Dave Godin 444 label

[Julianb]

Hi everyone 

Just found these two letters from Dave. He was definitely going to issue Sam Nesbitt ( I did have some pre issue prints of the label but heavens know where they ended up). Maybe someone on here has them or knows where they are.

Second letter at the bottom eludes to the second  proposed issue as Sandi Sheldon!!!

Pity he never got round to it

Thank goodness I didn't bin these

[Wheelsville1]

1 hour ago, Julianb said:

Hi everyone 

Just found these two letters from Dave. He was definitely going to issue Sam Nesbitt ( I did have some pre issue prints of the label but heavens know where they ended up). Maybe someone on here has them or knows where they are.

Second letter at the bottom eludes to the second  proposed issue as Sandi Sheldon!!!

Pity he never got round to it

Thank goodness I didn't bin these

I see there is no mention of Chris Jackson.

[Julianb]

21 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

I see there is no mention of Chris Jackson.

Yes, interesting one this. Manship says acetate only and Record Collector only 2 know copies. The label, which I recall was white, black and orange ( not 100% on this) was designed by John Bollen originally from Skipton/Earby area ( he is pictured in Blues and Soul on the Dave visit to the Wheel along with Franny O'Brien and Lesley Brown from Huddersfield) I was obviously not photogenic enough to make the pages!!. Folklore is great but I cannot recall seeing it on vinyl, and I was in the 'know' at the time.

Happy hunting to find one.

[Wheelsville1]

24 minutes ago, Julianb said:

Yes, interesting one this. Manship says acetate only and Record Collector only 2 know copies. The label, which I recall was white, black and orange ( not 100% on this) was designed by John Bollen originally from Skipton/Earby area ( he is pictured in Blues and Soul on the Dave visit to the Wheel along with Franny O'Brien and Lesley Brown from Huddersfield) I was obviously not photogenic enough to make the pages!!. Folklore is great but I cannot recall seeing it on vinyl, and I was in the 'know' at the time.

Happy hunting to find one.

I have always questioned it's authenticity,i remember several years ago reading that Dave and Chris Jackson had fallen out.Is that correct?

[Simon T]

.

 

Edited April 5 by Simon T

[Wheelsville1]

13 minutes ago, Simon T said:

.

I didn't word it properly,i am aware of the acetate and have heard it on the net,what i meant to say is that several people over the years had claimed to have seen vinyl copies of the 444 release.

[Eddie Hubbard]

4 hours ago, Julianb said:

Hi everyone 

Just found these two letters from Dave. He was definitely going to issue Sam Nesbitt ( I did have some pre issue prints of the label but heavens know where they ended up). Maybe someone on here has them or knows where they are.

Second letter at the bottom eludes to the second  proposed issue as Sandi Sheldon!!!

Pity he never got round to it

Thank goodness I didn't bin these

I recall Dave telling how he sold all the import copies of Sam Nesbit ,not keeping one for himself as he was releasing it ,which of course didn’t happen.

[Simon T]

 

 

Edited April 5 by Simon T

[Simon T]

.

[Rick Cooper]

18 hours ago, Julianb said:

Hi everyone 

Just found these two letters from Dave. He was definitely going to issue Sam Nesbitt ( I did have some pre issue prints of the label but heavens know where they ended up). Maybe someone on here has them or knows where they are.

Second letter at the bottom eludes to the second  proposed issue as Sandi Sheldon!!!

Pity he never got round to it

Thank goodness I didn't bin these

Julian

There's a half page advert in Blues and Soul announcing the launch of 444 Records, which I put on a thread about the label round about ten years ago but can't find it now.

The label design on the ad had a sort of art deco look to it. I think it listed Sam Nesbit as the first release but not sure it mentioned further titles and certainly not Chris Jackson- Since There's No Doubt. I'll try to find the issue with it in and post it again.

[Mike]

10 minutes ago, Rick Cooper said:

Julian

There's a half page advert in Blues and Soul announcing the launch of 444 Records, which I put on a thread about the label round about ten years ago but can't find it now.

The label design on the ad had a sort of art deco look to it. I think it listed Sam Nesbit as the first release but not sure it mentioned further titles and certainly not Chris Jackson- Since There's No Doubt. I'll try to find the issue with it in and post it again.

Rick and others

 

If you tap your member name in the top left corner of the page

you get a drop down menu which has a choice 'my attachments'

tap that and you can then view pages of all the file uploads you have made over the years

may assist

 

[Simon T]

5 minutes ago, Mike said:

Rick and others

 

If you tap your member name in the top left corner of the page

you get a drop down menu which has a choice 'my attachments'

tap that and you can then view pages of all the file uploads you have made over the years

may assist

 

 

Edited April 4 by Simon T

[Julianb]

18 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

I have always questioned it's authenticity,i remember several years ago reading that Dave and Chris Jackson had fallen out.Is that correct?

Sorry, don't know. Maybe Frank Elson, Franny O'Brien or Ian Levine could help. Unfortunately one or two who may have known have sadly passed away.

[Goldsoul]

1 hour ago, Julianb said:

Sorry, don't know. Maybe Frank Elson, Franny O'Brien or Ian Levine could help. Unfortunately one or two who may have known have sadly passed away.

Julian- Are we sure there is a ‘Chris Jackson’?

Regardless of the image of him, my moneys on Chris Bartley or Van McCoy. Both had strong falsetto voices. 
Soul Junction recently released one of my discoveries by Van- April/Blackwood acetate. 
Unless someone categorically prove there is a ‘CJ’………I go with CB or VM as the recorders of ‘Since There’s No Doubt’

[Woodbutcher]

1 hour ago, Goldsoul said:

Julian- Are we sure there is a ‘Chris Jackson’?

Regardless of the image of him, my moneys on Chris Bartley or Van McCoy. Both had strong falsetto voices. 
Soul Junction recently released one of my discoveries by Van- April/Blackwood acetate. 
Unless someone categorically prove there is a ‘CJ’………I go with CB or VM as the recorders of ‘Since There’s No Doubt’

 

[Simon T]

they all sound the same to me

Chris - marke - van

[Julianb]

20 hours ago, Eddie Hubbard said:

I recall Dave telling how he sold all the import copies of Sam Nesbit ,not keeping one for himself as he was releasing it ,which of course didn’t happen.

I must have got one from Dave. It wasn't really well known at the time and I swapped it to Martin Koppel on one of his trips to Blighty for a copy of Bob Relf which I sold to Keith Minshull that weekend for £20. Happy days

[Goldsoul]

1 hour ago, Simon T said:

they all sound the same to me

Chris - marke - van

I doubt there is a Chris Jackson. Bill Downes(RIP) was a friend of mine. He managed the Ad Libs, Chris Bartley and the Jelly Beans. 
He had never heard of Jackson. 
I agree…….they do sound similar. So, sticking one’s neck out……figure on Bartley or McCoy as Jackson. I thought that in 1975 and still do. 

[Souljer6]

I remember Sam Nesbit being played at an early UTJ, supposedly to be released on 444 the following week..

[Benji]

Just thinking out loud, would Van McCoy have been happy to see his recordings to be released under a different name in the UK back then? I don't think so. He was already a "major" name back then....

[Happy Feet]

39 minutes ago, Benji said:

Just thinking out loud, would Van McCoy have been happy to see his recordings to be released under a different name in the UK back then? I don't think so. He was already a "major" name back then....

Looking at the facts , 3 possible different names albeit with very close name changes , Chris B, . Chris J, Marke J, maybe he was working away from home , different studio or Pseydium, he wouldn't have been the 1st .

[Kenb]

There was definately "a Marke Jackson" gigging (short lived) in New Jersey in 1968, with Donna Lee (Clown Town on Columbia) & Others. 

[Blackpoolsoul]

47 minutes ago, Kenb said:

There was definately "a Marke Jackson" gigging (short lived) in New Jersey in 1968, with Donna Lee (Clown Town on Columbia) & Others. 

Well spotted could be

Edited April 5 by Blackpoolsoul

[Shinehead]

There were people on here a few years ago saying that Jerry Williams was the vocalist on "Forever I,ll Stay With You"

Edited April 5 by Shinehead

[Mickey Finn]

This is from Discogs, where it also says that Chris Jackson was an alias used by Marke.

https://www.discogs.com/artist/2158104-Marke-Jackson

Edited April 5 by Mickey Finn
Additional info

[Goldsoul]

37 minutes ago, Mickey Finn said:

This is from Discogs, where it also says that Chris Jackson was an alias used by Marke.

https://www.discogs.com/artist/2158104-Marke-Jackson

Yet Bill mentioned to me ‘he didn’t know who Jackson was. Could have easily been Van or Bartley on lead with a stooge brought in for a photo shoot. 
Bill at the time was arranging press/publicity for the ‘Fantastic Puzzles’……..i doubt they were the same group as the image, more Pat Adams and Greg Carmichael. 
Bill was a creative and talented guy.  
I still don’t believe the vocalist is ‘Chris/Marke Jackson on ‘I’ll Never Forget You. 
Chris Bartley lived near me in New Jersey in 1981 and continually mentioned the amount of sessions he did for Van and others. 

[Wheelsville1]

18 minutes ago, Goldsoul said:

Yet Bill mentioned to me ‘he didn’t know who Jackson was. Could have easily been Van or Bartley on lead with a stooge brought in for a photo shoot. 
Bill at the time was arranging press/publicity for the ‘Fantastic Puzzles’……..i doubt they were the same group as the image, more Pat Adams and Greg Carmichael. 
Bill was a creative and talented guy.  
I still don’t believe the vocalist is ‘Chris/Marke Jackson on ‘I’ll Never Forget You. 
Chris Bartley lived near me in New Jersey in 1981 and continually mentioned the amount of sessions he did for Van and others. 

Defo room for thought.

[Mickey Finn]

20 minutes ago, Goldsoul said:

Yet Bill mentioned to me ‘he didn’t know who Jackson was. Could have easily been Van or Bartley on lead with a stooge brought in for a photo shoot. 
Bill at the time was arranging press/publicity for the ‘Fantastic Puzzles’……..i doubt they were the same group as the image, more Pat Adams and Greg Carmichael. 
Bill was a creative and talented guy.  
I still don’t believe the vocalist is ‘Chris/Marke Jackson on ‘I’ll Never Forget You. 
Chris Bartley lived near me in New Jersey in 1981 and continually mentioned the amount of sessions he did for Van and others. 

There's clearly a book in all this ...

Just to underline your point that the vocal could have been Van himself, here's Bobby Eli paying tribute to him in a post from Soulful Detroit in 2004:

 

Van was a great friend and colleague of mine.
I had the esteemed pleasure of playing on many of his productions in Philly and witnessing first hand his incredible virtuosity.
He was truly a gentleman and a scolar to the nth degree.

Just watching him work in the studio was a marvel to behold.
The way he stacked his own background vocals to make it sound as if it were different people with different timbres was pure magic.

Thats mostly him on Right on the tip of my tongue!
If I remember correctly the only other backing vocalist was Diane Destry.

Vinnie barrett and I have been to his home in DC and he was the gracious host.
One time it was a party for then mayor of DC, Walter Washington.
His passing was truly a shock to us all.
Van...RIP

https://soulfuldetroit.com/archives/6593/7298.html?1092991229

[Kesalocasoul]

I am having feelings of déjà vu with elements of this thread.

Here are the three articles in Blues and Soul about Chris Bartley (December 1968) and Chris Jackson (April and August 1970).   One has already been attached to this thread. 

Both appear to be real people! One a native New Yorker, the other from Detroit.

[Shinehead]

Chris Jackson sounds like a real person going by those articles unless someone knows better.

 

Edited April 5 by Shinehead

[Chalky]

There is plenty to suggest he is real including what Dave G said about him.  Nothing really to suggest otherwise.

[Shinehead]

34 minutes ago, Chalky said:

There is plenty to suggest he is real including what Dave G said about him.  Nothing really to suggest otherwise.

Totally agree but looking at a lot of posts above he apparently does not exist and was just a pseudonym for Van McCoy or Chis Bartley.

And also suggested in a previous topic Jerry Williams on the B side , maybe all this will be put to bed now.

Or is there another twist

Edited April 5 by Shinehead

[Kesalocasoul]

BMI lists 27 songs by Christopher Mark Jackson, including all of the songs mentioned in the article, and the BMI award-winning "You Little Trustmaker" by the Tymes (1974).

Meanwhile, in 1972 Chris Bartley was recording with the the Ray Alexander Technique "I Am In Love With You", "I Wonder Why", although I prefer "Taking The Long Way Home", with a different lead?

[Hooker1951]

After reading this thread, and I had to lay a bet on if Chris Jackson was real I would bet that he was

ML

[Philreeves]

I remember hearing the Chris Jackson record played to me by DG in the Soul City shop. I didn’t like it then or now. Chris Jackson sounds nothing like Chris Bartley (or Van McCoy) and DG was hurt that I didn’t like it (tough!) having previously sold me Chris Bartley’s album and the “I found a goodie’ 45 both of which I loved.

I am aware that people can’t distinguish between voices having seen the crazy situation where Donnie Elbert was credited with singing “So Soon” when in fact it was by Van McCoy. (Also not by Chris Bartley as was suggested elsewhere).

[Blackpoolsoul]

5 hours ago, Goldsoul said:

Yet Bill mentioned to me ‘he didn’t know who Jackson was. Could have easily been Van or Bartley on lead with a stooge brought in for a photo shoot. 
Bill at the time was arranging press/publicity for the ‘Fantastic Puzzles’……..i doubt they were the same group as the image, more Pat Adams and Greg Carmichael. 
Bill was a creative and talented guy.  
I still don’t believe the vocalist is ‘Chris/Marke Jackson on ‘I’ll Never Forget You. 
Chris Bartley lived near me in New Jersey in 1981 and continually mentioned the amount of sessions he did for Van and others. 

Spotted this quote Kev

"Chris Jackson came to us through a manager called Bill Barnes. Bill Barnes was a New York based manager that worked with a lot of Philadelphia acts. He was responsible for the Ad-Libs, he also worked with Van McCoy and that’s how we got connected to Chris Jackson. He came to London and that’s when we met him."

https://www.britishrecordshoparchive.org/shops/soul-city/

[David Meikle]

What a great link Blackpoolsoul. 

In particular, Craig Jamieson’s Soul City interview with David Nathan and the section on Dave Kapralik.

Edited April 5 by David Meikle

[Goldsoul]

4 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Spotted this quote Kev

"Chris Jackson came to us through a manager called Bill Barnes. Bill Barnes was a New York based manager that worked with a lot of Philadelphia acts. He was responsible for the Ad-Libs, he also worked with Van McCoy and that’s how we got connected to Chris Jackson. He came to London and that’s when we met him."

https://www.britishrecordshoparchive.org/shops/soul-city/

The article is flawed! Bill Downs he means not Barnes. As mentioned before Bill Downs was a friend of mine.   
 

[Happy Feet]

32 minutes ago, Goldsoul said:

The article is flawed! Bill Downs he means not Barnes. As mentioned before Bill Downs was a friend of mine.   
 

And we all know that even from the early days of Northern Soul , cover ups and misleading info went hand in hand , or am I being taken in again not sure , arse full of splinters on this one , ouch 

[Philreeves]

 Bill Downs it is. No mystery or underhand practice here. It sounds like a transcription

error which happens very frequently when transferring an interview from often

muffled tape recordings into print.

[Kesalocasoul]

There is also this Van McCoy article (Black Music, July 1975), interviewed by Tony Cummings (not NS's favourite scribe, if I remember correctly), which refers to both Chris Bartley and Mark (Chris) Jackson (end of column seven and column eight).

 

[Mickey Finn]

Many thanks for this. You have answered a question I posted on another thread some months ago about whatever happened to Joe Cobb - "Around '72 Joe Cobb decided he wanted to go off and learn piano ... and that's what he's still doing." That certainly seems to be the date when Cobb's name almost completely disappears from McCoy productions and compositions. Given Van's skill as a pianist he might not have had much need for another piano player.

[Wheelsville1]

I have just been listening to The Charmaines-Standing in the need of love which has Van McCoy on lead,both his voice and Chris Jacksons sound remarkably similar.

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Wheelsville1 said:

I have just been listening to The Charmaines-Standing in the need of love which has Van McCoy on lead,both his voice and Chris Jacksons sound remarkably similar.

It is Kendra Spottiswood (Sandi Sheldon) not Van.  That is what she said Cleethorpes.  I know Kev who found the acetate says it is Van?

[Eddie Hubbard]

I recall reading that Dave Godin and Chris Jackson had a row in the Soul City shop ,which resulted in the “ Since There’s No Doubt “ release being cancelled .Dave continued long into his life raving over the talents of Van McCoy and Chris Bartley ( even releasing “ I See Your Name on his Right On ! label ) I don’t think that would have happened if one of them had been a pseudonym for Jackson ?

[Goldsoul]

Eddie- Perfectly understandable theory due to B&S articles but Van McCoy was a man of mystery when recording and he taught Chris Bartley well. 
I’m not in any way trying to muddy waters, but I have spent time with Bill Downs(co-owner of Right On) and Chris Bartley. 
Returning to an earlier posting whereby I said ‘Downs didn’t know of a Marke Chris Jackson…….well I have an update……nether does Caesar Berry of the Tymes……he just messaged me. Now his memory(like all us) could be fading, but they had a Top 10 with ‘You Little Trustnaker’ and he doesn’t know him!

Clearly a matter of opinion, but it easy to divert attention to others when under contract. Ron Dunbar was also a friend and he happily took the plaudits for Freda Payne’s multi million seller , in contrast to the heavy rumors H-D-H wrote it. 
Dave Godin was a great journalist with an imagination who could easily have had to play along with whatever scenario he was faced with at the time.  Best if we keep an open mind and keep looking for clues

[Eddie Hubbard]

38 minutes ago, Goldsoul said:

Eddie- Perfectly understandable theory due to B&S articles but Van McCoy was a man of mystery when recording and he taught Chris Bartley well. 
I’m not in any way trying to muddy waters, but I have spent time with Bill Downs(co-owner of Right On) and Chris Bartley. 
Returning to an earlier posting whereby I said ‘Downs didn’t know of a Marke Chris Jackson…….well I have an update……nether does Caesar Berry of the Tymes……he just messaged me. Now his memory(like all us) could be fading, but they had a Top 10 with ‘You Little Trustnaker’ and he doesn’t know him!

Clearly a matter of opinion, but it easy to divert attention to others when under contract. Ron Dunbar was also a friend and he happily took the plaudits for Freda Payne’s multi million seller , in contrast to the heavy rumors H-D-H wrote it. 
Dave Godin was a great journalist with an imagination who could easily have had to play along with whatever scenario he was faced with at the time.  Best if we keep an open mind and keep looking for clues

Yes very interesting,it has to be said Kev ,who knows what happens behind the scenes of record company offices ?

[Kesalocasoul]

I said in my first post that I am having feelings of déjà vu with elements of this thread and it seems we have been over this ground at least four times before! 

Chris L;'s reply on 15 June 2012 (page 3 of Artists We Know Nothing About -below) seems most interesting.

 

 

 

[Wheelsville1]

3 hours ago, Chalky said:

It is Kendra Spottiswood (Sandi Sheldon) not Van.  That is what she said Cleethorpes.  I know Kev who found the acetate says it is Van?

I stand corrected on that Chalky.

[Shinehead]

Enough documentation for me to come to the conclusion that Chris Jackson is not Van Mccoy or Chris Bartley, as for the statement one of the Tymes did not know who Jackson was why would he ? he only wrote their hit. 

Edited April 9 by Shinehead