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tomangoes

How Modern is Modern?

So we had R&B, then the motown funk brothers style, a bit of stax and Atlantic, then the Carstairs and co...

Alfie Davidson and the Futures etc.

And obviously everything in between.

BUT by 1980 all this was covered and some.

17 years of musical evolution.

Now almost 40 years AFTER this, what exactly is modern? Please name examples over the last year or so that are different to pre 1980!

If folks who love the 60s are in a bubble, the Mecca lovers can't be much different.

What's new and 'kind of accepted ' as Northern Soul today?

I don't mean newly discovered master tapes etc from before 1980.

Ed

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Plenty of new releases on Timmion records, some great records,  admittedly some are previously unreleased 70,s  or album only tracks. Then there's the Swedish soul group Who's name totally escapes me at the moment thats had plenty of plays out at the more progressive across the board clubs like Willington.  

Steve 

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1 hour ago, tomangoes said:

Now almost 40 years AFTER this, what exactly is modern?

that's one question

1 hour ago, tomangoes said:

What's new and 'kind of accepted ' as Northern Soul today?

that's another, what do you mean by that?

what are you asking exactly?

based on your answer I'll have a go at a play list for others to have a go at 🙂

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Eddy Edmondson has picked contemporary soul in the right style for a long time along with Roger Williams and others in the Chorley-Leyland-Blackburn area.  The crowd in that area are very receptive and I find it has expanded my appreciation.

The playlists at his Soultime site and downloads of his Solar Radio show are worth investigating as are the Mixcloud Modern Life and Ralph Tee sets. Colin Curtis plays new Soulful House too (which is slightly different).

I buy loads of new Soul,with great stuff at such as Simply Soul.

Today's Modern Soul becomes tomorrow's oldie as we all know.

 

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Is there a 2019 style of music that's added on to the established styles from the 60s 70s 80s 

Or sounds that just fit those styles but are newly made?

It's not a trick question, is just in my view, modern is at best mid 80s which is further back from now to the start point.

Hence what is actually ' modern'.

Ed

 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, tomangoes said:

Is there a 2019 style of music that's added on to the established styles from the 60s 70s 80s 

Or sounds that just fit those styles but are newly made?

It's not a trick question, is just in my view, modern is at best mid 80s which is further back from now to the start point.

Hence what is actually ' modern'.

Ed

 

be interested in Chalky's view

Edited by shufflin

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Had a similar conversation at the weekend at a soul night with one of my old pals. He asked me if I still considered what was modern soul when we were younger is still today’s modern soul. We concluded that what we called “newies” which was the  70’s sounds that they played at venues like Clifton Hall will always be “modern soul” for us.

Tomo 

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Posted (edited)

Interesting mid 80s is mentioned, after that the feel of Soul changed towards the staccato New Jack Swing style. That doesn't flow like Soul dance we appreciate had before. It's a different emphasis on the beat.

It took a while before the Organic Soul and international appreciation of old Soul evolved and merged where flowing Soul will often be on the same set as some funk or staccato R&B styles. This opened up for modern Soul with the original feel to reemerge.

So for me it's all about the flowing feel, rhythm emphasis, song structure and so on.

I'm at a point where the terms don't matter to me anymore. But I do think in a Northern Soul setting for people who do not appreciate sounds beyond the 60s, that another term is helpfully available.

I once compiled a set for an associate at his request and he later exasperatedly said to me 'how can this be modern soul? A fair number of the songs were made before I was born'. To him the term meant contemporary R&B of about ten years ago.

So I stopped using terms at all from then on.

Edited by ThinkSmart

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9 hours ago, ThinkSmart said:

Eddy Edmondson has picked contemporary soul in the right style for a long time along with Roger Williams and others in the Chorley-Leyland-Blackburn area.  The crowd in that area are very receptive and I find it has expanded my appreciation.

The playlists at his Soultime site and downloads of his Solar Radio show are worth investigating as are the Mixcloud Modern Life and Ralph Tee sets. Colin Curtis plays new Soulful House too (which is slightly different).

I buy loads of new Soul,with great stuff at such as Simply Soul.

Today's Modern Soul becomes tomorrow's oldie as we all know.

 

I'd agree with all that and expanding on the last point.....in the mid 60s as motown was banging out its dance records it would have been modern compared to the early 60s R n B. Style.

Then as the Carstairs was filling the floor, a different modern sound emerged. I don't want to say disco... but maybe soulful disco.

By the late 70s the jazz funk was infiltrating play lists.

Freddie Jackson and Alexander O'Neal brought in a different style by the 80's 

But in the last 30 years I don't see any significant change in beat or style, just replication of what's been before.

So either modern is used to describe new releases or it simply describes the latter style from the 80s in terms of what was played and accepted as Northern Soul.

Ed

 

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Posted (edited)

The 80's are viewed by many as a 'soul wasteland' … lots of substandard output … BUT … if you lived in the Yorks / Notts / Derbys area you could tune in every Saturday evening to Searling's 'SOUL SAUCE' on Radio Hallam. Richard would find quality new releases to play every week (not all dance tempo) and he kept Modern Soul lovers in the loop for quite a few years (till forced out from Hallam & immediately getting a new show on Red Rose).

The brains getting weaker by the week these days but he certainly introduced us to goodies from the likes of Zingara, Revelation (a UK 45 release), Chuck Cissel, Peabo Bryson, Keni Burke, Anita Baker, Arthur Adams, Johnny Taylor, L.T.D, Al Johnson (with Jean Carne) and many more.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogfXFiMSDtU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5UmhvvlFkM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyCRm_eqIsw

 

Edited by Roburt

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Posted (edited)

Hi Roburt, it may be a recent release, and a dam good one, but is it so different in style to those late 80s and possibly early 90s tunes.

Are there for example any 'Northern Soul' nights that only play new releases like this? I remember venues like Canal Tavern in Thorne tried to mainly play newer sounds.

Here is another great tune of the same ilk.

 

 

Ed

Edited by tomangoes
Spello

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8 hours ago, ThinkSmart said:

I'm at a point where the terms don't matter to me anymore. But I do think in a Northern Soul setting for people who do not appreciate sounds beyond the 60s, that another term is helpfully available.

I once compiled a set for an associate at his request and he later exasperatedly said to me 'how can this be modern soul? A fair number of the songs were made before I was born'. To him the term meant contemporary R&B of about ten years ago.

So I stopped using terms at all from then on.

Very true, I was having a conversation with someone about R&B once - he using the term to refer to Craig David and R Kelly and me to refer to Muddy Waters and Jimmy Reed. Both agreed we were into R&B but neither had any clue about each other's music!

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Posted (edited)

Tomangoes - check out the Roger William's DJ events at such as Filling Factory in Buckshaw, Services club nearby in Leyland, that is 80s to today Soul dance with the right feel. Great music. 

You would appreciate the Luxury Soul weekender (and releases) that Ralph Tee and Richard Searling put on. Anytime Ralph is on at any event, good times with modern Soul are ensured.

Edited by ThinkSmart

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2 hours ago, Roburt said:

The 80's are viewed by many as a 'soul wasteland' … lots of substandard output … BUT … if you lived in the Yorks / Notts / Derbys area you could tune in every Saturday evening to Searling's 'SOUL SAUCE' on Radio Hallam. Richard would find quality new releases to play every week (not all dance tempo) and he kept Modern Soul lovers in the loop for quite a few years (till forced out from Hallam & immediately getting a new show on Red Rose).

 

I used to swap tapes with Dave Hitch in the 80s - that man seemed to get hold of an endless supply of tracks that struck me as excellent quality soul, all to the best of my knowledge new stuff he was buying week after week.

With regard to new releases now, as Winford mentions, Timmion are releasing very good stuff, Colemine too, and Kimberlite. There's also of course the thread on New Releases in the All About The Soul section of this website.

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2 hours ago, tomangoes said:

Hi Robert, it may be a recent release, and a dam good one, but is it so different in style to those late 80s and possibly early 90s tunes.

Are there for example any 'Northern Soul' nights that only play new releases like this? I remember venues like Canal Tavern in Thorne tried to mainly play newer sounds.

Here is another great tune of the same ilk.

 

 

Ed

But you can say the same for any decade, 70s Carstairs very much different to anything before it on the scene.

Music progresses, instruments fall in and out of favour, techniques change.  You cannot expect today's music to sound like it did 50 years ago otherwise it is just retro. 

There are venues out there that play more recent things but if you want stuff that sounds like 60s or 70s you might be disappointed. 

 

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I think, as suggested earlier, the modern should be used for new music, but not new retro music.

Of course the Carstairs is more ' modern ' than Jack Montgomery, but it's 46 years old now, so cannot really be classed as modern.

The 60s soul, 70s soul, 80s soul, might be a better sub title if still classed as Northern Soul.

I still remember the term Northern Soul being despised actually, and totally frowned upon wearing a badge with it on!

How times change.

Ed

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Well my out look on it is in the main with the northern crowd if it ain't 100mph and recorded after 69 then it's modern to them.they Just don't get it. Always loved modern be it 70's 80's and up to date  .the fact I also like 60's  probably makes me a freak to most of them .lol

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Funnily enough I did myself a cd last night and some the tracks I included were new/recent releases

 

Carlton Jumel Smith - This is what love looks like - Timmion

Bobby Oroza - Your love is too cold - Big crown

Ernest Ernie and the Sincerities - Do something - it's soul time

Benjamin & the Right direction - Light of My life - Palmetto St recording company

Durand Jones & the Indications - Don't you know - Colemine

The R&R soul Orchestra - I'm sorry - Sundae Soul

 

atb, Andy

 

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this is from an old post on SS, that should help

"A serious question deserves a serious answer.I personally dont associate the term 'modern soul' with the Levine / Curtis transition to 'newer' material at all.Infact, I don't even recall hearing the expression until the very late 70's / early 80's... I'd refute the notion that it was used, to describe the genre, during the mid 70's (at the time of the Mecca - Scene split).

I think you could date the term (as used on the Northern scene) to no earlier than 1979 (or even 1980) and it would have referred to the sounds being played at such places as Snaith by Soul Sam, Arthur Fenn, Mario, and then by the Clifton Hall jocks in 1981 and thereafter.

These early 'modern soul' tracks would have included

ZZ & Co "Getting Ready For The Get Down"

O T Sykes "Stone Crush"

King Tutt "You Got Me Hung Up"

High Frquency "Summertime"

Rideout "Someone Special"

I well recall the UK's first 'Modern Soul' Allnighter being held in Rotherham Tiffanys in 80/81... not before that... and how the South Yorkshire region was the real Birthplace (or at least the initial hotbed) for the Modern Soul 'scene' with Clifton Hall, Turnups, Sheffield Tiffanys etc.

The term hardly existed outside of the region until 82 onwards, when 'After Dark' promotions (Steve Croft and the modern jocks from Clifton Hall ) moved to Cleethorpes Winter Gardens and Bradford Queens Hall. Rock City and Loughborough soon followed.

The Mecca may have played a lot of 'Modern Soul' (in comparison to the 60's stuff played elsewhere) but I honestly dont recall the phrase being used at that time.

Sean Hampsey"

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/topic/31736-modern-soul-where-did-the-term-come-from/

 

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2 minutes ago, shufflin said:

this is from an old post on SS, that should help

"A serious question deserves a serious answer.I personally dont associate the term 'modern soul' with the Levine / Curtis transition to 'newer' material at all.Infact, I don't even recall hearing the expression until the very late 70's / early 80's... I'd refute the notion that it was used, to describe the genre, during the mid 70's (at the time of the Mecca - Scene split).

I think you could date the term (as used on the Northern scene) to no earlier than 1979 (or even 1980) and it would have referred to the sounds being played at such places as Snaith by Soul Sam, Arthur Fenn, Mario, and then by the Clifton Hall jocks in 1981 and thereafter.

These early 'modern soul' tracks would have included

ZZ & Co "Getting Ready For The Get Down"

O T Sykes "Stone Crush"

King Tutt "You Got Me Hung Up"

High Frquency "Summertime"

Rideout "Someone Special"

I well recall the UK's first 'Modern Soul' Allnighter being held in Rotherham Tiffanys in 80/81... not before that... and how the South Yorkshire region was the real Birthplace (or at least the initial hotbed) for the Modern Soul 'scene' with Clifton Hall, Turnups, Sheffield Tiffanys etc.

The term hardly existed outside of the region until 82 onwards, when 'After Dark' promotions (Steve Croft and the modern jocks from Clifton Hall ) moved to Cleethorpes Winter Gardens and Bradford Queens Hall. Rock City and Loughborough soon followed.

The Mecca may have played a lot of 'Modern Soul' (in comparison to the 60's stuff played elsewhere) but I honestly dont recall the phrase being used at that time.

Sean Hampsey"

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/topic/31736-modern-soul-where-did-the-term-come-from/

 

Well I went to Snaith and it's true new releases like those mentioned and imperials, Roy Dawson, etc were the main event.

I also went to Clifton Hall, before and during the revolution... 

But, that's yonks ago now and those records are hardly modern today!

Ed

 

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The term “Modern Soul” wasnt used to describe what was being played until 1981/2. Shrewsbury Soul Club the first to use it and Sam the first to use when referring to the records, early Backbeat reviews. 

Prior to this they were still newies which encompassed both 60s, 70s and new releases.  

Shrewsbury and Snaith were probably the two leading modern soul venues at the time. 

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there's another article on here that basically says it's impossible to define simply because modern soul (if you accept the term) is always evolving, with a high turn over of sounds, I've posted some of them in other threads on SS

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3 minutes ago, shufflin said:

there's another article on here that basically says it's impossible to define simply because modern soul (if you accept the term) is always evolving, with a high turn over of sounds, I've posted some of them in other threads on SS

But it isn’t impossible, you've just described how it should be, always evolving, anything else is an oldie. 

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4 hours ago, tomangoes said:

Well I went to Snaith and it's true new releases like those mentioned and imperials, Roy Dawson, etc were the main event.

I also went to Clifton Hall, before and during the revolution... 

But, that's yonks ago now and those records are hardly modern today!

Ed

 

some records mentioned are casino tunes !

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i used to be a sometime resident at a local oldies night, one of the promoters said to me "that they are all oldies now" with reference to stuff from the 70's and early 80's.  i would have to agree with him because i have some newer stuff (not a lot) that i wouldn't play at an oldies night.

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Posted (edited)

I've been doing a list of events from 1980 onwards.

Early 81 was the first mention of a venue as being Modern Soul, the Oak Hotel, Shrewsbury, Modern Soul Sounds 70s & 80s.  That is the first reference in echoes.

The first all-nighter event reference to Modern Soul, Phil Armstrong's True Soul niter at Belindas in Leeds. Modern Soul Room with Richard, Sam and Arthur.

Clifton Hall up to 82 was basically oldies and a continuation of what was happening at Wigan, Richard featuring plenty of modern, as did Pat, Poke, Steve Mannion and Sean Hampsey.  No reference to it though.  It was as I said earlier newies or 60s and 70s.  

1981/2 would be the birth of the Modern Soul scene as a scene on its own.  As more and more Modern Soul was featured the 60s crowd began to feel pushed out and we would see the rise of the 6ts Mafia.  There would be still plenty of modern featured in main rooms but we would begin to see the second room for Modern sounds and over the next few years Modern Soul would practically disappear from all-nighters with just maybe one Dj who did an hour of 70s and the Modern Soul crowd would go their own way.

Edited by chalky

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12 hours ago, TOAD said:

some records mentioned are casino tunes !

But Richard was a Clifton Hall resident as well as Wigan.  Arthur and Sam also did a fair few trades with Richard so maybe some did start life at Snaith and then onto the Casino/Clifton Hall.

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Posted (edited)
On 05/04/2019 at 21:42, Spain pete said:

New northern soul for a new millennium , "cafe reggios"  Gary the master blaster 

Er no. That is a simply an exact remake of a mix (Isaac Hayes and a radio piece by fast talking DJ Garry 'The Master Blaster' ***forget his second name***) that Les Cokell did in the mid 70s (we have the original on one of Les' tapes somewhere).

Dx
 

 

Edited by DaveNPete

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19 minutes ago, DaveNPete said:

Er no. That is a simply an exact remake of a mix (Isaac Hayes and a radio piece by fast talking DJ Garry 'The Master Blaster' ***forget his second name***) that Les Cokell did in the mid 70s (we have the original on one of Les' tapes somewhere).

Dx
 

 

I know that but go to the top of the class l was simply quoting the cover of a goldmine soul supply  album  so l will try again New northern soul for a new millennium  look back over your shoulder Archie bell and the drells  😜

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Posted (edited)

Yes - think it was probably me that actually wrote that wording (look who designed it on the back) : )

Must admit I don't like the stuff on the CD - most of it's neither one thing or the other.

Dx

Edited by DaveNPete

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I'm not so sure 'Northern Soul' isn't a dance genre rather than a genre of music.  You see in my befuddled head the people in northern England who danced to obscure sixties soul music created a dance movement they didn't create music. They discovered music they enjoyed dancing a style of dance to. Tracks so co-opted became Northern Soul. So, if it fits as a Northern Soul dance, its Northern Soul music. 🙂

Talk of 'modern' isn't even relevant in my mind (I'm a dancer).   Watch a video of 'Northern Soul' being danced, with the sound muted and you'll see what I mean.

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Absolutely spot on apart from being a northern area thing if you could dance in 1970 the progression of high tempo obscure sounds made it absolutely unmissable 

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2 hours ago, DavidRowe said:

I'm not so sure 'Northern Soul' isn't a dance genre rather than a genre of music.  You see in my befuddled head the people in northern England who danced to obscure sixties soul music created a dance movement they didn't create music. They discovered music they enjoyed dancing a style of dance to. Tracks so co-opted became Northern Soul. So, if it fits as a Northern Soul dance, its Northern Soul music. 🙂

Talk of 'modern' isn't even relevant in my mind (I'm a dancer).   Watch a video of 'Northern Soul' being danced, with the sound muted and you'll see what I mean.

I guess the concensus is if it sounds soulful to you, and you can dance to it, then it can well be Northern Soul.  It's flexible on soulfullness but not so much danceability..

However you cant shuffle to afternoon of the rhino anymore than you can stomp to house for sale.

Modern generally follows the soulful disco style and the dance style that goes with it.

So I would agree it can all be Northern Soul to some even if it's soulful disco or r n b to others. 

Modern clearly should really just be a tag for current and recent releases.

Ed

 

 

 

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Isn't it just really a carried on genre from the  jazz-funk/disco  era at as it was called back in the day ,Eddie Holman ,brainstorm,silvetti, curtis ,which were played at both venues ie Wigan/ritz/mecca but crossed over from the origins of the afore mentioned as today as previously mentioned angie stone which has done the rounds in both rooms,for me though MODERNDoes not get played in the northern rooms you can shove the likes of tribute,standing on solid etc and keep em in the northern quarter,  check out Tom Moulton's remixes,opolpopo ,dimitri from Paris as an example THAT IS modern soul ...back to me bunker now 

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