Frank Wilson On Soul Auction

[Guest Una Scot-Oz]

I know this seems to be a "boy's" thread but apparently Kenny's copy has a different intro. That's why Motown wanted to borrow it when they were making the CD compilation as they didn't have the intro on their master tapes. He told me that when I saw him last year.

As far as the whole concept of the auction that John explained, that went right over my head

Anyway, good thread. And I don't think Kenny would ever sell it.

[Pete S]

Andy's post is a good one, but the point about the actual number of copies pressed is one of pure speculation.

Record pressing at the time wasn't like offset litho printing: it wasn't a case of stopping a machine while it was spewing out hundreds of copies of any item: stampers could be used one at a time for vinyl records (I believe styrene pressing is a different process: the plastic is injected into the stamping mould rather than placed by hand onto the pressing surface). It is and was eminently possible to press single copies of records: there is a fascinating website dedicated to one-off pressings of records; mostly coloured or composite coloured vinyl pressings done privately by pressing plant workers of records they took a particular shine to or by artists they were fans of. It's possible that pressing plant workers pressed 'overs' of the Frank Wilson record but given that he was an unknown at the time unlikely.

If the order from Motown was for six copies then six copies plus one or two for the factory files would have been pressed. Once the order came through from Motown for the pressing run to be abandoned the stampers would have been destroyed and maybe the file copies too.

The Frank Wilson's aren't test pressings though, they are finished label demos like any other Soul label releases, there's a box of these out there somewhere, there has to be.

[Modernsoulsucks]

Dave Godin told me years ago that as Berry owned Motown musics 'publishing' (Jobete) he would have been obliged to keep an archive (file) copy of all recorded work. "Do I Love You" is a Jobete (Berry Gordy) published work, and although EMI Music paid $132 million to Berry in 1997 for 50% of the Publishing, I doubt they'd have split his file copy in half :-)

In addition he was sure Berry kept a 'personal' copy of everything. Ian also alludes to this earlier in the thread.

Its all speculation - certainly not hard fact - but a pretty educated one I'd have said, not forgetting that Dave was very close to the inner sanctum of how things worked at Hitsville, back then.

Heard a few fans suggest that Berry will have had his own copy - and even that there are other copies of SOUL S-35019 in hardcore Motown collections. Seem to recall that Trevor Swaine wrote a fascinating article about it some 15+ years ago.

Here's someone else that thinks Berry will have had a FW:

Robb K (Soulful Detroit)

I'm SURE that Frank Wilson DIDN'T ever get a copy of Soul 35019, as only 6 copies were ever pressed (the six pressing plant test pressings. In the early '70s, I saw one copy in The Motown Record File, and one copy in The Jobete Music Record File (both were "missing" already in 1979). Berry Gordy must have had one for himself, and that already takes up half the six. Ron Murphy stated that the pressing plant always kept 2. That leaves only ONE OTHER copy floating around Motown. The record was "pulled back" even BEFORE the first DJ issue press run. Berry decided he didn't want Wilson to have a recording career at that time, as he was too valuable to Motown as a producer. They had a lot of plans for him, and moved him to Detroit (from L.A. to make that happen). No way he would have been handed one of the pressing plant masters. I doubt that he knew at the time, that the 6 records were pressed at all. He was told that his record was cancelled. He was told the same thing as Andre Williams and gino parks were told about their scheduled Miracle releases ("Sorry. Your record was cancelled.")

Guess all will be revealed in the fullness of time.

Sean

I've known Robb K for nearly 30 years and he is a great one for constructing theories based on available limited evidence which far from being "sure" is purely speculation.For instance he had me looking for non-existent 45s back in the early 80's. He just thought they ought to have come out!!

He was Tom de Pierro's mate and silent partner in Airwave label [Mel Carter,Delia Renee etc] and was involved in the "From the Vaults" project if only as a sounding board for what tracks to include as his knowledge of Motown is second to none.

From what I gather LA motown did have a copy or two. Whilst working there Tom "acquired" one of those. I met Tom in 1980 and he told me that far from loaning the 45 to Sousson he'd made the mistake of leaving him in his office unattended and didn't realise it was missing till long after. He had a few shelves full of 45s.

It was via Tom and Robb that those first unissued Motown tracks got played back at Stafford.

I must admit that I veer towards Andy K's assertion that for a finished demo product 6 seems extremely low but then there's no definite evidence that there were more other than the easy availability of most Motown demo copies which suggests that usually they were produced in large numbers. There is however the precedent of the Patrice Holloway 45 on VIP although Im not sure how many copies of that exist or if it's only a demo or regular issue.

Finally whilst it's interesting that FW is coming up for sale, the fever-pitch of speculation surrounding it is hard to understand when I can't imagine too many if any on here getting involved.

ROD

[Ian Dewhirst]

Andy's post is a good one, but the point about the actual number of copies pressed is one of pure speculation.

Record pressing at the time wasn't like offset litho printing: it wasn't a case of stopping a machine while it was spewing out hundreds of copies of any item: stampers could be used one at a time for vinyl records (I believe styrene pressing is a different process: the plastic is injected into the stamping mould rather than placed by hand onto the pressing surface). It is and was eminently possible to press single copies of records: there is a fascinating website dedicated to one-off pressings of records; mostly coloured or composite coloured vinyl pressings done privately by pressing plant workers of records they took a particular shine to or by artists they were fans of. It's possible that pressing plant workers pressed 'overs' of the Frank Wilson record but given that he was an unknown at the time unlikely.

If the order from Motown was for six copies then six copies plus one or two for the factory files would have been pressed. Once the order came through from Motown for the pressing run to be abandoned the stampers would have been destroyed and maybe the file copies too.

Just to clarify the original story following some research and a couple of calls to those who know, the story regarding the 6 copies came from renowned Motown collector and font of all in-depth knowledge about Motown, the late Ron Murphy (the owner of the copy of Frank Wilson which passed to Martin Koppell and which now resides with Tim Brown). It was Ron Murphy who spoke to directly to the owner of ARP - the pressing plant where F.W. was pressed, when he tried to locate another copy of F.W. and the owner confirmed that just the 6 copies were pressed. Ron was in the business and if anyone could have unearthed more copies it was him.

Ron Murphy had a reputation for knowing what was talking about and there's no reason to disbelieve him, so THAT'S where the 6 copies story comes from!

R.I.P. RON MURPHY

His career could be described as standing in the shadows of the shadows of Motown " as well as the shadows of soul, R&B and techno. Ron Murphy, legendary Detroit music producer, record collector and mastering/cutting plant operator, has died of an apparent heart attack. He was 58 years old.

Bulletins started popping up on message boards Saturday night, when news of Murphy's passing shocked Detroit's techno community. House music producer Mike Grant was among the first to post; DJ Brian Gillespie had an appointment to go by Murphy's Sound Enterprises mastering studio on Merriman in Westland to pick up a collection of vintage Detroit soul master recordings last Monday.

Murphy's career spanned decades and generations of Detroit's urban DIY music communities, beginning with Motown and other independent soul and R&B labels in the late '60s. As an audio engineer, he manned the classic reverb and echo units during Isaac Hayes' recording of "Walk On By" in 1971 at United Sound. When times were leaner, Murphy sold insurance to struggling soul musicians.

Murphy came to the attention of the techno community in the '80s when the likes of Derrick May and Juan Atkins stumbled upon his Westside cutting plant, then called National Sound Corporation. Murphy owned a vintage cutting lathe from the '30s and agreed to master and cut the metal prototype records, dub plates, then used to manufacture techno's ubiquitous 12-inc single. His warm, full sound and attention to a thick but not too loud kick drum arguably gave many a techno record the soul part of its icy soul. He pioneered pressing lock-grooves on records, which allowed DJs to mix to a single repeated loop. Murphy's discography reads like a who's who of techno: Underground Resistance, Jeff Mills, the Throw/Twilight 76/Database electro labels and countless others all went to Murphy.

Murphy's meticulous collecting and archiving of vintage soul records, master tapes and original pressings made a visit to NSC a visit to a one-man Motown Museum. Producers would come in with a DAT tape or CD to cut a dub plate for a new record on Murphy's cutting lathe, only to be treated to stories of, say, Marvin Gaye muse Tammi Terrell's wild exploits with Eddie Kendricks as well as other nuggets of vintage lore. Remembers Gillespie: "He said one thing I'll never forget. 'Success to those soul musicians back then was a diamond pinkie ring, a white girlfriend and a Cadillac.' Now you hear that and you laugh, but you have to remember, back in the '60s, that was revolutionary--socially, economically, culturally." Murphy's stories made legendary artists people, not just icons from black-and-white photographs, which could inspire as much as entertain.

Still, it was Murphy's ear that was his greatest gift to Detroit techno producers "that and his affordability. As Underground Resistance's Mike Banks told England's DJ Mag in 2005, "Ron Murphy helped many a fledgling Detroit producer's early career. When they had a fucked up, out-of-phase, poorly-segued, four- or eight- track piece-of-s*** production, he would fix it. He would make it competitive to the [stuff] coming out of New York or Chicago. He did miracles with some of those records--ours included. "

Adds Gillespie, "He knew a hit when he heard one, whether it was an R&B record or a techno record. When he first heard [UR's] 'Jaguar,' he knew it was going to be a hit. When he first heard [Detroit Grand Pubahs'] 'Sandwiches' he knew it would be a hit."

And though Murphy wasn't a household name, he was just fine with that. "He was always like, 'Whaddya wanna hear all these old stories for?' Gillespie remembers. "He was the only guy from back then left who wasn't bitter.

"He was the soul of Detroit music for a lot of us." --Hobey Echlin

Ian D

Edited February 6, 2009 by Ian Dewhirst

[Guest]

Anything's possible. However, Motown was very much Berry's fiefdom at the time so the 6 copy theory is entirely possible. We know where 2 of 'em are. There's now a 3rd copy, there's a good chance that Berry has another 2 and the final copy could well be residing in the U.S. national music archives! Helluva story!

Ian D

Edited February 6, 2009 by Malc Burton

[Ian Dewhirst]

Finally whilst it's interesting that FW is coming up for sale, the fever-pitch of speculation surrounding it is hard to understand when I can't imagine too many if any on here getting involved.

ROD

But they'll all want the T-Shirt Rod!

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

Having not kept up with the thread in recent days , has it been confirmed that it is a third copy that is up for sale ?

Malc Burton

Yep!

Ian D

[Steve G]

But for Ron Murphy's account (thank's Ian) I would have to agree with the view that suggests that a higher number were probably pressed with all the artwork etc. that went into them. For comparrison If you think back to that thing on Lime (same backing as Jones Brothers but name eludes me right now) that came out on a UA test pressing - they did 10 and they didn't put all the credits on - just a UA logo etc.and minimal detail.

Having said that I think on the balance of probability that multiple copies were pressed, Berry probably had his "chat" with Frank, and then nearly all copies were "destroyed" before they got out - it won't be the first time that type of thing has happened.

So Ron has cleared up what we would expect to normally happen I guess

I agree highly unlikely further copies will surface everyone has been after this for 30 years including all those Motown collectors with their inside "contacts" etc.so it is an ultimate rarity.

All that being said there are records higher up my wants list

Edited February 6, 2009 by Steve G

[Garethx]

The Frank Wilson's aren't test pressings though, they are finished label demos like any other Soul label releases, there's a box of these out there somewhere, there has to be.

I didn't say they were test pressings Pete, although effectively they were.

Manufacturing a vinyl test pressing uses exactly the same process as manufacturing the final product: that's the entire point of them, to see if the stamper produced from the master lacquer exhibits any problems in terms of quality.

Also, we need to be clear about how labels were produced. The pressing plant would have had a large quantity of 'blanks' for a client like Motown: essentially the finished record label minus the credits particular to the individual release, all printed using four colour process with a screen ruling to produce the logotype and the colour background, which would then be overprinted (using offset lithography) with the credits in black ink for this vintage of Soul label release (silver in the case of Gordy and Motown releases). The credits on styrene records were overprinted using letter-press rather than offset lithography (it would be great if any printers on the board can explain the difference between the processes).

If you're test pressing a record for a client who retains blanks at the factory you would tend to use the blanks. I know Atlantic had dedicated test pressing labels, but can't remember seeing a similar thing for Motown.

[Guest inspirations001]

The Frank Wilson's aren't test pressings though, they are finished label demos like any other Soul label releases, there's a box of these out there somewhere, there has to be.

i'm with you on this, surely it wouldn't be woth the time and money to just run 6 copies off. i personally think all those involved have been a tad inventive with the truth of what happened. it was 1965, and the record was unearthed when 77? could you remember what you were doing 12 yrs ago. i can barely remember 12 mins ago! the record was probably issue too! must be lots of em out there. but who cares!

[macca]

What an amazing thread. We'll all have been committed by the time it ends!

[Ian Dewhirst]

i'm with you on this, surely it wouldn't be woth the time and money to just run 6 copies off. i personally think all those involved have been a tad inventive with the truth of what happened. it was 1965, and the record was unearthed when 77? could you remember what you were doing 12 yrs ago. i can barely remember 12 mins ago! the record was probably issue too! must be lots of em out there. but who cares!

Yep, you're right. Just found a 25 count box of issues in my shed!

Damn, all that time spent chasing a myth........

Ian D

[Phild]

If you're test pressing a record for a client who retains blanks at the factory you would tend to use the blanks. I know Atlantic had dedicated test pressing labels, but can't remember seeing a similar thing for Motown.

I have a few for Soul, Tamla and Gordy releases.

They are either totally blank, Capitol Records manufacturing, ARP, Sonic Sounds and Monarch generic with master number, sometimes label no and sometimes title too.

These are QC Test pressings. The pressings that are done to check sound levels, skip etc before going to white label promo which is a promotional tool to get early airplay and build up demand prior to release.

So it is entirely possible, indeed likely, that a QC test pressing on an ARP generic label exists or at leat existed somewhere.

Phil

[Ian Dewhirst]

I have a few for Soul, Tamla and Gordy releases.

They are either totally blank, Capitol Records manufacturing, ARP, Sonic Sounds and Monarch generic with master number, sometimes label no and sometimes title too.

These are QC Test pressings. The pressings that are done to check sound levels, skip etc before going to white label promo which is a promotional tool to get early airplay and build up demand prior to release.

So it is entirely possible, indeed likely, that a QC test pressing on an ARP generic label exists or at leat existed somewhere.

Phil

Mmmmm. I've had few of those on Soul Intention SL-001 from a dodgy plant in Bedforshire. Wanna buy some?

(Will PM you this afternoon with promised update!)

Ian D

[Garethx]

i'm with you on this, surely it wouldn't be woth the time and money to just run 6 copies off. i personally think all those involved have been a tad inventive with the truth of what happened. it was 1965, and the record was unearthed when 77? could you remember what you were doing 12 yrs ago. i can barely remember 12 mins ago! the record was probably issue too! must be lots of em out there. but who cares!

The only time and money spent on this would have been the time spent on:

1. Producing the stamper from lacquer (half an hour);

2. Producing artwork (say ten minutes);

3. Producing black plates then overprinting existing blank Soul labels (half an hour tops) and then:

4. Sticking six lumps of plastic onto the stamping bed, letting them cool and puting them in sleeves (ten minutes).

5. Posting or delivering the finished records to Motown in Detroit.

All the above processes would have been completed by salaried staff members of the pressing plant at no extra physical cost to Motown or ARP. All records pressed for Motown at this facility would have gone through this process. The difference with the FW release is that the project was abandoned and the further large-scale manufacturing did not take place.

The costly part of the enterprise is promotion and distribution, neither of which took place in this particular case. The unit cost of manufacture is pretty minimal, certainly to a relatively large company like Motown, which might have had ten other projects being manufactured at the plant that week.

As mentioned earlier in the thread there are isolated instances of this happening with other Motown releases like the Patrice Holloway VIP single, so FW is not unique in this respect.

What makes it unique for a Motown product is the escape of the stock to the Northern Soul scene in Britain and the subsequent massive popularity of a record which exists in very small quantity. This happens all the time with rarities from other quarters (which exist in small numbers for a host of other reasons), so it was bound to happen with at least one aborted Motown project.

On a tangential note I'd like to ask John Manship if he was disappointed with the price which The Ringleaders acetates fetched in his auction last year. To someone of my generation (in my early 40s) these records are at least as interesting as Frank Wilson from a scene history point of view, just as good and actually rarer.

Edited February 6, 2009 by garethx

[Tony Smith]

But for Ron Murphy's account (thank's Ian) I would have to agree with the view that suggests that a higher number were probably pressed with all the artwork etc. that went into them. For comparrison If you think back to that thing on Lime (same backing as Jones Brothers but name eludes me right now) that came out on a UA test pressing - they did 10 and they didn't put all the credits on - just a UA logo etc.and minimal detail.

Having said that I think on the balance of probability that multiple copies were pressed, Berry probably had his "chat" with Frank, and then nearly all copies were "destroyed" before they got out - it won't be the first time that type of thing has happened.

So Ron has cleared up what we would expect to normally happen I guess

I agree highly unlikely further copies will surface everyone has been after this for 30 years including all those Motown collectors with their inside "contacts" etc.so it is an ultimate rarity.

All that being said there are records higher up my wants list

Nathan Williams

[Spanner]

i am sparticius whoops i mean i have frank wilson , do i love you 4 auction

[Pete S]

The only time and money spent on this would have been the time spent on:

1. Producing the stamper from lacquer (half an hour);

2. Producing artwork (say ten minutes);

3. Producing black plates then overprinting existing blank Soul labels (half an hour tops) and then:

4. Sticking six lumps of plastic onto the stamping bed, letting them cool and puting them in sleeves (ten minutes).

5. Posting or delivering the finished records to Motown in Detroit.

All the above processes would have been completed by salaried staff members of the pressing plant at no extra physical cost to Motown or ARP. All records pressed for Motown at this facility would have gone through this process. The difference with the FW release is that the project was abandoned and the further large-scale manufacturing did not take place.

The costly part of the enterprise is promotion and distribution, neither of which took place in this particular case. The unit cost of manufacture is pretty minimal, certainly to a relatively large company like Motown, which might have had ten other projects being manufactured at the plant that week.

As mentioned earlier in the thread there are isolated instances of this happening with other Motown releases like the Patrice Holloway VIP single, so FW is not unique in this respect.

What makes it unique for a Motown product is the escape of the stock to the Northern Soul scene in Britain and the subsequent massive popularity of a record which exists in very small quantity. This happens all the time with rarities from other quarters (which exist in small numbers for a host of other reasons), so it was bound to happen with at least one aborted Motown project.

On a tangential note I'd like to ask John Manship if he was disappointed with the price which The Ringleaders acetates fetched in his auction last year. To someone of my generation (in my early 40s) these records are at least as interesting as Frank Wilson from a scene history point of view, just as good and actually rarer.

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record...these are not test pressings, they are finished copies, they would not just press 6 demo copies they would press between 200 and 1000 and they would print labels for all of them. Motown test pressings are white with an advance stamp and hand written titles.

[Ady Potts]

Just to clarify the original story following some research and a couple of calls to those who know, the story regarding the 6 copies came from renowned Motown collector and font of all in-depth knowledge about Motown, the late Ron Murphy (the owner of the copy of Frank Wilson which passed to Martin Koppell and which now resides with Tim Brown). It was Ron Murphy who spoke to directly to the owner of ARP - the pressing plant where F.W. was pressed, when he tried to locate another copy of F.W. and the owner confirmed that just the 6 copies were pressed. Ron was in the business and if anyone could have unearthed more copies it was him.

Ron Murphy had a reputation for knowing what was talking about and there's no reason to disbelieve him, so THAT'S where the 6 copies story comes from!

R.I.P. RON MURPHY

Ian D

Looking at a small picture of the F.W. that Kenny owns (I've not held the real record) where it has that step in the label..edit...Is that step in Tims record as well ? how come that QUALITY CONTROL stamper stamped such a uniform stamp? Why didn't it miss out the bit in the middle where it went down the dip?

Has anyone actually seen the records sat side by side?

Ady

Edited February 6, 2009 by pottsy

[Guest in town Mikey]

I've had to skim over most of this topic.

At the risk of appearong even more silly that usual, hsnt there always been 3 know copies?

I see the debate re Tim or Kenny's copy, but I've always been led to believe there is a third copy, so wouldnt this just be that one?

Apologies if this has already been cleared up.

[Pete S]

Ady, Just had a really close look at the scans. I see exactly what you mean!!! Someone mentioned something about Kennys copy having a different intro. We know the Sousan boots came from from Tim's copy. If you check out Reg Bartlettes book 'Off The Record" He states that the DM prefixed masters often had numerous takes and that this was common in that series. Could we have a scenario where 2 press runs were done at different plants of different takes???

When Tim gets back from Forida, we need to find out if his copy has the ring recess, we also need to put both his and Kenny's side by side and compare, this should help us determine whether they shared common origin!

Not that this has a lot of relevance but the UK Tamla Motown 1979 issue is a different take. Strings are almost mixed out.

[Guest veep1296]

Anything's possible. However, Motown was very much Berry's fiefdom at the time so the 6 copy theory is entirely possible. We know where 2 of 'em are. There's now a 3rd copy, there's a good chance that Berry has another 2 and the final copy could well be residing in the U.S. national music archives! Helluva story!

Ian D

Having not kept up with the thread in recent days , has it been confirmed that it is a third copy that is up for sale ?

Malc Burton

Listen David, I aint got any copies of Frank Wilson nor do I want any so there is absolutely no chance of me bidding for it on Johnny Manships auction.!!

Thats Fine Mr Gordy...nice ring.

Nice suit David ..see you later.

Hope this info assists the debate,

Regards

David Ferguson

[Guest Paul]

It takes a lot longer than half an hour to make stampers from lacquers. And the label printing process also takes longer than described, allowing for drying times etc.

As the Frank Wilson records aren't test pressings but regular copies, I've no doubt that at least several hundred copies would have been manufactured. Anyone who says there are are only two or three copies must be pretty certain that all other copies were destroyed.

[Dave Fleming]

Nice one Ady! Right, got it. The QA stamp is an American Pressing Stamp dated in November '65. It was a sample stamp from the 1000 off pressed batch as indicated on the top right of the label. This record was due for release on 31 December 1965, we know this from Reg Bartllete, author of Off The Record (A book cataloging Motown masters). The dating falls into line with the demos being ready for despatch to proms and radio stations. The said QA copy would have been filed as a master article inspection at american pressings. The other scan (Kenny's copy) demonstrates that other copies did filter out from the minimum 1000 press run.

Is it 1000 next to the ok,or is it someones initails ?

Dave f...............

[Ady Potts]

Ady, Just had a really close look at the scans. I see exactly what you mean!!! Someone mentioned something about Kennys copy having a different intro. We know the Sousan boots came from from Tim's copy. If you check out Reg Bartlettes book 'Off The Record" He states that the DM prefixed masters often had numerous takes and that this was common in that series. Could we have a scenario where 2 press runs were done at different plants of different takes???

When Tim gets back from Forida, we need to find out if his copy has the ring recess, we also need to put both his and Kenny's side by side and compare, this should help us determine whether they shared common origin!

Exactly Andy

[Guest EType69]

Apologies if I've missed it but I can't see any confirmation on this thread that the record being auctioned is 'the third copy'.

[Guest]

I reckon it'll sell for around 8 grand

I'll put a pound in the sweepstake and go for £8,576

[KevH]

Looking at a small picture of the F.W. that Kenny owns (I've not held the real record) that step in the label doesn't look like an ARP press to me, may be wrong as it's so hard to tell from a tiny picture.

Now if that step is in Tims record as well, how come that QUALITY CONTROL stamper stamped such a uniform stamp? Why didn't it miss out the bit in the middle where it went down the dip?

Has anyone actually seen the records sat side by side?

Ady

are'nt they stamped with a hand stamper?

The initals at the side of "ok" looks like DW.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Apologies if I've missed it but I can't see any confirmation on this thread that the record being auctioned is 'the third copy'.

It's a 3rd copy Etype69. John's getting rid of it before we flood the market with the 25 issues I found in my shed this afternoon!

Ian D

[Guest Paul]

...The initals at the side of "ok" looks like DW.

If DW turns out to be Dick Whittington, then I'll understand why this record is so expensive.

[pikeys dog]

How many demo copies are pressed of a 45?

Exactly how many Radio stations were operating in the U.S. at the time? Who else would have received promo's?

1000 copies sounds a lot to me - wouldn't they try it on the local market before commiting to a national push? - this was an unknown artist, not a Marvin Gaye or Stevie Wonder.

Both 'known' copies came from people related to Motown in a roundabout way - and no copies have been found 'in the wild', which surely points to any addition copies pressed being destroyed?

[Tabs]

Ian,

Where exactly does it say in this thread it's a third copy?

John M doesn't actually say that in his post.

Cheers

It's a 3rd copy Etype69. John's getting rid of it before we flood the market with the 25 issues I found in my shed this afternoon!

Ian D

[carl_p]

Looking at a small picture of the F.W. that Kenny owns (I've not held the real record) that step in the label doesn't look like an ARP press to me, may be wrong as it's so hard to tell from a tiny picture.

Now if that step is in Tims record as well, how come that QUALITY CONTROL stamper stamped such a uniform stamp? Why didn't it miss out the bit in the middle where it went down the dip?

Has anyone actually seen the records sat side by side?

Ady

i have arp pressings that look identical to the step photo. the label could have been stamped "quality control" prior to pressing. also the second picture could be a scan instead of a photo and not showing the detail in the step. the labels look identical. arp had the labels printed nearby was my understanding and they look identical. if it was a different plant we would see slightly different typset as was typical with other motown records pressed at different locations.

[Garethx]

It takes a lot longer than half an hour to make stampers from lacquers. And the label printing process also takes longer than described, allowing for drying times etc.

As the Frank Wilson records aren't test pressings but regular copies, I've no doubt that at least several hundred copies would have been manufactured. Anyone who says there are are only two or three copies must be pretty certain that all other copies were destroyed.

I take your point about drying times for printed parts Paul, but I was referring to machine times (not including lead-ins etc.) for the stampers and I maintain that none of this would be expensive in relative terms in answer to the question "why press only six; wouldn't that be too costly".

Another thing's occurred to me: both known copies are WDJs as opposed to what you call "regular copies" Paul: no need even for the stage of using blank mauve Soul labels. As has been noted before Motown used a number of pressing facilities throughout the states, and it was useful of Phil to state that he has seen dedicated Motown Test Pressing labels from several of these facilities.

Could it not be the case that ARP used the label format of a WDJ for a handful of copies rather than pressing at least 1,000 WDJs as may have been the norm with, for example, a Miracles or Four Tops 45? All I was trying to say was that technically and from a production point of view this was all entirely possible and plausible.

I'm not particularly getting behind the theory that only six were ever pressed (I simply don't know the truth like all of us here), just working backwards from it seeing as it is the closest we have to a 'horse's mouth' description of what actually happened.

If someone close to the Motown production office or the pressing plant had ever definitively said "we pressed up thousands of them and skipped the lot" then we could pour water on the "six copies only" theory. However I don't think anyone has ever said that. Bernie Ales' story about his wife punting copies out at a yard sale can be taken with a huge pinch of salt, I think.

No mauve issue copy has ever come to light, despite people searching high and low for over thirty years and the images which appear on the internet of an apparent regular issue copy are fakes.

[snooky]

I'll put a pound in the sweepstake and go for £8,576

If i was still collecting i would pay up to 10k.........and if there were more a few would have turned up by now!

Some people might not like it but everybody has there own opinion,it was made a big tune because people liked it and danced to it!

My memories of the first time i heard it at St.Ives allnighter as Eddie Foster!!!!not sure who played it,any ideas???????,and do any copies of it as eddie foster still exist?

Is there going to a contest on who puts in the first big offer in!!??????i hear tee shirts are being printed!!!!

[Soul-slider]

Excuse my ignorance...but is it (FW) definitely going on John Manship's auction??

Edited February 6, 2009 by Soul-Slider

[snooky]

Excuse my ignorance...but is it (FW) definitely going on John Manship's auction??

According to his web site he's saying AN AUCTION of FW,check it out

MOTOWN VINYL CATALOGUE 50 YEARS OF MOTOWN !!Monster colour catalogue devoted exclusively to TAMLA MOTOWN related vinyl & memorabilia. Inc: the auction of FRANK WILSON - DO I LOVE YOU - SOUL 35019 DJ + 1000s of other wonderful collectable MOTOWN items. Out soon - 750 run only!£5.00 fully refundable on purchase from cataloguesomethings happening for sure will just have to wait and see,its the talking point even over here on the beach!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest t.o.t.s.s.c]

Apologies if I've missed it but I can't see any confirmation on this thread that the record being auctioned is 'the third copy'.

i,m with you steve because the john manship posting number 69 is

saying two copies only . there is no time like the present to

begin the push on a third copy if thats what he is selling but no

just a thin disguise to protect the current owner.

[Pete Eccles]

lot's of 'ifs' on this thread, a couple more,

If it is a case of a '3rd copy' turning up and if I were in a position to make a bid (which I'm not) I would have more than a niggling worry about copies 4,5,6............ turning up in due course, unless there's assurities that wherever this copy has 'surfaced' there are no others,

[Davebanks]

This is such a great thread.

We soul fans should not underestimate the wider interest in this record. Mentioned it to a mate of my sons who years ago I had given a CD to of Northern stuff including FW, he liked it. This guy is now a world famous recording artist and said he would be interested in bidding for FW, I did tell him the likely price but lucky bugger didn't bat an eye!!!

I did give him JM's web address, and John you owe me a pint if he makes the winning bid. Tell you who it is when I see you in a few weeks.

Point is, this record has charisma beyond NS and Motown fans. And if like my sons mate you have not heard it before it still has the power to move you. Its still got soul!

Dave Banks

[Ady Potts]

i have arp pressings that look identical to the step photo. the label could have been stamped "quality control" prior to pressing. also the second picture could be a scan instead of a photo and not showing the detail in the step. the labels look identical. arp had the labels printed nearby was my understanding and they look identical. if it was a different plant we would see slightly different typset as was typical with other motown records pressed at different locations.

You're right Carl. Now I've got of my backside & gone & had a look in the collection I've found a couple as well. Lets see what happens when AndyK contacts Tim to see if his has the step in the label as well.

[snooky]

Just wondering,is there a batch found ?,in someones cellar,and why wait to sell it next month ,with the credit crunch with us i;d like the money in NOW,if i was selling.

Why didnt the owner sell it on Ebay??????

John M hasn't said if its a 3rd copy!!!!!or 4th or 5th....mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Is this just like Lester Tipton,the guys LAST COPY!!!!!!!!!

[Rich B]

Only a couple of quick points;

I hardly ever dj'd with my Billy Woods - but it was knackered when I sold it, lots of hisses etc - so just how bad (as Ian D says) is FW going to be?

and, as I recall, Jonathan Woodliffe's had noise from a warp, so we know who has that copy, for the "familt tree" someone mentioned earlier.

Best,

RB

[Chalky]

Good posting , looks like a West Coast [ styrene ] press to me , which would make sense as Frank was based there .Cheers ,Eddie

I thought Ron Murphy said he got his copy from an employee of ARP in Detroit? I'll have to read again....

[Eddie Hubbard]

Looking at a small picture of the F.W. that Kenny owns (I've not held the real record) where it has that step in the label..edit...Is that step in Tims record as well ? how come that QUALITY CONTROL stamper stamped such a uniform stamp? Why didn't it miss out the bit in the middle where it went down the dip?

Has anyone actually seen the records sat side by side?

Ady

Hard to tell from the scans , but the one on the right looks like a styrene press , and the left hand one looks like a vinyl press , do we know if they are both vinyl or styrene ? I've got a Carolyn Crawford " My smile is just a frown " Motown map demo with that quality control stamp , does that mean it used to belong in the Motown vault ? So many questions .........Best ,Eddie

[Eddie Hubbard]

Only a couple of quick points;

I hardly ever dj'd with my Billy Woods - but it was knackered when I sold it, lots of hisses etc - so just how bad (as Ian D says) is FW going to be?

and, as I recall, Jonathan Woodliffe's had noise from a warp, so we know who has that copy, for the "familt tree" someone mentioned earlier.

Best,

RB

Tim Brown has that copy Rich , which was the first copy found .Best ,Eddie

[Ian Dewhirst]

Ian,

Where exactly does it say in this thread it's a third copy?

John M doesn't actually say that in his post.

Cheers

John's being enigmatic and is maintaining a dignified silence as he's busy organising a 'Transporter' with a U.S. military escort to get the record to the 24 hour armed-guarded security depot where it will reside until the auction is concluded!

I spoke to John as I'm thrashing out an article on this and he's confirmed to me that this is a bona-fide 3rd copy from a private collector who wishes to remain anonymous, as pointed out earlier in the thread.

I'm sure any further details will be released when John confirms the auction dates......

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

I thought Ron Murphy said he got his copy from an employee of ARP in Detroit? I'll have to read again....

I think he did Chalky. I don't think there's much dispute about 'em coming from ARP........

Ian D

[Eddie Hubbard]

Here's Kenny's copy , gracing the decks at Banbury Soul Club :

[Ian Dewhirst]

And for those of you who are desperate for a pristine Frank Wilson promo, there's one available for £60 right now...........

https://www.discogs.com/sell/list?release_id=564334&ev=rb

Don't get killed in the stampede LOL. I was gonna snag it myself 'cos I sold my last one for £100 but I'm in a generous mood today. Whoever gets it owes me a drink OK?

Ian D