop tune. No artist or group released a 45 in the decades the scene has so widely embraced - across so many genres - with the intention of it being “Northern Soul”. That’s just a hindsight label to describe a unique and localised youth movement, a cult even, that came after the music was recorded.

If it was recorded to cater for mainstream musical demand, for the hope of commercial/chart success, then it’s pop music (might I remind you “pop” is short for “popular”, and that “soul”, R&B”, “funk”, etc, come under this generic banner).

If Billy Ocean’s “Red light…” was not commercially successful, and was broken by a “respected” DJ soon after it’s release (like so many new releases were), then I think it would be up there with the MVPs “Turning my heartbeat up” and Frankie Valli’s “The night” - both of which are pure pop, but share that same irresistible dance beat feel with Mr Billy Ocean’s - I still think - rather excellent and heart-beat raising tune. 

13 minutes ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Oh, please! Every song ever played on the Northern Soul scene is a pop tune. No artist or group released a 45 in the decades the scene has so widely embraced - across so many genres - with the intention of it being “Northern Soul”. That’s just a hindsight label to describe a unique and localised youth movement, a cult even, that came after the music was recorded.

If it was recorded to cater for mainstream musical demand, for the hope of commercial/chart success, then it’s pop music (might I remind you “pop” is short for “popular”, and that “soul”, R&B”, “funk”, etc, come under this generic banner).

If Billy Ocean’s “Red light…” was not commercially successful, and was broken by a “respected” DJ soon after it’s release (like so many new releases were), then I think it would be up there with the MVPs “Turning my heartbeat up” and Frankie Valli’s “The night” - both of which are pure pop, but share that same irresistible dance beat feel with Mr Billy Ocean’s - I still think - rather excellent and heart-beat raising tune. 

Oh Please that’s your opinion not mine or a great number of people on here I trust , there will always be NS or RnB tune that becomes popular with the mainstream for everyone that did there is a thousand that didn’t and it is that what makes NS  different so to say every NS  played on the scene was a pop tune is frankly a load of bollocks, and just for the record I didn’t start listening to Soul music in youth clubs I started going to all-nighters back in 1965 aged 14 to listen to something different because it was different and exciting so I’m afraid your opinion falls on deaf ears with me, been there done it, jockey and a dancer and promoter. I can agree with you on Frankie Valli and MV P,s being pop music and a great many more but proper soul lovers know the real thing from the pop thing, Or at least I hope they do, LoL

KR

ML

Oh please

Do you really think say Gene Chandler walked into the studio and said

''OK guys lets make a Northern Soul tune today , not a pop tune " 

"We don't wanna be making any money " ?

Cheeze Paul

Edited July 28, 20222 yr by Soul Shrews
forgot something

1 hour ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Oh, please! Every song ever played on the Northern Soul scene is a pop tune. No artist or group released a 45 in the decades the scene has so widely embraced - across so many genres - with the intention of it being “Northern Soul”. That’s just a hindsight label to describe a unique and localised youth movement, a cult even, that came after the music was recorded.

If it was recorded to cater for mainstream musical demand, for the hope of commercial/chart success, then it’s pop music (might I remind you “pop” is short for “popular”, and that “soul”, R&B”, “funk”, etc, come under this generic banner).

 

THIS !      its all 'pop' music,   the only difference:-   some were commercially succesful,  some were'nt ....

37 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

Oh Please that’s your opinion not mine or a great number of people on here I trust , there will always be NS or RnB tune that becomes popular with the mainstream for everyone that did there is a thousand that didn’t and it is that what makes NS  different so to say every NS  played on the scene was a pop tune is frankly a load of bollocks, and just for the record I didn’t start listening to Soul music in youth clubs I started going to all-nighters back in 1965 aged 14 to listen to something different because it was different and exciting so I’m afraid your opinion falls on deaf ears with me, been there done it, jockey and a dancer and promoter. I can agree with you on Frankie Valli and MV P,s being pop music and a great many more but proper soul lovers know the real thing from the pop thing, Or at least I hope they do, LoL

KR

ML

You need to go back and learn about the early categorisations of music, particularly in the USA. If music was aimed at the mainstream - and young people in particular - and didn't fit the already defined pigeon holes of "big band (etc)", "classical", "spiritual", "race", etc, etc, etc, than it was "popular" music - pop. That's where the term comes from. 

Soul music, R&B, funk, etc, are merely - and always have been - sub-genres of pop. 

Some releases were “ labelled “ as race records…and as we now all know they were targeted at what was a “race record chart” before it became an R&B chart. 
 

so maybe ‘pop’ as in Popular was an unlikely target

Edited July 28, 20222 yr by Kenb

Just now, Kenb said:

Some releases were “ labelled “ as race records…and as we now all know they were targeted at what was a “race record chart” before it became an R&B chart. 

Exactly - OKEH?

18 minutes ago, Soul Shrews said:

Oh please

Do you really think say Gene Chandler walked into the studio and said

''OK guys lets make a Northern Soul tune today , not a pop tune " 

"We don't wanna be making any money " ?

Cheeze Paul

It’s because it didn’t become a popular tune that it stayed underground and became special to the ears of Soul music lovers who know a good tune rather than mainstream tunes isn’t that the whole reason we have had the NS scene because we are different with our choice of music and isn’t this what makes us different and a little special in our choice of a good tune rather than be like the masses or am I missing something LoL,

KR

ML

4 minutes ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Exactly - OKEH?

I think I was agreeing … but now I’m not so sure😉

I've seen many attempts at defining Northern Soul.

In its original definition it was 'a style of music they like up North' etc. I still think Godin was taking the piss, since he was a soul lover first and foremost.

So RLSD, and sung by Billie boy, will fit the bill to some but not to others, including me.

Anyway I'm not sure anything or anybody can add more to this topic...Nice that we are not all the same!

Ed

9 minutes ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

You need to go back and learn about the early categorisations of music, particularly in the USA. If music was aimed at the mainstream - and young people in particular - and didn't fit the already defined pigeon holes of "big band (etc)", "classical", "spiritual", "race", etc, etc, etc, than it was "popular" music - pop. That's where the term comes from. 

Soul music, R&B, funk, etc, are merely - and always have been - sub-genres of pop. 

Hi Russ

Ive studied Rock n Roll RnB , Soul, Dance all my life, Dj,d most of the big venues in the uk seen most of the biggest acts in the world done security for lots of them as well over here and in the USA, Mc,d at the biggest raves underground and clubs all over the uk parallel to me being involved in NS never stopped being hungry of knowledge of music so I’m afraid I don’t really have to back and learn anything about categorising music  I’ve lived  the life  and know what I know through doing it besides studying it after 57 experience with it I don’t think for one minute you could learn me anything that I am not aware off, you stick with your pop music I know what I like and it comes from the Soul

KR

ML

2 hours ago, Hooker1951 said:

Hi Russ

Ive studied Rock n Roll RnB , Soul, Dance all my life, Dj,d most of the big venues in the uk seen most of the biggest acts in the world done security for lots of them as well over here and in the USA, Mc,d at the biggest raves underground and clubs all over the uk parallel to me being involved in NS never stopped being hungry of knowledge of music so I’m afraid I don’t really have to back and learn anything about categorising music  I’ve lived  the life  and know what I know through doing it besides studying it after 57 experience with it I don’t think for one minute you could learn me anything that I am not aware off, you stick with your pop music I know what I like and it comes from the Soul

KR

ML

Quote

Pop music is a genre of popular music that originated in its modern form during the mid-1950s in the United States and the United Kingdom. The terms popular music and pop music are often used interchangeably, although the former describes all music that is popular and includes many disparate styles. During the 1950s and 1960s, pop music encompassed rock and roll and the youth-oriented styles it influenced.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music

There are better definitions out there than that offered by Wikipedia, but it serves to reinforce the point that all the music we embrace on this forum is pop music first - and soul/R&B, etc, second. Again, the music we celebrate and discuss here on Soul Source is pop music - its just those certain sub-genres of pop music we love. 

 

Edited July 28, 20222 yr by Amsterdam Russ
spelun

48 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

It’s because it didn’t become a popular tune that it stayed underground and became special to the ears of Soul music lovers who know a good tune rather than mainstream tunes isn’t that the whole reason we have had the NS scene because we are different with our choice of music and isn’t this what makes us different and a little special in our choice of a good tune rather than be like the masses or am I missing something LoL,

KR

ML

So a hopefully chart-bound pop tune becomes "Northern Soul" just because some people on drugs 1,000s of miles away decide so after "they" invent the term long after he recorded his tune? 

1 hour ago, Hooker1951 said:

Hi Russ

Ive studied Rock n Roll RnB , Soul, Dance all my life, Dj,d most of the big venues in the uk seen most of the biggest acts in the world done security for lots of them as well over here and in the USA, Mc,d at the biggest raves underground and clubs all over the uk parallel to me being involved in NS never stopped being hungry of knowledge of music so I’m afraid I don’t really have to back and learn anything about categorising music  I’ve lived  the life  and know what I know through doing it besides studying it after 57 experience with it I don’t think for one minute you could learn me anything that I am not aware off, you stick with your pop music I know what I like and it comes from the Soul

KR

ML

Please start a new thread with the life and times of hooker 51.

What really interests me is the 'birth' of Northern Soul.

I'm 60...so a mere youngster...but at 10 years old...1971/2 there was a youth club In Conisbrough called the disc, that we used to hang around and it seemed the place to be for teenagers. 2 regular played records resonated with me. JERRY WILLIAMS and JIMMY RADCLIFFE.

4 years later....they were coming back into my life at other youth clubs!

That period of 70 to 75 must have been incredible to have been there.

For sure I'd never disrespect those who were there, but in turn you must accept my 76 to 81 was just as special to me, and NL Russ 81 to 86?

Ed

 

Edited July 28, 20222 yr by Tomangoes
Spello

23 minutes ago, Tomangoes said:

Please start a new thread with the life and times of hooker 51.

No, I respect fully - and completely admire - hooker51's perspectives on music and their personal and long-lived experiences. In fact, hooker51 (sorry to talk about you in the detached 3rd-person) comes across as the sort of person I'd love to have a lengthy afternoon's drinking session with.

Different opinions on music - discuss. Different backgrounds in terms of youthful musical evolution - discuss. Different perspectives of what "Northern Soul" is based on age - discuss.

Give it a few pints and - I like to think - we'd probably find ourselves coming round full circle and agreeing with one another.

 

Selby Youth Club circa 1973/1974. Kal Eye Disco run by someone called Dipper from Knottingley I think. My older sister made sure I was there and I fell in love with ‘Samantha Jones - Surrounded By A Ray Of Sunshine’. This led her to ask Arthur and Ian who were big collectors to do me some cassette tapes. Not much pop on them and I would say that many were classic rare and very popular soul tunes over the next few years. I never looked back from there and still love all types of soul from 60’s to 22 releases.
I know this will get thousands of replies from soulies who were there disputing my memories……….or at least some very good table tennis players…..

Here we are again Happy as can be

All good friends and jolly good company

Have a great day everybody

KR

ML

9 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music

There are better definitions out there than that offered by Wikipedia, but it serves to reinforce the point that all the music we embrace on this forum is pop music first - and soul/R&B, etc, second. Again, the music we celebrate and discuss here on Soul Source is pop music - its just those certain sub-genres of pop music we love. 

 

I tend to disagree, many records are of a specific genre first and foremost, Jazz, Soul, R&B, County & Western and pop of course and it is simply sales that make them popular.  It doesn’t necessarily make a successful country record “pop”, it is still a country and western record. 

To term a record a "pop record" on the Northern/Rare soul scene is a derogatory term. It doesn't mean file under popular music! It means the tune is not good enough to be played and rated by any self respecting, established punter or collector!

But everyone has to start somewhere. So maybe easy poppy type venues need to exist as well as hard core all-nighters!

I didn't start Northern Soul on the Saturday night train to Wigan Casino allnighter. I used to go to a local disco and see these trendy in-people with there hold-all bags all lined up. Then watch a mass exodus about 10.30 for the train to Wigan. They will have though we were pop fans dancing to easy Motown and chart soul! But it was part of my start into my obsession with Northern Soul!

Edited July 29, 20222 yr by Solidsoul

There's a better definition of popular music, ie, pop music, on the Encyclopaedia Britannica website. The bit I'm quoting below is just the part that's directly relevant to this current discussion.

Quote

Rock and soul music (especially the sophisticated but hook-laden variety of the latter, which took its name from the company that created it, Motown) quickly attracted the allegiance of Western teenagers and eventually became the sound track for young people throughout the world. The history of pop into the 21st century has basically been that of rock and its variants, including disco, heavy metal, funk, punk, hip-hop, and increasingly pop-oriented world music.

https://www.britannica.com/art/popular-music 

Seem to be going round in circles now , I think everyone on here knows the difference between a bona fide Soul record and a pop soul record .

And pop music to me is something that falls in to no real category i.e Reggae, Punk C&W Soul , Blues etc just because a record makes the charts to me it does not make it a Pop record just a record that has sold well to make it popular.

 

 

Can you imagine RLSD being played at Lowton, Prestwich, Bury, Brighouse, Sheridans, Kingsway Hall. Eggborough. And many more, All Northern venues that are up north. NOPE me neither. North South divide maybe. 

12 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

So a hopefully chart-bound pop tune becomes "Northern Soul" just because some people on drugs 1,000s of miles away decide so after "they" invent the term long after he recorded his tune? 

Er yeah, exactly that.

Ok looking like its time to put this topic on hold as seems to have run its course...

 

The last 3 or so posts have been split off to a new topic

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/topic/431577-soulful-plays-and-more/?do=getNewComment