John Harris And The Soul Sayers Now Out On 45

But what about when you buy a new release - that has no history - or does its' history begin from that first ever time you put the needle on it?

Azza is saying ..a vinyl 45 from the 60's /70's (the eras that northern soul records are from ) has history attached to it .

New releases don't have any history ,even if they are from current bands ,unreleased cuts or re-issues .

The rest is just gonna go down the ethics of ovo politics

Azza is saying ..a vinyl 45 from the 60's /70's (the eras that northern soul records are from ) has history attached to it .

New releases don't have any history ,even if they are from current bands ,unreleased cuts or re-issues .

The rest is just gonna go down the ethics of ovo politics

 

But when I bought a record in the 70's it didn't have any history, it was a new release and had never been played.  So this theory can only be applied to second hand records, even if they were bought 40 years ago?  

They did ,you just weren't old enough to appreciate what was happening at the time

I was referring to a re-issue, not a new release. And was just inferring from a previous posters viewpoint. Didn't say anyone had to change and conform. You like vinyl for your reasons and they like it for theirs.

Not everyone is old enough to have bought records as new releases I.e. late 60's, early 70's and so they're reasons for owning the vinyl object may mean different things, as is clear in this case.

Personally, I love the history that a piece of original vinyl holds. If it could talk, I'm sure it would tell many a good story. But I also love playing vinyl, especially at home. Still got lots of modern gadgets, granted, but I also love flicking through and playing vinyl......got a few re-issue 45's and various hits Lp's for tunes that are in my all time top 50 but unaffordable. Nice to put in a ten stack on my dansette.

Of course, the tracks themselves have huge history. Many have great stories to tell that captivate us all and make us want to know more, often shrouded in mystery and rumour. That's an obsession in itself.

Edited August 23, 2013 by LilJimmyCrank

Just bagged a copy without hearing it. Is it as good as Elbowed Out? Lol

Just bagged a copy without hearing it. Is it as good as Elbowed Out? Lol

No but probably worth more in these mad times!!!!

So has anyone ever actually spoken to Johnny Harris or any of the band members about this tune ??

JC Orritt posted this picture of the De-lites on FB. Notice the name on the drum. Does anyone know of any connection?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Cheers

Phil

 

This is a good record, but the amount of SS space being taken up by it really amazes me

Only my opinion of course!!!!

This is a good record, but the amount of SS space being taken up by it really amazes me

Only my opinion of course!!!!

Probably boosted /bumped ,by the many unnecessary posts Jim

Probably boosted /bumped ,by the many unnecessary posts Jim

 

I agree. Too many unnecessary posts.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree. Too many unnecessary posts.

 

 

 

 

 

and me

I agree. Too many unnecessary posts.

 

 

 

 

 

Pete ,if you agree ,just press the like button ,instead of bumping the post ...oops I've just done it again lol

Pete ,if you agree ,just press the like button ,instead of bumping the post ...oops I've just done it again lol

I probably just said what everyone was thinking!

Can I suggest "end of thread"?

Jim

Completely sold out and wont be pressing any more. So they say!

Completely sold out and wont be pressing any more. So they say!

I wonder if they will be interested in selling the master tape ??

Interesting to see Bear Family doing this as they've been one of the leading reissue labels in the world for 30-odd years but never known them do 45s (or soul!)

Bleeding hell!!!

I give in!!!!!!

Bleeding hell!!!

I give in!!!!!!

I ain't given in I'm still interested in this thread as I've asked questions but sadly no one has answered, so will ask again,

Has anyone ever managed to find John Harris or any of the band members and got any true and factual info about this tune ?

I ain't given in I'm still interested in this thread as I've asked questions but sadly no one has answered, so will ask again,

Has anyone ever managed to find John Harris or any of the band members and got any true and factual info about this tune ?

 

The info that Marc Forrest posted came from the producer of the record. Is that true and factual enough?

The info that Marc Forrest posted came from the producer of the record. Is that true and factual enough?

Kerston may of been the producer of the 250 vynil presses but he morw than probably had nothing to do with the writing and producing of the tune as John Harris was already playing it live at gigs and because of its popularity they went to Kerston to put the tune on vynil, surely that's the only connection Kerston had with the tune, That's why I have asked if anyone has actually been in contact with John Harris or any of the band members about any true facts and info about this tune... I thought it was a simple question and going by the lack of replies I take it that no one has ever found John Harris or any of the band members..

Completely sold out and wont be pressing any more. So they say!

 

Out again tomorrow (26 Aug) from Juno in the UK, this time on Kerston. The picture cover has exactly the same front but with Kerston logo instead of Cree, back is different, and no idea about the labels. No mention of limited edition this time.

 

Cheers

Mick

Out again tomorrow (26 Aug) from Juno in the UK, this time on Kerston. The picture cover has exactly the same front but with Kerston logo instead of Cree, back is different, and no idea about the labels. No mention of limited edition this time.

 

Cheers

Mick

Got to be worth more with the Kerston logo on Surely !!!

Got to be worth more with the Kerston logo on Surely !!!

Guess that would depend if it's a bootleg v a legitimate re-issue. Imagine what would happen if someone played a bootleg of a re-issue. Do two negatives make a positive?

Guess that would depend if it's a bootleg v a legitimate re-issue. Imagine what would happen if someone played a bootleg of a re-issue. Do two negatives make a positive?

Are either legit ? Could it be a boot of a boot ?

Are either legit ? Could it be a boot of a boot ?

 

 

Ofcourse the Bear Family reissue is legit.

 

Bear Family is one of, if not the, most prolific and respected reissue label in the entire world.

actually been in contact with John Harris or any of the band members about any true facts and info about this tune... I thought it was a simple question and going by the lack of replies I take it that no one has ever found John Harris or any of the band members..

The group were USAF guys based in Germany in the 1960's. They played together in GI Clubs on military bases in the area for a short while & then moved on with their careers / lives. Their song was written by Cook / Harris, so that will be John Harris himself & another guy in the group by the name of Cook. Apart from that little or nothing is known about this short lived group made up of guys in the military that were posted to a base in Germany at around the same time (probably Ramstein airbase near K-Town aka Kaiserslautern).  

So ALL you have to do is chase down as US guy called John Harris (or one called Cook) who could be living anywhere in the US (or world) and who was (over 40 years ago) in the USAF.

TASK SHOULD BE DEAD EASY ... BUT ... I'll leave you to get on with it yourself   

Edited August 26, 2013 by Roburt

The group were USAF guys based in Germany in the 1960's. They played together in GI Clubs on military bases in the area for a short while & then moved on with their careers / lives. Their song was written by Cook / Harris, so that will be John Harris himself & another guy in the group by the name of Cook. Apart from that little or nothing is known about this short lived group made up of guys in the military that were posted to a base in Germany at around the same time (probably Ramstein airbase near K-Town aka Kaiserslautern).  

So ALL you have to do is chase down as US guy called John Harris (or one called Cook) who could be living anywhere in the US (or world) and who was (over 40 years ago) in the USAF.

TASK SHOULD BE DEAD EASY ... BUT ... I'll leave you to get on with it yourself   

 

We know all this, it has been said in this topic and previous topics.

 

Who are The Bear Family paying the royalties/licensing to?

We know all this, it has been said in this topic and previous topics.

 

Who are The Bear Family paying the royalties/licensing to?

 

It's just Bear Family mate.

I remember when I used to work at Music Master back in the 80's, cataloguing new releases, they were putting out the first real archive releases of any artist, like a huge Jerry Lee Lewis box set with tons of unissued tracks.

They are also responsible for putting out the fabulous quality copies of The Beat DVD's.

So they aren't a bunch of fly by night hustlers, they are among the best in the business and they will be paying royalties to the appropriate people.  They would also not have done this record out of the blue as they are not a soul 45 reissue label

Understand Bear Family are fully legit and one of the best at what they do, wouldn't for a minute accuse them of being dodgy but who have they licensed the track off?  Kerston?  Harris?  Might lead to some unanswered questions if you can find the licensing deal out?  I don't have a copy of the re-issue so can't see if that tells you who it is licensed from.

 

off-topic....I have The Beat DVD's, magic stuff.
 

Edited August 26, 2013 by chalky

Understand Bear Family are fully legit and one of the best at what they do, wouldn't for a minute accuse them of being dodgy but who have they licensed the track off?  Kerston?  Harris?  Might lead to some unanswered questions if you can find the licensing deal out?  I don't have a copy of the re-issue so can't see if that tells you who it is licensed from.

 

off-topic....I have The Beat DVD's, magic stuff.

 

 

My guess is they've licensed it off whoever was responsible for recording the track in Germany

My guess is they've licensed it off whoever was responsible for recording the track in Germany

 

That would be Fred Kerston.

 

There's a few expensive (nothing like this scale) LPs on Kerston, maybe Bear Family are planning a label deal. 

We know all this, it has been said in this topic and previous topics.

You don't need to tell me, tell Bearsy !!!

That would be Fred Kerston.

 

There's a few expensive (nothing like this scale) LPs on Kerston, maybe Bear Family are planning a label deal. 

 

Is Fred Kerston still alive or is it going to his family?  Does Kerston really own the rights to everything?  Some royalties must be paid to the writers Cook & Harris or their estate I would have thought?

Songwriters royalties are always due the writers.

Usually all the money goes to the label owner & then he has to pass a % on.

That's if Harris & Cook have registered the song with BMI / ASCAP / GEMA or the like ... AND ... that organisation knows their current contact details ....... AND that someone at Kerston / Bear Family wants to try to track them down to pass money along. 

Edited August 26, 2013 by Roburt

Songwriters royalties are always due the writers.

Usually all the money goes to the label owner & then he has to pass a % on.

That's if Harris & Cook have registered the song with BMI / ASCAP / GEMA or the like ... AND ... that organisation knows their current contact details ....... AND that someone at Kerston / Bear Family wants to try to track them down to pass money along. 

 

If they can't track them they have to at least show they have made an effort don't they and leave something in a pot in case they come forward?  Ian Dewhirst or someone will know the ins and outs.

If they can't track them they have to at least show they have made an effort don't they and leave something in a pot in case they come forward?  Ian Dewhirst or someone will know the ins and outs.

Ian Dewhirst, Ady ..... OR .. Paul Mooney.

In foreign territories (such as Germany  or the UK for Americans), I think they have to be signed up to a local rep.

AT LEAST, American song writers, to get their UK royalties, have to be signed up to the likes of Paul Mooney to be sure to get their cash (I know coz my mate Lou Ragland is signed up with Paul).

Edited August 26, 2013 by Roburt

If they can't track them they have to at least show they have made an effort don't they and leave something in a pot in case they come forward?  Ian Dewhirst or someone will know the ins and outs.

Bear Family have been going for 35 years, I'd imagine they have the legal details sorted!

 

 

Bear Family have been going for 35 years, I'd imagine they have the legal details sorted!

 

 

 

I never implied they didn't but they might have the answers Bearsy wants after all they have to have been in touch with someone to get the rights 

Edited August 26, 2013 by chalky

Well they were so friendly and helpful to me that I bet if you emailed them and asked them, they'd tell you!

That would be Fred Kerston.

 

There's a few expensive (nothing like this scale) LPs on Kerston, maybe Bear Family are planning a label deal. 

 

The name's Alferd Kersten, not Kerston. Owner and main producer of Kerston records. He's still alive. John Harris was reissued using the original tapes. Very likely IMHO they came from him and Bear Family licenced from him.

The name's Alferd Kersten -- Owner and main producer of Kerston records. He's still alive. John Harris was reissued using the original tapes. Very likely IMHO they came from him and Bear Family licenced from him.

Bet he (& Bear Family) has no idea where John Harris is today though (or knows how to contact him anymore).

I never implied they didn't but they might have the answers Bearsy wants after all they have to have been in touch with someone to get the rights 

That's why I have asked if John Harris or any of the band members were ever found as I would of thought they would have to of given permission surely to re-issue their tune. Unless of course they wavered all rights to their tune once they put it on Kerstons label.

As John Harris has never been found and yes I have tried for a long time to try find him with not even a sniff as you never know he might just have a few tucked away..

I have had a few people get in contact with me and they too have tried with no luck so maybe the John Harris mystery will never be solved just who he really was.

 if John Harris or any of the band members were ever found as I would of thought they would have to of given permission surely to re-issue their tune. 

 

It's the label owner who gives permission / grants a license to release a track not the artist (unless the artist holds the rights coz they reverted to him after a set number of years  --- but usually that's not the case).

Edited August 26, 2013 by Roburt

The writer(s) will still get royalties and Bear Family will have to set something aside incase they come forward if they couldn't be found as I understand it?

Ian Dewhirst, Ady ..... OR .. Paul Mooney.

In foreign territories (such as Germany  or the UK for Americans), I think they have to be signed up to a local rep.

AT LEAST, American song writers, to get their UK royalties, have to be signed up to the likes of Paul Mooney to be sure to get their cash (I know coz my mate Lou Ragland is signed up with Paul).

 

Hello John

It isn't necessary for American artists or even writers to sign with a UK or EU agent or music publisher to get royalties but it's easier for them to benefit and control activity and take advantage of opportunities if they have representation.

 

Not only is the market different in each territory, the language barrier can be a problem and copyright legislation is also different in many countries (that's why my company is represented by Imagem Music Group in most other territories).

Because this John Harris record was a private press rather than a commercial issue it's likely that there wasn't a detailed agreement for the recording and I doubt Harris assigned the song to a publisher or joined a copyright society. If he had done he might have been easier to trace.

 

Kerston may have held some rights (or options) but it may be that all they had was possession of the master tapes.

So we can only assume that Bear Famiy obtained a master license from someone, most likely the artist or Kerston, or have issued the record with the intention of negotiating and paying royalties when and if they locate the owner or when a claim is made. I'm not suggesting they did that but it's a risk some people take and the assumption is that the owner won't object.

Because of the internet it's likely that John Harris or someone who knows him will come forward at some stage, especially if there's some money due to him.

 

To answer Chalky's point, yes the record company is liable to pay mechanical royalties to the publishers / writers of the song if it's registered with the copyright society in that territory or later if a retroactive claim is made but there are different statutes of limitations in different territories. In the UK, for example, in theory you can claim retroactively for up to to six years on mechanicals and two years on performance and broadcast royalties. That also assumes the record company which owes the money is still in business.

 

Paul

 

Edited August 26, 2013 by Paul

Ian Dewhirst, Ady ..... OR .. Paul Mooney.

In foreign territories (such as Germany  or the UK for Americans), I think they have to be signed up to a local rep.

AT LEAST, American song writers, to get their UK royalties, have to be signed up to the likes of Paul Mooney to be sure to get their cash (I know coz my mate Lou Ragland is signed up with Paul).

In the UK labels have to get publishing licence (representing song/composers /song publisher) from Mechanical Copyright Protection Society.. If the MCPS do not represennt the song they make no immediate claim (they can come back!) and declare it as copyright control.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Neil Rushton

In the UK labels have to get publishing licence (representing song/composers /song publisher) from Mechanical Copyright Protection Society.. If the MCPS do not represennt the song they make no immediate claim (they can come back!) and declare it as copyright control.

And as I understand matters, if a song is designated as copyright control, the royalties (for the record release & radio plays) goes into a central kitty that eventually gets doled out to impoverished British ex-recording artists (down on their luck).

So for all the US recorded UK released soul tracks that were MCPS copyright control, not one penny in royalties has ever found its way to any of those US recording artists.

MAY BE WRONG HERE but don't believe I am. 

That's why US artists need to be signed to a decent label (Ace / Kent, etc) or be represented by Paul Mooney or his like over here.

Hello John,

The procedure you describe is closer to what happens with performance and broadcast royalties and fees collected by PRS. They distribute those royalties to various publishers and writers based on broadcast data and sample surveys but in the case of any amounts which they can't distribute (because there is no registration or no active publisher etc) they eventually distribute those amounts to other PRS members on a proportional basis. In theory it could mean that someone like Paul McCartney might earn a few extra pounds that should have been due to an obscure writer who isn't a member.

So the 'central kitty' you mentioned (or 'black box' as some call it) is for royalties which can't be distributed at that time and they are usually held for two years before they are allocated to other members. The calculation of public performance and broadcasting royalties is not always an exact science because most income is from blanket licenses but precise broadcast data (such as cue sheets etc) is only obtained from a few sources - the rest is "assumed" based on partial sample surveys etc.

 

American writers who don't have a UK publisher can at least claim the writer share (50%) of PRS royalties via American societies such as BMI or ASCAP because the societies are all affiliated with each other. Obviously the writers need to have active memberships of BMI or ASCAP and all of their songs need to be registered. 

 

As for MCPS, the mechanical royalty system is more scientific and royalties are not actually collected unless there is a current registration from an MCPS member (or an affiliated member through a foreign copyright society) so when a song is credited as 'Copyright Control' it means that no money is paid by the record company at that time - although they are obliged to pay at a later date if a registration or retroactive claim is made. There are limitations but once six years have passed you can definitely kiss goodbye to any unclaimed mechanicals.

 

Best wishes,

 

Paul
 

 

P.S. Other copyright societies - such as BUMA, GEMA and STEMRA etc in the EU - are also linked with PRS so in theory the writers can earn from foreign broadcasts via whatever society they are members of. It all needs careful registrations and notifications and in some cases the society needs to be specifically informed to look for overseas income on particular songs. After that it can take more than a year for any royalties to reach the writers.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Paul