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Ric-Tic Records on CD + unreleased tracks?


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As a young teenager when US records started appearing over here, Ric-Tic was the one that really stood out and threw up some great tracks. Stuff by San Remo Strings, Bob Wilson, Al Kent, Edwin Starr, Laura Lee all fuelled a search for ever more obscure tracks, even a ZTSC numbered record had to be bought blind. I believe someone has a Ric-Tic tattoo and my school books had the logo scribbled on them.

Some fifty plus years later the records are mostly quite common and cheap yet I don't think the label has ever had a decent CD treatment similar to Shrine, Mirwood, RCA, Okeh etc. Anyone explain why? The popular tracks are scattered amongst various compilations but there must be enough other records to make a decent couple of CDs. 

When Motown bought the label I'd have thought there would have been quite a lot of recorded tracks ready for issue but then shelved. What happened to the tapes, did Motown get them?

Ace/Kent recent All Turned On CD included a couple of Ric-Tic tracks with extended playing times so the tapes must be available. Maybe @Ady Croasdell ,@Gilly or others would be able to come up with some answers.

I'd also include Wingate and Golden World for a CD compilation and are there any unreleased tracks?

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I heard a guest, from Detroit, on Richard searling's show say he'd seen kids rolling the master reels down the road. He went onto imply Berry Gordy had laid waste to golden world studios, leaving it intentionally uncared for, to stop anyone else using it. 

1 hour ago, Rick Cooper said:

As a young teenager when US records started appearing over here, Ric-Tic was the one that really stood out and threw up some great tracks. Stuff by San Remo Strings, Bob Wilson, Al Kent, Edwin Starr, Laura Lee all fuelled a search for ever more obscure tracks, even a ZTSC numbered record had to be bought blind. I believe someone has a Ric-Tic tattoo and my school books had the logo scribbled on them.

Some fifty plus years later the records are mostly quite common and cheap yet I don't think the label has ever had a decent CD treatment similar to Shrine, Mirwood, RCA, Okeh etc. Anyone explain why? The popular tracks are scattered amongst various compilations but there must be enough other records to make a decent couple of CDs. 

When Motown bought the label I'd have thought there would have been quite a lot of recorded tracks ready for issue but then shelved. What happened to the tapes, did Motown get them?

Ace/Kent recent All Turned On CD included a couple of Ric-Tic tracks with extended playing times so the tapes must be available. Maybe @Ady Croasdell ,@Gilly or others would be able to come up with some answers.

I'd also include Wingate and Golden World for a CD compilation and are there any unreleased tracks?

Seen Hayley promoting an unreleased version, with false start of Al Kent recently. 

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25 minutes ago, Geeselad said:

I heard a guest, from Detroit, on Richard searling's show say he'd seen kids rolling the master reels down the road. He went onto imply Berry Gordy had laid waste to golden world studios, leaving it intentionally uncared for, to stop anyone else using it. 

Seen Hayley promoting an unreleased version, with false start of Al Kent recently. 

Golden World studio was secured and cared for by Gordy as it became Motown Studio B

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rick Cooper said:

As a young teenager when US records started appearing over here, Ric-Tic was the one that really stood out and threw up some great tracks. Stuff by San Remo Strings, Bob Wilson, Al Kent, Edwin Starr, Laura Lee all fuelled a search for ever more obscure tracks, even a ZTSC numbered record had to be bought blind. I believe someone has a Ric-Tic tattoo and my school books had the logo scribbled on them.

Some fifty plus years later the records are mostly quite common and cheap yet I don't think the label has ever had a decent CD treatment similar to Shrine, Mirwood, RCA, Okeh etc. Anyone explain why? The popular tracks are scattered amongst various compilations but there must be enough other records to make a decent couple of CDs. 

When Motown bought the label I'd have thought there would have been quite a lot of recorded tracks ready for issue but then shelved. What happened to the tapes, did Motown get them?

Ace/Kent recent All Turned On CD included a couple of Ric-Tic tracks with extended playing times so the tapes must be available. Maybe @Ady Croasdell ,@Gilly or others would be able to come up with some answers.

I'd also include Wingate and Golden World for a CD compilation and are there any unreleased tracks?

I picked up a couple of Ric-Tic CD's several years ago both with 28 tracks called Ric-Tic relics volumes 1 & 2 and released on "SOUL WORLD" 103/104, Limited sleevenotes by a Ray Barnsdale??? and made in Thailand! Whilst they are both good quality recordings, and TBH I can't remember where I bought them, whether online or out and about, I didn't perhaps naively doubt their authenticity???? 

Doh.....I just noticed the same outlet for 2 Golden World CD's I acquired ..... so obviously not authentic...........

 

Edited by Wilxy
amend
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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Wilxy said:

I picked up a couple of Ric-Tic CD's several years ago both with 28 tracks called Ric-Tic relics volumes 1 & 2 and released on "SOUL WORLD" 103/104, Limited sleevenotes by a Ray Barnsdale??? and made in Thailand! Whilst they are both good quality recordings, and TBH I can't remember where I bought them, whether online or out and about, I didn't perhaps naively doubt their authenticity???? 

Doh.....I just noticed the same outlet for 2 Golden World CD's I acquired ..... so obviously not authentic...........

 

I have volume 1

Soul.jpg

Ray was notes writer on this other release which I don't have

https://www.oldies.com/product-view/40023G.html

Edited by Blackpoolsoul
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As I understand it, Motown acquired the Golden World studios in late 1966. Whilst the myth about competition exists, I suspect that the extra studio facilities that , by 1966, Motown needed, was the primary reason for the buy out......moonlighting musicians perhaps an annoying thing that Gordy wanted ending also contributed.

They took the studio on Davison, and the Artists, but took an option on selected Artists...i.e Edwin Starr, J.J. Barnes, , San Remo... but didn't take others. Motown had the masters of Ric Tic/Golden World, but I think only Edwin Starr and San Remo tracks were then released by Motown.

So, the reason that no OFFICIAL CD exists of Ric Tic is that Motown has never seen fit to do it. ( the worship of Ric Tic would not have applied to USA collectors in 1966.) Of course EMI UK Tamla Motown issued Ric Tic relics vinyl LP in the early 70s, to cash in on the popularity referred to above.

Interestingly, Motown never took ownership of the titles to Golden World/Ric Tic. Apparently Gordy had an  non-competition agreement with Ed Wingate  meaning that Ed would not open a label registered/ operating  in Detroit.  As a result, ED, or Joan Bratton registered Ric Tic in an adjoining state, to get around this agreement. These releases are on the Blue Ric Tic. Presumably, the ending of this BLUE label led to Motown having an option, as Fantastic Four , Al Kent etc  joined Motown.

That's as I understand it....quite happy for any correction.

 

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Posted (edited)

hqdefault.jpg.1e7f5763696a7d897e1a2d4e53bf6bec.jpgNot Cd, but you will remember there was the Ric Tic Relics Tamla Motown LP with the pictures of Ric Tic records on the cover.

A proper CD of good sound quality would be a good thing.

 

Edited by Solidsoul
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Perhaps my Dave Godin story is relevant here.

When the Ric Tic popularity was at it's peak in the UK ( Circa 1972 ?), Mr Godin wrote a very critical piece in B&S , stating that is was disgusting that Motown was sitting on Ric Tic masters and behaving like a broody hen, whose Chick were never going to hatch  ( or something along those lines). i.e. They should be releasing these tracks for UK collectors.

When , eventually, UK Tamla Motown did catch up and release J.J. Barnes, San Remo , Laura Lee on TMGs, Godin then complained , again through his column, that it was disgusting that Tamla Motown were issuing these  Ric Tic tracks ....and fraudulently passing them off as there own.

I wrote a letter to B&S pointing out Godin's hypocracy on this subject, but they didn't respond or print my letter.

Mr Godin was critical of Motown on many occasions in his columns.

I have a view on that, but not sure it can be substantiated .

 

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6 minutes ago, Owd Codger said:

Perhaps my Dave Godin story is relevant here.

When the Ric Tic popularity was at it's peak in the UK ( Circa 1972 ?), Mr Godin wrote a very critical piece in B&S , stating that is was disgusting that Motown was sitting on Ric Tic masters and behaving like a broody hen, whose Chick were never going to hatch  ( or something along those lines). i.e. They should be releasing these tracks for UK collectors.

When , eventually, UK Tamla Motown did catch up and release J.J. Barnes, San Remo , Laura Lee on TMGs, Godin then complained , again through his column, that it was disgusting that Tamla Motown were issuing these  Ric Tic tracks ....and fraudulently passing them off as there own.

I wrote a letter to B&S pointing out Godin's hypocracy on this subject, but they didn't respond or print my letter.

Mr Godin was critical of Motown on many occasions in his columns.

I have a view on that, but not sure it can be substantiated .

 

Perhaps it was a love hate relationship 😀

Dave.jpg

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Geeselad said:

I heard a guest, from Detroit, on Richard searling's show say he'd seen kids rolling the master reels down the road. He went onto imply Berry Gordy had laid waste to golden world studios, leaving it intentionally uncared for, to stop anyone else using it. 

Seen Hayley promoting an unreleased version, with false start of Al Kent recently. 

Actually, the opposite is true.

Golden World studio became increasingly important to  Motown as Studio B. This studio was used for vocals, both lead and backing vocals, sweetening such as Strings and horns, overdubs. etc. With increased recording technology, it meant that producers could improve their productions.

Golden World's Detroit studio was only  in operation for about 18 months before Motown acquired it. Conversion from 3 track to 8 track was required. So, many well loved "Detroit" Golden World classics were actually recorded in New York.

The producers, many being of a superstitious nature, continued to record rhythm tracks at Studio A ( Hitsville) were many hits were cut.

Edited by Owd Codger
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2 hours ago, Wilxy said:

I picked up a couple of Ric-Tic CD's several years ago both with 28 tracks called Ric-Tic relics volumes 1 & 2 and released on "SOUL WORLD" 103/104, Limited sleevenotes by a Ray Barnsdale??? and made in Thailand! Whilst they are both good quality recordings, and TBH I can't remember where I bought them, whether online or out and about, I didn't perhaps naively doubt their authenticity???? 

Doh.....I just noticed the same outlet for 2 Golden World CD's I acquired ..... so obviously not authentic...........

 

I think I've got the Ric-Tic Relics CDs stuck in the loft somewhere, bought them years ago as there was nothing else available then (or now). The sound quality seems to deteriorate on these Soul World and Soul Kitchen discs over the years so would  welcome an official release using original master tapes.

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Hi Rick,

It could be that Motown only have the masters of the Artists who contracts were acquired .

Whilst it would be nice to get them, it will probably not happen. You'd have thought that Ace/Kent, or similar, would have jumped on this.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Rick Cooper said:

As a young teenager when US records started appearing over here, Ric-Tic was the one that really stood out and threw up some great tracks. Stuff by San Remo Strings, Bob Wilson, Al Kent, Edwin Starr, Laura Lee all fuelled a search for ever more obscure tracks

Ace/Kent recent All Turned On CD included a couple of Ric-Tic tracks with extended playing times so the tapes must be available.

I'd also include Wingate and Golden World for a CD compilation and are there any unreleased tracks?

The Golden World unreleased tapes were certainly found.  I remember that in around 1990, many Golden World/Ric-Tic and Groovesville (Don Davis) tapes of 1965-66 recordings were issued on (homemade) bootleg cassette tapes, seemingly made specifically for The Northern Soul Scene.  The Golden World/Ric-Tic tapes had to have been what that company had left as unissued recordings when Motown took over in 1966, and there may also have been some from the Blue Ric-Tic period.  And the Groovesville recordings included some from when Don Davis worked for Golden World, and others when he was completely independent, and also working as Solid Hitbound Productions (late 1966, 1967-1968). 

Edited by Robbk
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30 minutes ago, Robbk said:

The Golden World unreleased tapes were certainly found.  I remember that in around 1990, many Golden World/Ric-Tic and Groovesville (Don Davis) tapes of 1965-66 recordings were issued on (homemade) bootleg cassette tapes, seemingly made specifically for The Northern Soul Scene.  The Golden World/Ric-Tic tapes had to have been what that company had left as unissued recordings when Motown took over in 1966, and there may also have been some from the Blue Ric-Tic period.  And the Groovesville recordings included some from when Don Davis worked for Golden World, and others when he was completely independent, and also working as Solid Hitbound Productions (late 1966, 1967-1968). 

Hi Robb

Do you remember what the Golden World tracks were on the cassettes. If you're referring to the tapes Rod and Dave had I thought they were only Motown tracks. It would be great to hear unreleased Tamiko Jones, Carl Carlton, Adorables and Parliaments but maybe not so much  the Reflections tracks.

Goldmine issued CDs of the Groovesville and Solid Hitbound  tracks from Don Davis including some Golden World recordings so would these have been only those done by Davis.

Any idea about what happened to the Wingate tapes?

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Rick Cooper said:

Hi Robb

Do you remember what the Golden World tracks were on the cassettes. If you're referring to the tapes Rod and Dave had I thought they were only Motown tracks. It would be great to hear unreleased Tamiko Jones, Carl Carlton, Adorables and Parliaments but maybe not so much  the Reflections tracks.

Goldmine issued CDs of the Groovesville and Solid Hitbound  tracks from Don Davis including some Golden World recordings so would these have been only those done by Davis.

Any idea about what happened to the Wingate tapes?

 

 

Berry Gordy would have got the tapes when Ed sold up to him ?

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I don’t think the story of tapes being rolled down the hill etc are Wingate/Golden World/Ric tic related.  I thought they came from when Motown left Detroit and vacated the Woodward building, think thats the name from memory. 

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Motown have never been very good with regards to their back catalogue especially unreleased and commercial failures. Its only really in recent years when other saw the real value and put stuff out that anything was ever done.

Did Motown own the publishing for Wingate? Myto was it?

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Lots of papers/memorabilia were indeed left behind in the Woodward Donovan building when Motown left.

Many stories of crates of stuff just thrown away. Some people picked up things that  lucky Motown collectors eventually got their hands on

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9 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Motown have never been very good with regards to their back catalogue especially unreleased and commercial failures. Its only really in recent years when other saw the real value and put stuff out that anything was ever done.

Did Motown own the publishing for Wingate? Myto was it?

According to SDF ( Golden World Story) Motown acquired Myto

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4 hours ago, Owd Codger said:

According to SDF ( Golden World Story) Motown acquired Myto

This is correct.  That is why Ed Wingate and Joanne Bratton used "RicTic Music" as their in-house publisher after their buyout in 1966.

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5 hours ago, Chalky said:

I don’t think the story of tapes being rolled down the hill etc are Wingate/Golden World/Ric tic related.  I thought they came from when Motown left Detroit and vacated the Woodward building, think thats the name from memory. 

This is correct.  This happened when outside people got into the abandoned, dilapidated Woodward Building, and found things Motown's people didn't care to take with them to L.A many years before, during the initial move.  There were several ruined acetates and studio demos.  But, I don't think any of them were unknown Wingate -produced recordings.

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Posted (edited)

Just wondering, which Ric Tic artists did get releases on Motown after the buy-out? I remember Edwin Starr, Fantastic Four, Flaming Embers and San Remo Strings. Anybody else?

Edit: by releases I don't necessarily mean new recordings.

Edited by Benji
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Posted (edited)

After the 66 buy out, I think that it was only the Fantastic Four. Flaming Ember never joined Motown.

Staffers Richard Morris, Al Kent did join Motown. Of course Al Kent had 45s on Blue "new" Ric Tic ( post 66 buyout).

Freddie Gorman returned to Motown and joined The Originald.

J.J.  Barnes was taken on in the 66 buy out but Motown never issued anything he recorded for them.

 

Edited by Owd Codger
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I was talking mainly about reissues of the Ric-Tic stuff. I know of Edwin Starr (couple of albums I recall), San Remo Strings ("Golden Strings Swing"), Fantastic Four ("Best of"). Flaming Ember had releases on Rare Earth but I'm not sure without checking if they were new material or previously recorded.

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I don't recall Flaming Ember on Rare Earth but I could be wrong.

A few Edwin Starr tracks were on Soul Master LP. After that..100% Motown.

San Remo had Ric Tic tracks issued on LP.

Fantastic Four LP was 100% Ric Tic stuff.

Nothing issued at all on JJ Barnes

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Posted (edited)

no problem.

I'm no expert on Recording Contracts, but I'm fairly certain that for a Record Company to issue a recording, they must have contracts in place.

This is the reason given to Motown Collectors as to why  sometimes " in demand" items are not issued.

I think the majority of Golden World artists were not " signed" by Motown....They had a surplus of artists so why take artists with no name value on board?

Edwin ..yes...several hits...a good investment.

San Remo....the Detroit Symphony Orchestra playets....who were already recording at Motown

 

JJ Barnes.....the legend of Motown or Marvin Gaye needing to supress him??

Fantastic Four....popular group in Detroit with some chart clout.

But Motown, whilst probably acquiring the Ric Tic/ G W catalogue, saw no commercial gain in the remainder of the artists or tracks. If Motown had shown an interest in releasing old GW tracks, I would have thought Compilations of The Relections hits would have been favourite. The fact that UK Tamla Motown did release tracks by The Reflections, Laura Lee, Al Kent, Mark 111 trio ( Wingate 45) suggests that they did have the masters. As Robb says, unreleased stuff ( Don Davis) was probably not wanted by Motown...if indeed they knew of their existence.

It always struck me that the Ric Tic relics LP was a mishmash. EMI probably didn't know what they were sitting on, cashing in but a bit of a poor attempt...who advise them regarding GW/ Ric Tic catalogue.?

 

 

Edited by Owd Codger
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Motown's tape library, owned and managed by UMG is housed in New York.

If the Ric Tic/ Golden World masters are still at Motown ( i.e. things like Barbara Mercer, Adorables, Pat Lewis, Tamiko Jones, Debonaired etc, ) then presumably they are housed in racks at UMG.

Manager Harry Weinger would probably know the position.

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2 minutes ago, Owd Codger said:

Motown's tape library, owned and managed by UMG is housed in New York.

If the Ric Tic/ Golden World masters are still at Motown ( i.e. things like Barbara Mercer, Adorables, Pat Lewis, Tamiko Jones, Debonaired etc, ) then presumably they are housed in racks at UMG.

Manager Harry Weinger would probably know the position.

It was in New Jersey twenty years ago…..unless it was moved.

 

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Posted (edited)

Hello

I could be confusing UMG offices being New York, where members of Motown Treasures forum have met HW I think.

It would make sense that the tapes were housed outside Manhattan.

Did HW give any indication of the storage of GW tapes. Presumably he is aware of UK interest?

I have no knowledge of the policies of record companies releasing material.

The recent " All turned on" CD prompts questions. Is it cheaper to re-issue tracks already released years ago....perhaps like a TV show repeat.....thus " All turned on" is on there but not " Makin' up time" for examplr. All a mystery to me.

Edited by Owd Codger
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In an attempt to locate the story of Dave Godin and Barney Ales ( which for the life of me I can't locate), I discovered I was in error regarding the closing of TMAS magazine. But in reading about this period, it clarified things that I had long ago forgotten.

TMAS published the magazine until January 1966. Then , abruptly, Dave Godin explained to readers that the TMAS would fold, to be replaced by non Motown centric Rhythm & Soul USA ( 4 copies).

Regarding the tour, after 2 years of promoting Mary Wells & Motown, he contacted Motown regarding his plan to form a Motown fan club. This led to Gordy sending him an invitation to Detroit to meet the Motown staff and artists , with a view to gain knowledge of the UK scene. Reading these early articles, and the over enthusiastic promotion of Motown in the magazine, it is easy to see how Gordy gained a false impression about Motown's UK popularity . However, a very close relationship was formed, and TMAS were given full support and crucially financial backing ( EMI also helped funding)

However, it seems an ever confident Gordy was hell bent on the 65 tour ( Mary Wells & Supremes had big UK hits late 1964) and was keen to promote the  label launch. It seems that the reality hit home to Godin, who saw that the stories of UK popularity had been over egged, and the exhausting tour details brought some reality to the situation.

Godin now backtracked, and tried to advise Gordy that it was too early for such a big undertaking. Gordy ignored him, his support and promotion seemingly not needed as much as before. However, Godin was now in a situation ,where against his better judgement,  he had to be seen to be as supportive as before....the TMAS bears this out.

Relations were strained over a period in time, and any warnings from Godin were ignored. The tour was the expected financial disaster . TMAS funding was withdrawn by Detroit and EMI and Godin was now virtually broke , as he told a friend he was up to his balls in debt!

So, it seems his relationship was soured by the ignoring of his advice, blame for the early over optimistic approach and the removal of his funding.

Now where did I read the Barney Ales story?

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16 hours ago, David Meikle said:

In case anyone missed it, Mike found this article four years ago in Detroit Free Press from May 1966.

👍

 

can still catch the original source news article here, more pics and words (view the full as it was article) though you may need to 'accept cookies' from the archive site to view all the embeds.. plus a sub/trial to the archive site for full size view

 

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On 03/06/2022 at 09:16, David Meikle said:

JJ Barnes “Please Let Me In” was in the New Jersey facility. Had the pleasure of holding it thanks to HW.

David

Was the tape the mixed version used for the single or the session tapes? Assuming the former but would be nice to know if there could ever be an instrumental.

Also do you , or anyone, know if Donni Burdick ever explained how he got the backing tapes to I Have Faith In You and I Miss My Baby (Bari Track)?

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