cheatin kind

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Okeh said:

We are mate  

A true lack of respect to the guys who have got an original

You could even say it's kinda cheatin ouch sorry

[John Moffatt]

12 hours ago, Martin Smith said:

You could even say it's kinda cheatin ouch sorry

Forgiving the joke , this is one of those tricky ones, for me at any rate. I'm never going to find £5000 or whatever for a proper 1st release (even if I could find a proper 1st release), so what do I do? I wouldn't play a bootleg, and, although I have one of the 'legit' album-included second issues, I haven't played it out, (yet?). It's all down to where you draw the line I suppose, which is an old topic, thrashed to death on here and other sites, so I'll leave it at that. Thanks everyone for their info about the matrix etc. Good knowledge to have.

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by John Moffatt

[Foi]

26 minutes ago, John Moffatt said:

Forgiving the joke , this is one of those tricky ones, for me at any rate. I'm never going to find £5000 or whatever for a proper 1st release (even if I could find a proper 1st release), so what do I do? I wouldn't play a bootleg, and, although I have one of the 'legit' album-included second issues, I haven't played it out, (yet?). It's all down to where you draw the line I suppose, which is an old topic, thrashed to death on here and other sites, so I'll leave it at that. Thanks everyone for their info about the matrix etc. Good knowledge to have.

 

John aside from all the 'elitism' (for want of a better word) that parts of the soul scene seems to be suffering from, lets not forget years back (70s & 80s) we didnt have video cameras playing down onto the decks and projected onto a wall  so that joe public can see what the dj was spinning, lot of djs years back played emi discs for obvious reasons, in todays climate that would not be accepted. The fact that original copies of Cheatin' Kind are rare means that is not accessible to everyone's collections. What's more at least Don Gardner himself will be and has been paid royalties from the "legit reissue" which he personally licensed himself via Tramp records, which i kind of think is probably more important than the 'elitists' moaning about how they are not originals and how it puts the scene down. Bootlegs agreed should not be made of the original unless someone is paid royalties somewhere along the line of production, its a cancer that should be cut out. However, how can a singer that's still alive getting paid from a "legit reissue" be a negative thing?!

Edited November 23, 2016 by foi

[John Moffatt]

2 hours ago, foi said:

John aside from all the 'elitism' (for want of a better word) that parts of the soul scene seems to be suffering from, lets not forget years back (70s & 80s) we didnt have video cameras playing down onto the decks and projected onto a wall  so that joe public can see what the dj was spinning, lot of djs years back played emi discs for obvious reasons, in todays climate that would not be accepted. The fact that original copies of Cheatin' Kind are rare means that is not accessible to everyone's collections. What's more at least Don Gardner himself will be and has been paid royalties from the "legit reissue" which he personally licensed himself via Tramp records, which i kind of think is probably more important than the 'elitists' moaning about how they are not originals and how it puts the scene down. Bootlegs agreed should not be made of the original unless someone is paid royalties somewhere along the line of production, its a cancer that should be cut out. However, how can a singer that's still alive getting paid from a "legit reissue" be a negative thing?!

Can't argue with that mate. This is one case, amongst others, where I personally wouldn't object to anyone playing it. Will anyone object if I play it? Now that's something I will find out. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, John Moffatt said:

Forgiving the joke , this is one of those tricky ones, for me at any rate. I'm never going to find £5000 or whatever for a proper 1st release (even if I could find a proper 1st release), so what do I do? I wouldn't play a bootleg, and, although I have one of the 'legit' album-included second issues, I haven't played it out, (yet?). It's all down to where you draw the line I suppose, which is an old topic, thrashed to death on here and other sites, so I'll leave it at that. Thanks everyone for their info about the matrix etc. Good knowledge to have.

 

 

39 minutes ago, John Moffatt said:

Can't argue with that mate. This is one case, amongst others, where I personally wouldn't object to anyone playing it. Will anyone object if I play it? Now that's something I will find out. 

Same argument goes to lots of expensive records John and IMO all depends on whether you class yourself as an OVO DJ. If not then I would think it doesn't really matter 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Guest

[Kevinkent]

Why does everyone have to to be a DJ?   Just buy it and play it at home. 

- Kev. 

[Paul Shirley]

2 hours ago, KevinKent said:

Why does everyone have to to be a DJ?   Just buy it and play it at home. 

- Kev. 

Exactly , 

[Chalky]

19 hours ago, Okeh said:

We are mate  

A true lack of respect to the guys who have got an original

I find it amazing the lengths some will go to to try and gain a little credibility djing, as said they aren't originals and there has been other reissues before this.  They would have more credibility in my eyes Djing with a bunch of cheapies and using some imagination.

 Ffs you can still buy the Lp and single for 30 euros yet some of these muppets would sooner spend a small fortune off ebay....does paying a small fortune give them even more credibility?

[Ady Potts]

When I first spotted the title to this thread I thought this should be interesting it'll be who discovered it first & where ? who played it first ? etc., type of thingy. I like those threads because they usually end up in a big argument. But there's a bootleg of a re-issue ? wonder if the bootleg was pressed before the re-issue or the re-issue was pressed before the bootleg ? I hope no one boots the boot of the re-issue, or asks Don if it's ok to do another re-issue.

Right, I feel better now getting that off my chest. I've only got to iron out the creases in another 21 old green 7" record sleeves then I'm done for the day 

[Steve Foran]

I think Ian Levine first played Don Gardner, but not huge for him. According to Richard Searling a few years back he got it off Levine along with 2 or 3 other massive things and RS played it out at WC, maybe around 79 onwards. Not totally certain but that my best guess Pottsy! Hope you are well?

Regards

Steve

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, Steve Foran said:

I think Ian Levine first played Don Gardner, but not huge for him. According to Richard Searling a few years back he got it off Levine along with 2 or 3 other massive things and RS played it out at WC, maybe around 79 onwards. Not totally certain but that my best guess Pottsy! Hope you are well?

Regards

Steve

Hi Steve,

Apart from Ian and Richard do you know of who might have once owned a copy or has one now?

Chatted with Kenny Burrell in Edinburgh once so know he had one. Heard Mick H might have a copy now but not really sure of anyone else.

 

[Chalky]

8 minutes ago, Martin Smith said:

Hi Steve,

Apart from Ian and Richard do you know of who might have once owned a copy or has one now?

Chatted with Kenny Burrell in Edinburgh once so know he had one. Heard Mick H might have a copy now but not really sure of anyone else.

 

Rob Smith has/had one, Andy Dyson, Carl F I think...few more about than people realise.

[Julianb]

Phil dick and Pete Fowler both have copies ( Pete outbid me for his!!)

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, JulianB said:

Phil dick and Pete Fowler both have copies ( Pete outbid me for his!!)

Thanks Julian I've seen Pete's playlists from the Oz weekenders and he's got some proper nice stuff.

[Patto]

Cheatin Kind WHAT an incredible slab of Northern Soul.Those Searling late casino plays still bring up the hairs on the back of the neck.Imagine this one followed by Court Davis pure magic.Real shame they are so rare to not get played out much but thats the same with lots of stuff.Just got to bite the bullet and follow the D J that has the real deal then beg em to play it.

[Steve Foran]

1 hour ago, Martin Smith said:

Hi Steve,

Apart from Ian and Richard do you know of who might have once owned a copy or has one now?

Chatted with Kenny Burrell in Edinburgh once so know he had one. Heard Mick H might have a copy now but not really sure of anyone else.

 

I am fairly certain that John Manship told me he actually sold it to Ian Levine at a Ritz all dayer. So that was it first JM, then IL then RS in that order but only the same copy. Hope that makes sense? Hi Julian alright mate?

[Mick Shaxted]

how is anyone suppose to knows these records if they wasn't there when they was played out years ago ,so many many not played anymore because of collectors or whatever not dj ing ,I love to hear the records played out that mean so much to me being an original or not ,todays northern soul comprising of same same same ,if we could all turn back the clock when there was plenty of everything about it would be brilliant,but we cant , its nice to play originals' but also nice to hear the maga rare priceless gems even on a repress

 

[Peter99]

19 minutes ago, micks2825 said:

how is anyone suppose to knows these records if they wasn't there when they was played out years ago ,so many many not played anymore because of collectors or whatever not dj ing ,I love to hear the records played out that mean so much to me being an original or not ,todays northern soul comprising of same same same ,if we could all turn back the clock when there was plenty of everything about it would be brilliant,but we cant , its nice to play originals' but also nice to hear the maga rare priceless gems even on a repress

 

Or a bootleg do you mean? Sorry, but I disagree. Plenty of places to go to hear rare ovo. 

[Chalky]

5 hours ago, Steve Foran said:

I am fairly certain that John Manship told me he actually sold it to Ian Levine at a Ritz all dayer. So that was it first JM, then IL then RS in that order but only the same copy. Hope that makes sense? Hi Julian alright mate?

There is a video of JM with a broken copy of this, in it he said he shifted it to IL, when I mentioned this IL in his usual dramatic fashion said not and he discovered it in the US.

[Mick Shaxted]

On 11/25/2016 at 19:24, Peter99 said:

Or a bootleg do you mean? Sorry, but I disagree. Plenty of places to go to hear rare ovo. 

Easter grant lets get the most out of love were can I go and here that played peter ,I go to rare soul night and even dj myself with rare ovo of course but there are records you don't here

 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Mick Shaxted

[Guest chorleybloke]

There might be another issue here.  Why did Tramp records spend so much time and effort with the giveaway legit reissue in replicating the original (albeit they didn't quite get it right)?  Why didn't they design a completely different label?

Could it be that they were hoping that somewhere down the line unsuspecting buyers or wannabee OVO DJs would pay well over the odds for the single?

Heaven forbid

[Soul Shrews]

21 hours ago, Martin Smith said:

Hi Steve,

Apart from Ian and Richard do you know of who might have once owned a copy or has one now?

Chatted with Kenny Burrell in Edinburgh once so know he had one. Heard Mick H might have a copy now but not really sure of anyone else.

 

Remember Pep playing it late 70s

Cheers Paul

[Foi]

6 minutes ago, soul shrews said:

Remember Pep playing it late 70s

Cheers Paul

Pep was one best djs back then, playing innovative tunes if i remember right John Bowie was one of them among many others....

Edited November 26, 2016 by foi

[Foi]

11 hours ago, chorleybloke said:

There might be another issue here.  Why did Tramp records spend so much time and effort with the giveaway legit reissue in replicating the original (albeit they didn't quite get it right)?  Why didn't they design a completely different label?

Could it be that they were hoping that somewhere down the line unsuspecting buyers or wannabee OVO DJs would pay well over the odds for the single?

Heaven forbid

Or looking at it another way is, they (Tramp records) saw that a now 85 year old veteran US soul singer (DG) could at last profit a little from a record he recorded years ago from which he has not received any royalties from until a "legit reissue" was released and endorsed by him. I stagger to believe how many old US soul singers out there  still alive that have not gained one penny from their original releases. There is a very valid and coherent argument for "legit reissues" (for contemporary soul singers and maybe deceased) to be released and used in the current soul scene..i.e. its an appreciative gesture by all of us to make sure that these soul singers/artists/songwriters get some financial recognition finally after all the years we as buyers/sellers/collectors/djs have been circulating originals all these years without them earning in a lot of cases not one cent from the sales. One would like to believe ideally this was what Tramp record's intentions were in any case.....??

Edited November 26, 2016 by foi

[Tattoodave]

13 hours ago, micks2825 said:

Easter grant lets get the most out of love were can I go and here that played peter ,I go to rare soul night and even dj myself with rare ovo of course but there are records you don't here

 

It was played at Hitsville in September, Pete Fowler played it.

[Chalky]

14 hours ago, micks2825 said:

Easter grant lets get the most out of love were can I go and here that played peter ,I go to rare soul night and even dj myself with rare ovo of course but there are records you don't here

 

Grumpy or anywhere Carl Fortnum djs

[Ady Potts]

Carl will be playing it tonight at Stewartby. Sorry about the very blatant unsubtle plug.

[Benji]

18 hours ago, chorleybloke said:

There might be another issue here.  Why did Tramp records spend so much time and effort with the giveaway legit reissue in replicating the original (albeit they didn't quite get it right)?  Why didn't they design a completely different label?

Could it be that they were hoping that somewhere down the line unsuspecting buyers or wannabee OVO DJs would pay well over the odds for the single?

Heaven forbid

Complete bullshit.

[Chalky]

9 hours ago, foi said:

Or looking at it another way is, they (Tramp records) saw that a now 85 year old veteran US soul singer (DG) could at last profit a little from a record he recorded years ago from which he has not received any royalties from until a "legit reissue" was released and endorsed by him. I stagger to believe how many old US soul singers out there  still alive that have not gained one penny from their original releases. There is a very valid and coherent argument for "legit reissues" (for contemporary soul singers and maybe deceased) to be released and used in the current soul scene..i.e. its an appreciative gesture by all of us to make sure that these soul singers/artists/songwriters get some financial recognition finally after all the years we as buyers/sellers/collectors/djs have been circulating originals all these years without them earning in a lot of cases not one cent from the sales. One would like to believe ideally this was what Tramp record's intentions were in any case.....??

When Andy Dyson showed Don the record, Don wasn't aware it had a release.  He said he sent some tapes to James Vanleer and that he wasn't aware Vanleer released any of the tracks.

[Foi]

1 hour ago, chalky said:

When Andy Dyson showed Don the record, Don wasn't aware it had a release.  He said he sent some tapes to James Vanleer and that he wasn't aware Vanleer released any of the tracks.

Yep Chalky I heard that story as well, which is a shame as he's been on the music circuit a long time as we all know. Aside all the bickering and indifference in peoples opinions at least Don is now getting some royalties from his most revered tune and in a way the purchase of not only the "legit reissue" of Cheatin' Kind but the LP that Tramp records produced justifies this, that dues are paid at last. The legitimate production and sale of "400 limited reissues" along with the double albums one would hope make up for the fact he was duped with not knowing about the original release of Cheatin' Kind and the handful of originals that are in existence from that release.

[Guest chorleybloke]

14 hours ago, foi said:

Or looking at it another way is, they (Tramp records) saw that a now 85 year old veteran US soul singer (DG) could at last profit a little from a record he recorded years ago from which he has not received any royalties from until a "legit reissue" was released and endorsed by him. I stagger to believe how many old US soul singers out there  still alive that have not gained one penny from their original releases. There is a very valid and coherent argument for "legit reissues" (for contemporary soul singers and maybe deceased) to be released and used in the current soul scene..i.e. its an appreciative gesture by all of us to make sure that these soul singers/artists/songwriters get some financial recognition finally after all the years we as buyers/sellers/collectors/djs have been circulating originals all these years without them earning in a lot of cases not one cent from the sales. One would like to believe ideally this was what Tramp record's intentions were in any case.....??

Their intentions may well have been honourable but that still doesn't explain to me why they decided to try to (unsuccessfully) replicate the original label design.

[Chatty]

On 25/11/2016 at 22:29, chorleybloke said:

There might be another issue here.  Why did Tramp records spend so much time and effort with the giveaway legit reissue in replicating the original (albeit they didn't quite get it right)?  Why didn't they design a completely different label?

Could it be that they were hoping that somewhere down the line unsuspecting buyers or wannabee OVO DJs would pay well over the odds for the single?

Heaven forbid

Why would Tramp records "hoping that somewhere down the line unsuspecting buyers or wannabee OVO DJs would pay well over the odds for the single?" benefit Tramp records?

[Chalky]

7 hours ago, chorleybloke said:

Their intentions may well have been honourable but that still doesn't explain to me why they decided to try to (unsuccessfully) replicate the original label design.

It was probably a deliberate mistake with the missing "&" etc and they probably realise there is a demand for wanting reissues on look-a-like labels rather than god forbid getting it on Grapevine.  I doubt Don is as bothered as some on here though.

[Soulboyrecords]

I still have several of the first 400 sealed Albums with the free 45, someone bought a 45 only from me today, I had to therefore break the album seal to get it out, and can definitively state that the legal 45 issue has a scratched not stamped Matrix

[Foi]

9 minutes ago, SoulBoyRecords said:

I still have several of the first 400 sealed Albums with the free 45, someone bought a 45 only from me today, I had to therefore break the album seal to get it out, and can definitively state that the legal 45 issue has a scratched not stamped Matrix

Cheers Mike for the input, it all helps to clarify. Come to the conclusion that there are two definitive ways of telling "legit" from "boot"

legit reissue = "Vanleer" written as one word before the word "Productions" on label, and a scratched in matrix in run out grooves

bootleg of the legit reissue (both types as there two boots circulating around by the looks of it!) = "Vanleer" is written as two words i.e. Van leer,  and at least one of the boots has the matrix machine stamped.

hope this helps all out there...

 

Edited November 27, 2016 by foi

[Casino76]

Thanks for that wish i would have known before i bought the one with the stamped in matrix, i am still trying to get a refund of pay pal, i have also removed the listing i had on ebay because of all the f.....g mither, glad we got it sorted. keeps martin happy.

Not you martin smith, my mate,

 

Steve.

Edited November 27, 2016 by 3b48

[Soulboyrecords]

21 minutes ago, foi said:

Cheers Mike for the input, it all helps to clarify. Come to the conclusion that there are two definitive ways of telling "legit" from "boot"

legit reissue = "Vanleer" written as one word before the word "Productions" on label, and a scratched in matrix in run out grooves

bootleg of the legit reissue (both types as there two boots circulating around by the looks of it!) = "Vanleer" is written as two words i.e. Van leer,  and at least one of the boots has the matrix machine stamped.

hope this helps all out there...

 

Yep Foi above is all correct ... here's a piccy of they one I just liberated before I post it ...

 

[Soulagogo]

Theres definitely an original in a collection in Derby

[Guest chorleybloke]

On 11/25/2016 at 20:44, JulianB said:

Phil dick and Pete Fowler both have copies ( Pete outbid me for his!!)

That'll teach you for being such a skinflint!

[Mick Shaxted]

On 11/26/2016 at 11:04, TattooDave said:

It was played at Hitsville in September, Pete Fowler played it.

the point i am getting at is how are we suppose her these great records when theres only one or two copys around ,unless its booted 

or chasing dj's around the country ,like i used to do years ago ,butch was my favorite dj which i followed all the place but other dj's had the some that he played a lot more records around then ,thats the point ,heres another  John Harris And The Soul Sayers - Hangin' In  or evan

where can i go and here this ,the point i am making is the records are so hard and rare to get or see never mind hear unless booted 

[Peter99]

18 minutes ago, micks2825 said:

the point i am getting at is how are we suppose her these great records when theres only one or two copys around ,unless its booted 

or chasing dj's around the country ,like i used to do years ago ,butch was my favorite dj which i followed all the place but other dj's had the some that he played a lot more records around then ,thats the point ,heres another  John Harris And The Soul Sayers - Hangin' In  or evan

where can i go and here this ,the point i am making is the records are so hard and rare to get or see never mind hear unless booted 

The point is you don't. Unless you're prepared to travel. If you're not then stick to your nostalgia nights with boring dj's playing boots of the top five hundred wanky northern records - probably half of which aren't even soul records. 

[Tattoodave]

11 hours ago, micks2825 said:

the point i am getting at is how are we suppose her these great records when theres only one or two copys around ,unless its booted 

or chasing dj's around the country ,like i used to do years ago ,butch was my favorite dj which i followed all the place but other dj's had the some that he played a lot more records around then ,thats the point ,heres another  John Harris And The Soul Sayers - Hangin' In  or evan

where can i go and here this ,the point i am making is the records are so hard and rare to get or see never mind hear unless booted 

That's just it, do you want to hear Cheatin' Kind every time you go out, I certainly don't, it's a rare gem, like glimpsing a bird that has been blown off coarse to the Twitchers, hauling in a big marlin for the keen fisherman, seeing a vintage Bugatti driving down the street to the petrol head or whatever metaphor floats your boat.  There are plenty of rare records, the joy of hearing maybe a handful at an allniter should be enough.  A DJ's set could possibly be full of such gems in some cases, but at the age of 57 I wouldn't want to be stuck on the dancefloor for an hour with every other knob that wants to dance to the endless supply of rare gems just because they are rare gems, I'm quite happy to dance to the ones that I want to, and just enjoy the sounds of those that I don't, otherwise I find Sundays a little to unbearable.

[Mick Shaxted]

1 hour ago, TattooDave said:

That's just it, do you want to hear Cheatin' Kind every time you go out, I certainly don't, it's a rare gem, like glimpsing a bird that has been blown off coarse to the Twitchers, hauling in a big marlin for the keen fisherman, seeing a vintage Bugatti driving down the street to the petrol head or whatever metaphor floats your boat.  There are plenty of rare records, the joy of hearing maybe a handful at an allniter should be enough.  A DJ's set could possibly be full of such gems in some cases, but at the age of 57 I wouldn't want to be stuck on the dancefloor for an hour with every other knob that wants to dance to the endless supply of rare gems just because they are rare gems, I'm quite happy to dance to the ones that I want to, and just enjoy the sounds of those that I don't, otherwise I find Sundays a little to unbearable.

fare comment ,the best allnighter at the moment i find is once a year and thats the springfield which pete hollender is running january 28th

[Chalky]

You can hear any record you want just about, every week, you just have to seek the events out and be prepared to travel.  Cheating Kind quite a few of the so called top jocks have the record and it can be heard most weekends at oldies and so called upfront.  Same for John Harris, quite a few have it now...these djs think they are upfront but they are ten years behind the curve, at certain events now they are over played, mainstream events they are still lesser known.  Seek and you shall find. 

Edited November 29, 2016 by chalky

[Tattoodave]

3 hours ago, micks2825 said:

fare comment ,the best allnighter at the moment i find is once a year and thats the springfield which pete hollender is running january 28th

Then you've never been to the 100 Club?  You should try, you may even enjoy yourself

[Phild]

I'll stick to my proper Sedgrick issue

 

[Kempy]

A fitting end to the story,me thinks

[Chalky]

9 hours ago, micks2825 said:

fare comment ,the best allnighter at the moment i find is once a year and thats the springfield which pete hollender is running january 28th

You don't get out much then do you 

[Casino76]

33 minutes ago, kempy said:

A fitting end to the story,me thinks

Its not finished yet.

[Peter99]

23 minutes ago, 3b48 said:

Its not finished yet.

I suspect it probably is.