..........that seem to be upsettin' some folks?

 

In early Dec last year, Susan and me went to a night in the Northwest. This is a night that I had been trying to get to for some time. 'Twas a cracking night with what I thought was some fabulous soul music of differing types, some I knew and many others that I didn't. Just the sort of thing that I like. At some point in the early hours I went outside for a smoke. Three others were outside doing the same. Anyway, I stood by them minding my own business but couldn't help hearing their conversation, which was a 'bemoaning' of the number of R&B records being played at 'Northern' nights. All of a sudden and obviously because he realised that I was listening, one of the blokes asked me what I thought. I pondered for a second, shrugged my shoulders and replied "I'm never really sure what is meant to be an R&B record as opposed to a Soul record; isn't Washed Ashore by The Platters an R&B record, I'm sure that I've heard or read it described as such?"

 

Now, if the man in question is a visitor to this site and he somehow remembers the encounter, please do not take offence as this is meant to be lighthearted.

 

Well, what happend next has been making me chuckle to myself ever since. You'd have thought that I'd just blasphemed or something worse! This chap looked at me with contorted disgust and informed, nay scolded me as one might tell off a naughty child, that the said record had once upon time in the 60s been voted best Soul Record by some organisation or another! Before I could respond by telling him that I'm a 'know nowt' and it really doesn't matter to me as it's all soul to my ears, he walked back into the venue 'spluttering' and shaking his head with contempt for my ignorance!!!!!!!

Edited February 22, 201510 yr by Drew3

Personally,  I've never been so affronted. I think you should be banned from this site and have all your records smashed!

Sorry, I do not know what happen to the end of my post!

 

Should have had the following also:

 

Now, as much as this has been a source of mirth to me since, it has had me thinkin. What are these R&B imposters that some feel have no place on the Soul/Northern Soul Scene?

 

Please can anyone posting an example also add a link for the record so we can hear it whilst reading, as it weren't?

 

Regards.

Drew.

Personally,  I've never been so affronted. I think you should be banned from this site and have all your records smashed!

 

 

You you are probably, most definately right there Godz and I'm sure that is what this chap thought!!!!!!!

 

Regards.

Drew.

I once got hell for playing a 'C&W' record at a do, the guy said 'who the f**k is that country guy singing?' My reply - 'He's called Arthur Alexander'.

 

The offending record. Whatever you call it - i'd call it a Soul record - its a fine one. Not typical of The Platters but really so what?

 

As long as you like it thats really all that matters.

I'm Shakin' - Little Willie John?

 

I often think about the sound and feel of records that got me into northern soul in the first place and this is pretty far away from that. It gets played quite a bit at some of the places I go. Great Rnb record, make no mistake, but for me, not northern.... IMO  ...too early, too bluesy - file along with John Lee Hooker, Jimmy Reed etc.

Ask Mace. I'm sure he escaped from one flew over the cuckoo's nest.

Steve

Should have told them it's all R n B

Or you should have said to them that you are more into "Transition" rather then into out & out

R n B...........Transition=Those tunes that are on the border of early soul & R n B..........well there's "Crossover" so why can't I have "Transition" :lol:

Well you said you wanted it light-hearted   

Jimmy Robins-I Can't Please........been danced to since The Wheel hasn't it?

Cheers

Martyn

I'm Shakin' - Little Willie John?

 

I often think about the sound and feel of records that got me into northern soul in the first place and this is pretty far away from that. It gets played quite a bit at some of the places I go. Great Rnb record, make no mistake, but for me, not northern.... IMO  ...too early, too bluesy - file along with John Lee Hooker, Jimmy Reed etc.

Stu

I see my works not finished with you yet

Cheers

Martyn

Should have told them it's all R n B

Or you should have said to them that you are more into "Transition" rather then into out & out

R n B...........Transition=Those tunes that are on the border of early soul & R n B..........well there's "Crossover" so why can't I have "Transition" :lol:

Martin. I already have transitions.....in my glasses

Steve

Conversely due to the loads of cheap compilations of out of copyright over 50 year old R&B almost all with an title related to NS there must be a generation emerging who perceive that as the proper sound!

There was quite a furore about Barbara Redd - I'll Be Alone a few years ago. Everyone saying it was basically Country and Western/RnB and had no place at a northern soul night. Also James Duncan - Three Little Pigs.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGoqbZNGMkY

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq3CqQK8onc

 

I don't have an opinion either way to be honest. Since 'northern soul' isn't a genre as such, I've always thought if I can dance to it (in a northern stylee) it's ok by me.

Edited February 22, 201510 yr by Matt Male

There was quite a furore about Barbara Redd - I'll Be Alone a few years ago. Everyone saying it was basically Country and Western/RnB and had no place at a northern soul night. Also James Duncan - Three Little Pigs.

 

 

I don't have an opinion either way to be honest. Since 'northern soul' isn't a genre as such, I've always thought if I can dance to it (in a northern stylee) it's ok by me.

Matt

LaRose Phillips-Wanted used to get the same stick as Barbara Redd,like you don't have a problem with them been played

Cheers

Martyn

 

C

Washed Ashore in my book is soul soul soul and nothing but soul but wtf do I know. 

Bud Harper Wherever You Were and the Enchantments I'm In Love With Your Daughter have been considered provocative by some. Big Daddy Rogers on Midas too. I love them. Great dance records. 

Bud Harper Wherever You Were and the Enchantments I'm In Love With Your Daughter have been considered provocative by some. Big Daddy Rogers on Midas too. I love them. Great dance records. 

Out of interest, when were these considered provocative? Haven't these been "Northern Soul" classics for decades.

 

Are the musically ignorant people who were so offended "way back when" still on the scene? If so, please do point them out. Better still, let yourselves be known...

Russell, I think it's people who weren't on the scene in the mid 80s and have walked into venues in the last 15 years, complete with the "uniform" and with a mid 70s perspective of what djs should be playing. They want Case of Tyme or Johnny Vanelli and get Bud Harper or Big Daddy Rogers and then say wtf is this, play some proper Northern. 

The Northern Soul nest is full of cuckoos from many genres....probably more pop cuckoos in there than R&B ones.

I'd actually rather not hear overplayed R&B records at Northern events cus they've usually had their day years ago an the R&B scene.....

Little Willie John 'Im shakin' was already well overplayed 5+ years ago as a £30 record on the R&B scene never mind as £100 record on the Northern Scene nowadays....along with 'Somebody's always trying' and 'My baby likes to boogaloo' etc etc etc

Still great tunes in their own right, but you're welcome to have 'em, love or loathe 'em in the Northern Oldies venues IMO.

Edited February 23, 201510 yr by Mace

Washed Ashore in my book is soul soul soul and nothing but soul but wtf do I know. 

Indeed Mick, those last few lines of the song are as soulful as it gets. But that is the point, I'm sure that I once read on here that it was regarded as an R&B record when it first came out. Anyway, the next couple of posts to yours kinda makes the point; someone thinks it's soul, someone else thinks it's R&B. Keep the examples coming. 

 

Regards.

Drew.

There was quite a furore about Barbara Redd - I'll Be Alone a few years ago. Everyone saying it was basically Country and Western/RnB and had no place at a northern soul night. Also James Duncan - Three Little Pigs.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGoqbZNGMkY

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq3CqQK8onc

 

I don't have an opinion either way to be honest. Since 'northern soul' isn't a genre as such, I've always thought if I can dance to it (in a northern stylee) it's ok by me.

Exactly what I was after Matt. The Barbara Redd is new to me and sounds dead soulful to me. Sorta get the James Duncan, which I have heard before but, to some other it might fit the soul bill! The Barbara Redd is more soulful than some tunes played over the years.

 

Regards.

Drew.

Indeed Mick, those last few lines of the song are as soulful as it gets. But that is the point, I'm sure that I once read on here that it was regarded as an R&B record when it first came out. Anyway, the next couple of posts to yours kinda makes the point; someone thinks it's soul, someone else thinks it's R&B. Keep the examples coming. 

 

Regards.

Drew.

Well, being as it was written by two of the greatest soul writers... Wylie&Hester!!! I can't detect any R&B content in this, they are singing in very soulful tones, one of the early anthem records

Exactly what I was after Matt. The Barbara Redd is new to me and sounds dead soulful to me. Sorta get the James Duncan, which I have heard before but, to some other it might fit the soul bill! The Barbara Redd is more soulful than some tunes played over the years.

 

Regards.

Drew.

I like both, but what do i know?. I've only been on the scene for 39 years (and djed for 25 of them) but both tracks are new to me.

 

oops trying to make myself younger.

Edited February 23, 201510 yr by Gogs

Barbara Redd - northern soul or soul at all ???  NO WAY. 

There was a time when it was known that "soul" came into existence in the early sixties after blues and rythm `n´ blues had come. Soul was no longer "race music" but adapted contemporary "white" 60s-pop/beat. Imagine a lot of great NS-tracks with a white instead of black singer(s), wouldn't many call them pop then ? And I'm not only talkin about Tamla Motown here.

These dusty rural RnB/blues-records are only for folks afraid to move forward into the 70s ff.. Instead they keep retreating. Last exit delta blues, eh ? 

IVe been into soul music n Rn B for over 50 years and if aR n B record sounds soulful its a soul record wether you would call it NS is another issue.It can be the listener,s own interpretation sometimes how they decide this.If it's doo wop soul, 60's pop soul if it's got it its got it.Ive heard over the years certain Dj,s come out with sweeping statements  like I can't stand R n b. then when they play their sets you hear them play R n b.Its as if when they play R n B it turns into NS.I remember in the late 80's early 90's some brilliant sounds were found if they were found by the so called elitist DJ,s they were called new 60's if they were discovered by other DJ,s they were called doo wop, rock nroll, or R n B.The matter is very subjective  Quite simply there are some fantastic soulful RnB records to an extent where the two genres merge .does it realy matter if it sounds Soulful.?

Peace and Tranquility Mick L

Mick L, I hear you, but I think it does matter to a certain extent where the music as such simply doesn't fit in anymore. Bud Harper or Bobby Bland certainly do but Redd does not. Why not play soulful country or samba or calypso then ?

I know that NORTHERN Soul has become an extremely vague term over the decades but you have to excuse me - I know folks who would cheer for Barbara Redd but despise very soulful "disco-boogie"/"house" or "modern" in general just because it doesn't fit into their strictly limited "soul"-calendar.

Peace H.

 

I know that NORTHERN Soul has become an extremely vague term over the decades but you have to excuse me - I know folks who would cheer for Barbara Redd but despise very soulful "disco-boogie"/"house" or "modern" in general just because it doesn't fit into their strictly limited "soul"-calendar.

Peace H.

 

Very soulful disco boogie is a contradiction of terms, I'd rather listen to 'real' country and western than that sh*te.

The Barbara Redd record is awful by the way.

Don't know about your mate Drew, perhaps it was better he just walked off... you should have kept going up to him, asking if this and that was R&B... really done his head in...

 

I think we pigeon hole music too much allot of the time, I've always thought of 'R&B' as being used by all sort of folk from all over the wold, for varying degrees of Black Music... its never gone out use, and it means different things to different people...

 

so there...

M:-))

Barbara Redd - i like all kinds of music and it is sort of ok from that perspective..But...how is anyone meant to dance to it? Some kinda ludicrous 'horsey horsey don't you stop' moves???

A little R&B is ok with me, Tiny Topsy - just a little bit, Sherry Taylor - He's the one that rings my bell etc; Etta James Seven day fool always seems to fill the dance floor.

I draw the line with some modern  / disco eg - Bob sinclair - Tribute for example, well outside my idea of a NS tune. 

Please Mr /Mrs DJ please leave Bob Sinclair - 'Tribute' at home or save it for the disco audience.

Barbara Redd - northern soul or soul at all ???  NO WAY. 

There was a time when it was known that "soul" came into existence in the early sixties after blues and rythm `n´ blues had come. Soul was no longer "race music" but adapted contemporary "white" 60s-pop/beat. Imagine a lot of great NS-tracks with a white instead of black singer(s), wouldn't many call them pop then ? And I'm not only talkin about Tamla Motown here.

These dusty rural RnB/blues-records are only for folks afraid to move forward into the 70s ff.. Instead they keep retreating. Last exit delta blues, eh ? 

There's nothing wrong with Parchman Farm, Angola State Penitentiary or the Dockery Plantation, I'll have you know. In 1963 when this scene was kicking off, nobody stopped to compartmentalise the music. That's why they played Help Me Rhonda alongside Garnett Mimms and John Lee Hooker. If it feels good, do it! 

P.s. Have to add that that Barbara Redd record is marmite. She did much better stuff than that...

if we are talking about being out at an event to me its just about the beat and if I can dance to it in a kinda 'northern soul style' if ya know what I mean?  ..love my rnb but some of the very early 60s and late 50s stuff has more of a jive feel about it..sales described as rockin rnb are normally not for me..don't get me wrong im not one of those who call it rock n roll..there is a difference

 

this is also the same with funk..love my 60s uptempo stuff..slower mid 70s funkedelic not normally for me

 

said many a time the whole 'this isn't northern' statement bores me as IMO whether it be bob sinclar,Charles Sheffield or bobby kline its not 'northern' as first described in the early 70s but they all fill the floors now...