Reason I ask, a mate has picked up an extremely clean copy in a batch of otherwise run-of-the-mill titles.

 

Looks too good to be true?  I'm not aware of any boot of this unless something has dribbled out recently?

 

Well, there is a link between Sandy Golden and Ray Agee. If you're deaf you can hear similiarities in the backing and the vocals.

Well, there is a link between Sandy Golden and Ray Agee. If you're deaf you can hear similiarities in the backing and the vocals.

 

A few links I'd say.......

 

 

Ian D 

A few links I'd say.......

 

 

Ian D 

 

oh no, stop it Ian...not another one LoL !

oh no, stop it Ian...not another one LoL !

 

I haven't finished yet mate. I presume this was the original and the one above was knocked out with the Sandy Goldens and the Soussan jobs......

 

 

 

Ian D 

I don't think Soussan was involved with this actually. It's his modus-operandi but, musically, not his type of bootleg at all. The connection is the label designer and pressing plant which is the same operation that was used for the early Soultown boots which were via Bobby Sanders and Simon Soussan until they fell out. So my theory is that Nate Fortier and/or Bobby Sanders thought they could replicate the Soussan operation, chucked the Sandy Golden into the pot but didn't understand how to exploit the track and failed dismally before moving onto other things.

 

So, just to be 100% clear, I'm saying that it's a late 70's/early 80's pressing designed to appeal to the Northern scene but probably not a bootleg but rather a stab at a market with a track that they had in the can aimed for a scene that they knew nothing about. 

 

Does that makes sense? 

 

Ian D 

no

I think until someone with a defo 60ts copy comes forward with full (comparison) details, this copy will struggle by simply looking "to new" ............it doesnt seem to have sufferred any wear at all, even being amongst the other and does look to have been placed there...........only a minor indicator, but what dates were all the other records in the box.............

 

So we need someone to step forward and give a comparison / opinion ..............

How about, Sandy Golden had say a thousand made for selling at her gigs and she sold 995 of them to people in and around LA, because THEY liked it as much as we do. The loose 5 ended up floating out to the rest of the world.

Now those 995 copies are sat in people's house, garages ,lofts etc in the LA area, as they can't bear to part with them because they are part of their record collections, and like us lot, bloody hoard stuff let alone our precious 45s. As those people get older and pop their clogs or go into a care home, their possessions are cleared out and the odd one will trickle out, heaven forbid they all go at once otherwise the markets gonna be flooded with SGs ,(that's Sandy Golden not Steve G).

So bide your time gentlemen, the markets gonna be flooded and the valuation is gonna plummet! Or it's gonna remain RARE either way your gonna have to wait?

TMIB

Is this the copy concerned :

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsyxzeXKhIo

How about, Sandy Golden had say a thousand made for selling at her gigs and she sold 995 of them to people in and around LA, because THEY liked it as much as we do. The loose 5 ended up floating out to the rest of the world.

Now those 995 copies are sat in people's house, garages ,lofts etc in the LA area, as they can't bear to part with them because they are part of their record collections, and like us lot, bloody hoard stuff let alone our precious 45s. As those people get older and pop their clogs or go into a care home, their possessions are cleared out and the odd one will trickle out, heaven forbid they all go at once otherwise the markets gonna be flooded with SGs ,(that's Sandy Golden not Steve G).

So bide your time gentlemen, the markets gonna be flooded and the valuation is gonna plummet! Or it's gonna remain RARE either way your gonna have to wait?

TMIB

I think you're half-kidding (or completely kidding) here, and this proves I have no sense of humour.      But, nevertheless, as a masochist bent proving I'm a thickhead, I feel obliged to make this point:

 

I resided in L.A. full-time from 1966-mid 1972, worked in The Ghetto (at Crenshaw & Jefferson), regularly attended The Californian Club and Dick Barnett's Guys N' Dolls, listened to KGFJ every day, helped Mrs Dolphin carry in and sort records at Dolphins of Hollywood at all 3 stores, regularly visited Dooto Music Center, Sam's, Pat's, Flash, Herman Griffith's and many of the other Ghetto record shops, and I NEVER heard of Sandy Golden, nor saw a poster for an appearance by her?  That's likely because she wasn't recording, until at least, the early '70s.

 

I also went to parties in South L.A. and West Adams, and never saw a Sandy Golden record there, nor in any record collections (including that of Steve Propes, Chris Peake, John (The weird) from Hollywood(forget name), Norman Presley or Lonnie Cook.  I'd be very surprised if she had had a gig before 1970.  And if she did have a few afterwards, I'd be surprised if she sold any of her records there. 

 

I like the theory that Fortier recorded her over the Sweets' master tape instrumental, to see if he could make some sales.  In any case, as others have stated, without any evidence to the contrary, it's reasonable to consider this still very rare record a legitimate original (just more likely to be from the '70s than '60s).  It's still a very nice record to have.  If I were to have it, I wouldn't toss it off the shelf for being a '70s record (after all, I Do own about 25 of them!)-one is even from as late as 1975!)

Ive enjoyed this thread. I'm in the camp that says there's definitely two different female vocalists and not one vocalist double tracking ( the phrasing is different, I find the one that sounds like a little girl delightful, yet the other vocal which is cleaner, more crisp and the pronunciations sound more correct, edges it of the two, imho)
But that wasn't the thing I wanted to say. I wonder of we're all overthinking it, Occam's Razor... the label credits a Phyllis Fortier as co-writer. Everybody else has took various leaps into the wild blue, so here's another theory. As songwriters they get a chance to write for some artist, a track on a major artists multi million selling album is worth far more than a regional hit on their own label in dollar terms, so Nate gets his wife/sister/cousin into the studio to record what is in effect a demo to show the prospective artist, let's say for arguements sake, Cilla Black, how they envisage the song working. Rather than send off a cheapo looking acetate they decide to sport a few bucks and have the record pressed to give the potential artist, Cilla, the feeling that the song has already had some traction/radio plays ( Cilla liked doing her own versions of US soul tracks if her catalogue is anything to go by) I
n order to press up this sales device they need a flipside, okay lets knock one off. Hey lets use some old backing track thats lying around in the studio to keep costs down, a quick twiddle here, oh pass me that accordian, yes def sounds better now 
Sadly the song doesn't make the final cut for Cilla's album, so they give a few away here and there, send a few off to potential buyers at home and abroad etc. Mystery Solved, Sandy Golden is Phyllis Fortier !!! 
(PLEASE NOTE - other works of fiction/non fiction are also available. The values of vinyl theories may go up, as well as down    )

Ive enjoyed this thread. I'm in the camp that says there's definitely two different female vocalists and not one vocalist double tracking ( the phrasing is different, I find the one that sounds like a little girl delightful, yet the other vocal which is cleaner, more crisp and the pronunciations sound more correct, edges it of the two, imho)

But that wasn't the thing I wanted to say. I wonder of we're all overthinking it, Occam's Razor... the label credits a Phyllis Fortier as co-writer. Everybody else has took various leaps into the wild blue, so here's another theory. As songwriters they get a chance to write for some artist, a track on a major artists multi million selling album is worth far more than a regional hit on their own label in dollar terms, so Nate gets his wife/sister/cousin into the studio to record what is in effect a demo to show the prospective artist, let's say for arguements sake, Cilla Black, how they envisage the song working. Rather than send off a cheapo looking acetate they decide to sport a few bucks and have the record pressed to give the potential artist, Cilla, the feeling that the song has already had some traction/radio plays ( Cilla liked doing her own versions of US soul tracks if her catalogue is anything to go by) I

n order to press up this sales device they need a flipside, okay lets knock one off. Hey lets use some old backing track thats lying around in the studio to keep costs down, a quick twiddle here, oh pass me that accordian, yes def sounds better now 

Sadly the song doesn't make the final cut for Cilla's album, so they give a few away here and there, send a few off to potential buyers at home and abroad etc. Mystery Solved, Sandy Golden is Phyllis Fortier !!! 

(PLEASE NOTE - other works of fiction/non fiction are also available. The values of vinyl theories may go up, as well as down    )

Mr.Pugh you've cracked it Sir another case solved now to find the severd body from the ringed finger , regards to the Mrs and by the way it's been too long Sir best regards Simon.

I think until someone with a defo 60ts copy comes forward with full (comparison) details, this copy will struggle by simply looking "to new" ............it doesnt seem to have sufferred any wear at all, even being amongst the other and does look to have been placed there............

It was "placed there" two years ago? In the collection of a dead person? Well, that seems to have backfired a bit, then...

Surely we have all bought unplayed store stock 45s which look as new as the day they were pressed 40 years ago?

Mr Dobson or Mr Manship, in the name of all that is rare, PLEASE PUT US ALL OUT OF OUR COLLECTIVE MISERY!!! At least before this thread reaches 400 posts...

I think you're half-kidding (or completely kidding) here, and this proves I have no sense of humour. But, nevertheless, as a masochist bent proving I'm a thickhead, I feel obliged to make this point:

Sadly all tongue in cheek from me I'm afraid!!, just throwing one of the many theories that spring up when it comes to rare soul collecting.

It is not until those actually concerned give up the real truth about tracks that you can nail down why certain tracks are rare.

As for us collectors, in my opinion we can have various reasons why we actually think up theories, possibilities, reasons et al why a track is rare and all those can be due to reasons known only to ourselves as we may don't own one, are jealous of a fellow collector who has one, don't like the track and want to diss it because we value our opinion over others, I could go on, but basically as the old adage goes surely "It's what's in the groove that counts". Unless you collect just for original labels?

Now that may not go down in well in some purist circles, but I would rather have a bootleg, re-issue, carver, a Cd or whatever of a rare or unissued track that I really love/liked to play for my own pleasure than live without it. Ok burn me at the stake if you must.

Rarity is a term easily used for some tracks that don't actually deserve that tag, what actually constitutes rarity? For certain, if I turned up a painting by say Constable the art world would scrutinise it so much that perhaps even I might start thinking its a fake or have my doubts.

But who are those in the art world who can definitely say its original, collectors, curators auction house specialists? Even those experts have been fooled by forgers! Only the person who made said painting can shed light on the truth whether it be Constable or the forger?

The truth will out someday or remain a mystery for ever.

I collect the Reforee label and besides a couple of missing ones have them all, now the missing ones are obscure things, not big Northern dancers or rare deep soul but a Christmas record and something else from memory. Now it wasn't until I contacted the label owner about the label in general that I found out why some of the tracks are so bloody hard to find. Those tracks didn't sell and when Ted Jarrett moved house the label stock which was housed in his garage was literally put in a skip and sent to the dump!!!!! Case solved with regard to rarity, for those that didn't sell, otherwise they would of been out there in shops, etc.

As my dear lady has said on a few occasions ( not specifically for SG track) " it's rare now, because it didn't sell then because it was sh*t then and still is sh*t now". Now that's another reason and some of the tracks I have heard played out fall into that category, but that's my opinion.

Love this thread though lads, sadly it may come to and end some day soon............?.or not as the case may be.

Dave H.

Edited November 12, 201311 yr by reforee

Another question. if it has for instance been recently done(pressed) what could/would it fetch that made it logical/plausable to make it worth while?

surely it would be too expensive to sit  back and auction to realise big money?( i mean drip feed it)

That's something I hadn't actually considered NOT that I'm suggesting it's happened here. But if you wanted to bootleg this record, and it costs, say, £500 to press 500 - it would make more financial sense to auction ONE and sell it for £4,000 odd (and bin the remaining 499 copies) than it would to sell the 500 copies at a fiver a pop...

How about, Sandy Golden had say a thousand made for selling at her gigs and she sold 995 of them to people in and around LA, because THEY liked it as much as we do. The loose 5 ended up floating out to the rest of the world.

 

 

Dave, if there was a scintilla of truth to that copies would have surfaced in vg-- condition by now, being traded as "plays well" and "OK for DJing"...some of the LA dudes would have found the odd butchered copy, but they haven't. It's pretty clear that it wasn't distributed at all....

 

I think you're half-kidding (or completely kidding) here, and this proves I have no sense of humour.      But, nevertheless, as a masochist bent proving I'm a thickhead, I feel obliged to make this point:

 

I resided in L.A. full-time from 1966-mid 1972, worked in The Ghetto (at Crenshaw & Jefferson), regularly attended The Californian Club and Dick Barnett's Guys N' Dolls, listened to KGFJ every day, helped Mrs Dolphin carry in and sort records at Dolphins of Hollywood at all 3 stores, regularly visited Dooto Music Center, Sam's, Pat's, Flash, Herman Griffith's and many of the other Ghetto record shops, and I NEVER heard of Sandy Golden, nor saw a poster for an appearance by her?  That's likely because she wasn't recording, until at least, the early '70s.

 

I also went to parties in South L.A. and West Adams, and never saw a Sandy Golden record there, nor in any record collections (including that of Steve Propes, Chris Peake, John (The weird) from Hollywood(forget name), Norman Presley or Lonnie Cook.  I'd be very surprised if she had had a gig before 1970.  And if she did have a few afterwards, I'd be surprised if she sold any of her records there. 

 

The Fortiers actually live in San Bernardino, rather than South L.A. Of course that doesn't mean they lived there in the 70's, but food for thought....Seem to recall Ree Flores was also from somewhere like San Bernadino (did you encounter him in the 60s or 70s?) - greater LA but certainly not the central or ghetto areas... which is odd since the The Phoenix label address was North Hollywood, but I believe that was Calvin Wade's label, rather than Fortiers, though the two were obviously business associates for a while....

....

 

And Dave H. I am sorry but this is a proven rarity, has been known about and sought after since the 80s, certainly on 60's collectors wants lists if not every Tom Dick & Harry in the chasing pack, as is now the case....it's not a discovery of the last ten years that suddenly appeared out of the blue like the Four Vandals or Vaneicia Wilson....I am still 100% convinced it is a very rare record (probably early 70s).

 

All the wild guesswork and speculation from Ian and others hasn't changed that.

Edited November 12, 201311 yr by Steve G

It was "placed there" two years ago? In the collection of a dead person? Well, that seems to have backfired a bit, then...

Surely we have all bought unplayed store stock 45s which look as new as the day they were pressed 40 years ago?

Mr Dobson or Mr Manship, in the name of all that is rare, PLEASE PUT US ALL OUT OF OUR COLLECTIVE MISERY!!! At least before this thread reaches 400 posts...

 

The point being I have doubts that's where it was "found" - I am suspecting it was placed and the charming story invented ........

Is this the copy concerned :

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsyxzeXKhIo

Yes, I recorded this (I know the Bafta is in the post) recorded through the speakers in my system.

Edited November 12, 201311 yr by AGrail

Only interested in the record from a musical point not as rare records and the theories , the double tracking of the vocals the girly sound of one of them seem to have been done in a breathy Sylvia ( Pillow Talk ) type of way and the other comes across more womanly , I think its the same singer done in 2 different styles . 

 

Great record anyway, the  Your Love Is Everything track seems to show the limitations of the vocalist and near the end she seems to be struggling to hold it together non the less its still a great record.

Dave, if there was a scintilla of truth to that copies would have surfaced in vg-- condition by now, being traded as "plays well" and "OK for DJing"...some of the LA dudes would have found the odd butchered copy, but they haven't. It's pretty clear that it wasn't distributed at all....

 

 

The Fortiers actually live in San Bernardino, rather than South L.A. Of course that doesn't mean they lived there in the 70's, but food for thought....Seem to recall Ree Flores was also from somewhere like San Bernadino (did you encounter him in the 60s or 70s?) - greater LA but certainly not the central or ghetto areas... which is odd since the The Phoenix label address was North Hollywood, but I believe that was Calvin Wade's label, rather than Fortiers, though the two were obviously business associates for a while....

....

 

And Dave H. I am sorry but this is a proven rarity, has been known about and sought after since the 80s, certainly on 60's collectors wants lists if not every Tom Dick & Harry in the chasing pack, as is now the case....it's not a discovery of the last ten years that suddenly appeared out of the blue like the Four Vandals or Vaneicia Wilson....I am still 100% convinced it is a very rare record (probably early 70s).

 

All the wild guesswork and speculation from Ian and others hasn't changed that.

No, I never went to San Bernardino or Riverside to look for records, or to visit collectors or record label owners.

Definitely sounds double-tracked to me..Listen to the way the first vocal is quite abruptly 'bumped' by the second, right at the start (which adds to its appeal, I think. I always used to think that was a skip when I heard it out!). 

 

Of course, this does not preclude it being two separate vocalists as well (which also seems plausible)

Edited November 13, 201311 yr by son of stan

Blindingly obvious observation on the Sandy Golden saga... Nate Fortier is on Twitter.. Has anyone asked him about SG??

https://twitter.com/mrnate477

....Just dipped back into thread and seen that others have previously been in touch with him and that he's not been well.......,

Edited November 13, 201311 yr by Robin S

Although styrene common on the west coast (it was cheaper and the stampers lasted longer) there are plenty of examples of West Coast vinyl presses.  Even Monarch used vinyl and I can think of Highland label 45's on vinyl with a monarch delta number, Kell Osborne being one.  Arthur Wright told me they used whoever was the cheapest at the time and where credit was good.

 

P.S. Just read Steve's response to West Coast vinyl.  And I agree Kitch and Butch must be having a good giggle at this.

 

 

I didnt explain myself very well, did I

 

Obviously there are lots of west cost produced vinyl, but where were they pressing them on the west coast and what matrix is that on the sandy golden 45

 

can anyone work that one out, that was what I was sort of thinking about

I didnt explain myself very well, did I

 

Obviously there are lots of west cost produced vinyl, but where were they pressing them on the west coast and what matrix is that on the sandy golden 45

 

can anyone work that one out, that was what I was sort of thinking about

 

 

The matrix on Sandy Golden is from the Artisan Mastering Studio.  They would have mastered the track, probably for Nate Fortier and then it would have been pressed elsewhere.

The matrix on Sandy Golden is from the Artisan Mastering Studio.  They would have mastered the track, probably for Nate Fortier and then it would have been pressed elsewhere.

Perhaps there's a clue to where these records were pressed on the runout wax of some of the other records with that same label font (Ray Agee, The Magnificents, etc.)?

Perhaps there's a clue to where these records were pressed on the runout wax of some of the other records with that same label font (Ray Agee, The Magnificents, etc.)?

 

ALCO as a guess......

 

Ian D 

The Ray Agee Krafton releases may be ALCO presses but must be 1964 at the latest, Soultown wasn't in operation then, Ray's Losin' Again is a July 1967 press from monarch and on vinyl. I don't hear Sandy on backing vocals?

The Ray Agee Krafton releases may be ALCO presses but must be 1964 at the latest, Soultown wasn't in operation then, Ray's Losin' Again is a July 1967 press from monarch and on vinyl. I don't hear Sandy on backing vocals?

 

I wasn't thinking either the 60's or Ray Agee especially Tony. I was talking about the first ramp of Soussan boots with the same typesetter (circa '73/'74) were done at ALCO before he fell out with 'em and moved to Monarch I think. That Ray Agee orange pressing from what would appear to be the same typesetter is just plain weird.....I don't know what the story is there.......

 

Ian D 

Surley if Sandy is a Monarch press it will have a date stampin the dead wax?

I wasn't thinking either the 60's or Ray Agee especially Tony. I was talking about the first ramp of Soussan boots with the same typesetter (circa '73/'74) were done at ALCO before he fell out with 'em and moved to Monarch I think. That Ray Agee orange pressing from what would appear to be the same typesetter is just plain weird.....I don't know what the story is there.......

 

Ian D 

Maybe that was a '70s legitimate re-issue by the owner, to try to sell to the NS crowd, and he had them pressed by ALCO?

Maybe that was a '70s legitimate re-issue by the owner, to try to sell to the NS crowd, and he had them pressed by ALCO?

 

Could well be Rob. I'm not actually familiar with the record. I presume it must have been a local hit to warrant a re-press?

 

Ian D 

Maybe that was a '70s legitimate re-issue by the owner, to try to sell to the NS crowd, and he had them pressed by ALCO?

 

 

Could well be Rob. I'm not actually familiar with the record. I presume it must have been a local hit to warrant a re-press?

 

Ian D 

 

Ray Agee had several records on that Krafton label with the script design, all in the 60s on the 500 and 600 numeric series. He did later ones on the label but they had a completely different label design - capital letters. So that Krafton script design was around long before Soussan etc. etc. etc. etc.

Edited November 17, 201311 yr by Steve G

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_Circuits_Prophet-5

Sounds more like one of these in the back ground.

Could well be Rob. I'm not actually familiar with the record. I presume it must have been a local hit to warrant a re-press?

 

Ian D 

Now that I think of it, I don't think "I Got What You looking For" was a local hit in the early '60s.  I never heard it played as an oldie on KGFJ, and it was not common at all in the record shops' oldies and bargain bins, nor in thrift shops, nor in R&B and Soul collectors' collections.  Nor can I remember seeing it on California radio station charts.  But Ray was still a popular Blues singer in the clubs in California all through the '60s and '70s, so Krafton's owner might have repressed several of his early records to try to sell.  On the other hand, we know that that font was used by Krafton in 1963-64, so I suppose it is just a colour variation from release to release (I had only seen the maroon one, not the orangish one.  But, the latter could possibly just be a scan colour variation. 

The matrix on Sandy Golden is from the Artisan Mastering Studio.  They would have mastered the track, probably for Nate Fortier and then it would have been pressed elsewhere.

 

so a rare original then

Yes Gareth. Good luck to the fella in Plymouth for such a find.

told ya

told ya

 

No you didn't :lol: First post was an "oo wow!"……then we had seven pages of panto "Oh no it isn't" etc….

No you didn't :lol: First post was an "oo wow!"……then we had seven pages of panto "Oh no it isn't" etc….

not from me......      ...........you see unlike you lot l know me tunes....who do you think butch goes to for advice???.....mwoa!!

not from me......      ...........you see unlike you lot l know me tunes....who do you think butch goes to for advice???.....mwoa!!

 

In fairness you were in the "it's real" camp Terry .....I know me vinyl too......just cannot believe how many conspiracy theorists jumped into the ring on this one, with BS.

 

PS: Where were you Saturday, your boy did yer proud at Boomerang!

Edited November 29, 201311 yr by Steve G

In fairness you were in the "it's real" camp Terry .....I know me vinyl too......just cannot believe how many conspiracy theorists jumped into the ring on this one, with BS.

 

PS: Where were you Saturday, your boy did yer proud at Boomerang!

who was that???...........boomerang is a bit to classy for me mate....tunes are to polished

who was that???...........boomerang is a bit to classy for me mate....tunes are to polished

 

Len.

Len.

Don,t be daft..........sort of stuff len plays....they use at the local    baby and toddler group.....to send em to sleep.....and at northampton general.....for medically induced comas  

I wonder if theres a way to put a date on it via the artisan mastering in the way you can date rite pressings...

In fairness you were in the "it's real" camp Terry .....I know me vinyl too......just cannot believe how many conspiracy theorists jumped into the ring on this one, with BS.

 

 

Oswald did not act alone!

In fairness you were in the "it's real" camp Terry .....I know me vinyl too......just cannot believe how many conspiracy theorists jumped into the ring on this one, with BS. PS: Where were you Saturday, your boy did yer proud at Boomerang!

Dont be too harsh with the sceptical side of the collecting world, not taking everything for granted, having doubts and looking for new solutions always been the driving force behind evolution ;)

I wonder if theres a way to put a date on it via the artisan mastering in the way you can date rite pressings...

 

You've got to saw it in half and count the rings Marc, it's easy.

In fairness you were in the "it's real" camp Terry .....I know me vinyl too......just cannot believe how many conspiracy theorists jumped into the ring on this one, with BS.

 

PS: Where were you Saturday, your boy did yer proud at Boomerang!

 

Camp Terry - that won't stick.

I wonder if theres a way to put a date on it via the artisan mastering in the way you can date rite pressings...

I presume Artisan have or had records of the work they undertook.

Do we have an answer yet.

Are we still agreed its an awesome piece of music that deserves its place in the Northern Soul hall of all time greats?

Do we have an answer yet.

Are we still agreed its an awesome piece of music that deserves its place in the Northern Soul hall of all time greats?

might be lol