James Brown Godfather Of Soul, Well Is He?

[Guest Dan]

Your heavy-metal analogy doesn't quite work because it stands for a completely different cultural background. Soul culture is one specific culture, and Funk is a natural element of it.

the heavy metal thing was a joke, obviously. the point i was making was you can't call someone the godfather of soul (a ridiculous term anyway, as lots of people have pointed out) if his major contribution is to funk.

godfather of funk, maybe, i wouldn't have a clue.

gospel, funk, soul, jazz, blues...all similar culturally maybe (though that's arguable too) but not at all musically.

And I am talking about the soul culture in it's original meaning ... the African-American culture, not some Europeans (no offense, I'm European myself) who think that soul culture is reduced to northern soul, rare 45s, mod-hairstyles and riding vintage scooters (playing with stereotypes now, but you get the idea).

i don't think many, if any, people on here would disagree with you or, indeed, think that way in the first place.

Sure, James Brown has lived a turbulant life, and he is no saint by far .. but which soul singer is? Otis wasn't, Marvin wasn`t, and I'm sure that Garland Green wasn't either -- you just didn't hear about it because they didn't get the media attention James Brown got. So his private life and his troubles have nothing to do with his label as the Godfather of Soul. At least it shouldn't, but you obviously make it an issue here. Sam Cooke was a pimp, the Isley's had regular shoot-outs with rivals, George McCrae was a bigtime wife-beater and coke-addict... tell me who was clean pure?

i don't personally think his private life has anything to do with his status as a soul artist anyway - my crystal-meth remark was just a throwaway line...but i'll come back to that in a minute!

And I would agree, James Brown is not the BEST soul singer ..  but he is the one with the most impact. A whole modern musical soul culture has been inspired and evben shaped by him .. and he even had a significant poolitical impact upon his culture which still can be felt today. He's everywhere in modern sould culture,

what's your evidence for this? if by 'impact' you mean mentions in the press, maybe. otherwise, not sure i agree. if you mean 'impact' as in impact on the history of soul music, who inspired JB, for a start? what about Sam Cooke, say, or Otis Redding? they were pretty influential, no? what about Berry Gordy? one might think a lot of Motown is crossover (racially-speaking) fluff but Gordy and the Motown sound have been much more influential through the years than James Brown IMO. Could go on in this vein for quite some time.

while most of the other one-hit or no-hit wonders have faded into obscurity, which is why James Brown and nobody else is the Godfather of Soul.

you see, this is where you're wrong. the reason JB hasn't faded into obscurity is largely because of three things (IMO).

1) an amazing stage act that got him talked about a lot (but van halen had one of those).

2) one record - sex machine. this is the only record 99% of the population know JB recorded.

3) his colourful off-piste lifestyle. if he wasn't always shooting at sheriff's deputies, driving the wrong way down the freeway at 90mph while getting blowjobs from strippers and mainlining baby-bio in crack dens the papers would leave him alone.

as for the obscurity line per se, don't make the mistake of thinking that simply because someone was a one-hit (or even no-hit) wonder, they were talentless or irrelevant. lots of factors go to make a media and sales profile and, quite often, quality is not among them.

anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree...IMO JB isn't the godfather of anything other than his godchildren - there is no single godfather of soul!

thanks for the pills, by the way!

link

Edited July 7, 2005 by Dan

[Markw]

"Take it to the bridge............uhhhh!..............take it to the bridge.................owwww!............take it to the" ......OI!! BRRROWWNNN!!! for fecks sake get on with it and take it to the FECKING BRIDGE.........................horrible! Can't stand the voice and all the histrionics. "Get up offa dat thing......uhhh!"

[Guest Soulpower]

Its yet another UK made question though, most Americans would be mystified by our genrefying (is that a word? it is now!) and analysing sub cultures of black music.

I assumed Soul Power was American because he made some great points (must add some smilies or Dan will pick on me as this does read a bit serious    ) I personally dont listen to much James Brown personally but his influence on soul music as an evolving culture (in America now, not Wigan or darkest Yorkshire etc.  ) is huge, how he handled his business etc.

I think this is a good example of how we into Northern sometimes forget about the wider world of soul, and Mr Brown is a  major player in that,

Not sure I totally agree with Dayos point however about the title being totally media driven, from what I read Mr Brown was (and still is by recent evidence) very keen on being known as the greatest and marketing himself as such, and also wasn't slow at sacking people who didn't go along.

Musically his finest moment for me was Georgia On My Mind where he turns it into a magical example of deep soul at its most tortured, again not too relevant to Northern but if your tastes are wider its worth a listen.

Now onto the who invented funk question..... the UK media discuss!

Cheers

Jock

link

You have made some excellent points here, bro. I really think the problem lies within the british "northern"-genre, which often appears to be very eclectic. Let's not forget that the "northern"-scene has nothing to do with the original understanding of american soul music, but still some "norherners" act like it's the ultimate wisdom of soul music. An american growing up in the american soul scene would not understand this. He would not even know what the term "northern soul" means (he'd think you talk about chicago soul as opposed to the southern soul of Stax, Muscle Shoals, etc). "Northern" is a subculture created outside of the US, that took certain elements of American soul music. And that's ok, but I still find it quite strange when such "northerner" claims to know what real soul music is about and disses the siginificance of James Brown's legacy.

And Jock is right .. the title "Godfather of Soul" was not given to Mr Brown by the media .. or the classic media .. but by a radio DJ, and the radio DJs back in the early 70s were part of the artist's personal marketing and closer to him than the media. James Brown himself liked that term and started using it himself (for the first time on the cover of the album "Slaughter's big rip-off" from 1973). So there is absolutely no evidence for the thesis that it was all about a media hype... no, the media just picked up on it.

[Guest]

Are you guys and gals fed up with the media telling you that James Brown is the godfather of soul?, what do you think, personaly psuedos know shit all about soul music so they say the first thing that comes into their thick heads, James had some nice soulful tunes in the early days and a couple in the 70s but I would draw the line between funk and mainstream soul,

link

Hiya

This is my first post so if I screw up, understand. The thing about James Brown is that he is a true original; incedibly innovative. When we were listening to The Honeycombs and The Searchers, etc, JB was knocking ou Papa's Got a Brand New Bag !

He certainly was responsible for the funk beat but soul ? I prefersomething more melodic and emotional. Soul grew out of the 1950's R&B scene and. so. no one person can be credited with it's "invention".

By the way, having grown up in Mansfield, Notts, (I was 16 in 1969), the sounds I heard at discos were Motown and Soul with a flavour of other things such as Bob & Earl, Chuck Wood, Donnie Elbert, Bunny Sigler, Robert Parker, Dobie Gray and so on.

I am a solo singer called "The Soul Man" and I sing Motwon/soul +blues brothers/commitments stuff. I have found a few backing tracks for less mainstream material such as "Out on the Floor", "The Snake", "7 Days Too Long", "Ain't Nothing but a HOuseParty", etc.

If anyone knows a source for authentic-sounding backing tracks, I would be very interested to hear about it.

Also, can anyone correct the "Skiiing in the Snow" lyrics, below.

Skiiing in the Snow

Days are growing cold and snow's a-piling up on the hill,

Gotta get my gear out ready for a winter spill,

You know my work's lookin' tight so I'd like to be down at

And once I'm top that hill I'm gonna run on down

(Run on Down) Skiing in the snow

It's called all around, skiing in the snow

And at night we'll all stay warm in the cabins below.

A weekend there with my love, could never be greater I know.

(Beautiful baby, oh beautiful baby)

And you should see us go man we're the toughest skiers around,

Moving down the mountain, there's nobody putting us down,

Up the brow must we climb to the top of the hill,

And make it all the way down without a spill.

(Run on Down) Skiing in the snow

It's called all around, skiing in the snow

And at night we'll all stay warm in the cabins below,

A weekend there with my love, there's nothing greater I know.

(Baby down).....instrumental

With the girl that I love telling me she loves me so,

We'll have a wonderful warm, let all the winter fears go

(Run on Down) Skiing in the snow

Baby run on down, skiing in the snow

(Run on Down) Skiing in the snow

Baby run on down, skiing in the snow

Cheers

[Guest Soulpower]

Well its between him & M Jackson then the way you put it?,what a choise 

link

What has Michael Jackson to do with Soul music??

MJ is an african american POP singer, who happened to sing in a black pop group in the early 70s (that's what the Jackson 5 really was. I wouldn't go as far as calling them a soul act). But anyway, after Jackson left the 5, he went Pop and nothing but Pop.

[Guest Soulpower]

the heavy metal thing was a joke, obviously. the point i was making was you can't call someone the godfather of soul (a ridiculous term anyway, as lots of people have pointed out) if his major contribution is to funk.

godfather of funk, maybe, i wouldn't have a clue.

gospel, funk, soul, jazz, blues...all similar culturally maybe (though that's arguable too) but not at all musically.

And this is what you don't seem to get. Maybe a little research trip to the US would help. Spend some time there, maybe 6 months, go to clubs, bars, hang out at music joints and you will easily find out that James Brown is the African American Soul Icon. Yeah, he's the innovator of Funk as well ... but he was called "Soulbrother No. 1" before there was Funk (Aretha being "Soulsister No 1"). I agree with you on the silliness of the term "GFOS", but that's not the point of the debate.

i don't think many, if any, people on here would disagree with you or, indeed, think that way in the first place.

Maybe not itentionally. But the fact that you reduce James Brown to Funk is a clear indication that you really have no idea about James Brown's legacy as a soul singer. No offense, but it's quite obvious that you are a little sheltered.

i don't personally think his private life has anything to do with his status as a soul artist anyway - my crystal-meth remark was just a throwaway line...but i'll come back to that in a minute!

If it doesn't have anything to do with his status as a soul artist, why do you keep bringing it up? We all know that JB is pretty messed up, but as I pointed out before, many soul singers are/were. I see many throwaway lines in your posts on this thread, but no substantial evidence for your thesis.

what's your evidence for this? if by 'impact' you mean mentions in the press, maybe. otherwise, not sure i agree.

No, the impact on his people, on African American culture. Back in the mid- to late 1960s, James Brown was the giant in Soul music. After the assassination of MLK, he had the power to stop the Boston riots. The FBI was scared of him, because the people listened to him like no other. He was the creator of the most powerful soul dances. Like I said, if you want evidence, try to live in the soul culture for a few years and you will find out that James Brown is everywhere. You will not find a black artist who had more impact on soul music, the civil rights movement and daily life of the African American people than James Brown.

if you mean 'impact' as in impact on the history of soul music, who inspired JB, for a start? what about Sam Cooke, say, or Otis Redding?

Sure they were influential. And if Otis didn't die, he would have scared the shit out of James Brown. But Sam and Otis didn't have the determination and vision for the people that JB had. Sam Cooke was big, but he was nowhere James Brown. And to answer your question "who influenced James Brown" ...  go to southern churches and you will find out. That's where he got it from. Then a little Louis Jordan, Joe Lewis (yes, the boxing champ) ... but the rest about James Brown is original, and everybody in the 60s tried to copy James Brown.

they were pretty influential, no? what about Berry Gordy? one might think a lot of Motown is crossover (racially-speaking) fluff but Gordy and the Motown sound have been much more influential through the years than James Brown IMO. Could go on in this vein for quite some time.

I'm a huge Motown fan, but you already said it yourself .. they are crossover. If you look at videos from Motown shows of the 1960s, the audience is mostly white. Motown was a label that produced black music for white America. Easily accessible, clean-cut. Although Motown had some amazing soul singers, the music was not soul in the same league as a Joe Tex, Otis Redding or James Brown. It wasn't until the late 1960s (with the arrival of producer Norman Whitfield) that Motown was truly accepted by the African Americans. Which is why Motown played absolutely no role in the Civil Rights movement, while James Brown was it's musical icon.

you see, this is where you're wrong. the reason JB hasn't faded into obscurity is largely because of three things (IMO).

1) an amazing stage act that got him talked about a lot (but van halen had one of those).

Yes, an amazing stage act ... and this is where soul is the purest, on stage. So you actually confirm my point here.

2) one record - sex machine. this is the only record 99% of the population know JB recorded.

From your UK-perspective maybe. But not in the US. The problem with your whole argument is that you look at James Brown from the perspective of the british northern soul scene. You will never get the idea, if you don't free yourself from that and look at soul from the perspective of the creators and the people who lived the music. "Sex Machine" was huge, but it didn't define James Brown as a soul artist. There was many hits that every African American will be able to sing to you, such as "Please Please Please", "Try me", "Think", "Night Train", "Papa's got a brandnew bag", "Money won't change you", "Aint that a groove", " and the funkier soul cuts "Cold Sweat", "Mother Popcorn", "Superbad", "It's a new day" ... there is so much out there that holds more importance to soul culture than "Sex Machine".

3) his colourful off-piste lifestyle. if he wasn't always shooting at sheriff's deputies, driving the wrong way down the freeway at 90mph while getting blowjobs from strippers and mainlining baby-bio in crack dens the papers would leave him alone.

You seem a little angry here. And you are wrong again (the shelter?). All of the above didn't happen until the lowpoint of JB's career, the late 70s. Before that, there was no hard drugs, no shooting, no scandals. Which is why three US presidents were begging him to endorse them (because they knew he had his people behind him like nobody else). And what about Sam Cooke? Shot by a hooker. Marvin Gaye? A sex-maniac and coke-addict killed by his own father. Eddie Kendricks? Jimmy Ruffin? Wilson Pickett? I don't think I need to say much. So please don't make it look like as James Brown is the only weirdo in soul music.

as for the obscurity line per se, don't make the mistake of thinking that simply because someone was a one-hit (or even no-hit) wonder, they were talentless or irrelevant. lots of factors go to make a media and sales profile and, quite often, quality is not among them.

No, some one-hit-wonders made a musical impact with their hit (look at Percy Sledge's "When a man loves a woman"). But Percy Sledge had no impact on soul culture as such. I can only repeat it bro ... nobody can't touch JB's impact on a whole musical culture.

anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree...IMO JB isn't the godfather of anything other than his godchildren - there is no single godfather of soul!

We can agree to the points that 1. It`s a silly title, yes. 2. Soul music hasn't only one Godfather (Ray Charles and Sam Cooke are early innovators as well). But if you had to single out the legacy of one person, then it would be James Brown. Sorry mate.

thanks for the pills, by the way!

As long as they work .. 

[Guest Soulpower]

"Take it to the bridge............uhhhh!..............take it to the bridge.................owwww!............take it to the" ......OI!! BRRROWWNNN!!!  for fecks sake get on with it and take it to the FECKING BRIDGE.........................horrible! Can't stand the voice and all the histrionics. "Get up offa dat thing......uhhh!"

link

That's church ... and church is where soul is coming from. If you can't handle it or find it "horrible", you'd be advised to listen to Doris Day. She never walked no bridge.

[BrianB]

Never seen anyone defend their opinion on a forum as much as this. Make your point and throw it open. Don't try to overcome every one elses's opinions. It is a forum not the "I'll Defend JB Until the Day I Die" platform.

Musically, not my cup of tea.

Morally, not my cup of tea.

Has a lack of dignity and is unethical, but that's life, particularly for a black singer in the early/mid seventies in the US with all the associated difficulties.

Remember what Edwin said. "Everybody has to do what they have to do to get by"

JB has got by. Let people have their say.

[Dave Moore]

You have made some excellent points here, bro. I really think the problem lies within the british "northern"-genre, which often appears to be very eclectic. Let's not forget that the "northern"-scene has nothing to do with the original understanding of american soul music, but still some "norherners" act like it's the ultimate wisdom of soul music. An american growing up in the american soul scene would not understand this. He would not even know what the term "northern soul" means (he'd think you talk about chicago soul as opposed to the southern soul of Stax, Muscle Shoals, etc). "Northern" is a subculture created outside of the US, that took certain elements of American soul music. And that's ok, but I still find it quite strange when such "northerner" claims to know what real soul music is about and disses the siginificance of James Brown's legacy.

This is bang on. Absolutely no doubt. As someone who has/is trying to out Rare/Northern Soul to US soul fans there is no doubt that the majority of soul fans here in the US are completely puzzled by what they regard as black artists recording music made for white people. Most do NOT regard what we call soul as soul music at all. It's purely a transatlantic thing for them. Even most US collectors wouldn't class our classic dancefloor fillers as "soul". In my opinion, the success and longevity of Northern Soul is as much to do with the "scene" as it is to do with the actual music. The demographics of it's followers is also a large contributing factor. Soul Power's points are also supported by the fact that there are very few black people (on either side of the pond), that take to our style of music. The more "tortured, testifying" sound of soul is what US fans (black and white), instantly recognise as "soul". A great example of this is anomaly are The Funk Brothers. In UK Northern circles they are revered as the greatest "Soul" band ever. In the US they are perceived as the biggest "Pop" band ever. A subtle but nevertheless valid point.

At the end of the day, it's all just labelling eh? Good thread though.

Regards,

Dave

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Guest Dan]

Maybe a little research trip to the US would help. Spend some time there, maybe 6 months, go to clubs, bars, hang out at music joints and you will easily find out that James Brown is the African American Soul Icon.

I've been to the States over 30 times and lived and worked there too. But thanks for the advice!

Yeah, he's the innovator of Funk as well ... but he was called "Soulbrother No. 1" before there was Funk (Aretha being "Soulsister No 1"). I agree with you on the silliness of the term "GFOS", but that's not the point of the debate.

Let's not start on Aretha, but she ain't the No1 female soul singer either.

As for the silliness of the term, I refer you to your earlier posts where you say he is the GFOS!

Maybe not itentionally. But the fact that you reduce James Brown to Funk is a clear indication that you really have no idea about James Brown's legacy as a soul singer. No offense, but it's quite obvious that you are a little sheltered.

sheltered? i dunno, i've been collecting soul music for over 20 years and i've got most of JBs output in my collection, though i very rarely listen to any of it these days (had a bit of a flirtation with 'rare groove' in the late 80s/early 90s). 90% of it is repetitive and fairly dull.

No, the impact on his people, on African American culture. Back in the mid- to late 1960s, James Brown was the giant in Soul music. After the assassination of MLK, he had the power to stop the Boston riots. The FBI was scared of him, because the people listened to him like no other.

What has this got to do with his soul output?

He was the creator of the most powerful soul dances.

Good for him! Michael Jackson is a pretty good mover too.

Like I said, if you want evidence, try to live in the soul culture for a few years and you will find out that James Brown is everywhere. You will not find a black artist who had more impact on soul music, the civil rights movement and daily life of the African American people than James Brown.

are you actually james brown? or his agent?

And to answer your question "who influenced James Brown" ... go to southern churches and you will find out. That's where he got it from.

Been to them many times. this was a 'who watches the watchmen' argument really.

Although Motown had some amazing soul singers, the music was not soul in the same league as a Joe Tex, Otis Redding or James Brown.

Marvin Gaye? Temps? Four Tops?

Yes, an amazing stage act ... and this is where soul is the purest, on stage. So you actually confirm my point here.

No it's not, it's in the voice.

Anyway, enough of this, it must be boring the arse off everyone else. The difference between us is that you're trying to place JB in some sort of cultural setting which I couldn't give a f*** about. It don't change the way his records sound. All I'm interested is whether or not, on the basis of his music, you could call him the Godfather of Soul. And you can't. But anyway, I disagree with you, you disagree with me...let's call the whole thing off!

Edited July 7, 2005 by Dan

[vnicepce]

most Americans would be mystified by our genrefying (is that a word? it is now!) ....and analysing sub cultures of black music.

..........Now onto the who invented funk question..... the UK media discuss!

link

Good point, re fitting things(music in this case), into genres-the media like to do it because they, mostly being simple, to the point of stupidity, think the rest of us are, as well...and thus feel they must simplify things for us...!!!!!!!!

Re funk, please don't let a journo near this..I can just imagine the cringe-making statements they'd make...my two penneth, re Funk, this causes a great amount of dispute in the Jazz world, between those who do and don't like 'Funky Jazz' eg: Ramsey Lewis; I always think that Junior Walker was an early exponent of Funk, Really (roadrunner, for starters)

PS James Brown Track; I lie 'don't be a dropout'

[Guest Soulpower]

Never seen anyone defend their opinion on a forum as much as this. Make your point and throw it open. Don't try to overcome every one elses's opinions. It is a forum not the "I'll Defend JB Until the Day I Die" platform.

Musically, not my cup of tea.

Morally, not my cup of tea.

Has a lack of dignity and is unethical, but that's life, particularly for a black singer in the early/mid seventies in the US with all the associated difficulties.

Remember what Edwin said. "Everybody has to do what they have to do to get by"

JB has got by. Let people have their say.

link

I don't defend my point on this more than the other posters on this thread. And for the record, I try to keep it on topic while others make it a personal-dislike issue (JB the wife-beater, etc). And if you carefully read my posts, I don't "defend JB until I die", I rather defend his unquestionable musical legacy. But thanks for you contrubution.

[Guest Soulpower]

I've been to the States over 30 times and lived and worked there too. But thanks for the advice!

Then I seriously wonder if you spent any time outside of the pop music circles.

Let's not start on Aretha, but she ain't the No1 female soul singer either.

As for the silliness of the term, I refer you to your earlier posts where you say he is the GFOS!

Aretha is not? Well, personally she is not my favorite either ... but the status she has within the soul music community of the US is similar to that of James Brown. You may twist it as much as you like, it's simply a fact.

sheltered? i dunno, i've been collecting soul music for over 20 years and i've got most of JBs output in my collection, though i very rarely listen to any of it these days (had a bit of a flirtation with 'rare groove' in the late 80s/early 90s). 90% of it is repetitive and fairly dull.

Collecting vinyl for 20 years doesn't give you the right tp put down James Brown's legacy. The fact that you actually use the term "rare groove" (another british term to categorize music and divide soul in different genres, something that is unheard of in the US soul scene) prooves that point.

What has this got to do with his soul output?

It has everything to do with his soul output. Black America in the 60s was nothing but soul. Even the Jazz was soul (hard bop aka soul jazz). The soul movement didn't come from Hitsville, but from urban black America. Soul was the sound of the civil rights movement. And James Brown was the No 1 musical mediator between his people and the white establishment ("Say it loud", etc). That's some serious soul credentials.

Good for him! Michael Jackson is a pretty good mover too.

Yeah, and if you look at his Motown audition tapes, he's dancing the Popcorn and the Mashed Potatoes with his brothers groovin' to JB's "I got the feeling".

are you actually james brown? or his agent?

No .. lol... I'm not .. but I have been working with him for some years and fully experienced his impact and influence on soul music.

Marvin Gaye? Temps? Four Tops?

Well, no ... although their impact is unmistakenly huge, you can't compare them. The Temps were the first male pop group really. They didn't write their own music .. they were a straight Motown production. Marvin? He had the potential. But according to his biography "Divided Soul" by David Ritz, he never even wanted to be a soul singer.. he wanted to be a smooth black Frank Sinatra. Marvin didn't really become a soul singer in the true "gutbucket" sense until "What's going on". By that time, JB had been on the top for a decade already.

No it's not, it's in the voice.

Well, on stage it's about your vocal skills, isn't it? You can't fake it on stage, can you? Guess why the James Brown show is one of the greatest shows ever .. cuz it's all about the soul. Forget about the dancers for a minute, about the backround singers .. there was a time when it was only about James Brown.

Anyway, enough of this, it must be boring the arse off everyone else. The difference between us is that you're trying to place JB in some sort of cultural setting which I couldn't give a f*** about. It don't change the way his records sound. All I'm interested is whether or not, on the basis of his music, you could call him the Godfather of Soul. And you can't. But anyway, I disagree with you, you disagree with me...let's call the whole thing off!

Too bad, I was starting to enjoy this .. but regarding the cultural setting you don't give a f*** about ... it's the original soul culture setting, not what the Mods or "Northerners" made out of it. Soul music is an American cultural heritage, and I'll be damned if we let some Brits redefine it and set the rules for what is soul and what not. But thanks for the debate, bro .. it's all good. 

link

[Guest Soulpower]

This is bang on.  Absolutely no doubt. As someone who has/is trying to out Rare/Northern Soul to US soul fans there is no doubt that the majority of soul fans here in the US are completely puzzled by what they regard as black artists recording music made for white people. Most do NOT regard what we call soul as soul music at all. It's purely a transatlantic thing for them. Even most US collectors wouldn't class our classic dancefloor fillers as "soul".  In my opinion, the success and longevity of Northern Soul is as much to do with the "scene" as it is to do with the actual music. The demographics of it's followers is also a large contributing factor. Soul Power's points are also supported by the fact that there are very few black people (on either side of the pond), that take to our style of music. The more "tortured, testifying" sound of soul is what US fans (black and white), instantly recognise as "soul".  A great example of this is anomaly are The Funk Brothers.  In UK Northern circles they are revered as the greatest "Soul" band ever. In the US they are perceived as the biggest "Pop" band ever.  A subtle but nevertheless valid point.

At the end of the day, it's all just labelling eh?  Good thread though. 

Regards,

Dave

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

link

Some very valid points, Dave. Right on.

[pikeys dog]

Could I just interject at this point and say that James Brown is probably the most over-rated of all of the 'Soul Icons' bandied about by people who wouldn't know 'Real Soul Music' if it walked up and shoved their face in a bowl of Grits.

When are people gonna accept that he's a one trick pony, that is now ready for the knackers yard.

[Guest Soulpower]

Could I just interject at this point and say that James Brown is probably the most over-rated of all of the 'Soul Icons' bandied about by people who wouldn't know 'Real Soul Music' if it walked up and shoved their face in a bowl of Grits.

When are people gonna accept that he's a one trick pony, that is now ready for the knackers yard.

link

Thanks for this soulful and positive contribution!

[pikeys dog]

Thanks for this soulful and positive contribution! 

link

You're very welcome.

Any more second rate chancers you want me to disect?

[SteveM]

Could I just interject at this point and say that James Brown is probably the most over-rated of all of the 'Soul Icons' bandied about by people who wouldn't know 'Real Soul Music' if it walked up and shoved their face in a bowl of Grits.

When are people gonna accept that he's a one trick pony, that is now ready for the knackers yard.

link

But wonderful at marketing Joe. Take this thread for instance

[Guest Dan]

You're very welcome.

Any more second rate chancers you want me to disect?

link

[Chalky]

He was the creator of the most powerful soul dances.

Good for him! Michael Jackson is a pretty good mover too.

What about Jackie Wilson......just read his biography and the general feeling amonst many who contributed to the book feel he was the finest black showman/dancer there has ever been.

[Guest Dan]

What about Jackie Wilson......just read his biography and the general feeling amonst many who contributed to the book feel he was the finest black showman/dancer there has ever been.

link

brilliant mover

what about the tempts, too...not in the same league energy wise but so cool

almost worth a new thread

[Guest]

I've never bought into the James Brown "vibe", totally overated in my opinion, for me his greatest contribution was bringing all those other great acts through King records like Kay Robinson, Marva Whitney etc, this isn't a personal slight just a judgement based on listening to Mr Browns music......i'm afraid it just doesn't cut it for me.........But hell i'm used to Freddie Houston, George Freeman, Darrow Fletcher, Marvin Smith, John Edwards etc....what the F*** would i know.

Brett Franklin

[Guest Soulpower]

What about Jackie Wilson......just read his biography and the general feeling amonst many who contributed to the book feel he was the finest black showman/dancer there has ever been.

link

Definetely underrated!!

[BrianB]

I don't defend my point on this more than the other posters on this thread. And for the record, I try to keep it on topic while others make it a personal-dislike issue (JB the wife-beater, etc). And if you carefully read my posts, I don't "defend JB until I die", I rather defend his unquestionable musical legacy. But thanks for you contrubution. 

link

Thank you for your contribution. However, I think it is fair to say you missed my point on the forum. Half the replies are yours!

London, we are thinking of you.

[Guest Soulpower]

Thank you for your contribution. However, I think it is fair to say you missed my point on the forum. Half the replies are yours!

link

I wonder if that speaks for or against their true dedication to soul music ...

[Guest funky4u]

What ever JB does - I like.

It is obvious JB's music does not sound quite like the soull like Motown or stax or Marvin Gaye etc.

But if you study JB - what ever he does there is a great rooting in Gospel, Blues & jazz - the end product is different to what people regard as Soul music - but there is tonnes of Soul in what he does.

& JB gives emotionally as much as any Soul Artist on stage.

having met the man It dawned on me just how historic this man was - up there with Nelson Mandela, Malcolm X & Mmd Ali as an icon.

He gets alot of bad press - and alot that's hype.

one of the most down to earth ppl I've met. - watch this space for an exclusive interview with JB.

Edited July 8, 2005 by funky4u

[Guest Soulpower]

What ever JB does - I like.

It is obvious JB's music does not sound quite like the soull like Motown or stax or Marvin Gaye etc.

But if you study JB - what ever he does there is a great rooting in Gospel, Blues & jazz - the end product is different to what people regard as Soul music - but there is tonnes of Soul in what he does.

& JB gives emotionally as much as any Soul Artist on stage.

having met the man It dawned on me just how historic this man was - up there with Nelson Mandela, Malcolm X & Mmd Ali as an icon.

He gets alot of bad press - and alot that's hype.

one of the most down to earth ppl I've met. - watch this space for an exclusive interview with JB.

link

Having worked with JB for some years (and still working), I can't really agree with the "down-to-eartzh"-observation ... but as you rightly have pointed out, he's up there with Mandela, Malcolm, etc. As I wrote before, the 60s in America were all about Soul, and JB was the communicator, the icon, which is why he rightly deserved the name "Soulbrother No 1" and "Godfather of Soul" (although it sounds silly) ... but the fact that we seem the only ones left discussing this on this thread is a clear indication that the UK "Northerners" have created their own little soul world .. all power to them, but it really has nothing to do with where Soul music really was coming from ... I may not be popular here with this opinion, but I never liked popularity contests anyway ...

[Paulb]

Having worked with JB for some years (and still working), I can't really agree with the "down-to-eartzh"-observation ... but as you rightly have pointed out, he's up there with Mandela, Malcolm, etc. As I wrote before, the 60s in America were all about Soul, and JB was the communicator, the icon, which is why he rightly deserved the name "Soulbrother No 1" and "Godfather of Soul" (although it sounds silly) ... but the fact that we seem the only ones left discussing this on this thread is a clear indication that the UK "Northerners" have created their own little soul world .. all power to them, but it really has nothing to do with where Soul music really was coming from ... I may not be popular here with this opinion, but I never liked popularity contests anyway ... 

link

I agree, we don't like popularity contests in our "little soul world" that has kept many an American act in the limelight and earning some, if not much money over the years from royalties on records they had forgotten about.

Lets face it, the northern soul crowd, and I am proud to be a member since 1970, doesn't like James Brown's music in general, but yes we loved some of his King etc artistes and their recordings. Thanks to JB for that.

You may think IYO that "northern has nothing to do with where soul music was coming from"... if it had have been coming from JB alone Soul music would have died a death years ago. IMHO.

Thanks

Brian

Dave,

Love the web site. Heard from Kev recently?

[Paulb]

I agree, we don't like popularity contests in our "little soul world" that has kept many an American act in the limelight and earning some, if not much money over the years from royalties on records they had forgotten about.

Lets face it, the northern soul crowd, and I am proud to be a member since 1970, doesn't like James Brown's music in general, but yes we loved some of his King etc artistes and their recordings. Thanks to JB for that.

You may think IYO that "northern has nothing to do with where soul music was coming from"... if it had have been coming from JB alone Soul music would have died a death years ago. IMHO.

Thanks

Brian

Dave,

Love the web site. Heard from Kev recently?

link

Sorry, its not from Paulb its from BrianB, he didn't log off, I didn't log on. Sorry Paul.

[Guest Soulpower]

I agree, we don't like popularity contests in our "little soul world" that has kept many an American act in the limelight and earning some, if not much money over the years from royalties on records they had forgotten about.

Lets face it, the northern soul crowd, and I am proud to be a member since 1970, doesn't like James Brown's music in general, but yes we loved some of his King etc artistes and their recordings. Thanks to JB for that.

You may think IYO that "northern has nothing to do with where soul music was coming from"... if it had have been coming from JB alone Soul music would have died a death years ago. IMHO.

Thanks

Brian

Dave,

Love the web site. Heard from Kev recently?

link

Maybe in the UK. Certainly not in the US, where James Brown is a strong as ever. And the day he passes, he will be a musical icon as Elvis Presley. In spite of all his flaws, black people will never forget what JB has done for them. He will always mean something special for his people, because the soul he delivered to them wasn't only that of his voice, but that of his heart.

And apart from the soul scene, his legacy lives on in modern music as he is the most influential and sampled artist of black music. Soul music will never die .. because James Brown made it relevant ... to the world outside of the exclusive modern soul circuit.

[Guest Soulpower]

Love the web site. Heard from Kev recently?

link

Kev Williams? If you are talking about him .. bless you. Yes, he was here just a few months ago and we talk almost every day..

[Ric-tic]

sheltered? i dunno, i've been collecting soul music for over 20 years and i've got most of JBs output in my collection, though i very rarely listen to any of it these days (had a bit of a flirtation with 'rare groove' in the late 80s/early 90s). 90% of it is repetitive and fairly dull.

im not calling you a liar dan but i find it hard to believe you have MOST of james browns output in your collection then to say you dont listen to it these days even as a collector of 20 years that would take some doing as its a very LONG list you would have to be a real fan to go after all that and it would take some doing

SOUL POWER i think youve put your points over really well erm until you called the temptations a pop group

i really dont think the original question is really relevent as it was termed so long ago and stuck, and i think some people are replying as if it was termed today

yes i likes the james

BE COOL STAY IN SCHOOL

DONT DROP OUT

[Petebangor]

Musically his finest moment for me was Georgia On My Mind where he turns it into a magical example of deep soul at its most tortured, again not too relevant to Northern but if your tastes are wider its worth a listen.

Now onto the who invented funk question..... the UK media discuss!

Cheers

Jock

link

[alison]

I've seen JB live twice - left me cold I'm afraid. Don't mind a lot of his recordings but I am not keen on all that cabaret showboating he had adopted - and his voice ain't all that. Sorry - am I a heathen ?

Edited July 8, 2005 by alison

[Gary]

I have never been able to get on with James Brown. However, my oldest son who hates all my music likes only one artist from this genre-Mr James Brown. Typical :angry:

[Gary]

I've seen JB live twice - left me cold I'm afraid. Don't mind a lot of his recordings but I am not keen on all that cabaret showboating he had adopted - and his voice ain't all that. Sorry - am I a heathen ?

link

And no, you're not a heathen!

[Dave Moore]

[

Dave,

Love the web site. Heard from Kev recently?

link

[Guest Soulpower]

SOUL POWER i think youve put your points over really well erm until you called the temptations a pop group      

Soulful pop ... when you look at their 60s output. Motown in the 60s really was a pop label ... it was pop music back then, even though it was good. James Brown too was considered pop back in the days, but it had a raw edge to it. Remember, pop means nothing but "popular", and back in the days Motown was trying to soften up black music to break into the pop charts, while James Brown mainly had top-ten-hits in the R&B-charts.

[Guest Soulpower]

I've seen JB live twice - left me cold I'm afraid. Don't mind a lot of his recordings but I am not keen on all that cabaret showboating he had adopted - and his voice ain't all that. Sorry - am I a heathen ?

link

No .. lol ... but seeing the James Brown show these days is only a small reflection of the power it had back in the 60s and 70s. Yes, today it has many "cabaret"-elements .. what do you expect from a man in his mid-70s who ran out of ideas?

[BrianB]

[

Dave,

Love the web site. Heard from Kev recently?

link

Brian,

Check the site out again in a couple of weeks. Some good stuff going up, I Hope!

Spoke to Kev a couple of weeks ago. He's doing the Oz National with Bev. Was gonna go but business caught up with me. Off to Vegas in a couple of weeks to meet Fergie.

Regards,

Dave

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

link

[Guest Dan]

im not calling you a liar dan but i find it hard to believe you have MOST of james browns output in your collection

link

yeah you might have caught me out there

but i have got a lot of it, over 30 lps and a lot of singles

still, agree he did a fair bit i haven't got!

Having worked with JB for some years (and still working),

but the fact that we seem the only ones left discussing this on this thread is a clear indication that the UK "Northerners" have created their own little soul world .. all power to them, but it really has nothing to do with where Soul music really was coming from ... I may not be popular here with this opinion, but I never liked popularity contests anyway ... 

link

ha! i asked earlier if you were actually james brown or his agent...seems i wasn't too far from the truth. you work with the guy, hard to see you as detached and unbiased, isn't it?

as for the second part of this quote, i do think its about time northern soul fans stopped apologising for the odd crap pop record, dodgy tache and silly fashion trend from yesteryear and told it like it was.

yes, there are a few rightly-respected soul collectors and fans in the states and there are a growing number in western europe, japan and elsewhere.

but the northern scene is responsible for giving more soul artists, labels and records a hearing - and the credit they deserve - than anything in the world.

there are people over here who've been into soul for 40 years solid, for whom it's their life. they've spent fortunes tracking down artists, unearthing obscurities and re-releasing material. thanks to them, a lot of important soul artists are remembered, cherished and respected, people who otherwise wouldn't merit a column inch in the backside of the US media.

your love for JB reflects one thing only: your lack of knowledge of the rest of soul music.

who gives a f*** if he's still big in the states? that bunch of hotdog chewing halfwits (honourable exceptions excepted) have proved time and again that they don't know their fat arse from their plaid-covered elbow.

the UK is the home of american soul music now and it has been for years, mate.

you and your opinions are a joke.

stick your james brown up your arse (if he's not already up there).

[Stuart Bower]

Excuse me, but are we talkin` about the same guy? The James Brown I`m talkin` about (along with people like Jackie Wilson and a few others) helped to pioneer the sound we know and love. And unlike so many of our heroes and heroines this guy ain`t gonna die penniless and forgotten (which is,and will always be a shame)

Some people say he`s commercial,but what`s wrong with making money? After all- it`s what our heroes and heroines were striving for anyway!

HOW TO PERFORM THE ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE (Make money and become famous if you`re black in America in the 50`s and 60`s)

1. WRITE YOUR OWN SONGS

2. PERFORM YOUR OWN SONGS

3. BUY/FORM YOUR OWN RECORDING COMPANY

4. BUY/FORM YOUR OWN RADIO STATION-Play your stuff to the masses 24 hours a day!

Yes,the guy was certainly an innovator.

Now no wonder the guy seemed to be in trouble with the law..After all..a lot of people were saying "What`s a n*gg*r like that doin` with all that money? It shouldn`t be allowed!"

I`m not too struck on the stuff he was doing after 1975. But his stuff before 1975 IMO is quite awesome! The stuff he did on KING RECORDS.

Anyway,all this guy`s stuff is not to my taste. But he certainly warrants respect in my book.

[Guest Soulpower]

yeah you might have caught me out there

but i have got a lot of it, over 30 lps and a lot of singles

still, agree he did a fair bit i haven't got!

ha! i asked earlier if you were actually james brown or his agent...seems i wasn't too far from the truth. you work with the guy, hard to see you as detached and unbiased, isn't it?

So because I used to DJ his parties and tours, I am biased? James Brown has opened a lot of doors to me to work with other soul greats (just have a look at my website), but I am far from being biased. I never defend his personal manners, his excentric behaviour, his trouble with the law... so don't even go there. But I happened to have seen and heard his musical impact with my own eyes and ears, and I see how Black America is still thankful for what he has done for them and the soul movement.

as for the second part of this quote, i do think its about time northern soul fans stopped apologising for the odd crap pop record, dodgy tache and silly fashion trend from yesteryear and told it like it was.

yes, there are a few rightly-respected soul collectors and fans in the states and there are a growing number in western europe, japan and elsewhere.

but the northern scene is responsible for giving more soul artists, labels and records a hearing - and the credit they deserve - than anything in the world.

And the next thing you claim is that the Northerners are the true soul soldiers and the Nothern soul scene is where soul music was coming from? Wow, I did`n't know that Soul music was in actuality a British cultural export. But seriously, I give the Northern scene the respect it deserves .. but the soul world doesn't come from there. It`s still deeply rooted in its homeland, and James Brown still is its icon.

there are people over here who've been into soul for 40 years solid, for whom it's their life. they've spent fortunes tracking down artists, unearthing obscurities and re-releasing material. thanks to them, a lot of important soul artists are remembered, cherished and respected, people who otherwise wouldn't merit a column inch in the backside of the US media.

All you talk about is records, rarities, obscurities ... but honestly, Black America couldn't care less about all that. It's all about the feeling. I'm a collector too, so I see your point, but a song doesn't have to be rare and obscure to be good. It's about soul, a whole life style.

your love for JB reflects one thing only: your lack of knowledge of the rest of soul music.

who gives a f*** if he's still big in the states? that bunch of hotdog chewing halfwits (honourable exceptions excepted) have proved time and again that they don't know their fat arse from their plaid-covered elbow.

the UK is the home of american soul music now and it has been for years, mate.

you and your opinions are a joke.

stick your james brown up your arse (if he's not already up there).

link

At first I thought you were an intelligent guy to debate with ... but now you have outed yourself as an arrogant elitist. What a shame.

[Guest Soulpower]

Excuse me, but are we talkin` about the same guy? The James Brown I`m talkin` about (along with people like Jackie Wilson and a few others) helped to pioneer the sound we know and love. And unlike so many of our heroes and heroines this guy ain`t gonna die penniless and forgotten (which is,and will always be a shame)

Some people say he`s commercial,but what`s wrong with making money? After all- it`s what our heroes and heroines were striving for anyway!

HOW TO PERFORM THE ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE (Make money and become famous if you`re black in America in the 50`s and 60`s)

1. WRITE YOUR OWN SONGS

2. PERFORM YOUR OWN SONGS

3. BUY/FORM YOUR OWN RECORDING COMPANY

4. BUY/FORM YOUR OWN RADIO STATION-Play your stuff to the masses 24 hours a day!

Yes,the guy was certainly an innovator.

Now no wonder the guy seemed to be in trouble with the law..After all..a lot of people were saying "What`s a n*gg*r like that doin` with all that money? It shouldn`t be allowed!"

I`m not too struck on the stuff he was doing after 1975. But his stuff before 1975 IMO is quite awesome! The stuff he did on KING RECORDS.

Anyway,all this guy`s stuff is not to my taste. But he certainly warrants respect in my book.

link

Hey, that all doesn't matter, bro .. after all, American Soul music is British now and the standards are different there. The true soul icons have been substituted by some substandard one-hit wonders. As long as a 45 goes well on Ebay, it gotta be real soul ...

[pikeys dog]

Hey, that all doesn't matter, bro .. after all, American Soul music is British now and the standards are different there.  The true soul icons have been substituted by some substandard one-hit wonders. As long as a 45 goes well on Ebay, it gotta be real soul ...

link

Marvin Gaye.

The Temptations.

The Isley Brothers.

The Four Tops.

Gladys Knight & The Pips.

Sam Dees.

The Staples Singers.

Joe Tex.

Tyrone Davis.

Otis Clay.

With sub-standard one hit wonders like these who needs James Brown?

You Sir, are a Dick of the highest order.

[Guest Soulpower]

Marvin Gaye.

The Temptations.

The Isley Brothers.

The Four Tops.

Gladys Knight & The Pips.

Sam Dees.

The Staples Singers.

Joe Tex.

Tyrone Davis.

Otis Clay.

With sub-standard one hit wonders like these who needs James Brown?

You Sir, are a Dick of the highest order.

link

When did I mention these great artists above? You brought them up. Now take a chill pill and listen to some soul music. Might stop you from name-calling.

[simonb]

i have got a lot of it, over 30 lps and a lot of singles

stick your james brown up your arse (if he's not already up there).

link

You sound more of a collector than a Soul lover if you've got 30 LP's by somebody you dont rate. I dont agree with some of SOULPOWERs comments - but the UK's slant on Soul is very twisted(not in a negative way).

When he arranged the music on the One, he did Invent a style of Soul music that was to last until this day (be it influnced by JC Davies or not) - you might not like it (I dont much) but his legacy lives on in current R&B/Hip Hop.

To knock a man who's output clocks up 30+LP's is stupid - he'd made at least a dozen outstanding tracks. That knocks more or less any individual artist championed by the Northern scene for six.

Simon

[Guest funky4u]

Having worked with JB for some years (and still working), I can't really agree with the "down-to-eartzh"-observation ... but as you rightly have pointed out, he's up there with Mandela, Malcolm, etc. As I wrote before, the 60s in America were all about Soul, and JB was the communicator, the icon, which is why he rightly deserved the name "Soulbrother No 1" and "Godfather of Soul" (although it sounds silly) ... but the fact that we seem the only ones left discussing this on this thread is a clear indication that the UK "Northerners" have created their own little soul world .. all power to them, but it really has nothing to do with where Soul music really was coming from ... I may not be popular here with this opinion, but I never liked popularity contests anyway ... 

link

All this is subjective - that is how I found him - I was almost scared to meet him having heard all the stories - I found he was not like his reputation.

No doubt he has his bad days - as he is only human.

& to me he all ready is an icon - he does not need to die to be imortalysed.

Going far Beyond Black music genre's JB is THEE most sampled man in history.

Having influenced Elvis's 70's stage act & even a young Mick Jagger.

Alot of people don't feel his rythms as theyn are more complex than say 60's motown, what we in the UK call 'Northern' - or now what we have in House music - you have to listen to the riddim in this type of funk.

But if you like raww music of feeling like Nortthern Soul had - there should be something in his music for you.

And his dance moves were revolutionary in his own right too.

Stone 2 the bone.

[Guest Dan]

You sound more of a collector than a Soul lover if you've got 30 LP's by somebody you dont rate. I dont agree with some of SOULPOWERs comments - but the UK's slant on Soul is very twisted(not in a  negative way).

When he arranged the music on the One, he did Invent a style of Soul music that was to last until this day (be it influnced by JC Davies or not) - you might not like it (I dont much) but his legacy lives on in current R&B/Hip Hop.

To knock a man who's output clocks up 30+LP's is stupid - he'd made at least a dozen outstanding tracks. That knocks more or less any individual artist championed by the Northern scene for six.

Simon

link

not even going to reply to soulpower, we'll never agree.

to respond to you, simon. i'm both a collector and a soul lover, much like most other people on here i guess

i bought most of these in the late 80s and early 90s (at least 20 of them in a collection i bought; i didn't buy it for them, they came with the other stuff).

but irrespective of that, tastes change.

i used to think the jam were the only thing that mattered in the world pretty much but that changed.

i used to like jb a bit more than i do now but that changed too

i can't see that that's too hard to understand, simon?

you say:

To knock a man who's output clocks up 30+LP's is stupid - he'd made at least a dozen outstanding tracks. That knocks more or less any individual artist championed by the Northern scene for six.

he's made hundreds of tracks (as has already been pointed out, even 30 lps only scratches the surface really) and if you only think a dozen of them are outstanding that leaves a lot of mediocrity. you're making the argument for me!

Edited July 10, 2005 by Dan

[Guest Soulpower]

not even going to reply to soulpower, we'll never agree.

We can always agree to disagree as long as you keep it on topic, but your personal insults and flame-baiting make it seem like that you have no real factual ammunition, so you take it to a personal level.

he's made hundreds of tracks (as has already been pointed out, even 30 lps only scratches the surface really) and if you only think a dozen of them are outstanding that leaves a lot of mediocrity. you're making the argument for me!

link

No really making an argument at all, sense Simon was obviously throwing around any number like you threw around with insulting phrases and remarks that didn't make any sense either. You have proven to be a moron for whom it's difficult to stay on topic due to a lack of understanding of soul music .. case closed. I hope one day you'll learn to appreciate soul music outside of your collector's narrowmindedness. I'm not trying to "make you like" James Brown .. but your personal dislike for his music shouldn't be in the way of a healthy judgement of his legacy.. well, it shouldn't ...