60S Small Hole 45S - What's The Deal

[boba]

So the other day in a thread there was a mack iv record that came with both a small hole (like an LP) and a large hole (regular 45 side). Why would it be pressed both ways? Why would it be pressed with the small hole at all? Is it just a manufacturing mistake?

That was the only record I had seen like this, but i just saw this:

https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320797250961#ht_1078wt_881

I have this record with a regular large hole. Can anyone explain what is happening with the small hole 45s? thanks in advance.

[Nick Soule]

I think I remember reading that one of the Flowers records on LAX has a small hole pressing... could be wrong. Most EPs from the 60's have small holes too, I think.

[Kris Holmes]

_{some juke boxes took small hole 45s, maybe they were catering for that market by doing micro runs without the centre hole punched out, could also be a screw up where the presseing plant shipped off some runs without punching the centre hole out. as stated, the EPs of the time (mini LPs/Stereo 33rpm singles) etc. had small holes but I think the speed difference would negate these normal 45s trying to fit in with those.}

[boba]

_{some juke boxes took small hole 45s, maybe they were catering for that market by doing micro runs without the centre hole punched out, could also be a screw up where the presseing plant shipped off some runs without punching the centre hole out. as stated, the EPs of the time (mini LPs/Stereo 33rpm singles) etc. had small holes but I think the speed difference would negate these normal 45s trying to fit in with those.}

it would be weird if it was an intended, functional thing just because it's so rare and random as to which titles get it

[Denbo]

So the other day in a thread there was a mack iv record that came with both a small hole (like an LP) and a large hole (regular 45 side). Why would it be pressed both ways? Why would it be pressed with the small hole at all? Is it just a manufacturing mistake?

That was the only record I had seen like this, but i just saw this:

https://cgi.ebay.com/...1#ht_1078wt_881

I have this record with a regular large hole. Can anyone explain what is happening with the small hole 45s? thanks in advance.

Thanks boba, for taking up the challenge of resolving one of record collecting's mysteries.

Ady Croasdell thinks it's just a pressing error. I'm inclined to agree with him.

I've only ever seen this happen with vinyl. I've never seen a styrene record with a small hole. There would be a lot less cracked styrene records if the hole was small don't you think?

[Guest t.o.t.s.s.c]

its a great topic i have often wondered about,not a soul record but i have a record by CALLUM BRYCE callad lovemaker on CONDOR its got a small hole but all others i have seen have the pronged centre.would it make it a second press or rarer first press or pressed at the same time with a different company/plant.its a record i would have thought was just a small run with demos having pronged centres.

[George G]

I bought this record, mainly because the labels will stay on it and it's in nice shape. I can always use clean copies of this record, it's a good two sider. The group was from Cleveland and performed in blonde wigs similar to the powered wigs associated with US Colonial statesmen. This is simply a case of the large hole not being punched. Had their been some intent on making this the finished product, the lines on on the label would have continued all the way and the unused space would have text. The hole punching is done after the record pressing. I don't get hung on on the error as a collector gimmick for older 45s. I suppose in the 1970s when disco started to influence the market there may have been more 7" records with a small hole, as I presume DJs preferred that all records have the same hole size.

In the US, 7" EPs almost always have a small hole. Some 7" ad records (movie ads, LP ads) also have a small hole.

[Ernie Andrews]

Thanks boba, for taking up the challenge of resolving one of record collecting's mysteries.

Ady Croasdell thinks it's just a pressing error. I'm inclined to agree with him.

I've only ever seen this happen with vinyl. I've never seen a styrene record with a small hole. There would be a lot less cracked styrene records if the hole was small don't you think?

I have A styrene one on Epic

Its a 6 track EP called Heads up - with a rare version of Temptations about to get me by -Susan Carter

Also has tracks by Shuguggie Otis / Redbone /Jam factory/ Catfish & Argent

Edited November 26, 2011 by Ernie Andrews

[Pete S]

Thanks boba, for taking up the challenge of resolving one of record collecting's mysteries.

Ady Croasdell thinks it's just a pressing error. I'm inclined to agree with him.

I've only ever seen this happen with vinyl. I've never seen a styrene record with a small hole. There would be a lot less cracked styrene records if the hole was small don't you think?

I've seen full centre styrene records, but here in the UK, late 70's things like Blondie 45's, maybe they imported them because stocks were low in the UK.

[Ernie Andrews]

Yes Pete I remember the Blondie ones and lots of other pop records Especially on the Chrysalis label!

You could be right about stocks low!

[Pete S]

Yes Pete I remember the Blondie ones and lots of other pop records Especially on the Chrysalis label!

You could be right about stocks low!

Also I think Funkytown by Lipps Inc was styrene in the UK

[Ernie Andrews]

I had one of the Human league like that as well which was weird as I think that was on Virgin which would back up your theory Pete of low stocks

I know I had UFO - Doctor Doctor on styrene with the small hole

Also had one by Funkaldelic the same - That was on Warner Bros

God this is taking me back!

[Denbo]

its a great topic i have often wondered about,not a soul record but i have a record by CALLUM BRYCE callad lovemaker on CONDOR its got a small hole but all others i have seen have the pronged centre.would it make it a second press or rarer first press or pressed at the same time with a different company/plant.its a record i would have thought was just a small run with demos having pronged centres.

What's this worth these days?

The one I had was a Demo and it too had a small hole. But didn't they all?

What do you mean by a pronged centre? One that you can take out and put back in again?

[Sebastian]

I've only ever seen this happen with vinyl. I've never seen a styrene record with a small hole.

Here's a strange one that I've got. King Coleman's "Black Bottom Blues" is usually seen with a big hole, but my copy has got a small centre and is pressed on styrene.

[Guest t.o.t.s.s.c]

Thanks boba, for taking up the challenge of resolving one of record collecting's mysteries.

Ady Croasdell thinks it's just a pressing error. I'm inclined to agree with him.

I've only ever seen this happen with vinyl. I've never seen a styrene record with a small hole. There would be a lot less cracked styrene records if the hole was small don't you think?

https://www.popsike.com/Calum-Bryce-LOVEMAKER-UK-orig-Conder-1968-45/380098204000.html

this is a four pronged centre. mine is solid small hole

[Guest t.o.t.s.s.c]

What's this worth these days?

The one I had was a Demo and it too had a small hole. But didn't they all?

What do you mean by a pronged centre? One that you can take out and put back in again?

https://www.popsike.c...0098204000.html

this is a 4 pronged centre mine is solid small hole

https://www.popsike.c...0322436700.html

same record solid centre

https://www.popsike.com/CALUM-BRYCE-LoveMaker-demo-ultra-rare-Psych-Freakbeat/150179403774.html

demo with 4 pronged centre.

if you are right denbo there are demos and issues with pronged and solid centres

Edited November 26, 2011 by t.o.t.s.s.c

[Denbo]

Now I've seen those on Popsike, I can say for defo mine was pronged.

A Minter cost me 10p in Liverpool and sold for £500.

[Mick Holdsworth]

There's been quite a few soul (and other) releases with small holes.

Frankie Crocker / Sandy Waddy (red SOS) / Eddie Regan (demo) / Gwen Owens (Casablanca) / Schatz / one of the Moments' Stang releases / Cornelius Bros (Too Late) / .. loads more.

I used to collect oddities like this in the late 70's / early 80's - At the time, we all thought they were New York releases.

Cheers

Mick

[boba]

so you're saying that it was an error where the whole punching didn't occur? Does this mean there's a whole batch of them like this?

I have a sick photo of this group wearing the white wigs. Didn't they evolve into the hesitations?

[Kris Holmes]

its a great topic i have often wondered about,not a soul record but i have a record by CALLUM BRYCE callad lovemaker on CONDOR its got a small hole but all others i have seen have the pronged centre.would it make it a second press or rarer first press or pressed at the same time with a different company/plant.its a record i would have thought was just a small run with demos having pronged centres.

this is a UK 45 though right? it's not unusual to have pronged & solid centres on UK titles, there's loads of them with those variations. The US small vs large hole variance is infinitely stranger.

[sostenuto]

There's been quite a few soul (and other) releases with small holes.

Frankie Crocker / Sandy Waddy (red SOS) / Eddie Regan (demo) / Gwen Owens (Casablanca) / Schatz / one of the Moments' Stang releases / Cornelius Bros (Too Late) / .. loads more.

I used to collect oddities like this in the late 70's / early 80's - At the time, we all thought they were New York releases.

Cheers

Mick

Like you Mick, I used to pick up the oddities, especially the small hole 45s; I have: frankie beverley-if thats what you wanted-gamble, frankie crocker-turbo, precisions-if this is love, florence devore-kiss me now, shelley fisher-dalya, keith curtiss-smoke.

[Mick Holdsworth]

Frank Beverly sounds nice

[Ady Potts]

Here's a weird one, The Third Guitar...

[Denbo]

So, it would appear that there are plenty of US labelled 45s out there with small holes, vinyl and styrene. But how come and why?

We already know that the US labelled Eps had small holes compared to the large holes on the singles. But again, how come and why?

Was it the case then that there were some Jukeboxes that catered for large holes and others for small holes?

Was it a regional thing? East coast versus west coast?

The plot thickens.

[Guest turntableterra]

There's been quite a few soul (and other) releases with small holes.

Frankie Crocker / Sandy Waddy (red SOS) / Eddie Regan (demo) / Gwen Owens (Casablanca) / Schatz / one of the Moments' Stang releases / Cornelius Bros (Too Late) / .. loads more.

I used to collect oddities like this in the late 70's / early 80's - At the time, we all thought they were New York releases.

Cheers

Mick

the gwen owens, too much love makin, is aussie only. hence small hole. the cornelius bros is also available on aussie UA. the moments nine times on phillips can also be found on aussie too. surley there must be someone out there in the states who worked in these places who would actually know these answers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! some nice rare items beging flashed up.

[Mick Holdsworth]

the gwen owens, too much love makin, is aussie only. hence small hole. the cornelius bros is also available on aussie UA. the moments nine times on phillips can also be found on aussie too. surley there must be someone out there in the states who worked in these places who would actually know these answers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! some nice rare items beging flashed up.

Agreed, a lot of these records did come out in Australia and other countries on the same and different labels, but I think this thread was about USA label releases, identical to their standard large hole release, but with small hole.

The Gwen Owens I was on about was "You Better Watch Out", and the Moments was either Girls, girls, Girls or Look At Me, not on Philips, but US Stang.

Cheers

Mick

[boba]

Agreed, a lot of these records did come out in Australia and other countries on the same and different labels, but I think this thread was about USA label releases, identical to their standard large hole release, but with small hole.

The Gwen Owens I was on about was "You Better Watch Out", and the Moments was either Girls, girls, Girls or Look At Me, not on Philips, but US Stang.

Cheers

Mick

yes, this is what I was asking about. I guess my main questions are:

1. Was it intentional and if so, why?

2. Was it accidental and if so, what is the process that the records get "dinked" and why did certain records not have their centers removed.

[pikeys dog]

There are definately some US 45 issues with small holes that were produced intentionally - I have a Ray Charles that was unissued on a normal US 45, "One Mint Julep", that was manufactured for Jukebox use.

I have a personal theory that they were made for Export (South America, Philippines etc) for use on dansettes etc.

Edited November 27, 2011 by pikeys dog

[Kris Holmes]

Here's a weird one, The Third Guitar...

hold up, is this for real??

[boba]

hold up, is this for real??

also, it's weird that it says it's a DJ copy, as that makes it not look like it was made for jukeboxes

[Ady Potts]

hold up, is this for real??

Hi Kris,

Sure is. Vinyl is the same as the large hole press. How on earth it slipped through like this is beyond me. Looks kind of weird, doesn't it.

pottsy

[Guest sigher the gutter snype]

its a great topic i have often wondered about,not a soul record but i have a record by CALLUM BRYCE callad lovemaker on CONDOR its got a small hole but all others i have seen have the pronged centre.would it make it a second press or rarer first press or pressed at the same time with a different company/plant.its a record i would have thought was just a small run with demos having pronged centres.

great record that calum bryce....and very rare and sought after, spoke to howard condor the owner...he told me about 5 years ago he threw tons in the skip......ouch how many times have we heard that story????

[Tricky]

I have a George Wilson on Black Circle.

Looks great.

[Gene-R]

I've seen full centre styrene records, but here in the UK, late 70's things like Blondie 45's, maybe they imported them because stocks were low in the UK.

I thought about that as well. Wonder if, due to demand in the UK, pressings were specifically outsourced to overseas pressing plants to satisfy the demand in the UK? In the 70s, not only were there US issues abundant in the UK singles charts, but also Dutch and French pressings, which leads me to believe the 'outsourcing to meet the UK demand' theory.

[Guest]

I used to have "sweet tooth" Chubby whats-his-name ? with small hole.

Edited December 5, 2011 by ken

[Gene-R]

I used to have "sweet tooth" Chubby whats-his-name ? with small hole.

Larry 'Chubby' Reynolds on Tri-Spin.......

[Val (Chunky)]

here's another

[boba]

here's another

aren't all copies of that record small holed? People started doing that in the 70s for some records (not sure why). I was more asking about how regular big-holed 45s sometimes are found with the smaller hole.

[Val (Chunky)]

aren't all copies of that record small holed? People started doing that in the 70s for some records (not sure why). I was more asking about how regular big-holed 45s sometimes are found with the smaller hole.

yes you're right Bob, I missread

[boba]

yes you're right Bob, I missread

no problem, i appreciate you contributing

[Guest Shane]

Greetings from a guy from California who runs a little record shop (and sells a fair amount of soul 45s on ebay as well!).

I found it very interesting to see this topic, as I've been showing a few of my "expert" customers a handful of these small hole 45s from my collection, and nobody seems to know anything about them. I found these four records about ten years ago in a random box of 45s, and have never seen anything like them before or since. I guess this shows that Motown did at some point make these 45s, as well as a couple other labels as well:

Titles are:

Temptations- The Way You Do The Things You Do/Just Let Me know

Miracles- I Like It Like That/You're So Fine And Sweet

Soul Sisters- I Can't Stand It/Blueberry Hill

Betty Everett- The Shoop Shoop Song/Hands Off

Each one is a standard US pressing on styrene, completely normal except for the small hole.

[boba]

Greetings from a guy from California who runs a little record shop (and sells a fair amount of soul 45s on ebay as well!).

I found it very interesting to see this topic, as I've been showing a few of my "expert" customers a handful of these small hole 45s from my collection, and nobody seems to know anything about them. I found these four records about ten years ago in a random box of 45s, and have never seen anything like them before or since. I guess this shows that Motown did at some point make these 45s, as well as a couple other labels as well:

Titles are:

Temptations- The Way You Do The Things You Do/Just Let Me know

Miracles- I Like It Like That/You're So Fine And Sweet

Soul Sisters- I Can't Stand It/Blueberry Hill

Betty Everett- The Shoop Shoop Song/Hands Off

Each one is a standard US pressing on styrene, completely normal except for the small hole.

weird, cool photo, thanks. i wonder why this is such a mystery?