What with the Culture show the other night and the forthcoming film and adverts etc etc using the music the scene brought back to life and many saying the want it to stay underground. I was thinking if it really has been underground for years, 1000s of you tubes of the tunes, various websites,1000s of tunes on eBay under Soul but also northern soul, 1000s of soulies old and new all over the country and last few years seen and become friends with soulies from lots of countries around the world, lots of scooter rallies having a separate Northern room etc etc etc.

the majority of the scene/s into the nostalgia scene and only a fraction into the rarer side of it

This is not an oldies v newies thread so please for ffs don't turn it into one its just an observation of what I've been seeing, reading and now watching.

Is it time to just accept its not an underground scene anymore and never will be again as its had so much publicity good or bad that if you ain't heard of northern soul then your probably not a music lover at all.

I can see more returning and new to the scene folk coming to a venue near to you sometime soon.

Fingers crossed those that do get it and enjoy it and respect it as much as we all do and always will.

KFC and all that .....

it all comes down to how you define 'underground', and thats a tricky one, it certainly is and indeed was mainstream in certain areas. Around Stoke NS was THE popular music of the mid to late 7ts, kids down my street used to do skipping to 'what' as well as the rollers chant, 'b- a- y, b-a-y' ect. Is it really mainstream in the true sense? I'm sure there's loads around the country who've never heard of it, especially amongst the young, who are probably far too busy getting tattoo'd over 90% of their carcass whilst high on a mix of mad cat and veno's. Is it underground? well even the most commercial side of it probably is, to a certain extent. Is it cool anymore? you seen any of those weekender photo's?        

 

I sometimes catch the big band show on sundays evenings on R2, they advertise concerts by swing band's around the country, Cromer pier and the like, and I wonder about the 'big band scene', I'm sure its not cool, but its probably got more dignity than what's left of NS.   

The Northern Soul scene hasn't been an underground scene since about 1974.

Now that would be a good topic (or sub-topic here) - Is Northern Soul still cool?

 

From what I am gathering, from recent discussions on here and elsewhere, there is a mood going on that despite the new film, book, Culture Show, Fred Perry's latest clothing lines, young ones from Wigan etc. perhaps meaning that the mainstream might possibly think again that Northern Soul is still cool, or worth looking at again ...

 

... people on the Northern 'scene' who have always valued it's underground, authentic, rare, obscure, cool, progressive aspects seem to be saying it has already gone non-cool and already looks like the teddy boy scene before it took it's final breath.

 

I have to admit - all those videos of the fat old people dancing on YouTube is atrocious - sorry folks but it is.

 

How about dress code at Northern venues ... "You're not coming in here with those ridiculous baggies, that circle skirt, or that vest - put a shirt on!"   

Edited October 2, 201311 yr by Premium Stuff

Not under the banner of Northern Soul, but to some that fly another flag.....

Remember all the posts on SS, 5-8 years ago, on how to attract young blood on the scene?

The answer is upon us, you either continue as always or whore your DJ arse on the crest of the wave.

Remember when cupcakes were just fairy cakes?

There are still parts of this scene that even 7,200 people would be totally unaware of.... ...try asking em about Chuck Jackson cover up, Singing Tornadoes, Big Jay, unissued Piped Piper productions etc, etc, etc....99% wouldnt have a clue, indeed many of them wouldnt even understand the term cover up....chalk n cheese n long may it remain so.....the real scene is still underground ish & probably will remain so....the media are only really interested in that other scene anyway....the grockles think they know what NS is, so let em get on with it while we do our thing.... 

 

Russ

Edited October 2, 201311 yr by Russ Vickers

depends where you go....and where people you know go........the soul scene part is still underground.......the northern soul scene is not

Edited October 2, 201311 yr by gordon russell

I think we now should look at it as being an alternative scene its not underground anymore.  

Funny really that everyone bemoans it being less underground today. I seem to remember when I was in school (late 70s) every man and his dog was into northern, and northern was played at every youth club and working men's club alongside the chart records. Hardly underground, or was that just in Nuneaton?

I've been living off of Main Street 

Where society is the thing 

But people that live on Main Street 

They don't know how to swing 

But the people on the back street 

They swing, all night long 

Although I live on the main street 

The back streets is where I belong 

E.Starr

Funny really that everyone bemoans it being less underground today. I seem to remember when I was in school (late 70s) every man and his dog was into northern, and northern was played at every youth club and working men's club alongside the chart records. Hardly underground, or was that just in Nuneaton?

 

You know I had that same thought the other day Matt, but couldn't really comment as I didn't get into the Soul All-nighters until 1987 (I was into Soul via the Mod scene before then)    For me, it was underground in 87, but from the stories I've heard about Wigan especially, it seemed there were coach trips from all over the country going, blimey we were lucky if we could fill a train carriage (& I mean the really old train carriages that hold about 4!! lol)

Edited October 2, 201311 yr by Alison H

You know I had that same thought the other day Matt, but couldn't really comment as I didn't get into the Soul All-nighters until 1987 (I was into Soul via the Mod scene before then)    For me, it was underground in 87, but from the stories I've heard about Wigan especially, it seemed there were coach trips from all other the country going, blimey we were lucky if we could fill a train carriage (& I mean the really old train carriages that hold about 4!! lol)

Hi Ali 

 

Think the underground scene ran from Wigans closure until we were saddled with this nostalgia "I used to go to Wigan you know"  leg iron that came back to recreate the Wigan thing, round about 1984-2002ish, the mid eighties to the early nineties were the golden years if you ask me, the underground years, people went for the music, not to be on a scene.

 

Best

 

Kev

No not another one..........I'm off to bed...........but I'll be back tomorrow

Cheers

Martyn

Hi Ali 

 

Think the underground scene ran from Wigans closure until we were saddled with this nostalgia "I used to go to Wigan you know"  leg iron that came back to recreate the Wigan thing, round about 1984-2002ish, the mid eighties to the early nineties were the golden years if you ask me, the underground years, people went for the music, not to be on a scene.

 

Best

 

Kev

 

Ah right, I understand that Kev, makes perfect sense now      

 

The "best" years of my soul life were from 87 to 95, ....... then 96 to 2003 were pretty good as well,  then 2004 to 2008 were good, and 2009 to now, still has it's moments, but overall I think I'm past it now 

 

Hope I bump into you & the lads before I retire for good    

 

Take care & bye for now

 

Ali x

Ah right, I understand that Kev, makes perfect sense now      

 

The "best" years of my soul life were from 87 to 95, ....... then 96 to 2003 were pretty good as well,  then 2004 to 2008 were good, and 2009 to now, still has it's moments, but overall I think I'm past it now 

 

Hope I bump into you & the lads before I retire for good    

 

Take care & bye for now

 

Ali x

Hi Ali

 

See you at Just Soul, October 26th, Horse and Groom 20th, or Wilton, November 9th 

 

x

Hi Ali

 

See you at Just Soul, October 26th, Horse and Groom 20th, or Wilton, November 9th 

 

x

Hope to see you both there.

Might be a very long time before we have another.

Cheers,

Sean

I think I agree with Brivinyl above.

Being a mod, being into Soul, in the sixties and early 70's was an alternative and 'slightly' underground lifestyle and 'scene'. But by '74 'Northern Soul became seen (certainly in the north of England) as 'popular' music, with scores of chart hits and TV exposure.

The Bay City Roller generation found Wigan and the rest is history.

I've never had a problem with that, personally.

I thought I was the only real Soul fan in the world for far too long, lol.

Soul is the greatest music the world has ever provided. The more people enjoying, admiring and loving it the better for me. The artists deserve to be exposed and appreciated by as many people as have an ear for it. That is not to be coveted by just the few who feel that they alone have a divine right to it.

Live it, love it and be prepared to share it.

We are fortunate, some might say blessed, to have been exposed to it, and had it as the soundtrack to our lives for such a long time.

 

Sean

MFP
(Music for pleasure)
 

Edited October 3, 201311 yr by Sean Hampsey

Being a mod, being into Soul, in the sixties and early 70's

 

The REAL original Mods consider that their underground scene died when Ready Steady Go started in late 1963 and all the "fighting on the beaches" stuff kicked off at Easter 1964.

 

So this underground v mainstream dilemma ain't nothing new.

 

MB

Edited October 2, 201311 yr by MBarrett

The REAL original Mods consider that their underground scene died when Ready Steady Go started in late 1963 and all the "fighting on the beaches" stuff kicked off at Easter 1964.

 

So this underground v mainstream dilemma ain't nothing new.

 

MB

 

Absolutely right. It was all over the press and even became 'mainstream' to ask people 'Are you a Mod or a Rocker?' - And I was only about nine at the time!

 

Amuses me to think that the next and subsequent generations think that they are somehow part of some elite, clandestine, movement that the man in the street is completely unaware of.

 

They're not.

 

They haven't been for donkeys years.

 

But where the music is concerned, its still the greatest. And no one is going to know everything, so there are will always be a few secrets yet to be unearthed and discovered!

 

Which is what keeps it plenty 'special' enough for me.

 

 

Sean

I can remember going to The Yate nighters in 80/81 with a couple of older guys who did go to Wigan, & hearing them bemoaning how the scene was no longer underground & had gone mainstream then !!!!!!

There are still parts of this scene that even 7,200 people would be totally unaware of.... ...try asking em about Chuck Jackson cover up, Singing Tornadoes, Big Jay, unissued Piped Piper productions etc, etc, etc....99% wouldnt have a clue, indeed many of them wouldnt even understand the term cover up....chalk n cheese n long may it remain so.....the real scene is still underground ish & probably will remain so....the media are only really interested in that other scene anyway....the grockles think they know what NS is, so let em get on with it while we do our thing.... 

 

Russ

 

 

depends where you go....and where people you know go........the soul scene part is still underground.......the northern soul scene is not

 

Both posts nail on the head.....

There are still parts of this scene that even 7,200 people would be totally unaware of.... ...try asking em about Chuck Jackson cover up, Singing Tornadoes, Big Jay, unissued Piped Piper productions etc, etc, etc....99% wouldnt have a clue, indeed many of them wouldnt even understand the term cover up....chalk n cheese n long may it remain so.....the real scene is still underground ish & probably will remain so....the media are only really interested in that other scene anyway....the grockles think they know what NS is, so let em get on with it while we do our thing.... 

 

Russ

Thanks Russ,that's saved me half a day?My answer is what Russ said

Cheers

Martyn

I think its silly people worrying if the Northern scene is “underground” or not.  Most people would agree that it’s generally populated with people over 40, who’ve loved whatever scene they’ve been on for years. 

Surely worrying about “undergroundness” — yes, I know it’s not a real word, is for the youth and young adults who are trying to find their own identity and place in the world and not for people in later life with mortgages and children of their own. 

I may that thought it years ago, but now I don’t care, as adverts on telly using 60’s Soul, TV programmes, waistcoats and other comedy clothing don’t detract from or affect the music I love or venues I attend.  As a grown man I have better things to worry about than hearing the Mello Souls whist shopping in Tesco’s.

Edited October 3, 201311 yr by John Reed

Hi Ali 

 

Think the underground scene ran from Wigans closure until we were saddled with this nostalgia "I used to go to Wigan you know"  leg iron that came back to recreate the Wigan thing, round about 1984-2002ish, the mid eighties to the early nineties were the golden years if you ask me, the underground years, people went for the music, not to be on a scene.

 

Best

 

Kev

 

Thats exactly how i see it also Kev.The scene in my opinion was at its most COOL,most UNDERGROUND,and most ENJOYABLE during the so called wilderness years of mid 80s through the 90s up to the early millenium.Loads of characters around,great accross the board sounds,and venues with an edge and a goose bump atmosphere.1980s Clifton Hall,Stafford,early 90s Keele,Manchester Ritz,Cleethorpes Winter Gardens.During this period even the local soul nights were great.Bring back the WILDERNESS

i just hope a lot of the probable new returnees and youngsters dont start their own nights up so there are even more nights on!

 

lots of good 'underground' soul nights on and lots of northern soul revival nights on..we just dont need anymore

If you're working hard at being cool and think you are cool,you're probably not.

If you think NS is underground,its probably not.

There is a soul scene that's off the radar,for the moment.

"Underground" and "Cool" in my opinion define or describe an attitude or feeling once had or felt by places people or environments.

They still exist as one commentator has said in some places but not generally.The whole scene has been diluted and broken down into its constituent parts catering for different genres and different people.However I would not categorise those people as underground or cool by how knowledgeable they are about records...after all my neighbour is an expert on Cornish Pasties but

that makes him dedicated nothing more.The "underground" or "coolness" of the scene is or was...well "something"..you find it one Saturday night but maybe not the next.

It is true to say that you want the world to know how good the music is , but if it did wake up to it it would be ruined , the music still excites me and so does getting a record in the box that I have been wanting for years. It is and always will be minimal compared to the mainstream

A few years back I was visiting, as I always do every  year, my parents in Minnesota, USA in a place called Walker that is right 'Up North' and out in the sticks. Population less than 1000 and all into rock or C&W. I strolled into the local tiny bookstore and whilst looking around the shelves of thrillers and romances and history I came across Manships Guide To Rare Soul Prices! In one second the realisation that Northern was no longer truly underground etc was upon me! 

Who cares, really??

 

From my angle I have always said that you don't get into it..IT gets into you..

I didn't go looking for a Cool, Underground Scene to belong to, after hearing all the classic (well a lot) motown, stax etc. at the youth clubs and having to suffer interminable shite in any given "disco" in between hearing the odd Soul tune, saw adverts in Blues and Soul for clubs saying they played exclusively Soul.

Okey dokey, we'll give that a go....... walked in the first night..... complete Damascus moment. So, grabbed by the throat in 1972 and never looked back..

Yes, had a few years away marriage and kids and all that, but the MUSIC never leaves you, dipped the toe back in and heard stuff I hadn't heard before..brilliant..

 

I still go out , in the hope of hearing something I don't know. If I can come away from a night thinking Wow, gotta get me one of them, then I've had a good night.

 

I understand that I am probably in the minority.

Even big allniters are known to advertise in the local paper or the Guardian guide so that's hardly underground is it?

Living in the North West as I do, I find that most people of a certain age know what Northern Soul is.  My workmate Phil, 63 years old knows what Northern is...his favourite track is Love slipped through my fingers (he has just told me)... my boss knows what Northern is-she goes to Denton Soul Club, .. you turn on the 6 music  and Darrell Banks is playing ... I went to my son's cricket barbecue a couple of weeks ago and the dj played Willie Tee straight after Gangam Style!!

Is that mainstream enough? 

Edited October 3, 201311 yr by Reg

Earlier this year I was doing a qualification called PTLLS, during it you have to give what's known as a 'Micro-teach', which is basically a shortened lesson of 20 minutes. As you can pick any subject to teach I chose Northern Soul. The first question I asked was have any of you heard of Northern soul, the idea was that if they had they stood up. 2 stood. If they couldn't answer any questions they were then to sit down. I then asked, can you name a venue. 1 sat down, finally I asked could they name a DJ and the last one sat down. To cut a long story short, most people seem vaguely aware of northern, but don't appear to have any extensive knowledge. Interestingly, my partner Jackie who is a lecturer was demonstrating how to do a micro teach to her class, so she also chose Northern to compare results. She spoke to 14 students, similar or the same questions only 1 got up to the have you heard of northern question, and then he sat down, when asked to name a venue. So all in all, I would say that northern has maintained it's mystique. I know it's a very small sample, but there does seem to be some hope  

Heres one for you to answer then dj iPod and dj porkie locally play basic northern do i start a new venue playing the real deal as they don't go venues

Funny really that everyone bemoans it being less underground today. I seem to remember when I was in school (late 70s) every man and his dog was into northern, and northern was played at every youth club and working men's club alongside the chart records. Hardly underground, or was that just in Nuneaton?

 

It goes in cycles in my experience. It was underground when I started at the beginning of the 70's and then it was overground by 1975 or thereabouts. The amount of people that tell me that they love Northern Soul yet can't give me a single title seems to have multiplied in the last few weeks though.....

 

Ian D 

Earlier this year I was doing a qualification called PTLLS, during it you have to give what's known as a 'Micro-teach', which is basically a shortened lesson of 20 minutes. As you can pick any subject to teach I chose Northern Soul. The first question I asked was have any of you heard of Northern soul, the idea was that if they had they stood up. 2 stood. If they couldn't answer any questions they were then to sit down. I then asked, can you name a venue. 1 sat down, finally I asked could they name a DJ and the last one sat down. To cut a long story short, most people seem vaguely aware of northern, but don't appear to have any extensive knowledge. Interestingly, my partner Jackie who is a lecturer was demonstrating how to do a micro teach to her class, so she also chose Northern to compare results. She spoke to 14 students, similar or the same questions only 1 got up to the have you heard of northern question, and then he sat down, when asked to name a venue. So all in all, I would say that northern has maintained it's mystique. I know it's a very small sample, but there does seem to be some hope

 

My experience exactly. Tons of people say they love Northern Soul but none of 'em know anything about it. It comes in and out of fashion all the time. I remember hearing exactly the same stuff in London in the late 90's when there last seemed to be an influx of people apparently into Northern but they were basically just catching the fad of the moment.......

 

Ian D 

The amount of people that tell me that they love Northern Soul yet can't give me a single title seems to have multiplied in the last few weeks though.....

 

Ian D 

 

Yep - and that's just some folk you meet on the scene Ian

 

But I think you make a good point. It was less in the spotlight in the 80's and 90's than in the 70's and its certainly getting a lot of media attention currently, so it probably is cyclical.

 

I also wonder how much of its 'popularity' is still a North / South thing?

 

In my part of the world, pretty much every second or third person you meet went somewhere at sometime on the scene. I can't imagine that's the case in the more cosmopolitan south.

 

 

Sean

Surely its both?

agree Sean, northern fans much more of a rare breed down here. Though they do pop up more often than I expect - even a couple at work now.....doing their own thing.

I've been living off of Main Street 

Where society is the thing 

But people that live on Main Street 

They don't know how to swing 

But the people on the back street 

They swing, all night long 

Although I live on the main street 

The back streets is where I belong 

E.Starr

well said that man

Dear Marge

I like clouds. I've been looking at them all my life, they've give me so much pleasure over the years. I'm sure many folk feel the same way. I don't know how they're formed, I don't know any fancy Latin names for them, mind you that doesn't bother me or get in the way of me still enjoying them. But then some hardcore cloud fans started having a go at me ! Calling me a 'sunset lover' and 'fluffy cotton wool fancier' ! They really hurt my feelings! They were telling me I should get into more obscure grey and darker clouds. But I really like the sort of clouds I'm into !

The whole thing is ruining my love of clouds so much I'm even thinking of giving up clouds altogether and getting a new interest, I've heard about this thing called 'northern soul' , I might give it a try. Any advice welcome.

Dear Marge

I like clouds. I've been looking at them all my life, they've give me so much pleasure over the years. I'm sure many folk feel the same way. I don't know how they're formed, I don't know any fancy Latin names for them, mind you that doesn't bother me or get in the way of me still enjoying them. But then some hardcore cloud fans started having a go at me ! Calling me a 'sunset lover' and 'fluffy cotton wool fancier' ! They really hurt my feelings! They were telling me I should get into more obscure grey and darker clouds. But I really like the sort of clouds I'm into !

The whole thing is ruining my love of clouds so much I'm even thinking of giving up clouds altogether and getting a new interest, I've heard about this thing called 'northern soul' , I might give it a try. Any advice welcome.

 

Dear Fluffy Cotton Wool Fancier

Just carry on doing what gives you the most pleasure.However don't you get bored looking at the same clouds day in day out.Those obscure grey and darker clouds are full of energy atmosphere,and when the rain comes they leave you refreshed

Marge

PS

I always remember something my mam once said to me "son, if you want to keep something a secret - then all you have to do is don't tell anyone it !

Even big allniters are known to advertise in the local paper or the Guardian guide so that's hardly underground is it?

Living in the North West as I do, I find that most people of a certain age know what Northern Soul is.  My workmate Phil, 63 years old knows what Northern is...his favourite track is Love slipped through my fingers (he has just told me)... my boss knows what Northern is-she goes to Denton Soul Club, .. you turn on the 6 music  and Darrell Banks is playing ... I went to my son's cricket barbecue a couple of weeks ago and the dj played Willie Tee straight after Gangam Style!!

Is that mainstream enough? 

 

It's very different down south - I live on the South Coast and I've worked in a university library for 17 years and in all that time the only person I've really been able to talk too about Soul music was a Japanese student who had asked about using the library record player and it turned out he was very much into 70s Soul and we did a few CD swops. Not to say there isn't Soul fans around as there are some very dedicated Soul collectors here but they just don't seem as numerous and I haven't worked with any or come into contact with any on campus, despite working with one of the areas main employers. Then I got talking to a new starter last week and he knew quite a lot about the Soul scene - but he's from Manchester.

Edited October 5, 201311 yr by manus