My understanding it was a one off acetate that someone thought was the ringleaders..

1- is it the Ringleaders

2- who discovered it/played it first?

3- I understand it was bootlegged on a Mpac look a like anyone confirm

the full sp would help if someone has the time...

In advance...thank you.

Yes it is The Ringleaders.

Two acetates featuring the unreleased All Of My Life/Win You Over and the M-Pac 45 Baby What Has Happened/Let's Start Over. The acetates have the sides of the released single on two separate discs. I can't remember which sides of the single back which of the unreleased tracks.

Dave Thorley will be able to fill in more of the blanks but it is my understanding that he obtained the two acetates from Soul Bowl and was the first to spin them at Stafford. I believe they were eventually sold back to John Anderson, then owned for over a decade by a collector who had John Manship auction them last year. Don't think it's any secret that they ended up with Butch. The price was a bargain considering what other, far less exclusive and important records have sold for from the same source.

Let's face it, these are rarer than Frank Wilson on Soul, but have never had as much hype surrounding them as that exalted release.

There was an attempt to bootleg AOML on a look-a-like release. This bootleg emanated from Las Vegas in the early 90s I think. I've never seen one in the flesh, but it has a harmony ballad side which is categorically not The Ringleaders on the reverse. Can't remember if that's also a previously unreleased track as well. Another bootleg of it is as the spurious, non-existent 'Four Temples' on one of the Goldmine Millionaires CDs.

Boba on here has met the last surviving member of the group and will be able to offer more information. They were from Michigan, I think, but anyway there's quite a detailed thread about the various twists and turns somewhere on here.

Hi Paul hope your well mate. There was a long topic on this site last year I think. I remember Dave Thorley giving his comments and few others with far more knowledge than myself. I think Dave was once the owner of this accetate only and it was played at Stafford. The Mpac is a pressing and regularly goes on ebay for £15.00

I can not remeber if was confirmed to be the Ringleaders but others will put you right I am sure. What a brilliant soul tune though!!!!

Yes it is The Ringleaders.

Two acetates featuring the unreleased All Of My Life/Win You Over and the M-Pac 45 Baby What Has Happened/Let's Start Over. The acetates have the sides of the released single on two separate discs. I can't remember which sides of the single back which of the unreleased tracks.

Dave Thorley will be able to fill in more of the blanks but it is my understanding that he obtained the two acetates from Soul Bowl and was the first to spin them at Stafford. I believe they were eventually sold back to John Anderson, then owned for over a decade by a collector who had John Manship auction them last year. Don't think it's any secret that they ended up with Butch. The price was a bargain considering what other, far less exclusive and important records have sold for from the same source.

Let's face it, these are rarer than Frank Wilson on Soul, but have never had as much hype surrounding them as that exalted release.

There was an attempt to bootleg AOML on a look-a-like release. This bootleg emanated from Las Vegas in the early 90s I think. I've never seen one in the flesh, but it has a harmony ballad side which is categorically not The Ringleaders on the reverse. Can't remember if that's also a previously unreleased track as well. Another bootleg of it is as the spurious, non-existent 'Four Temples' on one of the Goldmine Millionaires CDs.

Boba on here has met the last surviving member of the group and will be able to offer more information. They were from Michigan, I think, but anyway there's quite a detailed thread about the various twists and turns somewhere on here.

There you go as I said more information would come from members with excellent knowledge!

THANKS

Here's the photo Boba posted of the group....

There you go as I said more information would come from members with excellent knowledge!

In the interview vandy lane confirms it is the group. The group is from saginaw, mi, which is where lj reynolds and stevie wonder are from.

I didn't know about that pressing or the acetate. I know that song well. I must have it by a different Chicago artist/group (but can't place it). It had a fuller sound. Was that song recorded by another One-derful/Mar-V-Lus/M-Pac artist or group? Or was it sung by an artist on a different small Chicago label?

Here is a copy of the Bootleg, although not really a bootleg as the actual track was never released on 45, so actually a first press.

Here is a copy of the Bootleg, although not really a bootleg as the actual track was never released on 45, so actually a first press.

Is that justification/an excuse for playing it?

It was done without permission so it is most definitely a bootleg.

Is that justification/an excuse for playing it?

It was done without permission so it is most definitely a bootleg.

MMM? Nope, but then again is that what I said? I was simply showing RobbK a copy of the bootleg as he said he didn't know about them.

Edited November 24, 201212 yr by Steve Luigi

Sorry Gareth but an acetate went through ebay a year or so ago and I thought Mr B got that one cause of a play a few weeks later @ the100. So 3 copys even if Mr B's came from the JM Auction.

MMM? Nope, but then again is that what I said? I was simply showing RobbK a copy of the bootleg as he said he know about them.

As well as showing Robb the boot, you said not really a bootleg but actually a first press. It is 100% a bootleg. I was simply wondering why you would say that?

It was on a Goldmine CD Robb as The Four Temples.

I didn't know about that pressing or the acetate. I know that song well. I must have it by a different Chicago artist/group (but can't place it). It had a fuller sound. Was that song recorded by another One-derful/Mar-V-Lus/M-Pac artist or group? Or was it sung by an artist on a different small Chicago label?

Sorry Gareth but an acetate went through ebay a year or so ago and I thought Mr B got that one cause of a play a few weeks later @ the100. So 3 copys even if Mr B's came from the JM Auction.

I only know of the two acetates that now live with Butch, the titles which Garth mentions. Didn't they live with a Cambridgeshire/east of England collector for many years before JM auctioned them?

A bit confusing but the b-side of the boot isnt on one of THE acetate.

I am confused by this exchange (parts of each post edited out).

not really a bootleg as the actual track was never released on 45, so actually a first press

It was done without permission so it is most definitely a bootleg.

MMM? Nope, but then again is that what I said?

Anyways, a bootleg is something pressed without being properly licensed, not a second press of a first press. A second press is not a bootleg if it's not licensed.

I only know of the two acetates that now live with Butch, the titles which Garth mentions. Didn't they live with a Cambridgeshire/east of England collector for many years before JM auctioned them?

Were those on JM's 2 x 10" ?

I am confused by this exchange (parts of each post edited out).

Anyways, a bootleg is something pressed without being properly licensed, not a second press of a first press. A second press is not a bootleg if it's not licensed.

What confusing Bob? Steve said it was an actual first press not a bootleg, I simply said it was most definately a bootleg as done without permission. What is confusing about that?

Were those on JM's 2 x 10" ?

That scan is the one that went through eBay I think and believe to be a fake. Sure Dave Thorley said it isn't like the labels on his acetates and sure the originals are credited to the Ringleaders.

Both ten inch the ones through JM Simon.

What confusing Bob? Steve said it was an actual first press not a bootleg, I simply said it was most definately a bootleg as done without permission. What is confusing about that?

I am not confused by your post, I was confused by the response to it, and was agreeing with you and clarifying why.

I am not confused by your post, I was confused by the response to it, and was agreeing with you and clarifying why.

No worries Bob, I was confused by your confusion

It was on a Goldmine CD Robb as The Four Temples.

I don't think I heard that CD, or got the recording of the song from the CD on a hand-made CD from a friend. So, I think I hve a recording of that song, sung by some other artist (probably on a small Chicago label-that may or may not have had a connection to The Leaner Bros. and their companies). So, that's why I'll ask Bob A. and any of you others that are knowledgeable of mid-late '60s obscure Chicago Soul records, if you know of another artist/group who sang that song.

No worries Bob, I was confused by your confusion

All this confusion

I don't think I heard that CD, or got the recording of the song from the CD on a hand-made CD from a friend. So, I think I hve a recording of that song, sung by some other artist (probably on a small Chicago label-that may or may not have had a connection to The Leaner Bros. and their companies). So, that's why I'll ask Bob A. and any of you others that are knowledgeable of mid-late '60s obscure Chicago Soul records, if you know of another artist/group who sang that song.

The Four Temples was wrongly credited as the act that recorded this track on the CD. Don't know where Goldmine got their info from but it was wrong, think Tim said Four Temples was written on a tape box or something like. Pretty sure in the interview with BobA they confirmed they were never known or recorded as the Four Temples.

Didn't Poke have one of these and Play it pre-Stafford? At one point he had several Audiodisc acetates, "Shooting high", and Accents "You better think again" to name just a couple I had off him.

Here is a previous topic where Dave and John Manship explain more about the original acetates.

Totally agree Chalky,Dave was dossing at my place when he came back from Soul Bowl with the Ringleaders -completely different label Audisonic?audiodisc? ten inchers same time as he got Popcorns "Turn up the heat" and the sweet darlin alternative cuts

Steve

(surprised my memory is anygood after all that beer and chemicals )

Think a few memories suffering the same Steve

Ok here my bit…………….

I got the two 10” discs about 82 from John Anderson at Soul Bowl. I was on one of my regular trips down there with Ady Pountain and had spent up my budget for the trip, in there was the first copy of The Empires, the white test pressing of Geno Washington — Rat Race and a bunch of other things, at the end of the day, we totalled everything up and I paid John. Now he had this awful habit of then pulling out a few things, playing them to you and saying ‘what do you think of this’, he played the two discs and I said ‘fantastic John, but I can’t afford them’ he smiled and said ‘that’s OK you can owe me for them’ and so I went into the famous credit book for the first, but not last time !!! They cost me £600 for the two, which was about 3 month’s wages back then.

I remember driving home with Ady beaming from ear to ear and discussing which tracks to cover up. So on the way home we came up with Johnny & The Mondells for the The Empires and The Detroit Five for the Geno Washington.

John told me at the time I got them that he had got them from the Leaner Brothers in Chicago. One disc had ‘baby what has happened/Win you over’ and the other ‘All of my life/???(Ballad). As soon as I got home I got ‘All of my life/Win you over’ cut onto a 7” acetate. The 10” discs were blank with no info on the discs, but titles written on the sleeves, common for acetates, I have many like that. I didn’t cut ‘Baby what has happened’ as I already had a copy. A week later these and the two cover ups hit the decks at Stafford and the rest is history, as they say. When Stafford finished I sold a large part of my 60’s collection back to John Anderson including these two acetates, he then sold them onto a guy in Ipswich. I did try and buy them back in the early 90’s, but he said he didn’t want to sell them. After selling them I did carry on playing the 7” dub, my choice, right or wrong !!!!, and still have it to this day. A couple of years ago John Manship contacted me to tell me he had them and was going to auction them and could I help authenticate them which I happily did. As for Tim Brown’s comments on his CD, he never asked me about the discs, but did make comment that the naming of the group for these tracks was spurious, well clearly not, especially as one of them had ‘Baby what has happened’ on one side.

The story has a twist in the tail, Butch rang me to ask me about the discs, as he was interested in bidding on them. A week later he told me he had won them and I thought no more of it. A couple of weeks later, he rang me again to tell me the discs were no good for DJing, it transpires that he took them to Lifeline, having not played them at home first. When he dropped the needle on ‘All of my life’ the sound was two low a level for the sound system there and he had to take it off half way through. After a moments pause I said, ‘Now I remember why I had them cut onto a 7” dub plate’ !!!!!!!

Nice post Dave.

Nice post Dave, good to get the history of something told as it was/is.

Is the Winsford anniversary 45 a boot as well? Did they get proper licensing?

To my knowledge, no one has ever released the tracks legally. The Leaner Brothers are now dead, the rights to the tracks sit with the family, I think one of the son's is trying to sort things out. Bob Abrahamian and others in Chicago have spoken to the group and the family and may know more.

Apologies if my memory has let me down - I am old and it was a long time ago!

Here is the track that wasn't booted on the 45

I remember "Win You Over". I didn't realise that the Ringleaders' "All of My Life" was discovered as early as 1982. I got both of those on tape back then. So, maybe I'm just remembering hearing those tapes over the past 30 years and I don't have that same song on record by another artist. It was so familiar. But, I remembered a recording with fuller sound than I hear on the uploaded MP3 on You Tube.

didnt AOML have a drum roll intro..,,seems to be missing from the boot..............dave t

Edited November 26, 201212 yr by dave pinch

And here you are Mr Thorley playing both in succession at Stafford....something...something...something.

Think one of the decks had broke?

https://www.mixcloud.com/mark-jones14/dave-thorley-stafford-playing-ringleaders-acetates/

My good old trusty C90

Edited November 26, 201212 yr by soulechoes

Never know of the drum roll at the start before.

And here you are Mr Thorley playing both in succession at Stafford....something...something...something.

Think one of the decks had broke?

https://www.mixcloud.com/mark-jones14/dave-thorley-stafford-playing-ringleaders-acetates/

My good old trusty C90

Didn't I sound young !!!!, clearly multi-tasking wasn't my strong point. Also must have been playing the original discs, as I had to change speed for one of them. Forgotten that, 'All of my life' played at 45rpm, but 'Win you over' at 331/3. This must have been the second week I played them.

As for Tim Brown’s comments on his CD, he never asked me about the discs, but did make comment that the naming of the group for these tracks was spurious, well clearly not, especially as one of them had ‘Baby what has happened’ on one side.

At the risk of playing devil's advocate here, is it not quite common for acetates to have different artists on each side, if songs are being shipped around for publishing deals or whatever? Just curious if it was instantly obvious that all four tracks were the same group?

Maybe Butch needs to get a carver cut from your acetate - now that WOULD open up a whole can of worms...

At the risk of playing devil's advocate here, is it not quite common for acetates to have different artists on each side, if songs are being shipped around for publishing deals or whatever? Just curious if it was instantly obvious that all four tracks were the same group?

Maybe Butch needs to get a carver cut from your acetate - now that WOULD open up a whole can of worms...

True, I have a bunch of Bell Sound 7" acetates that have different artists on each side. But John got them from the Leaner Brothers, the label owners, who told him they were The Ringleaders. Also, many years later this was confirmed by the group when Bob spoke to one of them.

Edited November 27, 201212 yr by Dave Thorley

True, I have a bunch of Bell Sound 7" acetates that have different artists on each side. But John got them from the Leaner Brothers, the label owners, who told him they were The Ringleaders. Also, many years later this was confirmed by the group when Bob spoke to one of them.

Just to clarify Dave's info; the titles on the acetates are;

'win you over/baby what has happened to our love'

'all of my life/let's start over' (which is the flipside of the released m-pac 7232, baby what has happened to our love)

All the sides on the acetates are recorded at a lower sound level than the released 45, which makes it difficult to get a good sound out of them unless it's on a system such as the Kings Hall or occasionally the 100 club!!

Just as a side issue, I do remember that period during the early 8ts when Dave T got the ringleaders acetates from Soul Bowl. JA had just bought all the one-derful, m-pac, mar-v-lus, midas, toddlin town stock. Numerous hundred count boxes of their 45s, including at least 100 inspirations on midas. Loads of unknown acetates and also released stuff including joseph moore, the blenders, accents, jimmie & entertainers etc. Even company playing cards with the one-derful logo!

Knee-deep in soul 45s; what a one-deful time it was !

Even company playing cards with the one-derful logo!

Can't afford the tunes but the cards be nice!...wonder what happened to those?

Can't afford the tunes but the cards be nice!...wonder what happened to those?

Was thinking exactly the same

Just to clarify Dave's info; the titles on the acetates are;

'win you over/baby what has happened to our love'

'all of my life/let's start over' (which is the flipside of the released m-pac 7232, baby what has happened to our love)

All the sides on the acetates are recorded at a lower sound level than the released 45, which makes it difficult to get a good sound out of them unless it's on a system such as the Kings Hall or occasionally the 100 club!!

Just as a side issue, I do remember that period during the early 8ts when Dave T got the ringleaders acetates from Soul Bowl. JA had just bought all the one-derful, m-pac, mar-v-lus, midas, toddlin town stock. Numerous hundred count boxes of their 45s, including at least 100 inspirations on midas. Loads of unknown acetates and also released stuff including joseph moore, the blenders, accents, jimmie & entertainers etc. Even company playing cards with the one-derful logo!

Knee-deep in soul 45s; what a one-deful time it was !

Mouth watering to say the least...great info

So!! The B-side of the boot isn't on acetates and it might not be the Ringleaders.??

10 seconds in to the intro I can hear a dog bark twice.

Just to clarify Dave's info; the titles on the acetates are;

'win you over/baby what has happened to our love'

'all of my life/let's start over' (which is the flipside of the released m-pac 7232, baby what has happened to our love)

All the sides on the acetates are recorded at a lower sound level than the released 45, which makes it difficult to get a good sound out of them unless it's on a system such as the Kings Hall or occasionally the 100 club!!

Just as a side issue, I do remember that period during the early 8ts when Dave T got the ringleaders acetates from Soul Bowl. JA had just bought all the one-derful, m-pac, mar-v-lus, midas, toddlin town stock. Numerous hundred count boxes of their 45s, including at least 100 inspirations on midas. Loads of unknown acetates and also released stuff including joseph moore, the blenders, accents, jimmie & entertainers etc. Even company playing cards with the one-derful logo!

Knee-deep in soul 45s; what a one-deful time it was !

Butch's comments now remind me that I also got a 10" acetate of The Blenders around the same time from John, which I played at Stafford for about a year, before selling it to him.

Yes it is The Ringleaders.

Two acetates featuring the unreleased All Of My Life/Win You Over and the M-Pac 45 Baby What Has Happened/Let's Start Over. The acetates have the sides of the released single on two separate discs. I can't remember which sides of the single back which of the unreleased tracks.

Dave Thorley will be able to fill in more of the blanks but it is my understanding that he obtained the two acetates from Soul Bowl and was the first to spin them at Stafford. I believe they were eventually sold back to John Anderson, then owned for over a decade by a collector who had John Manship auction them last year. Don't think it's any secret that they ended up with Butch. The price was a bargain considering what other, far less exclusive and important records have sold for from the same source.

Let's face it, these are rarer than Frank Wilson on Soul, but have never had as much hype surrounding them as that exalted release.

There was an attempt to bootleg AOML on a look-a-like release. This bootleg emanated from Las Vegas in the early 90s I think. I've never seen one in the flesh, but it has a harmony ballad side which is categorically not The Ringleaders on the reverse. Can't remember if that's also a previously unreleased track as well. Another bootleg of it is as the spurious, non-existent 'Four Temples' on one of the Goldmine Millionaires CDs.

Boba on here has met the last surviving member of the group and will be able to offer more information. They were from Michigan, I think, but anyway there's quite a detailed thread about the various twists and turns somewhere on here.

The owner of the Ringleaders during that decade was Andy Gill of Fakenham Norfolk as he was a regular visitor to Soul bowl and he spent alot of money with Mr.Anderson. Andy was a regular DJ at the Norwich Backstreet soul club spinning some great sounds. He used to spin the Tracks at the venues and knew the sound level pitch required. I remember that the AOML take had a longer intro than some of the other recordings of it.

I remember we went to one Allnighter anniversary up north and as we walked in they gave us anniversary singles. When we looked at the titles one side had the Ringleaders on it L.O.L.

I spoke to Andy the other weekend at Sunny Hunny and he still has some great vinyl.

Its a great scene .

regards Frank Norwich Back street .

I remember having that anniversary 45 it must have been Brighouse or Manchester Ritz? Gone now.

I remember having that anniversary 45 it must have been Brighouse or Manchester Ritz? Gone now.

Yes Brighouse, your right it was.

actually winsford aniversary