Seen it all now.... Original45s only my arse....

Ebay Link

Edited July 4, 201014 yr by Awake 502

If the buyer knew what a Carver was then no way would they have bid the amount it sold for, intentional or not this item did catch out and deceive the unwary.

An ambiguous listing at best, seller could describe it as an illegal bootleg that anyone can buy for 20 quid.... which is what the item is...

Agree - The post by Dazdakin backs this up . If I hadn't have been comming on here for a fair while I wouldnt recognise what a carver was either ........................Not for one moment saying the seller did this to confuse or dupe the buyer , just saying the term 'carver' is not universally recognised

There is a difference though EMI's are old technology, and all the ones that I ever heard were absolutely crap sound quality. And, they deteriate very quickly.

The carver on the other hand, is very good quality sound, and will last for as long as a record if looked after.

If you play the soundfile, it's fantastic sound quality.

There is a difference though EMI's are old technology, and all the ones that I ever heard were absolutely crap sound quality. And, they deteriate very quickly.

The carver on the other hand, is very good quality sound, and will last for as long as a record if looked after.

If you play the soundfile, it's fantastic sound quality.

A boot is a boot . They serve the same pupose & if you think that a carver is worth over three hundred quid then I hope your the bloke who bought it

If the buyer knew what a Carver was then no way would they have bid the amount it sold for, intentional or not this item did catch out and deceive the unwary.

An ambiguous listing at best, seller could describe it as an illegal bootleg that anyone can buy for 20 quid.... which is what the item is...

Would there have been the same fuss if it had sold for 99p.....I don't think so!

Every day on ebay, 100s of blatant bootlegs in various guises are sold and hardly anyone gives a fo+k...

Its laughable but tragic!

If the buyer knew what a Carver was then no way would they have bid the amount it sold for, intentional or not this item did catch out and deceive the unwary.

An ambiguous listing at best, seller could describe it as an illegal bootleg that anyone can buy for 20 quid.... which is what the item is...

How do you know that?.Maybe the buyer thought it was an one off acetate,but didn't care enough to find out.

I always thought "carvers" were taken from rare originals by the records owner.Usually in very low numbers.Whereas a boot etc are there to flood the market so to speak, and deceive by being illegal,and by copying at times ,the label design.Which this carver is not.

Emi discs bitd were more costly than boots,but have no value now.Why's that?

Edited July 7, 201014 yr by KevH

How do you know that?.Maybe the buyer thought it was an one off acetate,but didn't care enough to find out.

I always thought "carvers" were taken from rare originals by the records owner.Usually in very low numbers.Whereas a boot etc are there to flood the market so to speak, and deceive by being illegal,and by copying at times ,the label design.Which this carver is not.

Emi discs bitd were more costly than boots,but have no value now.Why's that?

Supply and demand, no one wants EMI discs but they want boots.

A boot is a boot . They serve the same pupose & if you think that a carver is worth over three hundred quid then I hope your the bloke who bought it

Martin, I wasn't condoning this item. On the contrary I hate bootlegs of any kind. I was just making the distinction between EMI's [shite quality] & carvers [very good quality]

Also, this recording was obviously done from one of the original [very rare] 45's. so in turn must have been done with the owners permission. This works fine while the owner of the "cut" plays the game. But the new ebay owner can now cut as many as he or she likes......that's maybe why it went for so much money. As a business opportunity?

Phil.

How do you know that?.Maybe the buyer thought it was an one off acetate,but didn't care enough to find out.

I always thought "carvers" were taken from rare originals by the records owner.Usually in very low numbers.Whereas a boot etc are there to flood the market so to speak, and deceive by being illegal,and by copying at times ,the label design.Which this carver is not.

Emi discs bitd were more costly than boots,but have no value now.Why's that?

Because the tracks on the emidiscs were all bootlegged eventually and could be bought on a pressing for a quid.

How do you know that?.Maybe the buyer thought it was an one off acetate,but didn't care enough to find out.

I always thought "carvers" were taken from rare originals by the records owner.Usually in very low numbers.Whereas a boot etc are there to flood the market so to speak, and deceive by being illegal,and by copying at times ,the label design.Which this carver is not.

Emi discs bitd were more costly than boots,but have no value now.Why's that?

Have a look on their website, you can e-mail them an mp3 file and they will cut you a shiny new disc., You don't need the original or permission from the owner just a reasonable recording.

Stick a photoshopped label on the disc, give it an ambiguous description on Ebay and wait for the money to come rolling in......

BUYER BE AWARE THAT'S ALL I CAN SAY

BOOTS ARE A FACT OF LIFE

DON'T EFFECT VALUE OF ORIGINAL RARE RECORDS

IS A BOOT ANY DIFFERENT FROM A TRACK ON A CD YOU'VE HAD OFF YOUR MATE, AND IF YOU THINK IT IS WHY.

Also, this recording was obviously done from one of the original [very rare] 45's. so in turn must have been done with the owners permission. This works fine while the owner of the "cut" plays the game. But the new ebay owner can now cut as many as he or she likes......that's maybe why it went for so much money. As a business opportunity?

Phil.

Phil

Might be just a coincidence of course, but on listening to the intro of the eBay item, the intro is chopped off. To me this sounds like the IDENTICAL recording that was posted on here last year (ish) - so I don't think it is done directly from a 45, more like a DJ spot / mix with the talking / previous record fade cut off.

Cheers

Mick

Phil

Might be just a coincidence of course, but on listening to the intro of the eBay item, the intro is chopped off. To me this sounds like the IDENTICAL recording that was posted on here last year (ish) - so I don't think it is done directly from a 45, more like a DJ spot / mix with the talking / previous record fade cut off.

Cheers

Mick

It's from the tape of The Rocket which was recorded (secretly) to DAT. Might have been me who posted it up, dunno. Gave the cd away though.

That's fair enough.

But out of curiosity as I leapt to defend the sales post - if you'd been inclined to bid on this would the description as a carver have dettered you, or at least prompted

you to ask the seller what he mean't by this? Or would you have bid away regardless? Just curious.

- Kev.

as in the old adage.....a fool and his money are easily parted

Sorry I didn't notice that.....that's despicable, recording someones spot without their knowledge.

Sorry I didn't notice that.....that's despicable, recording someones spot without their knowledge.

Agreed

Sorry I didn't notice that.....that's despicable, recording someones spot without their knowledge.

It was when the original promoters of The Rocket had their venue scuppered by the rest of the London soulies, who then took over the venue, and the original promoters recorded all the dj sets as a kind of revenge and then gave them to friends.

Have a look on their website, you can e-mail them an mp3 file and they will cut you a shiny new disc., You don't need the original or permission from the owner just a reasonable recording.

Stick a photoshopped label on the disc, give it an ambiguous description on Ebay and wait for the money to come rolling in......

Sorry,who's website?.And just for my peace of mind,is it the selling/buying of carvers that's the problem?.Giving them away to select people/dj's to protect its rareity ,is that ok?.

It was when the original promoters of The Rocket had their venue scuppered by the rest of the London soulies, who then took over the venue, and the original promoters recorded all the dj sets as a kind of revenge and then gave them to friends.

Yes, recording anyones set is despicable, and going on to produce a carver from the recording is too.

But....that's a pretty big brush you're tarring "the rest of the London soulies" with Pete. I'm sure you mean "some other London soulies"

- Kev.

Sorry,who's website?.And just for my peace of mind,is it the selling/buying of carvers that's the problem?.Giving them away to select people/dj's to protect its rareity ,is that ok?.

https://www.vinylcarvers.com/

If the item had been described accurately it would have sold for maybe £20.00 max even though in reality "carvers" should not be allowed on Ebay.

Ebay of course are partly to blame as they don't seem to give a toss about people selling illegal bootlegs as long as they get their cut.

It would be interesting to read the buyers comments when he finds out what the disc actually is, if I had bought it thinking it was genuine I would be putting in a PayPal claim....

https://www.vinylcarvers.com/

If the item had been described accurately it would have sold for maybe £20.00 max even though in reality "carvers" should not be allowed on Ebay.

Ebay of course are partly to blame as they don't seem to give a toss about people selling illegal bootlegs as long as they get their cut.

It would be interesting to read the buyers comments when he finds out what the disc actually is, if I had bought it thinking it was genuine I would be putting in a PayPal claim....

With you now!!.Vinylcarvers.When you said "they" was reading in wrong context:thumbsup: .What will also be interesting if Phil's point about booting the carver come to fruition.Then they will be 20 quid each.

Yes, recording anyones set is despicable, and going on to produce a carver from the recording is too.

But....that's a pretty big brush you're tarring "the rest of the London soulies" with Pete. I'm sure you mean "some other London soulies"

- Kev.

Whatever - it's a long time ago now.

https://www.vinylcarvers.com/

If the item had been described accurately it would have sold for maybe £20.00 max even though in reality "carvers" should not be allowed on Ebay.

Ebay of course are partly to blame as they don't seem to give a toss about people selling illegal bootlegs as long as they get their cut.

It would be interesting to read the buyers comments when he finds out what the disc actually is, if I had bought it thinking it was genuine I would be putting in a PayPal claim....

I read it and straight away knew what it was, the description was not misleading at all, I was just amazed at the price it was at. Tough shit if people can't read properly.

Would there have been the same fuss if it had sold for 99p.....I don't think so!

Every day on ebay, 100s of blatant bootlegs in various guises are sold and hardly anyone gives a fo+k...

Its laughable but tragic!

Have to say that the only thing that 'may' have misled is the label on the carver i.e. 'amy - mala test pressing'

But if the bidders are spending that kind of money surely they should do their homework and link up the dots as the description clearly states 'carver'

And tbh, having bought from the seller before and read his descriptions, they are consistently accurate in identifying a pressing as a reissue or 'not original'

It seems the price paid is the real issue as many sellers do not describe accurately. It's buyer beware and nobody's twisting anybody's arm to pay over the odds for anything.

But it's a bit unfair to harp on about an item fairly described from a seller that is genuine and provides consistently accurate identification.

Regards

Greg.

How about somebody putting a scan up or sending me any details on the recording's owners and then it can have a proper well documented release on CD and vinyl with the records history fully explained and some handy spin offs to the people who actually made the music. Just like the recent Salt and Pepper release?

Pete S your still full of poo on the Rocket, it failed because they couldn't sustain it. It wasn't "taken over" until much later and wasn't the same room, a much smaller one downstairs was used.

How about somebody putting a scan up or sending me any details on the recording's owners and then it can have a proper well documented release on CD and vinyl with the records history fully explained and some handy spin offs to the people who actually made the music. Just like the recent Salt and Pepper release?

Whilst I think eventually this would be a fine idea, it hasnt reached any where near its full potential yet.......I know, I know........Andy, Butch etc have played it for years, but lets give people a chance to catch up before its re - released, they'll be other collectors, dealers, DJ's hot on the trail, so a few fresh copies wouldnt go amiss before its killed as a 'play' record.

Also anyone with a a 'spare', I'd sell a kidney for one in any playable condition .

Best Russ

Edited July 7, 201014 yr by Russ Vickers

If someone had just registered on here and tried to sell a 'carver' for more than 99p he would have been ripped to bits,probably by the same people kiss-arseing and making excuses for bootleg sellers/selling. Give your heads a collective shake.

most honest post in this thread

Was it released on the same OP-ART label as The Luv-Lites?

The scan below is 1001/1002. Tiaras seems to be 1003 (or is that perhaps 1003/1004?).

Edited July 7, 201014 yr by Sebastian

most honest post in this thread

Item was posted as a carver.Its not a bootleg.Honesty?.The guy's being ripped to shreds on here.!!

If you want honesty,then broach the subject of carvers being played in the name of rareity.Or is that off limits?

How about somebody putting a scan up or sending me any details on the recording's owners and then it can have a proper well documented release on CD and vinyl with the records history fully explained and some handy spin offs to the people who actually made the music. Just like the recent Salt and Pepper release?

ady, take a photo of butch's copy. he's been playing both sides for years at 100.

i think that the label of the carver threw people off. I thought it looked like an acetate as most carvers are usually plain white labels like the ones vinyl carvers did. I initially bid a lot on the record as I thought it was an acetate as I got confused with the term 'carver', so I asked the seller to clarify and he did, but I think somebody got as confused as I initially did.

in this respect though I could easily make a carver of, let's say, butch's Jean Carter cover-up and sell that on ebay, but that would be wrong, don't you all think?

i think that the label of the carver threw people off. I thought it looked like an acetate as most carvers are usually plain white labels like the ones vinyl carvers did. I initially bid a lot on the record as I thought it was an acetate as I got confused with the term 'carver', so I asked the seller to clarify and he did, but I think somebody got as confused as I initially did.

in this respect though I could easily make a carver of, let's say, butch's Jean Carter cover-up and sell that on ebay, but that would be wrong, don't you all think?

something rather surreal seems to be happening because the soul police are usually tramplling all over the place with things like this - but i think they may have taken a vacation judging by the lack of hysteria that normally comes to pass over such matters

Item was posted as a carver.Its not a bootleg.Honesty?.The guy's being ripped to shreds on here.!!

If you want honesty,then broach the subject of carvers being played in the name of rareity.Or is that off limits?

It is a bootleg. It's been cut without the permission of the legal owners and sold.

Secondly carvers being played. If you wanna cut an unreleased track off a CD and play it there's no problem. You could play it off the CD but for whatever reason you wanna play it off disc. Ady is on here. I don't think he'd disagree IF you had bought the CD in question. It is just for personal use and not for resale.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but this 'Carver' was part of some one elses collection, that as a favour the seller was selling on thier behalf, along with a load of other bits.

If this had been done specifically to deceive or purely for profit then I would be a bit more vocal as to the morals, but from what I can gather the seller is as suprised as anyone as to the end price ?.

I appreciate that a 'bootleg' is a 'bootleg' regardless & maybe the seller should have been more aware of what they were doing, but I dont think there was any 'intent' what so ever.

Russ

Edited July 7, 201014 yr by Russ Vickers

i agree with everyone; even those disagreeing with each other i agree with... :-)

but i will say that this record is not your, (heard at) mainstream soul nite record and is in the hands of only a (lucky!) few...The buyer knew what he was getting IMO (you dont spend that much without at least minimal research!!); and afterall someone did pay £400 for a carver of Tommy & The Derbys when it was covered up (mind you they got scans of the label too so gotta be woth that bit more LOL)

It is a bootleg. It's been cut without the permission of the legal owners and sold.

Secondly carvers being played. If you wanna cut an unreleased track off a CD and play it there's no problem. You could play it off the CD but for whatever reason you wanna play it off disc. Ady is on here. I don't think he'd disagree IF you had bought the CD in question. It is just for personal use and not for resale.

I agree with you Rod about cd's but not many venues have a cd player. can't see the point in spending £20 on something that isn't released and can be played off cd, might as well spend the £20 on another record.

Pete S your still full of poo on the Rocket, it failed because they couldn't sustain it. It wasn't "taken over" until much later and wasn't the same room, a much smaller one downstairs was used.

Sorry Ady, I forgot, there of course was NO campaign against Ian levine and the Rocket masterminded by The Dome. I made it all up.

Mmm i tend to agree with most of what the above is trying to say, but me thinks £20 is a little on the cheap side and i also remember a 70's AWAKE boot of "I'm Gone" recently selling for £200+ and it was listed as a boot leg.

It's like anything in life, it's worth whatever an individual is prepared to pay for it so long as the person has all the correct facts.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but this 'Carver' was part of some one elses collection, that as a favour the seller was selling on thier behalf, along with a load of other bits.

If this had been done specifically to deceive or purely for profit then I would be a bit more vocal as to the morals, but from what I can gather the seller is as suprised as anyone as to the end price ?.

I appreciate that a 'bootleg' is a 'bootleg' regardless & maybe the seller should have been more aware of what they were doing, but I dont think there was any 'intent' what so ever.

Russ

not understanding what you are saying Russ are you saying that he was selling it for a mate and was not hoping to get any profit for said mate; therefore the selling of this bootleg was ok as he only got profit by pure accident?

if you had looked at the guys other sales before this thread started there were bootlegs being advertised as originals on there also.

you thinking there was no intent is pure assumption on your part (i am not saying there was intent just stating facts)

i peronally dont care that the guy sold it for that price, good luck to him. what i do find surprising is the back up he seems to be getting on these forums when, as someone else stated, if it had been someone who was not known they would have been slaughtered

I read it and straight away knew what it was, the description was not misleading at all, I was just amazed at the price it was at. Tough shit if people can't read properly.

Yep I agree with this Pete, clearly said it was a carver. If some idiot wants to shell out silly money for a £10 carver please get in touch and I'll get some cut

Agreed

:(Quite possibly the sadest thing i've seen on here , yeah that hookin up to the decks thing is outrageous, last guy i heard do it had the nerve to play accetates/dubs/boots/carvers or whatever the hell else you wanna call em on a london radio show passing them off to an over exuberant host, you got to larf! , however my experiance on carvers ( on totaly unreleased items ) is that they don;t give the depth of sound that a good old metal plate does., Arthur.

Edited July 7, 201014 yr by Arthur Fenn

:(Quite possibly the sadest thing i've seen on here , yeah that hookin up to the decks thing is outrageous, last guy i heard do it had the nerve to play accetates/dubs/boots/carvers or whatever the hell else you wanna call em on a london radio show passing them off to an over exuberant host, you got to larf! , however my experiance on carvers ( on totaly unreleased items ) is tat they don;t give the depth of sound that a good old metal plate does., Arthur.

carvers are the only way of getting an unissued track out there and to be honest it's been no different over the years, used to be emi-discs. However if you want better quality Arthur mate go to Timmion, they do metal acetates far better quality, about 25 euros for two sides.

Anyway are carvers technically just dub plates? Just the name of one of the companies that does them seems to have stuck.

It is a bootleg. It's been cut without the permission of the legal owners and sold.

Secondly carvers being played. If you wanna cut an unreleased track off a CD and play it there's no problem. You could play it off the CD but for whatever reason you wanna play it off disc. Ady is on here. I don't think he'd disagree IF you had bought the CD in question. It is just for personal use and not for resale.

I use the term bootleg in the context of a business venture like bitd.You are right, they are cut without permission.Always thought of carvers as more of a "demo" of a rareity,passed on to very few people.

carvers are the only way of getting an unissued track out there and to be honest it's been no different over the years, used to be emi-discs. However if you want better quality Arthur mate go to Timmion, they do metal acetates far better quality, about 25 euros for two sides.

Anyway are carvers technically just dub plates? Just the name of one of the companies that does them seems to have stuck.

Always thought they were called carvers because they were carved rather than pressed?

This is a carver to me:

A pressed one would be a test pressing wouldn't it?

And here's how they do it at Timmion:

Always thought they were called carvers because they were carved rather than pressed?

This is a carver to me:

A pressed one would be a test pressing wouldn't it?

they are carved, but sure vinyl carvers call them dub plates? Will have to check.

Me and a mate nearly bought one of these when they first came out. Wish we had, we'd be millionaires now

carvers are the only way of getting an unissued track out there and to be honest it's been no different over the years, used to be emi-discs. However if you want better quality Arthur mate go to Timmion, they do metal acetates far better quality, about 25 euros for two sides.

Anyway are carvers technically just dub plates? Just the name of one of the companies that does them seems to have stuck.

Trouble is, dub plate was the name given to an acetate by Jamaican sound systems, so dub plates are in fact Emidiscs. Well acetates anyway. Or rather they were, before 'carvers' came along. I used to get all my old acetates cut at Jah Tubbys Studio (JTS)

Trouble is, dub plate was the name given to an acetate by Jamaican sound systems, so dub plates are in fact Emidiscs. Well acetates anyway. Or rather they were, before 'carvers' came along. I used to get all my old acetates cut at Jah Tubbys Studio (JTS)

suppose carvers just a modern day equivalent Pete

The bottom line with this scenario is,the blatant cheating aspect.I remember phil k (hope you're well mate ) telling me someone he knew had found a single sided original of the suprise side which this guy had been playing out.. of course it never came out in that format ! As far as i'm aware only one person has ever found this 45,he is in touch with the chap who's credits are on the 45 (he didn't have any) it does have a nice story with it -mind you better not write it someone may boot it ...ah it was originally a promo for a lollipop/sweet ! there is some other related 45's which are very good under the same name and other names one of which is still covered and is a corker..

This is from the taping without permission and distributing c/d copies to cutting is what is destroying the very fabric of the cutting edge side of the scene,it basically stinks..no need to travel to events when the events are being taped in pristine sound quality !

Just my ten pence worth:

Spots have always been taped, that's why we have sound bites from the Casino etc.

Boots have been part of the scene since day one.

Artists don't get a penny off an original that sells on ebay anymore than they do from a boot.

Do you buy legal UK/Import releases if the answers yes good on you then maybe the artists actually gets a return from these sales.

Quite often the artist got this full payment when the recording was done, and actually the people who lose out to boots are the writers/producers/arrangers/label owners and not the singers.

Remember it was a day job and it lots of instances they were happy to take the daily rate.

Before anybody gets on there high horse, I've always bought new imports/Uk releases so I feel I've done my bit can everybody on here state they done theres, remember buying originals years after the events the only person who gains is the seller, and not anybody who was involved with the original recording.