Sorry to inflict everyone with another thread about this.After reading through the previous threads was it ever definitely stated that the whitish labels with blue text were later re-issues.Over the years think i have seen equally as many blueish tinged ones as clear whites.The Whites are always cheaper Why?.Like i said its all been covered before but i'm still confused as to the evidence that says they are not done at the same time ie whites later.Here is a scan of my White issue by the way.

I agree mate, i've got one similar but with discoloured labels and havent got a clue if its real or not

Both the white label, and the blue tint label are reissues - an original looks like any other arctic issue. I think the reason for the price difference for these two reissues is that until recently a lot of us (myself included) thought the blue tint copies were the real deal - They are not.

Cheers

Mick

Sorry to inflict everyone with another thread about this.After reading through the previous threads was it ever definitely stated that the whitish labels with blue text were later re-issues.Over the years think i have seen equally as many blueish tinged ones as clear whites.The Whites are always cheaper Why?.Like i said its all been covered before but i'm still confused as to the evidence that says they are not done at the same time ie whites later.Here is a scan of my White issue by the way.

HI That copy loks fine to me, there is a boot that sort of looks right, when you are at an ALL-NIGHTER but at home you can tell. it's not like the MIKE N IKE - BOOT, 1ST pressings and 2nd presings are prety easy to tell from bootlegs 2nd pres have a darker blue background, still worth haveing, the laws of love DEMO is a very rare record indeed, one for the big boys me thinks DAVE

Both the white label, and the blue tint label are reissues - an original looks like any other arctic issue. I think the reason for the price difference for these two reissues is that until recently a lot of us (myself included) thought the blue tint copies were the real deal - They are not.

Cheers

Mick

Thanks Mike but when did this recent discovery on the re-issues take place,and you see my confusion when Dave recons mine is a good un.Hear this getting played out a lot and not on the rare Demos so most DJs are spinning the re-issues then.Also if you now know the tinted ones are re-issues what about the white ones why are both re -issues with two different label colours and same dead wax markings.Sorry again its a minefield i know beginning to say sod it like everyone else and just play any of the copies.

It's pretty difficult to pin down a lot of Jaimie Guyden stuff because it's always been pretty active in pressing it's catalogue from the 60's onward and always had good connections with the UK in terms of exporting it's wares - I remember Global in Manchester having loads of Arctic releases - Volcanoes records were on their wholesale lists at one point - I think I remember 'em selling "Help Wanted" for a £1 at the time and there were no shortage of copies. They'd use the same stamper and similar labels for subsequent represses across all their labels - Dionne, Jamie, Arctic, Top & Bottom, Phil-LA Of Soul etc, etc. If you think about Jaimie Guyden have always been pretty quick on the reissue button all the way back to "A Love You Can Depend On" and "Don't Stop Looking".

By weird coincidence, Frank Lipsius (owner of Jaimie Guyden) was in town this week. He's an anglophile so he's always been aware of the interest in the UK..........

Ian D

Edited September 25, 201113 yr by Ian Dewhirst

Thanks Mike but when did this recent discovery on the re-issues take place,and you see my confusion when Dave recons mine is a good un.Hear this getting played out a lot and not on the rare Demos so most DJs are spinning the re-issues then.Also if you now know the tinted ones are re-issues what about the white ones why are both re -issues with two different label colours and same dead wax markings.Sorry again its a minefield i know beginning to say sod it like everyone else and just play any of the copies.

Well for me it was probably about a year ago I got to know about it. We had been having these threads and discussions for what seemed forever, seconded only by the relentless Epitome Of Sound questions. I think there is one of the Volcanos thread that has the real scan.

As to the deadwax, as I've explained in previous threads - there is a difference and I don't know why.

A single sided demo (Rules or Laws, makes no difference) has the A side deadwax of .. A-VOL-5- A

Both the White and Blue Tint reissues have the very same A side deadwax of .. A-VOL-5- A

Except they are NOT the same.

The A-VOL-5- is identical, no question there - it's the very last character "A" that is different.

On the reissues, the "A" is spaced normally, about the same as the opening "A" on A-VOL

On Original Demo the the "A" is squashed up to about half the width of the reissue.

(I would assume that an original issue would be the same as this, but cannot confirm.)

It has just occured to me that the "5" followed by a dash (consitent throughout various issues of this record) looks more like an "s" and dash and is actually just a "5" with the top line offset.

Hope that clears up the deawax. It would be great is someone who had both could photograph these deadwax markings, as a picture would make it obvious.

Cheers

Mick

Sorry to inflict everyone with another thread about this.After reading through the previous threads was it ever definitely stated that the whitish labels with blue text were later re-issues.Over the years think i have seen equally as many blueish tinged ones as clear whites.The Whites are always cheaper Why?.Like i said its all been covered before but i'm still confused as to the evidence that says they are not done at the same time ie whites later.Here is a scan of my White issue by the way.

Why are the cheaper - because they came out in 1974 or 5. The blue and whites like that scan have always been regarded as first bootlegs then reissues. I'd be interested to see pic of a blue label reissue next to a blue label original.

Sorry to diversify a bit , I've just put a 'Storm Warning' on ebay and I bought this as an original but does the same critrea

apply to this ? It has A-VOL-3 and Virtue scratched in also . I put that I assume it's an original but don't want to be trying to sell something that ain't.

Cheers

Swifty

Why are the cheaper - because they came out in 1974 or 5. The blue and whites like that scan have always been regarded as first bootlegs then reissues. I'd be interested to see pic of a blue label reissue next to a blue label original.

So would I because I still cannot work out whether the one you sold me is an original or a reissue

Edited September 25, 201113 yr by rich chorley

So would I because I still cannot work out whether the one you sold me is an original or a reissue

Well if I described it as an original, I'd expect it to be one, and if I did and it's not - I'd give you your money back!

Wheres John Vincent when you need him

HI all had me going so had to check my copy , and yes the 5 looks like an s and the A is squashed and sort of curved not straight lines badly done .

mot

Andy.

Well if I described it as an original, I'd expect it to be one, and if I did and it's not - I'd give you your money back!

I know you would mate, we talked about it before and neither of us were sure in the end, going to have to dig it out when I get back from holiday and look at all this stuff, just recall last time we did this somebody posted some photos which were a very vivid blue but think he did that himself (painted it) for some reason, the one you sold me is light blue but I would like to see an image of what the supposed didfference is between a 'blue' original and a 'blue tint' reisssue, that's confusing me....The one you sold me just looks like other arctic releases, BARBAR MASON 45s etc,...

From what I remember about the Arctic stuff when I worked at Global is that they were a bit thinner and lighter than 60s pressings . This could have been due to the hike in vinyl prices caused by the oil crisis of the mid 70s . One result of this was a lot more than usual came back from shops as warped. Also they were always in plain white sleeves whereas 60s ones were often but not always in Jamie Guyden sleeves.

Rick

HI That copy loks fine to me, there is a boot that sort of looks right, when you are at an ALL-NIGHTER but at home you can tell. it's not like the MIKE N IKE - BOOT, 1ST pressings and 2nd presings are prety easy to tell from bootlegs 2nd pres have a darker blue background, still worth haveing, the laws of love DEMO is a very rare record indeed, one for the big boys me thinks DAVE

Wasn't the demo a one-sided thing only, with B side blank ?

Buy the demo's chaps lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell

Edited September 26, 201113 yr by Mark Bicknell

the demo copies with "The Rules of love" on them are true originals, the rest are just reissues by Artic, after the horse has bolted, in various guises, the two sided demos state vocal/inst dont they, not like artics majority releases, inst sides only as a,s are few (mike & Ike-sax on the trax). Mine has Rules crossed out, and Laws ink pen written over the top. As with a lot of artic demo's there is nothing on the other side, just a rough sandpaper effect. All the copies ive seen, some have not had rules crossed out, are water damaged in various states. I bought mine in 74 for £4-KRoberts, after the initial reissue/boots first appeared. Im sure too there was a copy with Ed Bishops name in pen written to one side, again with rules crossed out.

the demo copies with "The Rules of love" on them are true originals, the rest are just reissues by Artic, after the horse has bolted, in various guises, the two sided demos state vocal/inst dont they, not like artics majority releases, inst sides only as a,s are few (mike & Ike-sax on the trax). Mine has Rules crossed out, and Laws ink pen written over the top. As with a lot of artic demo's there is nothing on the other side, just a rough sandpaper effect. All the copies ive seen, some have not had rules crossed out, are water damaged in various states. I bought mine in 74 for £4-KRoberts, after the initial reissue/boots first appeared. Im sure too there was a copy with Ed Bishops name in pen written to one side, again with rules crossed out.

Pay yours money and takes your choice......................

So the styrene, stick on labels copies of "You're number 1" are ........70's re-issues ?

Edited September 26, 201113 yr by KevH

So the styrene, stick on labels copies of "You're number 1" are ........70's re-issues ?

Yes.

HI ALL, After going through all my ARCTIC RECORDS and also a few J/G VIRTUE Pressed records, it seems there is a pattern to them, all originals will have virtue on and 180 degrees will have the hand written matrix info, reissues there will Bean extra letter, any thing that is not in line, 45, 90, 135. 180. 225. 270. 315. 360 degree's on most records world wide indicates to me, it's dodgy! big corporation's take pride on what they want there product is, and this is so true in the music industry, Thats why collecting rare soul is so addictive, for example who in their right minds would hold back and destroy the FRANK WILLIAMS RELEASE! but they did because of standards in the corporation, if they had known about the taste of the UK market and it's loe for up tempo soul, they would of capitalized on it, the UK soul scene was not an oldies scene as we know today most records released in the UK at the time where at best 6 months old and the up-tempo soul was 2 to 4 years old, to-days dance scenes how old a record is does not matter any more, it's a different world now. but back then the standards where high and aimed at money making not at making a loss,

I have 5 different Arctic labels from darkish blue and black writing to what i know clearly what is an original 1st press, more info from collectors of US SOUL is needed to help as I am no expert, but would like to know more.

I always look for the symmetry in the run of Grove as a starting point to identify the genuine from fake, it applies here with all J/G VIRTUE pressings? DAVE

I have an Ambassadors Demo LP on Arctic, on this lp is Storm warning, are the Ambassadors the Volcanos or is this just another case of record companies letting more than one artist signed to them to record the same track ???

Andy

ambassadors are a different group, Andy. Storm warning came out on a 45 in 1969 on Arctic 153

Edited October 4, 201113 yr by bri pinch

Orig

Reissue

Edited October 4, 201113 yr by bri pinch

Almost bought a RULES a couple of years back at Cleethorpes for £200 but the guy in front of me got to it 1st I still have my LAWS....The single sided demo`s are what to go for if you want a definate original.

Edited October 4, 201113 yr by Guest

Orig

Reissue

So the original of You're Number 1 is same colour label and text as my Reissue of Laws of love.STILL CONFUSED

A dozen topics, god knows how many posts and still confusion reigns. Can we have decent quality scans with matrix details of all the releases?

A dozen topics, god knows how many posts and still confusion reigns. Can we have decent quality scans with matrix details of all the releases?

Mr.Grumpy.Wait till the Mirwood thread starts. .

Mr.Grumpy.Wait till the Mirwood thread starts. .

Nothing grumpy about what I said or me Kev. Just a simple fact we seem to be going round in circles and the more that is said the more confusion there seems to be. Maybe we should have a different topic for Arctic and cover all the issues and reissues etc.

It would certainly make life easier with decent 300dpi and 400 x 400 scans with matrix details.

There is even confusion in this topic with "you're number 1" now to add to it.

Nothing grumpy about what I said or me Kev. Just a simple fact we seem to be going round in circles and the more that is said the more confusion there seems to be. Maybe we should have a different topic for Arctic and cover all the issues and reissues etc.

It would certainly make life easier with decent 300dpi and 400 x 400 scans with matrix details.

There is even confusion in this topic with "you're number 1" now to add to it.

I know you're not really grumpy Chalky.But you can't have enough info on these subjects,plus as you get older the memory goes.

I know you're not really grumpy Chalky.But you can't have enough info on these subjects,plus as you get older the memory goes.

I agree Kev you can't have enough info but don't you think it's time we got the right info on this subject by now? Lets see some decent scans and info or the disc and clear up the confusion that surrounds this record.

OK, I've explained the deadwax differences in post #7, but that still needs photographs - which I can't do. Until someone can put up photos, here's the next best thing.

I've recreated both deadwax markings by hand and scanned them.

Original - from single sided Demo (either Laws or Rules)

Reissue / Boot

This is as close to a genuine representation as I can do at 5:30 in the morning, but as I keep saying, it is only the last "A" that is different, also it's spacing, as hopefully you can see. The rest of it is identical.

Cheers

Mick

Thanks for that Mick clears mine up for sure

HI That copy loks fine to me, there is a boot that sort of looks right, when you are at an ALL-NIGHTER but at home you can tell. it's not like the MIKE N IKE - BOOT, 1ST pressings and 2nd presings are prety easy to tell from bootlegs 2nd pres have a darker blue background, still worth haveing, the laws of love DEMO is a very rare record indeed, one for the big boys me thinks DAVE

The demo with title of ' It's against the RULES of love ' easily the rarest one, don't think there is much to choose between the demo's and issues of 'Against the laws of love ' originals, seen plenty of those one-sided demo's in my time - issues possibly just as rare / not rare (if you get my meaning) ! Still a classic northern Philly great.

Best scan I can find right now...

To be on the safe side buy this one

Storm Warning

First issue...Light blue label with dark blue text

Second issue...Sky blue with Black text (or white with blue text)

The criteria above is the same for Help Wanted.

Your're Number 1

First issue; vinyl with light blue moulded label.

2nd issue; Styrene with stick on darker blue label with black text.

Regarding the first and second issues is there any difference with the run in grooves as my copy has this label but very narrow run-in grooves

"Help wanted" / "A lady's man" looks the same as Chalky's scan of Storm Warning.(first issue).

"Help Wanted" text,slightly less defined,and paler, than the text on "A Lady's Man".

HW in run out... A - VOL - 4

ALM in run out...A - VOL - 7.

Thoughts.....?

Edited October 8, 201113 yr by KevH

I've read this thread about 3 times and I'm still not 100% clear.

Guess I'll just have to wonder.............................

ps these are actually blue;

Edited November 24, 201113 yr by Chris L

I've read this thread about 3 times and I'm still not 100% clear.

Guess I'll just have to wonder.............................

ps these are actually blue;

My info which I took from SS a while back is either to go for the vinyl white demos with black writing and molded labels......or in the case of issues - light blue label with dark blue writing with molded labels on vinyl.

These 2 types are as far as I know are the genuine first press demos and issues.....anything else are either boots or re-presses.

My info which I took from SS a while back is either to go for the vinyl white demos with black writing and molded labels......or in the case of issues - light blue label with dark blue writing with molded labels on vinyl.

These 2 types are as far as I know are the genuine first press demos and issues.....anything else are either boots or re-presses.

Thank you Dennis for such a straight forward answer

What an issue worth nowadays ?

Chris L

bought single sided demo only to be told it was a boot as the last A was normal and not squashed up a bito so much for boot guide on laws of love

bought single sided demo only to be told it was a boot as the last A was normal and not squashed up a bito so much for boot guide on laws of love

I don't think there is a boot of the one sided demo, someone else showed me one that he'd been told was a boot just last week and it was a definite original

I don't think there is a boot of the one sided demo, someone else showed me one that he'd been told was a boot just last week and it was a definite original

Yep!

the demo copies with "The Rules of love" on them are true originals, the rest are just reissues by Artic, after the horse has bolted, in various guises, the two sided demos state vocal/inst dont they, not like artics majority releases, inst sides only as a,s are few (mike & Ike-sax on the trax). Mine has Rules crossed out, and Laws ink pen written over the top. As with a lot of artic demo's there is nothing on the other side, just a rough sandpaper effect. All the copies ive seen, some have not had rules crossed out, are water damaged in various states. I bought mine in 74 for £4-KRoberts, after the initial reissue/boots first appeared. Im sure too there was a copy with Ed Bishops name in pen written to one side, again with rules crossed out.

£4 eh....I insist you sell it me back.

It would have been Jimmy Bishop as he owned Arctic in the 60's.

Arctic was one label I had multiple stock on most titles, largely supplied by the old Chips team Ed Gilreath, Alex Araco and Weldon Mcdougal.

KR

I remember ordering Laws of Love off a Soul Bowl list some years ago

Duly sent the payment ..think it was Tenner

Got Rules of Love single sided demo back in the post a few days later

Pleasant surprise

OK, I've explained the deadwax differences in post #7, but that still needs photographs - which I can't do. Until someone can put up photos, here's the next best thing.

I've recreated both deadwax markings by hand and scanned them.

Original - from single sided Demo (either Laws or Rules)

Reissue / Boot

This is as close to a genuine representation as I can do at 5:30 in the morning, but as I keep saying, it is only the last "A" that is different, also it's spacing, as hopefully you can see. The rest of it is identical.

Cheers

Mick

so now people are saying that they have single sided demos with both types of "A"! Throws this argument out the window, will this topic ever be sorted!?!

I presume this applies to all the Arctic Issues

Blue label and blue text first press..

Blue label black text..boot/reissue

Just dug out Mike And Ike ...Sax on The Track....not played for years..sounds great.....light blue label and blue text