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Silky Hargraves


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2 minutes ago, tlscapital said:

I don't get it, most testimony I read a while ago from that Detroit gang talked about a white guy and he certainly sounds like one. No pictures popped-up to this day as far as I know. And I'd love to see one since I own and love all his records from his long discography... :lol:

Betty Lavette showed me a photograph of Silky as she knew him very well.

Please be assured he was African American.

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35 minutes ago, tlscapital said:

I don't get it, most testimony I read a while ago from that Detroit gang talked about a white guy and he certainly sounds like one. No pictures popped-up to this day as far as I know. And I'd love to see one since I own and love all his records from his long discography... :lol:

That's what made me ask.

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8 minutes ago, Soul-Slider said:

That's what made me ask.

I did a lot of finally dreaded G**gl search a while ago and only found stories about the white guy hanging with his mates; JJ Barnes, Cody Black, Steve Mancha & Co. in the studios and never a picture was shown. Even when requested it was a point blank.

Even the first picture taken from the forum Soulful Detroit is no match for the drawing from the advert.59a9ce662e500_Capturedcran2017-09-0123_09_04.png.bab3d0277a2ed3edac53196a485963df.png

Edited by tlscapital
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43 minutes ago, dylan said:

He sounds white.

Not on "Lucky To Be Loved By You" - unreleased Thelma cut.  I always thought he was Black and saw pictures that said the person was him, and it was an Afro-American.  He didn't sound "White" to me, on D-Town and Wheelsville USA, or Dearborn, at least, from what I remember.

 

Edited by RobbK
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1 hour ago, tlscapital said:

Sorry but there's no match and these are all pictures of Isaac Kari at different decades of it's life showing the resemblance far from the drawing anyway...

59a9c9f001ef9_Capturedcran2017-09-0122_54_37.png.fd457d731350dff13ce3fd38cd05de73.png59a9c9f1e8465_Capturedcran2017-09-0122_54_28.png.1f7552e7f55687e6f6419d0fd7de9fe2.png59a9c9f383ad0_Capturedcran2017-09-0122_54_12.png.f760f656949c5bd751ff183afd75ceb4.png59a9c9f51d325_Capturedcran2017-09-0122_54_02.png.6ef1e4efc5a290044164a23d116c9911.png

Yes that's Sax Kari.  Hargreaves probably wasn't even alive when that earliest photo of Kari was taken.

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30 minutes ago, RobbK said:

Not on "Lucky To Be Loved By You" - unreleased Thelma cut.  I always thought he was Black and saw pictures that said the person was him, and it was an Afro-American.  He didn't sound "White" to me, on D-Town and Wheelsville USA, or Dearborn, at least, from what I remember.

 

To be honest Robb, I don't even recognize Silky's voice on this unreleased take of 'lucky to be loved by you'. I couldn't even guess to put a name on that voice. Where on his 6 released sides even though he changed of shirt, hat and socks his voice timber betrays him.

Both his D-Town 45 and Wheelsville sides are so "black" on everything about them, that it's only when you allow to question Silky's "pedigree" and re-listen to them another way, leaving room to the possibility that... Yeah... Maybe... Likely... Right !

Where for his Dearborn 45, it always made me believe that this guy there was white. Or could that be the "black" guy we knew from the D-Town and Wheelsville 45's wanted to go break bigger and reach the "pop" market to sound "white" ?

Goes without saying nothing wrong with it one way or the other. For me his 3 singles are of cult statues and I'd love to unveil some of the mysteries around the man like the OP 'Soul Slider'. We'd love to know it all but a little slice of that guy's who's and whereabouts would be a blessing already.

Edited by tlscapital
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7 hours ago, tlscapital said:

 

Goes without saying nothing wrong with it one way or the other. 

Yes i agree with this i wasnt trying to belittle the records in any way and i dont know one way or the other.  Just making an observation.

 

keep loving me is classic northern.

 

it would be nice to get to the bottom of things like this with some proper evidence.

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12 hours ago, David Meikle said:

Betty Lavette showed me a photograph of Silky as she knew him very well.

Please be assured he was African American.

Thanks for the input. But still it is no proof. Only on this thread one of the two showed pictures was ruled out. 

The first one with the 2 Wheelsville labels is still questionable as it's not established one way or the other as to who it is for sure.

The wonderful advert for the Dearborn 45 is a drawing not stating that Silky resemble the character. Many "fake" figures" are used to "embellish" a product...

The "somebody told me or showed me" is left to the memories that are what they are; only memories. And willingly or not just adding to the grapevine, rumors or urban legends.

Edited by tlscapital
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14 hours ago, tlscapital said:

I did a lot of finally dreaded G**gl search a while ago and only found stories about the white guy hanging with his mates; JJ Barnes, Cody Black, Steve Mancha & Co. in the studios and never a picture was shown. Even when requested it was a point blank.

Even the first picture taken from the forum Soulful Detroit is no match for the drawing from the advert.59a9ce662e500_Capturedcran2017-09-0123_09_04.png.bab3d0277a2ed3edac53196a485963df.png

Looks like a very good match to me?

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43 minutes ago, maslar said:

Looks like a very good match to me?

Close to but no match to me. That is why the drawing is not conclusive. Plus this drawing is made from a picture. So if the same guy as from the picture, either the drawer intentionally "twist" the picture or he wasn't a good portraitist. The similarities maybe there (haircut, wide front head, linear eyebrows, medium large nose and lips) but the "person" is not in my eyes. If shown wrong, I'll be more than happy to finally have seen Silky, the black dude and admit to my misjudgment !

Edited by tlscapital
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16 minutes ago, tlscapital said:

Close to but no match to me. That is why the drawing is not conclusive. Plus this drawing is made from a picture. So if the same guy as from the picture either the drawer intentionally "twist" the picture or he wasn't a good portraitist. The similarities maybe there (haircut, wide front head, linear eyebrows, medium large nose and lips) but the "person" is not in my eyes. If shown wrong, I'll be more than happy to finally have seen Silky, the black dude and admit to my misjudgment !

I think you're looking too  hard:) . People tend to look slightly different in different photos. I'd say the drawing  was an excellent ressemblance of the person in the soulful detroit pic. 

Also it's taken me just a short time to find a brief bio from a press cutting posted on Soulful detroit by Graham Finch which states that "Sylki"  Hargrave performed in a "gospel quartet" (doo wop?). He performed at Lee's Club Senstation which featured black artists (situated  in Paradise Valley I think).  and there's a reference to his friendship with Betty Lavett(e).

 

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9 hours ago, maslar said:

I think you're looking too  hard:) . People tend to look slightly different in different photos. I'd say the drawing  was an excellent resemblance of the person in the soulful detroit pic. 

Also it's taken me just a short time to find a brief bio from a press cutting posted on Soulful detroit by Graham Finch which states that "Sylki"  Hargrave performed in a "gospel quartet" (doo wop?). He performed at Lee's Club Senstation which featured black artists (situated  in Paradise Valley I think).  and there's a reference to his friendship with Betty Lavett(e).

 

Silky Hargreaves was a Black man.  I saw a few photos of him years ago.  I can't remember the source.  Furthermore, I am an artist, and understand how difficult it is to make everything in a photo look the same in a drawing.  To me, that advert drawing is an excellent portrayal of the man in the photo, and I have no doubt that they are one in the same person.

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15 hours ago, RobbK said:

Silky Hargreaves was a Black man.  I saw a few photos of him years ago.  I can't remember the source.  Furthermore, I am an artist, and understand how difficult it is to make everything in a photo look the same in a drawing.  To me, that advert drawing is an excellent portrayal of the man in the photo, and I have no doubt that they are one in the same person.

OK, I'll take the inclination to "believe", YES you heard me "I AM A BELIEVER" for the moment at least, that Silky is black. If ever someone could come across another picture of Silky please report on here. We will be forever worthy of :)

On the portrait side of things, I drew too. I know what it is to make people's portrait. Being a good drawer is not all. It also requires humility, as not to see ourselves in those we love and portrait them as we perceive ourselves or, if not love, to turn it into a caricature of something else that still belongs to the pencil holder somehow.

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2 hours ago, tlscapital said:

OK, I'll take the inclination to "believe", YES you heard me "I AM A BELIEVER" for the moment at least, that Silky is black. If ever someone could come across another picture of Silky please report on here. We will be forever worthy of :)

On the portrait side of things, I drew too. I know what it is to make people's portrait. Being a good drawer is not all. It also requires humility, as not to see ourselves in those we love and portrait them as we perceive ourselves or, if not love, to turn it into a caricature of something else that still belongs to the pencil holder somehow.

Klopt!  I agree 100 % with that statement.  But, I still think that the advert drawing is the man in the photo.

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1 minute ago, David Meikle said:

Silky's father was Bluesman Richard 'Nickel' Hargrave.

Silky was also a cousin of Mike Hanks.

Detail from Keith Rylatt's book Groovesville.

End of......

info dig shows that copyright records points at at his real name being  James Hargraves Jr ?

KEEP LOVIN ME LIKE YOU DO w Love m Silky Hargraves James Hargraves Jr 2 p 21Aug67 EU11053 

content?id=uz8hAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA1896&img=1&

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  • 6 years later...
  • 2 months later...

Just came across this thread. I'm Kevin Kiley, Bettye's husband. I can tell you for certain, that Silky was a black man. She has a hand colored photo of him in his army uniform.

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He died Feb 8 1972 in Cincinati, OH. His father was James Hargrave Sr. The photo he gave to Bettye is signed, and he signed it Sylki.

I had not seen the photo in years. It is not hand tinted. And he was in the Air Force, not the Army.

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Thanks for the info, Kevin.  Here's a story that Bettye might remember, printed in Michigan Chronicle 16 May 1964 page B1, about the 12th Annual Spring Dance at the Latin Quarter, organized by a group of Detroit business and professional men known as The King's Men.  The entertainment included comedian Tina Dixon; James Hargrove (sic) & Lafayette Vaughn as "Silk and Satin;" dancers; and, by audience demand, Betty Lavette.  See uploaded newspaper clip.  (Perhaps the song referenced was Mr. Two-Gun Pete by Jack Cooley from 1950.  There is no other info about Lafayette Vaughn, so maybe this name was not spelled correctly.)

Ancestry.com records confirm the 1972 death date; no cause stated.  Military records show his birth date on 8 September 1940.  He served in the Air Force from 15 August 1960 to 13 September 1963.  His mother, Mamie Woods of Cincinnati, signed the 1972 request for the Veteran's cemetery headstone.  Curiously, in the 1942 Cincinnati City Directory, James E Hargrave & wife Mamie Hargrave were living at 804 West 9th St.  The 1949 & 1952 City Directories have James Hargrove (sic) at this address.  The 1950 Census (family name spelled Horgrove by the Census-taker) shows that he was an only child.  In the City Directories starting in 1953 until at least 1959, James Woods & Mamie Woods were living at the same address, 804 West 9th St.  It's difficult to understand why there was a change in the family name.

There was a 1961 Copyright for "Teardrops" filed by James Hargrave, Jr.  In doing research there are many songs with Copyright filings that were never recorded, and since lead sheets are available at the Library of Congress / Copyright Office, I hope that a singer and producer will search for these, find some that look interesting, and record them.  (There was also a 1959 Copyright filed by James Hargrove II, presumably not Silky, but the filing would need to be reviewed.)

My first post in January, with a 1968 newspaper story and photo that mentioned "Cold World" as Silky's latest recording and a big hit, was the final mention of Silky in Michigan Chronicle.  This and another song, "The Tables Turned On You" - both co-written by the mysterious Tina Love - had Copyright filings toward the end of 1967, when Copyrights were filed for the two songs on Silky's Dearborn 45.  Anyone know more about these tracks?

 

 

Michigan Chronicle 16 May 1964 page B1.JPG

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4 hours ago, jukeboxgeorge said:

 

My first post in January, with a 1968 newspaper story and photo that mentioned "Cold World" as Silky's latest recording and a big hit, was the final mention of Silky in Michigan Chronicle.  This and another song, "The Tables Turned On You" - both co-written by the mysterious Tina Love - had Copyright filings toward the end of 1967, when Copyrights were filed for the two songs on Silky's Dearborn 45.  Anyone know more about these tracks?

 

 

Michigan Chronicle 16 May 1964 page B1.JPG

    Those two tracks may have been slated for the Silky Hargraves album mentioned at the end of this Record World article (October 4,1967). 

 

 

Silky.jpg

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11 hours ago, jukeboxgeorge said:

Thanks for the info, Kevin.  Here's a story that Bettye might remember, printed in Michigan Chronicle 16 May 1964 page B1, about the 12th Annual Spring Dance at the Latin Quarter, organized by a group of Detroit business and professional men known as The King's Men.  The entertainment included comedian Tina Dixon; James Hargrove (sic) & Lafayette Vaughn as "Silk and Satin;" dancers; and, by audience demand, Betty Lavette.  See uploaded newspaper clip.  (Perhaps the song referenced was Mr. Two-Gun Pete by Jack Cooley from 1950.  There is no other info about Lafayette Vaughn, so maybe this name was not spelled correctly.)

Ancestry.com records confirm the 1972 death date; no cause stated.  Military records show his birth date on 8 September 1940.  He served in the Air Force from 15 August 1960 to 13 September 1963.  His mother, Mamie Woods of Cincinnati, signed the 1972 request for the Veteran's cemetery headstone.  Curiously, in the 1942 Cincinnati City Directory, James E Hargrave & wife Mamie Hargrave were living at 804 West 9th St.  The 1949 & 1952 City Directories have James Hargrove (sic) at this address.  The 1950 Census (family name spelled Horgrove by the Census-taker) shows that he was an only child.  In the City Directories starting in 1953 until at least 1959, James Woods & Mamie Woods were living at the same address, 804 West 9th St.  It's difficult to understand why there was a change in the family name.

There was a 1961 Copyright for "Teardrops" filed by James Hargrave, Jr.  In doing research there are many songs with Copyright filings that were never recorded, and since lead sheets are available at the Library of Congress / Copyright Office, I hope that a singer and producer will search for these, find some that look interesting, and record them.  (There was also a 1959 Copyright filed by James Hargrove II, presumably not Silky, but the filing would need to be reviewed.)

My first post in January, with a 1968 newspaper story and photo that mentioned "Cold World" as Silky's latest recording and a big hit, was the final mention of Silky in Michigan Chronicle.  This and another song, "The Tables Turned On You" - both co-written by the mysterious Tina Love - had Copyright filings toward the end of 1967, when Copyrights were filed for the two songs on Silky's Dearborn 45.  Anyone know more about these tracks?

 

 

Michigan Chronicle 16 May 1964 page B1.JPG

There's a great piccy of him on the Tuff City LP from 2021 

Silky.jpeg

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Para 3 of image uploaded by The Yank. Enormous talent. No wonder our scene loves the Detroit sound.

16 hours ago, The Yank said:

    Those two tracks may have been slated for the Silky Hargraves album mentioned at the end of this Record World article (October 4,1967). 

 

 

Silky.jpg

 

Edited by David Meikle
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