Frank Wilson On Soul Auction

[Guest EType69]

i,m with you steve because the john manship posting number 69 is

saying two copies only . there is no time like the present to

begin the push on a third copy if thats what he is selling but no

just a thin disguise to protect the current owner.

I'm not saying it isn't a 3rd copy Pete, just that JM hasn't clarified either way. All part of the marketing build up I supose.

[Tabs]

Thanks Ian.

Do you know if it's vinyl or styrene and the $64,000 question, the condition?

John's being enigmatic and is maintaining a dignified silence as he's busy organising a 'Transporter' with a U.S. military escort to get the record to the 24 hour armed-guarded security depot where it will reside until the auction is concluded!

I spoke to John as I'm thrashing out an article on this and he's confirmed to me that this is a bona-fide 3rd copy from a private collector who wishes to remain anonymous, as pointed out earlier in the thread.

I'm sure any further details will be released when John confirms the auction dates......

Ian D

[Pete S]

Hard to tell from the scans , but the one on the right looks like a styrene press , and the left hand one looks like a vinyl press , do we know if they are both vinyl or styrene ? I've got a Carolyn Crawford " My smile is just a frown " Motown map demo with that quality control stamp , does that mean it used to belong in the Motown vault ? So many questions .........Best ,Eddie

If there's one vinyl and one styrene then surely there's been two separate pressing runs...they aren't going to swap materials if they are only making "six" copies

[Eddie Hubbard]

If there's one vinyl and one styrene then surely there's been two separate pressing runs...they aren't going to swap materials if they are only making "six" copies

Good point Pete .Best,Eddie

[Dave Thorley]

Just to add to the urban myth. Pops an old dealer who recently died, from Richmond, Virginia. Told me he had one, that several people in the area knew he had it and he had shown it to them and they would vouch to this fact. A collector from the west coast visited him, he showed it to him and some hours after the guy left, he realised that it had been stolen.

Also the guy that has the collectors shop in Allentown, PA, claimed to have one but would never show me it.

Then there was the copy that Ron Murphy from Detroit had, but I thought that was the one that Tim Brown had.

[Garethx]

There is no styrene press. The slight difference in the appearance of the two discs above comes from Kenny's copy being photographed and Tim's being scanned from the Record Collector article he did, the depth of the dip in the plastic has been flattened out somewhat in the image, but it's clearly still there. Also the typesetting is exactly the same on both and I can only conclude they're both clearly vinyl from the same source.

Looking at the images close up again I'd always thought that there was a figure (100 or 1000) next to the OK writing on the Tim Brown copy. On closer inspection it could be a set of initials: NW or DW.

[Paul R]

This is such a great thread.

We soul fans should not underestimate the wider interest in this record. Mentioned it to a mate of my sons who years ago I had given a CD to of Northern stuff including FW, he liked it. This guy is now a world famous recording artist and said he would be interested in bidding for FW, I did tell him the likely price but lucky bugger didn't bat an eye!!!

I did give him JM's web address, and John you owe me a pint if he makes the winning bid. Tell you who it is when I see you in a few weeks.

Point is, this record has charisma beyond NS and Motown fans. And if like my sons mate you have not heard it before it still has the power to move you. Its still got soul!

Dave Banks

Bleedin' 'ell Dave, Long time no hear? How's things in Devon, a bit snowey?

Paul(Jimmy) Rimmer

PS, still not keen on Chuck jackson "I've Got The Need"

[Pete S]

I spoke to John as I'm thrashing out an article on this and he's confirmed to me that this is a bona-fide 3rd copy from a private collector who wishes to remain anonymous, as pointed out earlier in the thread.

A reliable source has already contradicted that information

[Sean Hampsey]

PS, still not keen on Chuck jackson "I've Got The Need"

Has another one o' them turned up?

Just a thought!

If a third copy of FW has genuinely appeared... does that 'technically' devalue all three copies?

I'm guessing the answer is 'of course not.... as 3 is nearly as small a number as 2'....

but... then again....

Sean

Edited February 6, 2009 by Sean Hampsey

[Davebanks]

Bleedin' 'ell Dave, Long time no hear? How's things in Devon, a bit snowey?

Paul(Jimmy) Rimmer

PS, still not keen on Chuck jackson "I've Got The Need"

Plenty of snow here in Devon, but that just means more time at home reading the message boards here.

Mind you I am retired now so have bags of time to listen to quality soul like "I've got the need"

Cheers mate, must catch up some time.

Dave Banks

[Ian Dewhirst]

This is such a great thread.

We soul fans should not underestimate the wider interest in this record. Mentioned it to a mate of my sons who years ago I had given a CD to of Northern stuff including FW, he liked it. This guy is now a world famous recording artist and said he would be interested in bidding for FW, I did tell him the likely price but lucky bugger didn't bat an eye!!!

I did give him JM's web address, and John you owe me a pint if he makes the winning bid. Tell you who it is when I see you in a few weeks.

Point is, this record has charisma beyond NS and Motown fans. And if like my sons mate you have not heard it before it still has the power to move you. Its still got soul!

Dave Banks

I know at least 3 Pop/Rock performers, 2 radio DJ's and a famous artist who will want this too. I think it'll go way beyond most mortals expectations. As you say the tale has spread over the last 30 years and reached a lot of people outside the scene. You can bet there'll be a few people would like to display this in their studios/office/galleries......

Current Betting:

Damien Hirst Evens

Paul Weller 2-1

Mark Lamarr 3-1

Steve Craddock 5-1

Duffy 100-1

Ian D

[Drew3]

If the two known copies are plain light stone coloured, why have I seen more than once, an image showing the section of the lable with SOUL having a purple shading to it?????

Is this just someone playing around with the image as it were or have I imagined it!!!!?

Maybe I've just had too much red wine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KTF.

Drew.

[Guest familytree]

is he selling cos the secret is out it was stolen by Simon Souusan from Motown

Ha Ha Brilliant!

[Pete S]

I know at least 3 Pop/Rock performers, 2 radio DJ's and a famous artist who will want this too. I think it'll go way beyond most mortals expectations. As you say the tale has spread over the last 30 years and reached a lot of people outside the scene. You can bet there'll be a few people would like to display this in their studios/office/galleries......

Current Betting:

Damien Hirst Evens

Paul Weller 2-1

Mark Lamarr 3-1

Steve Craddock 5-1

Duffy 100-1

Ian D

Mark Lamarr won't buy it, he could have had my entire ska collection for 4 grand but wanted to cherry pick

[Pete S]

If the two known copies are plain light stone coloured, why have I seen more than once, an image showing the section of the lable with SOUL having a purple shading to it?????

Is this just someone playing around with the image as it were or have I imagined it!!!!?

Maybe I've just had too much red wine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KTF.

Drew.

Thought I had too!

[Garethx]

Thought I had too!

Like this?

[Ian Dewhirst]

Mark Lamarr won't buy it, he could have had my entire ska collection for 4 grand but wanted to cherry pick

Yeah, probably too much for him the tight git - I reckon his first loves are Ska/Rockabilly so I'll shortern the odds on him......but wait........look at that....... Phil Jupitus and Elton John just jumped into the equation LOL....

Is there a comparable Ska holy grail?

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

Ha Ha Brilliant!

Luckily for all the statute of limitations expired circa '82 for THAT copy LOL.....

Got me thinking though whether there's ever been an action to reclaim an expensive promo by the record companies? I had a run in with Jeff Buckley's estate a few years ago for trying to flog a T.P. of "Grace" on E-Bay and they threatened me with expensive lawyers and a potential lawsuit...........

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

Like this?

Imagine if a real one of those came on the market. That'd shatter a few myths wouldn't it?

Ian D

[Phild]

If the two known copies are plain light stone coloured, why have I seen more than once, an image showing the section of the lable with SOUL having a purple shading to it?????

Is this just someone playing around with the image as it were or have I imagined it!!!!?

Maybe I've just had too much red wine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KTF.

Drew.

I made a Soul issue label for the SWONS video. Then stuck it on the demo

[Guest familytree]

I'm starting to get confused as to which copy is which. So:

Tim Brown's copy is from Martin Koppel, which he in turn got from Ron Murphy, which Ron got from a former mananger at Motown?

Kenny Burrell's copy came from Tim Brown, who bought it from Kev Roberts, who got it from Jon Woodcliffe, who got it from Les McCutcheon, who got it from Simon Soussan when he sold up, who in turn stole/borrowed it from Tom DePierro?

Ha Ha... sooo funny! I was trying to plot the same journey... then my fella said Jonathon (nottingham) sold a copy for £500 to someone.. would that be the jon you mention who sold it to kev roberts... I need to know the order of things Im losin it!

[Guest familytree]

If DW turns out to be Dick Whittington, then I'll understand why this record is so expensive.

Howlin! i should be in bed but i cant leave it... love the Miss Marple investigations on comparing the 2 copies side by side thus determining where they were pressed... genius!

[Guest familytree]

Looking at the images close up again I'd always thought that there was a figure (100 or 1000) next to the OK writing on the Tim Brown copy. On closer inspection it could be a set of initials: NW or DW.

[Sean Hampsey]

Like this?

As you know Gareth, that's the forgery (mock up) label.

Sean

[vaultofsouler]

Well from the link to Goldmine's blog in the News Articles section it seems from the write up (part of it below) not to be "a third copy".... the gist of the blog indicates it's going to be Kenny's copy up for auction.... although I know folk have stated within this thread that Kenny said it wasn't for sale....

More "ifs and buts" to add further intrigue to it then .... and of course add several more pages to this thread now ....

Holy grails don't get any holier than this, especially for Northern Soul acolytes.

Going up for auction, starting March 14, is one of only two known copies and the only one in acceptable playing condition of Frank Wilson's "Do I Love You (Indeed I Do)," considered by many to be the most valuable ultra-rare 45 record in the world. U.K. dealer John Manship (www.raresoulman.co.uk), who specializes in Northern Soul rarities, is holding the auction of this prized item which stands to fetch somewhere in the neighborhood of $40,000.

Manship thinks it may " I repeat, may " go all the way to $100,000 (some think the writing on the label could lower the value, but others don't believe it will affect it in the slightest).

"I definitely have two bidders willing to go to £25K U.K.," says Manship. "And there's a U.S. guy who wants to own it."

> LINK TO THE FULL GOLDMINE BLOG <

Edited February 7, 2009 by vaultofsouler

[boba]

Well from the link to Goldmine's blog in the News Articles section ( > here < ) it seems from the write up (part of it below) not to be "a third copy".... the gist of the blog indicates it's going to be Kenny's copy up for auction.... although I know folk have stated within this thread that Kenny said it wasn't for sale.... more "ifs and buts" to add to it then ....

Holy grails don't get any holier than this, especially for Northern Soul acolytes.

Going up for auction, starting March 14, is one of only two known copies and the only one in acceptable playing condition of Frank Wilson's "Do I Love You (Indeed I Do)," considered by many to be the most valuable ultra-rare 45 record in the world. U.K. dealer John Manship (www.raresoulman.co.uk), who specializes in Northern Soul rarities, is holding the auction of this prized item which stands to fetch somewhere in the neighborhood of $40,000.

Manship thinks it may " I repeat, may " go all the way to $100,000 (some think the writing on the label could lower the value, but others don't believe it will affect it in the slightest).

"I definitely have two bidders willing to go to £25K U.K.," says Manship. "And there's a U.S. guy who wants to own it."

> LINK TO THE FULL GOLDMINE BLOG <

I wouldn't take any information that that guy writes in the blog as somehow being more authoritative than anyone in this thread, I think he's paraphrasing stuff already said in this thread.

[vaultofsouler]

I wouldn't take any information that that guy writes in the blog as somehow being more authoritative than anyone in this thread, I think he's paraphrasing stuff already said in this thread.

I wasn't suggesting he is any more authoritative on the topic than the members on here Bob.... was just pointing out yet another slant, theory, whatever you want to call it, on the auction of a FW.... with (supposedly) JM quotes.....

Anyway, I reckon by the time this thread, and other write ups elsewhere, concludes there will probably be more words than in War & Peace ....

[kevinsoulman]

Not that this has a lot of relevance but the UK Tamla Motown 1979 issue is a different take. Strings are almost mixed out.

i always thought the 80s re release was a diffo take too thread on here some where

kev

[Guest]

Just to add to the urban myth. Pops an old dealer who recently died, from Richmond, Virginia. Told me he had one, that several people in the area knew he had it and he had shown it to them and they would vouch to this fact. A collector from the west coast visited him, he showed it to him and some hours after the guy left, he realized that it had been stolen.

Also the guy that has the collectors shop in Allentown, PA, claimed to have one but would never show me it.

Then there was the copy that Ron Murphy from Detroit had, but I thought that was the one that Tim Brown had.

Dave,

I just remembered the guy who sat next to me at school, his sister had one...or was it Jackie Wilson, no it was definitely Frank.

I knew "Pops" real well, sad to hear that he's passed, i visited "Pops" regular over many many years, he never had Frank Wilson...why the hell would he? this thread is now getting ridiculous.

Everyone seems to be forgetting there are several rare 45s on Motown group of labels as rare and rarer than Frank Wilson 45.

Mary Wells - Motown 1061 (they made the picture sleeve for that one, and is considered the rarest picture sleeve in the world))

Isley Brothers - VIP

Patrice Holloway - VIP

Chris Clark on VIP

Earl Van Dyke on Soul 35009 to name but a few Motown related real rare uns...and there are more.

The fact remains since 1965 there has been 2 copies known to this scene and one of them is damaged.

Every record, just like a human being has a unique start to life and a unique finish; some are common, some are inexplicably rare, everyone on this thread can theorize all they like i don't know for sure why it's rare and I don't think anyone else does. Frank Wilson would be the best and possibly the only man to ask to get somewhere near the truth...

One thought to leave you with, the Motown powers had just told one of the finest ever Motown vocalists, Eddie Holland "no more records for you Eddie just writing and producing for you from now on." Why would they release a 45 by Frank Wilson a relatively new man to the fold and a writer/producer as well. That would be upsetting a happy ship (wouldn't it?) then if it went out and had a hit! Needless to say Eddie was a very important part of the Motown team.

Whatever the reason, the 45 is a continuously validated serious rarity of the highest stature. And yes there'll be a truck load of people who'll say i had one my mate had one, i know someone who knew someone who had one, just like the thread on the Len Barry - It's That Time Of The Year - LP.

No offense Dave, I'm sure you were taking the "myth" a bit, but some could "myth" the point.

john

Edited February 7, 2009 by john manship

[Steve L]

John I think you could kill the speculaton stone dead quite easily by saying which copy is coming up for auction. If you dont want to as seems obvious - when is the auction going to start? At least we'll know then from the description.

[Val (Chunky)]

John I think you could kill the speculaton stone dead quite easily by saying which copy is coming up for auction. If you dont want to as seems obvious - when is the auction going to start? At least we'll know then from the description.

yes John, stop taking the 'myth'

[Rbman]

Dave,

.....I knew "Pops" real well, sad to hear that he's passed, i visited "Pops" regular over many many years, he never had Frank Wilson...why the hell would he? this thread is now getting ridiculous.......

No offense Dave, I'm sure you were taking the "myth" a bit, but some could "myth" the point.

john

So what are you saying?...Dave's recollection of his conversation with Pops is a "myth" or Pops' story was disingenuous?

And why would he not have a copy?

Edited February 7, 2009 by Rbman

[Andy Rix]

""Got me thinking though whether there's ever been an action to reclaim an expensive promo by the record companies? I had a run in with Jeff Buckley's estate a few years ago for trying to flog a T.P. of "Grace" on E-Bay and they threatened me with expensive lawyers and a potential lawsuit....""

Good question Ian ....With specific reference to Frank Wilson the answer is yes .... Motown did take steps, many years ago, to reclaim the 45 but those they approached were not in possession of the disc. They eventually gave up trying

Andy

[Steve G]

So what are you saying?...Dave's recollection of his conversation with Pops is a "myth" or Pops' story was disingenuous?

And why would he not have a copy?

I actually have sympathy with John on this....you know Martin the amount of people in the US that claim to have had this and that - a lot of it is just hype and BS at the end of the day. Don't know "Pops", but have seen so many of our special friends in the US used record industry and heard their claims to fame over the years. I think if someone had a third copy for years we'd have heard about it somehow - however shy and retiring they are.

Still a fascinating read, and an auction we'll be watching with interest - even for those of us who don't personally want the record.

That being said, I can think of at least one Motown fan in London who'd probably be bidding on this.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Steve G

[Chalky]

I actually have sympathy with John on this....you know Martin the amount of people in the US that claim to have had this and that - a lot of it is just hype and BS at the end of the day. Don't know "Pops", but have seen so many of our special friends in the US used record industry and heard their claims to fame over the years. I think if someone had a third copy for years we'd have heard about it somehow - however shy and retiring they are.

Still a fascinating read, and an auction we'll be watching with interest - even for those of us who don't personally want the record.

That being said, I can think of at least one Motown fan in London who'd probably be bidding on this.

I agree with you Steve.

There was a rumour that a west coast Dj had copy of FW, first heard that one back in the 80's. Plenty of myths/hysteria/hype surrounding this record and many other records on the scene. If they were fact I think with the price the record commands many of the mythical ones would have surfaced by now

[Soultown andy]

Well according to ginger last nite its kennys copy thats for sale and he is off up to see kenny tonite,so have no reason to doubt his word.

[Drew3]

What was the actual condition of the KB copy as he bought it.

Kenny plays it out and I think he played it a year or two ago at Bury Town Hall nighter when I was there.

Had it been played out much or played privately a great deal before he got it?

Was the record mint, mint minus, VG or what, before Kenny had FW write on it?

KTF.

Drew.

[Sunnysoul]

Dave,

One thought to leave you with, the Motown powers had just told one of the finest ever Motown vocalists, Eddie Holland "no more records for you Eddie just writing and producing for you from now on." Why would they release a 45 by Frank Wilson a relatively new man to the fold and a writer/producer as well. That would be upsetting a happy ship (wouldn't it?) then if it went out and had a hit! Needless to say Eddie was a very important part of the Motown team.

john

John, I'm curious where you quoted/paraphrased that remark about Eddie Holland, but Eddie Holland himself has said in interviews several times that, basically, he just wasn't cut out to be a live/stage performer, and the fact that he and Holland - Dozier had been hitting big with the Supremes really made him make up his own mind that he was better off behind the scenes, rather than behind the microphone.

I said it in my earlier post ... that in 1965, Frank Wilson would still have been a very minor figure in the whole Motown set up, not to mention being located a long way away out in LA, and it would be some time before Berry Gordy would realise the true value of the Motown LA office and sow the seed in his own mind of actually moving the company to LA. Let's not forget how Motown treated Brenda Holloway (who was based in LA, for those on here that didn't know) through '64-67, or rather, how they took her and her talent for granted.

I also said that Gordy was the arch pragmatist. If he and Motown's marketing people thought that they could have a million seller with "Do I Love You" they would have released it quick smart ! And that's no matter what Frank himself has gone down in print as saying he recalls as regards his conversation with Berry outside the 20 Grand Club, as set out in some of the earlier posts on here (no disrespect to Frank, but how many artists have recalled the old days through rose coloured glasses and got their recollections plainly wrong?). And if Berry was impressed by Frank's work on the Miracles' "Whole Shakin In My Heart", he would have been disappointed by its chart performance, as it was one of the Miracles smallest chart hits of the time.

It's likely that dropping Frank Wilson from the release schedule was a purely commercial decision. They needed to put all their promotional muscle behind the established hit making artists, not compromise them by shifting focus to Frank Wilson. That's probably why artists like Tommy Good and even Marv Johnson never got any promotional push. Same with the Velvelettes' magnificent records; there was only so much room for hitmaking girl groups on the roster !

And realistically, the magnificence of "Do I Love You" would not have been quite so clear cut to Motown's Quality Control Dept in 1965 in light of hits like Going To A Go Go and Dancing In The Street .... as it was to us Northern soul fans decades later...

So, if "Do I Love You" goes to auction and fetches a massive price and all the publicity that goes with it (and has already been generated!), then let's just see how soon it is before more copies begin to surface in no time at all ...

As they say in this world, money talks !!!

[Steve G]

What was the actual condition of the KB copy as he bought it.

Kenny plays it out and I think he played it a year or two ago at Bury Town Hall nighter when I was there.

Had it been played out much or played privately a great deal before he got it?

Was the record mint, mint minus, VG or what, before Kenny had FW write on it?

KTF.

Drew.

Hi Drew, with a record like this.....it either plays without noise and jumps, or it doesn't. Records can be very risiliant - one rarity I got from Sam has been through at least 5-6 hands and been played regularly for years by it's various owners, and yet despite that still looks and sounds great.

[Steve G]

Well according to ginger last nite its kennys copy thats for sale and he is off up to see kenny tonite,so have no reason to doubt his word.

Interesting so still only the second copy then.....despite the stuff on here about it being a 3rd one. I have serious doubts as to whether a 3rd copy would ever surface at this point.

[davidwapples]

if john doesnt want to tell us which one of the 2 copies is up for sale then he could always tell us which one isnt

[Marc Forrest]

Interesting so still only the second copy then.....despite the stuff on here about it being a 3rd one.

..which was brought up only because "someone" said on here Kenny said to him he would not be selling his and therefore the one Manship has is not his...furthermore JM said that he only took the scan from kennys copy (with Kenny´s explicit permission to do so).

I have enough grey hairs already and will let this thread rest in peace until the copy is being auctioned, won´t take part in it myself anyway...

Edited February 7, 2009 by Marc Forrest

[Guest Glawsters Best]

This is better than a Agatha Christie best seller

[Marc Forrest]

...anyone in need for a new watch ?...

you can order now...lines are busy...

001-5-4-3-2-1

or

001-6-3-4-5-7-8-9

[Dave Fleming]

Everyone seems to be forgetting there are several rare 45s on Motown group of labels as rare and rarer than Frank Wilson 45.

Mary Wells - Motown 1061 (they made the picture sleeve for that one, and is considered the rarest picture sleeve in the world))

Isley Brothers - VIP

Patrice Holloway - VIP

Chris Clark on VIP

Earl Van Dyke on Soul 35009 to name but a few Motown related real rare uns...and there are more.

john

Reading the above and wondered how rare this was compared to those listed?.

The Majestics-Say You-VIP 25028..........AKA:(Monitors-Say You-VIP 25028),

Also are the any white promos of the "Monitors" on VIP 25028,

as i have multi coloured promo of this 45.

Dave f.............

[Guest Bicks]

Slightly off the point, but, if Berry Gordy was so 'anti' the release of Do I Love You, how come it got a UK release?

[Chalky]

Slightly off the point, but, if Berry Gordy was so 'anti' the release of Do I Love You, how come it got a UK release?

To make money, it was business at the end of the day and if something is popular cash in on it.

[Rob Wigley]

To make money, it was business at the end of the day and if something is popular cash in on it.

Just think how much Motown lost on the SS bootlegs--( Eddie Foster around 1977-78)

heard talk of 30,000 pressed . It was a huge record in its day so the Tamla Motown release was slightly after the fact.

But remember it was covered up for ages and there was as much talk about it then as now--

I remember a Black Echoes article, who is Eddie Foster ? with betting being laid down for the real artist-

It really is "The Holy Grail" of Northern / Motown Collecting

Just put the lottery on again £7 Million jackpot tonight-

Rob

[KevH]

Going back to JM's post re: Eddie Holland's possible influence,would Frank Wilson have also thought of himself as purely a writer at that time ?.

If DILY had been commercially successful,a follow up would have been ineviatable.The thought of a minor tour supporting bigger Motown names probably wouldn't have appealed to him.

[Rocker]

So is JM well known for his April Fools?