I see a copy of Frank Wilson is being auctioned soon by John Manship , is this Kenny's copy ? Wonder what it will reach ? Best,Eddie

This thread is brilliant. Its just got me thinking... What if a BBC 1 off documentary on the 50th anniversary of Motown ... IN SEARCH OF THE SOULFUL GRAIL, THE WORLD MOST EXPENSIVE RECORD!...

You know the sort of thing,,, uncovering the story of the making of Do I Love You, tracking down and interviewing Berry Gordy and his staff at Motown, Frank Wilson himself, the Sousan angle, Kenny Burrell and the Northern Scene impact, culminating in an ex-motown studion cleaner aged 85 sitting on a boxful of issues and a dozen demos!!!!!!

KILLER VIEWING OR WHAT!!!!

I agree, definately a programme for collectors of anything, but especially vinyl.

I'm starting to get confused as to which copy is which. So:

Tim Brown's copy is from Martin Koppel, which he in turn got from Ron Murphy, which Ron got from a former mananger at Motown?

Kenny Burrell's copy came from Tim Brown, who bought it from Kev Roberts, who got it from Jon Woodcliffe, who got it from Les McCutcheon, who got it from Simon Soussan when he sold up, who in turn stole/borrowed it from Tom DePierro?

No, Tim Brown copy came from Kev Roberts who got it from Joanthan, who got it from Les etc.

This thread is brilliant. Its just got me thinking... What if a BBC 1 off documentary on the 50th anniversary of Motown ... IN SEARCH OF THE SOULFUL GRAIL, THE WORLD MOST EXPENSIVE RECORD!...

You know the sort of thing,,, uncovering the story of the making of Do I Love You, tracking down and interviewing Berry Gordy and his staff at Motown, Frank Wilson himself, the Sousan angle, Kenny Burrell and the Northern Scene impact, culminating in an ex-motown studion cleaner aged 85 sitting on a boxful of issues and a dozen demos!!!!!!

KILLER VIEWING OR WHAT!!!!

If it carries on like this, there'll certainly be a documentary on the auction of the record as, in record collecting terms, it's without a doubt the biggest story of the year, if not the millenium. I think the only things which have come close over the last few years have been the Quarrymen acetate (with 3 of the Beatles) and the Velvet Underground album acetate (with different mixes). However, I think Frank Wilson has much more of a story and probably has a wider appeal since it's effectively been in the public domain for 30 odd years and has even been beamed into everyone's living room via the Kentucky Fried Chicken adverts from a few years back. Plus the tale of the record kinda has everything - skullduggery, bootlegging, thievery, a selection of the world's most rabid collectors, that 15K price tag and the record itself which is 100% prime Northern Soul on the ultimate label. What's not to like?

Killer viewing as you say Andy!

This one will run and run........

Ian D

mmmmmmmm might not be too far fetched.

Barney Ales once said that he had several copies of Frank Wilson's "Do I Love You" - which, prior to him learning of its value to collectors, his wife sold at a Garage sale.

Sean

To say nothing about Berry Gordy's personal archive which is currently in temperature-controlled storage in L.A...........!

Ian D

If it carries on like this, there'll certainly be a documentary on the auction of the record as, in record collecting terms, it's without a doubt the biggest story of the year, if not the millenium. I think the only things which have come close over the last few years have been the Quarrymen acetate (with 3 of the Beatles) and the Velvet Underground album acetate (with different mixes). However, I think Frank Wilson has much more of a story and probably has a wider appeal since it's effectively been in the public domain for 30 odd years and has even been beamed into everyone's living room via the Kentucky Fried Chicken adverts from a few years back. Plus the tale of the record kinda has everything - skullduggery, bootlegging, thievery, a selection of the world's most rabid collectors, that 15K price tag and the record itself which is 100% prime Northern Soul on the ultimate label. What's not to like?

Killer viewing as you say Andy!

This one will run and run........

Ian D

First draft of the Press Release, Ian?

Sean

To say nothing about Berry Gordy's personal archive which is currently in temperature-controlled storage in L.A...........!

Ian D

It's documented that Berry G has a copy.

Sean

You said it Phil.

Vinyl prices are in decline at the moment (as are most things) and I guess this is why Pete speculates it would make less than half of what it previously sold for.

Reckon you should put your £25k bid in if you really want the record - and my guess is you'd win it.

As for where to put your money for a better return - I've been advised that September 09 would be the best time to invest in property. Meanwhile, if you're self employed... in a downturn market, it pays to advertise!

Sean

I don't think I'd risk it. Maybe more will turn up now

I'm just thinking of speculating in a couple of buy to let gaffs at the minute. maybe I'll wait until September

Phil

No, Tim Brown copy came from Kev Roberts who got it from Joanthan, who got it from Les etc.

Ah, so it's the other way around? Tim sold the Ron Murphy copy to Kenny? So Tim Brown has had both copies through his hands?

Edited February 3, 200916 yr by Matt Male

I agree, definately a programme for collectors of anything, but especially vinyl.

Just to add more fire to the flames....

Back in 91 I lived in Fort lauderdale Florida. I was writing songs and recording them one of which I decided to press up on vinyl. After asking a few bods at the local DJ Store I was directed to a small factory pressing plant just outside FL. on Federal Highway. They pressed up 1000 12" singles for me which sounded great. I asked the old guy there how long he had been in business he told me over 20 years. He also told me that during the mid 60's right up to the late 70's he had pressed up a lot of the Motown releases. Now I know this is probably a long shot but he had a wall covered in Soul/Tamla 45's Demos in his office, maybe he's still there.....

First draft of the Press Release, Ian?

Sean

LOL, you know me too well Sean!

However, it always helps a born bullshitter if there's actually a REAL story!

Ian D

I don't think I'd risk it. Maybe more will turn up now

I'm just thinking of speculating in a couple of buy to let gaffs at the minute. maybe I'll wait until September

Phil

Wise move mate.

Sean

Just to add more fire to the flames....

Back in 91 I lived in Fort lauderdale Florida. I was writing songs and recording them one of which I decided to press up on vinyl. After asking a few bods at the local DJ Store I was directed to a small factory pressing plant just outside FL. on Federal Highway. They pressed up 1000 12" singles for me which sounded great. I asked the old guy there how long he had been in business he told me over 20 years. He also told me that during the mid 60's right up to the late 70's he had pressed up a lot of the Motown releases. Now I know this is probably a long shot but he had a wall covered in Soul/Tamla 45's Demos in his office, maybe he's still there.....

I'm off to Florida in a few weeks. Would you like me to check?

Phil - Happy To Help!

Just to add more fire to the flames....

Back in 91 I lived in Fort lauderdale Florida. I was writing songs and recording them one of which I decided to press up on vinyl. After asking a few bods at the local DJ Store I was directed to a small factory pressing plant just outside FL. on Federal Highway. They pressed up 1000 12" singles for me which sounded great. I asked the old guy there how long he had been in business he told me over 20 years. He also told me that during the mid 60's right up to the late 70's he had pressed up a lot of the Motown releases. Now I know this is probably a long shot but he had a wall covered in Soul/Tamla 45's Demos in his office, maybe he's still there.....

......and can you see those little pink pigs flying around in the ether LOL.......

Stop dreaming Nik and get me a Soulful House CD full of killer gems!

Ian D

LOL, you know me too well Sean!

However, it always helps a born bullshitter if there's actually a REAL story!

Ian D

Yeh - but even then - as my old mentor used to say... never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

Sean

I'm off to Florida in a few weeks. Would you like me to check?

Phil - Happy To Help!

The wife won't let you Phil!

Ian D

The wife won't let you Phil!

Ian D

If I leave her in the outlet mall she won't even notice for a couple of days

If I leave her in the outlet mall she won't even notice for a couple of days

Good point! Cheap at whatever the price!

Ian D

I'm starting to get confused as to which copy is which. So:

Tim Brown's copy is from Martin Koppel, which he in turn got from Ron Murphy, which Ron got from a former mananger at Motown?

Kenny Burrell's copy came from Tim Brown, who bought it from Kev Roberts, who got it from Jon Woodcliffe, who got it from Les McCutcheon, who got it from Simon Soussan when he sold up, who in turn stole/borrowed it from Tom DePierro?

Billie Jean Brown definitely had one originally. I always thought that was the copy that Kenny Burrell ended up with. If not, then where is it now ???

It's documented that Berry G has a copy.

Sean

Then that would indeed be the Billie Jean Brown copy.

Bill Baron claimed he saw it once, but he's dead now so I can't ask him more about it obviously.

Is it just me who isn't getting excited about this?

I don't think I'd risk it. Maybe more will turn up now

I'm just thinking of speculating in a couple of buy to let gaffs at the minute. maybe I'll wait until September

Phil

Could be the next Clara Hardy

Is it just me who isn't getting excited about this?

cant speak for others pete but i think its a superb thread, this story about the record and how many are out there etc fscinates me, i love this kind of stuff

Ah, so it's the other way around? Tim sold the Ron Murphy copy to Kenny? So Tim Brown has had both copies through his hands?

Yes Tim had both copies through his hands.

I,ve got a picture somewhere holding both copies in warehouse.

Maria took one of Carl holding them at the same time.

cant speak for others pete but i think its a superb thread, this story about the record and how many are out there etc fscinates me, i love this kind of stuff

It's a fascinating - and well worn - story but the actual sale of the record, it's so far removed from reality that I have no interest in it at all.

no mate but my dog just dropped a turd that was longer than her about 3ft and it looked like a blind eel

now that was exciting

Is it just me who isn't getting excited about this?

Edited February 3, 200916 yr by GASHER

I'd reserve judgement on that just for the time being. IF it does go to auction, and its handled correctly froma an exposure point of view, then we may be just about to witness one of the most dramatic events in soul vinyl collecting history. The thing is that its not a rare soul 45 we're talking about, its an historical artifact which may hold kudos far beyond the boundaries of our collecting scene. If the marketing hype is executed correctly, I wouldn't be surprised to see it hit $100,000 +

The whole scenario interests me simply because I am curious to find out whether the copy is Ken's , Brownie's or the fabled third one ........

I sincerely hope it is the third copy , as it should end those holy grail discussions as to its' existance .........

Malc Burton

Edited February 4, 200916 yr by Malc Burton

The whole scenario interests me simply because I am curious to find out whether the copy is Ken's , Brownie's or the fabled third one ........

I sincerely hope it is the third copy , as it should end those holy grail discussions as to its' existance .........

Malc Burton

Maybe it will be a 4th copy if indeed Berry Gordy now has Billie Jean Brown's copy.

I'd reserve judgement on that just for the time being. IF it does go to auction, and its handled correctly froma an exposure point of view, then we may be just about to witness one of the most dramatic events in soul vinyl collecting history. The thing is that its not a rare soul 45 we're talking about, its an historical artifact which may hold kudos far beyond the boundaries of our collecting scene. If the marketing hype is executed correctly, I wouldn't be surprised to see it hit $100,000 +

Might make the 6 o'clock news on a slow day,definitely the local news, perhaps you could wangle a spot on the Antiques Roadshow I'm sur Eric Knowles could put across a good case for it.Stuart Marconi could mention it on Radio 2 . EXPOSURE is the key and before you know it 25k will be surpassed

Ah, so it's the other way around? Tim sold the Ron Murphy copy to Kenny? So Tim Brown has had both copies through his hands?

Yes.

Marc

I'm off to Florida in a few weeks. Would you like me to check?

Phil - Happy To Help!

You can check also with Tim there as hes already over in sunny Florida

Might make the 6 o'clock news on a slow day,definitely the local news, perhaps you could wangle a spot on the Antiques Roadshow I'm sur Eric Knowles could put across a good case for it.Stuart Marconi could mention it on Radio 2 . EXPOSURE is the key and before you know it 25k will be surpassed

If exposure is the key then a Coronation St storyline has to be the vehicle!

Perhaps Ken Barlow could recollect a moment from the 60's when he swapped a tune for a girlfriend with Mike Baldwin - cut to KB rummaging in the attic - and there it is a dusty FW minter - Ken barlow finally comes out on top!!!

Paul

It's a fascinating - and well worn - story but the actual sale of the record, it's so far removed from reality that I have no interest in it at all.

Pete, yes FW and all the explanations and stories that have been put out over the last thirty years are a little worn, but if this is a third copy, then surely you must have an interest in how it has come about Im waiting with baited breath

As for the sale and price, well its each to his own

On a footnote Pete, if you had been offered the third copy by a mystery seller, what price would you honestly expect, and dont say half the the figure of the last one, as I would bet my gnads it will easily surpass that figure (15k)

I have STILL not got a fooking clue what's going on BUT this thread is STILL great

Not too sure if I know this....anyone have a clip?

quote name='Val' date='Feb 4 09, 12:09 PM' post='992264']

Not too sure if I know this....anyone have a clip?

I know that Berry Gordy still buys motown stuff for his collection so he must have the other copy by now. When Candy Kay (of Motorcity records) sold up some men in suites arrived from LA to buy on "somebodys" behalf but she was`nt allowed to say who. Candy had one of, if not the best Motown collection anywhere. Whereas Ron collected 45s only Candy collected the whole lot,45s, Lps, acetates,EPs, foriegn stuff etc She never had a Frank Wilson though. Talking to Candy about Motown was an education...she talks in numbers rather than artists and titles, her knowledge is amazing!

Chris

Pete, yes FW and all the explanations and stories that have been put out over the last thirty years are a little worn, but if this is a third copy, then surely you must have an interest in how it has come about Im waiting with baited breath

As for the sale and price, well its each to his own

On a footnote Pete, if you had been offered the third copy by a mystery seller, what price would you honestly expect, and dont say half the the figure of the last one, as I would bet my gnads it will easily surpass that figure (15k)

I really don't know. As A Northern Soul record, before Tim and Kenny bought it, I would have rated it at more than a Don Gardner but less than a Mello Souls. I think it's actually worth maybe 8 grand in the real world.

Edited February 4, 200916 yr by Pete S

One question that I don't think has been discussed before. The reported 15K that Kenny B. paid for FW (only partially in cash I recall?), was this the winning bid in an auction or was this the asking price or was this the final offer that Tim Brown/Martin Koppell couldn't refuse?

In my opinion when compared to other NS records of equal rarity and quality it shouldn't be worth more than the 8K that Pete Smith estimates.

One question that I don't think has been discussed before. The reported 15K that Kenny B. paid for FW (only partially in cash I recall?), was this the winning bid in an auction or was this the asking price or was this the final offer that Tim Brown/Martin Koppell couldn't refuse?

In my opinion when compared to other NS records of equal rarity and quality it shouldn't be worth more than the 8K that Pete Smith estimates.

But Benji, when its placed in an auction its any bodys guess what its likely to finish at, as there will be plenty of bidders, that I am sure of and especialy on a John Manship auction, blimey every month we have people critisize the amount he manages to get on items as opposed to what we consider the going rate.

I think the KB deal was money and vinyl, not auctioned, bartered for me thinks,

This is a getting a bit like "Flog It"

You know what I mean, some woman comes in with a couple of old wall tiles made by some long gone obscure tile making comapny, the expert says "mmmm anything up to £400" auction starts and they go for £2400

Must see whats on the walls in me dad's bathroom

But Benji, when its placed in an auction its any bodys guess what its likely to finish at, as there will be plenty of bidders, that I am sure of and especialy on a John Manship auction, blimey every month we have people critisize the amount he manages to get on items as opposed to what we consider the going rate.

I think the KB deal was money and vinyl, not auctioned, bartered for me thinks,

I didn't say it will end up 8K on auction. I did say it's not worth more than 8K. I'm fully aware of how records can exceed their true value in auctions.

The reason why I don't join the "estimate the end price of FW" game is pretty simple: I can't be bothered.

I think FW is a fantastic record and with only 2 copies known to the public one of the rarest Northern Soul records too. But I'm not really excited about the news that a copy will soon be auctioned. If John Manship said a mint copy of the Mello Souls will be auctioned soon I'd be drooling...

I didn't say it will end up 8K on auction. I did say it's not worth more than 8K. I'm fully aware of how records can exceed their true value in auctions.

The reason why I don't join the "estimate the end price of FW" game is pretty simple: I can't be bothered.

I think FW is a fantastic record and with only 2 copies known to the public one of the rarest Northern Soul records too. But I'm not really excited about the news that a copy will soon be auctioned. If John Manship said a mint copy of the Mello Souls will be auctioned soon I'd be drooling...

And I say the same as what he just said, on all points

And I say the same as what he just said, on all points

both of you keep talking about the value of a record as completely inherent in 1) the rarity and 2) the sound. Obviously that isn't true as there are lots of extremely rare and good records that aren't worth much. This record has additional value due to its history on the scene, stories behind it, the fact that it is motown and the importance of motown, etc.

both of you keep talking about the value of a record as completely inherent in 1) the rarity and 2) the sound. Obviously that isn't true as there are lots of extremely rare and good records that aren't worth much. This record has additional value due to its history on the scene, stories behind it, the fact that it is motown and the importance of motown, etc.

It's just another record out of 30,000 northern soul records, it's great, but there are hundreds better. Before the internet, there would have been none of this fuss about the sale of a record.

One question that I don't think has been discussed before. The reported 15K that Kenny B. paid for FW (only partially in cash I recall?), was this the winning bid in an auction or was this the asking price or was this the final offer that Tim Brown/Martin Koppell couldn't refuse?

In my opinion when compared to other NS records of equal rarity and quality it shouldn't be worth more than the 8K that Pete Smith estimates.

never posted on any site before, but this will run and run and re-ignite peoples memories and interest in the music, as a outsider to the scene maybe a neutral opinion on this subject

john manship has a a world wide reputation to protect(how many records do u see for sale that quote the price as seen in manship etc)yes i know the majority of these people dont have a clue and thats why they use manships price, but it proves the point, therefore if its not tim browns copy(and he would be better of selling it on manship site than his own as he would get more money. On his(tim) contact us page it states we hope to update our list in the year 2004(what?).i dont think manship would list the warped copy as he himself states it throws the arm of, that leads to the fact there is a third copyand mr manship trust the seller enough to put his reputation on the line to tell the world it is going on auction on his site(he states we recieved a e mail)anybody who has a boot of this and does not have a clue as to whats what will think they have struck gold, and be on the phone(phone)to john, you are all a very close knit comunity u all know whos got what in their collection, and i cant believe that any collecter would not have let slip that they had a third copy, so we go back to the words john used "we had a e mail" only somebody who is important, and can really only prove themselves with a e mail address, would use this introduction to sell the record and intoduce themselves to mr manship, and my suggestion would be the ian levine has got spot on, its berry gordys,(why would he sell well the mans ego is legendary and what would give him greater pleasure than having a number one record in motowns 50th year)(dont all laugh only an opinion but how easy it it to get a number one these days if the publicity is spot on the interset generated will get it there 79p for a download )

love or loathe this record its got u all talking, even though it came on the scene well after it was established, its still the most talked about

And I say the same as what he just said, on all points

Strange world we live in, the most expensive record ever from the scene, and people cant be bothered or interested in what happens to it.

Strange world we live in, the most expensive record ever from the scene, and people cant be bothered or interested in what happens to it.

Whats the point, I wouldn't be able to bid for it so why would it be of interest to me? I'd love a new posh car but I can't afford one so I don't think about it.

never posted on any site before, but this will run and run and re-ignite peoples memories and interest in the music, as a outsider to the scene maybe a neutral opinion on this subject

john manship has a a world wide reputation to protect(how many records do u see for sale that quote the price as seen in manship etc)yes i know the majority of these people dont have a clue and thats why they use manships price, but it proves the point, therefore if its not tim browns copy(and he would be better of selling it on manship site than his own as he would get more money. On his(tim) contact us page it states we hope to update our list in the year 2004(what?).i dont think manship would list the warped copy as he himself states it throws the arm of, that leads to the fact there is a third copyand mr manship trust the seller enough to put his reputation on the line to tell the world it is going on auction on his site(he states we recieved a e mail)anybody who has a boot of this and does not have a clue as to whats what will think they have struck gold, and be on the phone(phone)to john, you are all a very close knit comunity u all know whos got what in their collection, and i cant believe that any collecter would not have let slip that they had a third copy, so we go back to the words john used "we had a e mail" only somebody who is important, and can really only prove themselves with a e mail address, would use this introduction to sell the record and intoduce themselves to mr manship, and my suggestion would be the ian levine has got spot on, its berry gordys,(why would he sell well the mans ego is legendary and what would give him greater pleasure than having a number one record in motowns 50th year)(dont all laugh only an opinion but how easy it it to get a number one these days if the publicity is spot on the interset generated will get it there 79p for a download )

love or loathe this record its got u all talking, even though it came on the scene well after it was established, its still the most talked about

Mmmm Interesting points made, got me thinking a tadd

Welcome to Soul Source

Whats the point, I wouldn't be able to bid for it so why would it be of interest to me? I'd love a new posh car but I can't afford one so I don't think about it.

Ahhhhaaaaaaaa but I bet you watch Top Gear

Not too sure if I know this....anyone have a clip?