Just a query really?

When talking about a soul record what denotes its rarity?

I'm just asking as there seems to be quite a few 'supposedly' rare records that come up for sale on here regularly from various sellers...now these records are usually priced £1000+...for that sort of money (If I was buying) I'd want it to be pretty damn rare...yet the frequency on which they turn up seems to tell a different story?

What's the deal? Are certain individuals telling us what is rare and what isn't for their own gain?

Is it a case of records just being in demand for long periods of time and are semi hard to get hold of?

I've got quite a few genuinely rare bits from the doo wop/R&B genre that I picked up for peanuts...records that you would be lucky to stumble across ever...yet the supposedly rare soul records that fetch thousands are popping up on a regular basis

I just don't get it?

Nothing in the trophy room for 30odd years sorry Beeks could'nt resist.

ATB Steve

Aha Mr Beeks

Rarity is about - well err rarity! Doesn't have to be a thousand pound record. Lots and lots of records are "rarities" but aren't expensive.

A bit of a poor response - but I'm rusty - and busy at work!

Asked this question before on here.Is it 200 - 100 - 50 - or 2?. Answer 2.Or if you're very lucky,,1.

Its the old chestnut Beeks,rarity sometimes means a record rarely comes up for sale.

How about some examples Beeks ? Just for the thread like ...

How about some examples Beeks ? Just for the thread like ...

Yah Beeks - where are your samples - examples even?

How about some examples Beeks ? Just for the thread like ...

Ok classic example...and no offence intended to the guy that's selling one right now

George Lemons - Fascinating Girl

Seen a few of these go on here since I first came on SS...yet it apparently commands anything between 1k/2k

Surely if it was that rare it wouldn't come up so often?!

rarity sometimes means a record rarely comes up for sale.

Exactly my point...surely if a record pops up every couple of months it CANNOT be classed as rare and therefore how can you justify the huge price tag?

By the very meaning of 'rare' it should rarely be seen

It's a big game Beeks old son or rather a game of chance as any record can turn up, the whole collecting world of rare soul has been opened up in recent years with Ebay, internet etc. I agree certain records seem to constantly be up for sale but demand often drives the prices up over actual rarity, glad I'm out of the DJ loop now just buy what I like for me rather than the dance floor and price, value etc. does not come into it, seems like some tunes are like the number 36a bus you never see one for ages then three turn up at once, still tons of stuff is just sitting there and simply not selling (see my record mountain threads recently)plenty of good tunes for everyone to go at so it's not all doom and gloom.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Ok classic example...and no offence intended to the guy that's selling one right now

George Lemons - Fascinating Girl

Seen a few of these go on here since I first came on SS...yet it apparently commands anything between 1k/2k

Surely if it was that rare it wouldn't come up so often?!

Here's a couple of Rarities, considering how easy a Stock Copy would be.

Yet, the price possibly wouldn't reflect rarity in either case,

I bought these in the last couple of years for a quite small amount, after years of searching.

Rarity in isolation doesn't mean much, it needs to be coupled with demand.

If demand outweighs availability then the prices will rise...

IMO of course

Don't get hung up on the issue of "rarity", the Northern Soul record "market" can be summed up in 2 words - Supply & Demand.

Des Parker

As Stevie said, rarity in itself means nothing. I have a few one offs that are pretty worthless, since no one has heard them! However, other items such as Bobby Reed, Terry Callier aren't particulary rare in terms of numbers pressed, but because they are so sought after they command high prices. So when people talk about rare records, they often mean "sought after" rather than the true meaning of rare (ie. scarce).

Don't get hung up on the issue of "rarity", the Northern Soul record "market" can be summed up in 2 words - Supply & Demand.

Des Parker

You beat me to it , that's the two words I would use.

Surely the following equation answers your question Mr Beeks...

Value of record = (Rarity x Demand) divided by Supply available.

Unless it gets auctioned on Mannys site then you need to multiply by the 'Chaos Factor' (an unknown random quantity that renders the above equation completely useless)

Surely if it was that rare it wouldn't come up so often?!

Thats a fair point Beeks.

If there are numerous copies, which are clearly out there due to the regularity of sales for any said 'rare' record, by its very nature it isnt rare.

It's a bit like when footy commentators use the word 'brave' when a goalkeeper claims the ball at a corner when 8 players are steaming in!

Is he brave?? Is he b*llocks. Someone who risks their life to save others, thats brave.

Point being rarity for me is an overused term and often missused in confusion with in demand or expensive records.

Personally, i think rarity is as already mentioned all about the number of known copies of a record.

There is definitely an arguement to suggest that records can go from being rare to not rare..............When a truck load turn up, thus making more known copies.

As Stevie said, rarity in itself means nothing. I have a few one offs that are pretty worthless, since no one has heard them!

That's the thing though...as a Collector/DJ would you not RATHER it to be this way?

I get a far bigger buzz out of playing something most people don't know/might find hard to get regardless of whether it might have cost me $20 than a floorfiller that cost me 20 times more...isn't everyone of the same mind?!

For a scene so hung up on 'Cover Ups' and 'New Finds' it all seems a little topsy turvy to me

"Steak and Chips sets " seems to be an in saying now

Edited November 2, 200915 yr by Simon M

Here's a couple of Rarities, considering how easy a Stock Copy would be.

Yet, the price possibly wouldn't reflect rarity in either case,

I bought these in the last couple of years for a quite small amount, after years of searching.

Got a blue vinyl rescue me for a fiver the other day.

That's the thing though...as a Collector/DJ would you not RATHER it to be this way?

I get a far bigger buzz out of playing something most people don't know/might find hard to get regardless of whether it might have cost me $20 than a floorfiller that cost me 20 times more...isn't everyone of the same mind?!

For a scene so hung up on 'Cover Ups' and 'New Finds' it all seems a little topsy turvy to me

Yes but are you a Collector/DJ or a DJ/Collector? lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Yes but are you a Collector/DJ or a DJ/Collector? lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

The difference is a matter of whether you'll accept a VG+

I have a few one offs that are pretty worthless, since no one has heard them!

Could always try lending them to Butch.........

Edited November 2, 200915 yr by Stevie

Seems to me people seemed obsessed with price. If people are buying a record for an amount they are happy to pay but constantly worry or moan wether the price goes up or down then collecting soul (especially Northern) is not for them. Prices on the scene have been like this since day one and are not suddenly gonna change now..Collecting is not for the faint hearted..

Could always try lending them to Butch.........

How very true.

Why do people think the price of a record increases just because Butch plays it?

Look out for the Limitations on Bacone. Butch played it on Saturday so it is bound to be his latest biggie

Seems to me people seemed obsessed with price. If people are buying a record for an amount they are happy to pay but constantly worry or moan wether the price goes up or down then collecting soul (especially Northern) is not for them. Prices on the scene have been like this since day one and are not suddenly gonna change now..Collecting is not for the faint hearted..

Sorry Oh Yee of unlimited funds

You completely missed the point too...wasn't worrying or moaning...very few on my wants list are beyond my budget to be fair...but being the considerate soul I am... i'm just thinking of the guy spending thousands on records that every fucker seems to have or is selling

But hey...if you enjoy playing your same 20 records whilst remortgaging your house to do so

Who am I to stand in your way

How very true.

Why do people think the price of a record increases just because Butch plays it?

Look out for the Limitations on Bacone. Butch played it on Saturday so it is bound to be his latest biggie

A lot of people don't have confidence in their own taste...it needs the 'seal of approval'

A lot of people don't have confidence in their own taste...it needs the 'seal of approval'

You are right on the money.

I don't need Butch to play a record for me to know it is good.

Rarity has nothing to do with price. A high price tag usually stems from desirability and has nothing to do with rarity or even quality in a lot of cases.

Don't you just love northern soul

How very true.

Why do people think the price of a record increases just because Butch plays it?

Look out for the Limitations on Bacone. Butch played it on Saturday so it is bound to be his latest biggie

surely the question should be -- should the price of a record go up just because Butch plays it ?

surely the question should be -- should the price of a record go up just because Butch plays it ?

Must admit , I mentioned Butch on a recent sales thread . The emails and pms went crazy

surely the question should be -- should the price of a record go up just because Butch plays it ?

If demand increases as a result then the rules of the marketplace apply....think we've just gone full circle

Could always try lending them to Butch.........

AHHHHHHHHHH! Many a true word spoken in jest..........

RARITY...availability. Number of/by equation.

there are many reasons why. yet simply supply and demand.

Edited November 2, 200915 yr by posstot

Russ

It's easy mate just apply this formula

Price = (D * G * DJ * M * R + W) * S / A + RC + PL +RBS

Where

D = Demand

G = Gullibility of Buyer

DJ = DJ Factor ( who is playing it out )

M = Myth Factor ( everyone says there are only x copies of this, crafted by a wiseman from molten steel then covered with the ground bodies of beetles for protection !)

R = Real rarity

W = Who's selling it

S = State your head is in when you buy it ( we all know how good things sound at niters to be shite on a monday)

A = Availabilty

RC = Record Condition

PL = Personal Limit

RBS = Rare But Shite factor

How does a record become a "rarity"

That was the question and the answer is quite simply when it is rare, how it becomes rare is as follows, when a run is stopped at the record company or a deletion of a record. When only a few are made or when only a few survive.

There have been many catalogued stories of dumpsters being dives looking for the discarded and unwanted, there have also been case of ware houses and stock rooms giving up their treasures.

In a nut shell a "rarity" is a record that is in short supply.

Now pricing these little disks is easy, some thing is worth as much as some one is willing to pay for it full stop.

The buyer sets the price, yup you can have a box full of expensively labeled disks but the proof of the pudding is in the selling.

Prices can rocket when there is a story attached or when there is a perceived connection to a potent ideal but it has to capture some ones imagination.

I know of some one paying well over the odds for a record collection because he once owned it back in the day, it meant little to nothing to any one else but to him it was a tangible link to a former life.

Russ

It's easy mate just apply this formula

Price = (D * G * DJ * M * R + W) * S / A + RC + PL +RBS

Where

D = Demand

G = Gullibility of Buyer

DJ = DJ Factor ( who is playing it out )

M = Myth Factor ( everyone says there are only x copies of this, crafted by a wiseman from molten steel then covered with the ground bodies of beetles for protection !)

R = Real rarity

W = Who's selling it

S = State your head is in when you buy it ( we all know how good things sound at niters to be shite on a monday)

A = Availabilty

RC = Record Condition

PL = Personal Limit

RBS = Rare But Shite factor

P M S L . ditto

surely the question should be -- should the price of a record go up just because Butch plays it ?

Of course it shouldn't.

But to the majority it is a most definite yes.

If we are really hung up on 'rarity' then we are specifically talking about those records that were released/produced in the most limited of numbers. Now we all know with this definition that the price does not necessarily reflect rarity. There are many records that are in demand/popular that are far from rare given the narrow and specific definition. The key should always be to buy what appeals to you.

If we really want to know the records that are truly rare then we need a system of identifying the number of any particular record produced/issued. There is a project to do this for garage 45's which can be checked out at https://www.finerecordingstudio.com/g45/ and it's something that guys over on Fryers forum have been discussing. The problem for this approach for soul and funk records are the sheer number of records produced/issued in these genres and who/how the data could be compiled.

There will always be gaps in our knowledge, there will always be 'new' discoveries and finds of records previously thought 'rare'. IMHO the beast approach is not to get hung up on following the crowd and worring about rarity and price, I'd rather go out and find the records that appeal in the vast sea of quality tunes out there.

Regards..

Sorry Oh Yee of unlimited funds

You completely missed the point too...wasn't worrying or moaning...very few on my wants list are beyond my budget to be fair...but being the considerate soul I am... i'm just thinking of the guy spending thousands on records that every fucker seems to have or is selling

But hey...if you enjoy playing your same 20 records whilst remortgaging your house to do so

Who am I to stand in your way

It was a general statement and not directed at anyone in particular. if it was i would have said so calm yaself..ya come, ya go..

Sorry Oh Yee of unlimited funds

You completely missed the point too...wasn't worrying or moaning...very few on my wants list are beyond my budget to be fair...but being the considerate soul I am... i'm just thinking of the guy spending thousands on records that every fucker seems to have or is selling

But hey...if you enjoy playing your same 20 records whilst remortgaging your house to do so

Who am I to stand in your way

does that mean he has to play a few records twice to fulfill an hours Dj commitment or does he just cut his set short cause he run out after twenty

Ok classic example...and no offence intended to the guy that's selling one right now

George Lemons - Fascinating Girl

Seen a few of these go on here since I first came on SS...yet it apparently commands anything between 1k/2k

Surely if it was that rare it wouldn't come up so often?!

No offence taken.

I bought this through Soul Source only a couple of months ago (so that might explain 2 of the copies...it's the same copy twice).

My inability to either say "No, I've spent too much already" or accept that my salary does not match my collecting aspirations has resulted in the reluctant sale of this record.

Chris

the real rare ones are the ones people don't talk about unless they have a copy.

you've been around a while now on the soul scene beeks your just starting to see how common a lot of the so called rare records are.

demand plays a huge part in record pricing.

How very true.

Why do people think the price of a record increases just because Butch plays it?

Look out for the Limitations on Bacone. Butch played it on Saturday so it is bound to be his latest biggie

Not just the Limitations Joanie.He played another that was a 40 quid sound.Now its either buried in collections,or it'll be hiked up.

Watch this space.

Edited November 2, 200915 yr by JR Hartley

Ah the old Chestnut - Rarity

Rarity can only be qualified by Provenance otherwise you can just think of a number in your head and that will do!

Provenance- Is where their is empirical evidence (usually in written form) to back up a spoken statement.

I love it when someone comes on here and says only 5 copies known ! - To who are they known - maybe their is 5000 copies because the person saying only 5 copies known has only come across information they retain and apply.

Whereas a piece of paper from the record company saying we have withdrawn the release and all copies except 2 have been destroyed is evidence of rarity! We dont need to see the 2 copies left we assume the letter is of genuine intent and a we all apply the same conclusion. Thats a rarity in itself!

Edited November 3, 200915 yr by Ernie Andrews

Of course it shouldn't.

But to the majority it is a most definite yes.

The majority being these then lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Just a query really?

When talking about a soul record what denotes its rarity?

I'm just asking as there seems to be quite a few 'supposedly' rare records that come up for sale on here regularly from various sellers...now these records are usually priced £1000+...for that sort of money (If I was buying) I'd want it to be pretty damn rare...yet the frequency on which they turn up seems to tell a different story?

What's the deal? Are certain individuals telling us what is rare and what isn't for their own gain?

Is it a case of records just being in demand for long periods of time and are semi hard to get hold of?

I've got quite a few genuinely rare bits from the doo wop/R&B genre that I picked up for peanuts...records that you would be lucky to stumble across ever...yet the supposedly rare soul records that fetch thousands are popping up on a regular basis

I just don't get it?

i agree with you but one mitigating factor is that a record that has been publicly dubbed as rare or valuable will be put up for sale more frequently than an invaluable record. so it might truly be very rare but the few copies out there will come up for sale because people will see they are selling for a lot and put them up for sale or the copies that are in people's collections will move around to make room for other things.

i agree in general most records aren't as rare as people say they are and there are some records that are truly rare and don't come up for sale... even those records all of a sudden seem to come up for sale in batches though.

That's the thing though...as a Collector/DJ would you not RATHER it to be this way?

I get a far bigger buzz out of playing something most people don't know/might find hard to get regardless of whether it might have cost me $20 than a floorfiller that cost me 20 times more...isn't everyone of the same mind?!

For a scene so hung up on 'Cover Ups' and 'New Finds' it all seems a little topsy turvy to me

Some of those 20$ records sound a a bit better than some of those 2,000$ records anyways.

rare and indemand Northern will always fetch big money, however indemand rercords that are not that rare do fetch incredible ammounts of cash eg. the wooden nickeles, Johnny Howard. wade flemmons (Jannette)

I've had a few rare records over the years such as the Moments, the groovettes, Jesse Favis on ERA (THREE TIMES) however I also have Johnny Ross on Chirrup and RPM Genertaion on a black issue, probably wouldn't get more than £35 each for them but ask yourselfs when was the last time these two came up for sale???

boody wiered ent it?

A lot of people don't have confidence in their own taste...it needs the 'seal of approval'

Many a true word said in yer vest.

Just a query really?

What's the deal? Are certain individuals telling us what is rare and what isn't for their own gain?

Sorry, but that sounds exteremely naive to me. You're not giving collectors any credit in their own ability to determine rarity and value ('cos they are usually very different) through experience. I doubt that many collectors on here rely entirely upon statements made by dealers on rarity. If you know, you know. If you don't then find out, and confirm before you commit $$'s.

Sorry, but that sounds exteremely naive to me.

If you're going to call me extremely naive at least learn how to fucking spell it properly

Don't get hung up on the issue of "rarity", the Northern Soul record "market" can be summed up in 2 words - Supply & Demand.

Des Parker

sure is, like any other commodity

If you're going to call me extremely naive at least learn how to fucking spell it properly

That is not called for.