After seeing the comments on the JM auction thread I thought that the rarity of the Velours issue had proved itself after so few turning up in so many years. 

 

Lets not forget that its more or less every month that a mint Shrine record hits the market.

 

Back in the day records like the Tomangos, Cashmeres and even Mel Britt were common.

Rob Smith and Chris king had box counties of Mel Britt offloading it at £5 a go. 

 

JM Millionaires book states that there are around 25 known copies world wide of the Devotions - Do do de dop, when that book was printed I knew of 4 copies in Nottingham and even 2 on my street. How are these numbers worked out and how accurate are they

 

When Gwen Owen came to the UK first time she brought with her 4 copies of Wanted and Needed. Two had identical run out track info and two were totally individual, this stating that there were at least 3 pressing machines up and running, we know it takes about 10 seconds to turn a vinyl donut into a pressed record so just how many were made. Yes I know 95% could of been used as ballast on a ship to Hong Kong and yes i do except that it is extremely rear. Just makes me wonder how many there was to start with.

 

When the soul collection pensions cash in I think the true quantity of records mat be realized and the real rare records will be even more valuable 

 

Any thoughts 

 

Yes good question. I would like to know the definitive count of Billy Woods on Sussex. I have one and I had one in the 80,s which I sold. Interesting thread maybe. Bearing in mind I assume something like George Lemons ( YUK) was most likely a vanity press maybe. Not sure I can recall another on the label and who in there right mind would consider it acceptable for public release? I know there are loads of very knowledgeable folks on here. But a tiny label from anywhere would likely press a minimum amount ( 300?) to try to attract the public and the DJs at the time. Also things like The Nomads on Mo Groove were supposed to have been given/sold at the gigs involving the beach scene. Maybe that's why some are SO rare?

MAYBE! 

Yes good question. I would like to know the definitive count of Billy Woods on Sussex. I have one and I had one in the 80,s which I sold. Interesting thread maybe. Bearing in mind I assume something like George Lemons ( YUK) was most likely a vanity press maybe. Not sure I can recall another on the label and who in there right mind would consider it acceptable for public release? I know there are loads of very knowledgeable folks on here. But a tiny label from anywhere would likely press a minimum amount ( 300?) to try to attract the public and the DJs at the time. Also things like The Nomads on Mo Groove were supposed to have been given/sold at the gigs involving the beach scene. Maybe that's why some are SO rare?

MAYBE! 

I had a chat with John Anderson about the Billy Woods. The story goes - The PR man from Sussex records visited him with a large box of Billy Woods, Sussex had just gone bust and the PR man wanted to get rid quick. There was no record player available so john took a punt for 20 or 50 (I forget which figure but it was one of them) at $1 each. What happened to the remainder is unknown but John said that as the rep was now off the payroll they probably went into the nearest skip  

After seeing the comments on the JM auction thread I thought that the rarity of the Velours issue had proved itself after so few turning up in so many years. 

 

Lets not forget that its more or less every month that a mint Shrine record hits the market.

 

Back in the day records like the Tomangos, Cashmeres and even Mel Britt were common.

Rob Smith and Chris king had box counties of Mel Britt offloading it at £5 a go. 

 

JM Millionaires book states that there are around 25 known copies world wide of the Devotions - Do do de dop, when that book was printed I knew of 4 copies in Nottingham and even 2 on my street. How are these numbers worked out and how accurate are they

 

When Gwen Owen came to the UK first time she brought with her 4 copies of Wanted and Needed. Two had identical run out track info and two were totally individual, this stating that there were at least 3 pressing machines up and running, we know it takes about 10 seconds to turn a vinyl donut into a pressed record so just how many were made. Yes I know 95% could of been used as ballast on a ship to Hong Kong and yes i do except that it is extremely rear. Just makes me wonder how many there was to start with.

 

When the soul collection pensions cash in I think the true quantity of records mat be realized and the real rare records will be even more valuable 

 

Any thoughts 

 

I disagree. I've never known either Mel Britt or the Tomangoes to be 'common'. I be surprised if Rob and Chris had boxes of Mel Britt originals. I never thought it was around in that kind of quantity.......

 

Ian D 

I disagree. I've never known either Mel Britt or the Tomangoes to be 'common'. I be surprised if Rob and Chris had boxes of Mel Britt originals. I never thought it was around in that kind of quantity.......

 

Ian D 

Ian, Rich B who is on SS and may verify -  He negotiated Rob Smith down to £2.50

Mick Good post but this will just go around in circles many are aware of the so called rare 45s but it does seem like every other record on main dealer lists but like you say more titles have come into play with the unforeseen prices and the long term soul fan collector getting older like us all calling it a day with the unaffordable prices for many that has taken the enjoyment from collecting - always enjoy the posts when boxes of 20-50 found long may it continue and sure it will many have said for as long as I can remember it cant carry on but it seems like each year more of that so called rarer track come to light but the prices keep increasing long may it continue northern soul 45,s its like a drug just chasing that next fix (record) to sit in the box

happy days!!!!!!!!!!

Ian, Rich B who is on SS and may verify -  He negotiated Rob Smith down to £2.50

Hi I brought a Mel B from Rob's shop in  the early eighties for £8. The marker he used to price it went thru the paper cover and you can see it on the record. It is original. I still have it. ATB kimbo

Ian, Rich B who is on SS and may verify -  He negotiated Rob Smith down to £2.50

 

Well, I wasn't really around that much in the early 80's but still it's a shocker to me. I always had Mel Britt down as being a rarie......

 

Ian D 

dont forget there are loads of much cheaper records that are equally if not far rarer

 

when ive wanted a so called rare record thats quite exspensive,i must say i rarely struggle to get it,and usually get it within a short period of time,but then there has been records i expect to pay maybe 50 quid for and just cant mange to get one...weird!

 

but i would like to see some kind of up to date publication of rarities,not so much the value,just the quantitie?

......We'll never know......

 

."Hello Mr Record Dealer, I have a Mel Britt for sale"......."It ain't that rare mate, there was loads kicking about at one time".........OR........"Hello Mr Record Dealer, I'd like to buy your Mel Britt please".........."That's a very hard one mate, not seen one for years, probably only 20 or so in existence"

 

 

 

Len  

Edited July 4, 201410 yr by LEN

......We'll never know......

 

."Hello Mr Record Dealer, I have a Mel Britt for sale"......."It ain't that rare mate, there was loads kicking about at one time".........OR........"Hello Mr Record Dealer, I'd like to buy your Mel Britt please".........."That's a very hard one mate, not seen one for years, probably only 20 or so in existence"

 

 

 

Len  

Spot on Len - Been there two many times

 

Just to add insult to injury

Rumors, fables and stories around the turn tables.

Were that Chris King turned up to a Notts Pally alldayer with that many Mel Brits he used a small trailer. 

"‹All original found on a trip to the States 

"‹I can not verify this and don't want to start a Mel Britt argument

Its obviously supply and demand that justifies the prices (but) if there are lots safely tucked away in 

collections then cometh the day - Who knows 

Ian, Rich B who is on SS and may verify -  He negotiated Rob Smith down to £2.50

 

That is a true story (how Mick remembers all this stuff I'll never know!) and he had multiple copies at the time - hence the "I'm not paying a fiver, you've got loads!" attitude.  For the record it was as mint as you could get and a promotion copy.

 

I also did get a mint Tomangoes from Rob, that had been sold to him by Shaun Turner from his collection though.

Chris told me last year he had that many Mel Britts he didn't know what to do with them but did struggle to find records that only command small prices still these days, quality & demand eh !!

In ten years time I expect loads of hard to obtain vinyl to come to market, the NS population will shrink as some fall from the perch, therefore, prized record collections get sold but there are less buyers. The consequence the price falls (market rule of supply and demand). Some traders may attempt to buy em up to support an artificially high prices.

However; the second consequence also affects prices - more of the NS population will be retired and the loss of well paid jobs will be replaced by modest pensions, hence the money for expensive vinyl wont be available. Some collectors may sell their precious vinyl to subsidise their modest pensions.

I appreciate some young soulies have come onto the scene but they will be outnumbered by those retiring or falling off the perch. If those record dealers with a vested interest in high prices wanting to protect their position will need to recruit a lot more young un's into the scene otherwise their precious assets will lose most of their value. 

If you go to a venue this weekend and look at the age of the attendees and think ahead 10 years; you might decide this analysis has merit.   

In ten years time I expect loads of hard to obtain vinyl to come to market, the NS population will shrink as some fall from the perch, therefore, prized record collections get sold but there are less buyers. The consequence the price falls (market rule of supply and demand). Some traders may attempt to buy em up to support an artificially high prices.

However; the second consequence also affects prices - more of the NS population will be retired and the loss of well paid jobs will be replaced by modest pensions, hence the money for expensive vinyl wont be available. Some collectors may sell their precious vinyl to subsidise their modest pensions.

I appreciate some young soulies have come onto the scene but they will be outnumbered by those retiring or falling off the perch. If those record dealers with a vested interest in high prices wanting to protect their position will need to recruit a lot more young un's into the scene otherwise their precious assets will lose most of their value. 

If you go to a venue this weekend and look at the age of the attendees and think ahead 10 years; you might decide this analysis has merit.   

Lets not forget that the foreign market is getting bigger every day, especially Japan. Im told that the majority of the big stuff that hits the market is send abroad

Hopefully enough to keep our beloved dealers in business  

I think what a lot of you Brits fail to realise is that a lot of Americans (and even Canadians) were buying this Soul music (yes, even the cutouts and uncharted unbacked releases, and small garage studio releases).  I've heard many of you say that NOBODY wanted them back then,  But that just isn't true. MANY people I knew had collecting taste the same as I, and they searched the Ghetto record shops, thrift stores, junk stores, book stores, furniture stores, Black families homes, contacted ex producers, etc.  Not all of these collectors are known.  Many of them kept their whole collections, but dropped ut of active collecting before The Internet came in.  I know a lot of people my age who still won't deal with learning how to use computers and The Internet.  Their record collections will continue to surface as they die or their houses are sold and they move to "Old Folks' care homes" or they die. 

 

I knew a LOT of collectors back in the '60s and '70s who were buying such records.  More and more will be surfacing now that we are starting to get old and many of us are passing away.  Now, it is different, because we have The Internet and e-bay.  No one's great R & B/Soul collection will be tossed away by an ignorant group of children of a major collector.  So, a lot of records that you've only known a handful of copies in Britain, will be seeing several more coming to auction every year or every few years.

But how many will just get thrown away by next of kin, or house clearances by people who will think they are junk? To most people old records by artists they have never heard of are just junk.

Well, I wasn't really around that much in the early 80's but still it's a shocker to me. I always had Mel Britt down as being a rarie......

 

Ian D 

Remember Mel Britt was on a soul bowl list (79/80) for 6 quid so imagine Mr Anderson had a good few.

 

 

 

 

Didn"t get one as I was into ""newies" at the time..............

 

Cheers Paul

Well, I wasn't really around that much in the early 80's but still it's a shocker to me. I always had Mel Britt down as being a rarie......

 

Ian D 

I bought a Mel Britt original for £8 out of Black Echoes in the 80's , think it was from Neil Rushton ...

But how many will just get thrown away by next of kin, or house clearances by people who will think they are junk? To most people old records by artists they have never heard of are just junk.

Yes.  That did happen a lot before knowledge of The Internet became commonplace and before e-Bay became a household word.  Nowadays, almost everyone in USA thinks one can get rich by auctioning off old junk on e-Bay.  I'd venture to guess that MOST of the bigger collections of even the hermit record collectors who swore to "Never let those grabby Brits get a hold of my beloved Soul records" will have their kin placing them on e-bay auctions, to see what they can get.

Remember Mel Britt was on a soul bowl list (79/80) for 6 quid so imagine Mr Anderson had a good few.

Didn"t get one as I was into ""newies" at the time..............

Cheers Paul

OK, I stand corrected. Didn't realise we got flooded with 'em. Sounds like there's a few hundred of 'em knocking around. Amazing.....

Ian D

Also - Dose a rare record make us go stupid.. Little auction story

 

When Rich B announced he was selling up his 60s northern he had a few items he felt were not worthy to go in the sale and gave them to me (foc god bless his cotton socks) There was a bootleg of Bernie Williams with scanned labels on (still got it). Rich had a real one that was cracked with selotape on the b side so he played the boot with labels scanned from his original including scanned selotape.. Shortly after a friend of mine was DJing in the states and wanted to take a box of boot look a likes for safety reasons. As I had a good collection of boots as well as ov he borrowed about 20 of me. I got them back a week later no problem.

2 weeks later on ebay there's a Bernie Williams for sale from the same area my mate went to. This record also had selotape on but not cracked so I compared the picture to my boot and its the same record, faded label in same areas selotape the exact same position though im sure they would of put real selotape on top. 

The guy winning it at the time had sold me a couple of records in the past so I thought I would warn him. He ignored my warning , carried on bidding and won it. I never heard from him again. Two questions - 1-did he think i was interested and just trying to put him off, - 2 - Was my boot used to make a counterfeit from.

I actually think there are rareities still in the UK with folk who went to WC for example or else where, had a small box of records, dropped off the scene, never to be seen again, they'll be loads of small collections in lofts, sheds n garages all over the UK.  We assume that every person who ever went to a Nighter is well aware of the current scene & is romping around Stoke/Blackpool in an over sized pair of Spencers, that just isnt true. 

 

I would also suggest there are loads of folk who have never been to a NS do in thier life have these discs amongst other records they collect, Motown collectors for example, may have loads of related discs they have picked up along the way & hauded.

 

A friend of mine some years ago, who doesnt collect, but has been on the scene for years, phoned me to tell me that on the notice board at his place of work someone had put up a small note with a collection of soul records for sale, I contacted the guy, we met in a car park in Newbury, I bought the lot, about 500 records for £250, most of which were 7ts pressings & UK re issues, I took out what I wanted, including a Salvadors & a small clutch of other originals & sold the rest on to a dealer the same night for the same price, £250. 

 

I also found a small clutch of records including several raeities in the loft of an old Mod in Portsmouth.  And again, I know a guy who used to travel all over the south topping up Juke boxes, he has some British rareities & some other stuff, dont think he has been to a soul do in over 20 years or more.  They'll be loads of stuff like that knocking around all over the UK.

 

However, I dont see the arse dropping out of the collecting scene any time soon or even in 10 years, its a truly international thing now & together with a younger generation of collectors in the UK & the 10 yearly Mod revivals they'll be rareities selling for top wonga for many years to come.....

 

Best Russ

Remember Mel Britt was on a soul bowl list (79/80) for 6 quid so imagine Mr Anderson had a good few.

 

 

 

 

Didn"t get one as I was into ""newies" at the time..............

 

Cheers Paul

 

There were certainly copies of Mel Britt available relatively cheaply in the early 80s as I was offered two in quick succession for around £5. Like you I wasn't interested as I regarded it as 'too funky' for my tastes then. I also turned down a Larry Clinton for £120 (too expensive) in the mid 80s and a Gary Sole around the same time for £10 as I needed the money for my holiday. Needless to say, I am now bald from tearing my hair out in despair for the last 30 years.

I had a chat with John Anderson about the Billy Woods. The story goes - The PR man from Sussex records visited him with a large box of Billy Woods, Sussex had just gone bust and the PR man wanted to get rid quick. There was no record player available so john took a punt for 20 or 50 (I forget which figure but it was one of them) at $1 each. What happened to the remainder is unknown but John said that as the rep was now off the payroll they probably went into the nearest skip  

 

I don't think it was 50, John told me he took as many as he could get on a finger.

To most people old records by artists they have never heard of are just junk.

 

......and in some cases they would be correct  

 

Len  

............. I'd venture to guess that MOST of the bigger collections of even the hermit record collectors who swore to "Never let those grabby Brits get a hold of my beloved Soul records" .............

Out of interest Robb, are the Brits see as "grabby" by some collectors/dealers stateside?

In the late 70's early 80's I used to buy multiple copies of records (originals) at 65/75p and flog them locally to lads/mates in town. Now I know most of them only had a brief interest in Northern , 6 months maybe a year but I bet most of those records are still in the loft at either their place or the parents.

 

I think nowadays if people find anything i.e. a box of dusty old 45's they immediately think there's some dosh to be made , so they will appear on ebay at some point I reckon. In the meantime I'll just have to scroll through the zillions of Boots/re-issues/crap etc.

 

just my thoughts on this

 

Swifty

 

p.s. When I used to get soul packs from B & S and Soul Bowl other lads in the town did the same and as I said earlier dropped out of the scene nearly as quick as they came in , due to getting married etc. , wonder where those buggers are eh?

 

Just off into town to see if any of the old lads are about   

I think the interesting thing will not be the effect of the decline in a collection's price, rather - who will be bothered by it. I paid £1,200.00 for 'Andy Fisher - My Heart's Beating Stronger' a few years back, since then I've seen it sold on John Manships auction for a lot less than that (£800.00 odd I think) I can honestly say it hasn't bothered me at all, as for me it was worth it.

 

I think people like myself who have gradually bought their collections over many years won't be as bothered (or effected) as people who have amassed a collection over a short time - I have complete opposite examples of the above scenario.

 

Ref rarity - as has been suggested, time will tell (or at least throw up some surprises from time to time)

 

All the best,

 

Len  

Edited July 4, 201410 yr by LEN

Out of interest Robb, are the Brits see as "grabby" by some collectors/dealers stateside?

Doubtless there'll be some who, justifiably, think we are. Then again, I also reckon some of us see some of them as buffoons who think we can be dictated to and had over all day long. It's all good fun though.

 

On the subject of 'how rare', I always think anyone asking about 'known' copies would make it a more sensible question if they added the words 'among people currently active on the scene'. Gawd knows what's where and how many copies of stuff actually exist. Personally, I do quite like the guesswork that goes with collecting but I'm also realistic enough to maintain a healthy degree of scepticism if someone offers me a 'X known copies' record.

 

Also, as people have already said, there are bound to be plenty tucked away for various reasons and deep, group and a raft of other collectors who chase the same records but for very different reasons. Personally, I'm not sure about the scale of the Japanese / world-wide demand thing; an urban myth maybe which is built on perhaps a handful of quite wealthy individuals who buy heavy end records at auction? Dunno, Flynny would possibly be able to answer that insofar as Japan is concerned but who knows for sure?

Edited July 4, 201410 yr by PhilT

IMHO ,I think the really rare records haven't even been found yet ;)

IMHO ,I think the really rare records haven't even been found yet ;)

That would be like searching a farmers field with a metal detector.... pot luck

More like searching for gold with a magnet ;)

but i would like to see some kind of up to date publication of rarities,not so much the value,just the quantitie?

 

This book is the dogs dangleys,  not up to date as its been out for a few years now but it has a rating system for - price - rarity - quality

250 full colour pages of all the records you dream of  

 

Out of interest Robb, are the Brits see as "grabby" by some collectors/dealers stateside?

To be honest, I hardly talk to a living soul when I'm in USA. (L.A.).  I only know my sister and her husband, and their 2 kids, and my uncle and aunt, and my brother-in-law's parents, who are Danish, and spend a few months there.  I see them more in Denmark (where I am right now) than I do in L.A.  I am on Skype every night, talking with my friends in Holland and Germany.  All my friends in L.A. are deceased, or have moved away.  Almost everyone here now speaks Spanish or Chinese.  The two people I knew in USA (Bob Abrahamian and Ron Murphy) are deceased.  So, I can't tell you about current Americans.  But. during the late '60s and '70s there were a LOT of US collectors who resented Brits coming to USA and taking away lots of records they'd have otherwise gotten.

This book is the dogs dangleys,  not up to date as its been out for a few years now but it has a rating system for - price - rarity - quality

250 full colour pages of all the records you dream of  

 

8.JPG

I was very disappointed when this came out. It's not got any information on the records and the scans are of the whole disc so you can't even read what's on the label. So it misses on both counts. Not only that, some of the records aren't that rare, and others are just crap.

Oh, and some of the pages fell out.

But. during the late '60s and '70s there were a LOT of US collectors who resented Brits coming to USA and taking away lots of records they'd have otherwise gotten.

Interesting and understandable I suppose, territorial even and human nature!

I just danced to the buggers, you know, I think I got the best deal.

I was very disappointed when this came out. It's not got any information on the records and the scans are of the whole disc so you can't even read what's on the label. So it misses on both counts. Not only that, some of the records aren't that rare, and others are just crap.

Oh, and some of the pages fell out.

I reckon you got a bootleg book 

 

Just checked the pics and yes all the selves are on show so I see what you mean  

Edited July 4, 201410 yr by Mick Boyle

OK, I stand corrected. Didn't realise we got flooded with 'em. Sounds like there's a few hundred of 'em knocking around. Amazing.....

Ian D

Ian, you were right the first time. Most records brought over in the 70's started off cheap and many titles were in plentiful supply. Bootlegs sufficed for most collectors as they were affordable, available and hankered after once exposed. Some of the early Wigan spins disappeared into collections, never to be seen again giving them scarce status due to lack of availability according to Manny in the Million Dollars book eg Idle Few, Wombat. I remain doubtful about Mel Britt in quantity - I do remember Keith Minshall flogging box loads of boots at the Casino. Mel Britt sold well in Chicago judging from the Popsike listing but was probably only pressed up in the low thousands for the local market. The Tomangos is much rarer and I would be surprised if more than a few hundred were pressed up. Pressing plants put batches of 25 into small cartons then put 4 of these in a box for ease of handling and stock control - most groups cutting a record could not afford more than five boxes, and these were for promotion, radio stations, one-stop shops, friends and family. Many of the 25 count boxes found in recent years have come from band and family members. I would estimate that the records on minor independent labels we chase after were probably pressed in quantities of 300-500 in the main but in the low thousands if there was real confidence behind a particular release.

I know I never came across original copies of Mel Britt in the early 80s for the kind of money stated on here. Maybe I was mixing in the wrong circles.

Still got my boot/repress/2nd issue, whatever they are called these days.

Ian, you were right the first time. Most records brought over in the 70's started off cheap and many titles were in plentiful supply. Bootlegs sufficed for most collectors as they were affordable, available and hankered after once exposed. Some of the early Wigan spins disappeared into collections, never to be seen again giving them scarce status due to lack of availability according to Manny in the Million Dollars book eg Idle Few, Wombat. I remain doubtful about Mel Britt in quantity - I do remember Keith Minshall flogging box loads of boots at the Casino. Mel Britt sold well in Chicago judging from the Popsike listing but was probably only pressed up in the low thousands for the local market. The Tomangos is much rarer and I would be surprised if more than a few hundred were pressed up. Pressing plants put batches of 25 into small cartons then put 4 of these in a box for ease of handling and stock control - most groups cutting a record could not afford more than five boxes, and these were for promotion, radio stations, one-stop shops, friends and family. Many of the 25 count boxes found in recent years have come from band and family members. I would estimate that the records on minor independent labels we chase after were probably pressed in quantities of 300-500 in the main but in the low thousands if there was real confidence behind a particular release.

 

It's always difficult to gauge. I can remember when there was just one copy of "Bari Track" and then 500 came in from nowhere and it wasn't rare anymore. I just never realized that Mel Britt was in that category. I thought there were maybe 30 Mel Britts and 15 Tomangoes in the UK if that, but I obviously under-estimated wildly by the looks of it...........

 

Ian D 

It's always difficult to gauge. I can remember when there was just one copy of "Bari Track" and then 500 came in from nowhere and it wasn't rare anymore. I just never realized that Mel Britt was in that category. I thought there were maybe 30 Mel Britts and 15 Tomangoes in the UK if that, but I obviously under-estimated wildly by the looks of it...........

 

Ian D 

Bari Track was given away at the Casino one night. At Anniversaries, records were thrown off the stage into the audience and up to the balcony.

I would also suggest there are loads of folk who have never been to a NS do in their life have these discs amongst other records they collect, Motown collectors for example, may have loads of related discs they have picked up along the way & hoarded.

 

 

On mi travels in the last 5 years or so I've met a couple of record hounds that don't collect soul per say, but they know that northern is very collectable and worth a bit, so whilst they're digging for their vinyl of choice they pick up anything that looks interesting to trade or sell on for stuff they collect.

The people I'm thinking of collect Punk, Funk and Reggae 45s.

Derek

Edited July 5, 201410 yr by Derek Pearson

To be honest, I hardly talk to a living soul when I'm in USA. (L.A.).  I only know my sister and her husband, and their 2 kids, and my uncle and aunt, and my brother-in-law's parents, who are Danish, and spend a few months there.  I see them more in Denmark (where I am right now) than I do in L.A.  I am on Skype every night, talking with my friends in Holland and Germany.  All my friends in L.A. are deceased, or have moved away.  Almost everyone here now speaks Spanish or Chinese.  The two people I knew in USA (Bob Abrahamian and Ron Murphy) are deceased.  So, I can't tell you about current Americans.  But. during the late '60s and '70s there were a LOT of US collectors who resented Brits coming to USA and taking away lots of records they'd have otherwise gotten.

Hi Rob. The number of Brits visiting the US in the 60's was tiny. Even in the 70's, US travel was rare but the players were big hitters who took everything they could carry. John Anderson is the patron saint of record plunderers for recognising and procuring what would be appreciated here in Britain. Other guys like Levine and Searling fetched over the samples to fuel interest but there was only a small number of dealers and travel pioneers stripping the shelves pre 1980. Mass tourism in the 80's enabled many more driven collectors to visit the US but the Yanks had still not woken up to what has happening - even now, the average record dealer/collector in the US does not know what the soul record market is about and only takes note when there's $$$$$ flying around. Sadly for us in the UK, there are growing numbers of real experts in the US, Europe and Australasia making collecting a little bit tougher but we like a challenge, especially when we've had a thirty year head start...

It's always difficult to gauge. I can remember when there was just one copy of "Bari Track" and then 500 came in from nowhere and it wasn't rare anymore. I just never realized that Mel Britt was in that category. I thought there were maybe 30 Mel Britts and 15 Tomangoes in the UK if that, but I obviously under-estimated wildly by the looks of it...........

 

Ian D 

 

It was a case of 'blink and you'll miss it' sometimes in the early 80s. Mel Britt was being offered cheaply (and no they weren't boots) as clearly someone had found a number of copies and it was the same for the mass copies of 'If That's What You Wanted' which can still be found but now for several hundred quid. I was actually given a white demo on Sassy by a guy who didn't like it - that's how common they were regarded in 1982 or thereabouts. Others which I recall from that period and have now largely disappeared into collections were things like Royal Five 'Say It To My Face' (£5 - they were widely available), Gary Sole 'Holding On' (£10 - snapped up very quickly, now hardly ever seen) and probably a few others. A John Anderson list from that period might make interesting reading!

I actually think there are rareities still in the UK with folk who went to WC for example or else where, had a small box of records, dropped off the scene, never to be seen again, they'll be loads of small collections in lofts, sheds n garages all over the UK.  We assume that every person who ever went to a Nighter is well aware of the current scene & is romping around Stoke/Blackpool in an over sized pair of Spencers, that just isnt true. 

 

I would also suggest there are loads of folk who have never been to a NS do in thier life have these discs amongst other records they collect, Motown collectors for example, may have loads of related discs they have picked up along the way & hauded.

 

A friend of mine some years ago, who doesnt collect, but has been on the scene for years, phoned me to tell me that on the notice board at his place of work someone had put up a small note with a collection of soul records for sale, I contacted the guy, we met in a car park in Newbury, I bought the lot, about 500 records for £250, most of which were 7ts pressings & UK re issues, I took out what I wanted, including a Salvadors & a small clutch of other originals & sold the rest on to a dealer the same night for the same price, £250. 

 

I also found a small clutch of records including several raeities in the loft of an old Mod in Portsmouth.  And again, I know a guy who used to travel all over the south topping up Juke boxes, he has some British rareities & some other stuff, dont think he has been to a soul do in over 20 years or more.  They'll be loads of stuff like that knocking around all over the UK.

 

However, I dont see the arse dropping out of the collecting scene any time soon or even in 10 years, its a truly international thing now & together with a younger generation of collectors in the UK & the 10 yearly Mod revivals they'll be rareities selling for top wonga for many years to come.....

 

Best Russ

Romping! 

I think I ought to qualify my "You've got loads" reference earlier and give it a little context.

 

It would have been about 1980 ish and in truth he probably had 5. Now these were the only copies I had ever seen - so when you see 4 or 5 copies, to my mind alarms ought to ring. Probably in quite an unfounded way. But Rob would have got them wholesale, so if some had sufficient copies to sell wholesale they must have had a few. I should add that I have never seen another for sale (in the flesh as it were, never bought off the internet, I always got mine from other collectors, dealers etc).

 

It does remind me though of my dealings with Spot from Goole in the mid 70's. He frequently had multiples (4-5) and I once saw someone try the "You've got loads, I'm not paying that much!" approach and his response, along the lines of "I've got 5, when they're gone, they're gone, so suit yourself" saw the chap put his hand in his pocket, albeit reluctantly.

 

Now at that time, 5 of something you have never seen an original of looks like a lot - but I bet everything there sold and is worth a lot more than a £5 now!

 

The point being there probably weren't that many in the grand scheme of things, but over 30 or 40 years our memory tells us there were indeed relatively speaking loads, but even 500 copies of a decent record will disappear into collection and its scarcity will be re asserted over time.

 

 

 

Hi Rob. The number of Brits visiting the US in the 60's was tiny. Even in the 70's, US travel was rare but the players were big hitters who took everything they could carry. John Anderson is the patron saint of record plunderers for recognising and procuring what would be appreciated here in Britain. Other guys like Levine and Searling fetched over the samples to fuel interest but there was only a small number of dealers and travel pioneers stripping the shelves pre 1980. Mass tourism in the 80's enabled many more driven collectors to visit the US but the Yanks had still not woken up to what has happening - even now, the average record dealer/collector in the US does not know what the soul record market is about and only takes note when there's $$$$$ flying around. Sadly for us in the UK, there are growing numbers of real experts in the US, Europe and Australasia making collecting a little bit tougher but we like a challenge, especially when we've had a thirty year head start...

Well, I would say that I only came across a few Brit Soul record hunters in USA before 1977, but from 1977-1984 there were very many.  Those I saw most were Nev Wherry, Bob "Larry" Wagner, Rod Shard, Dave Withers, Dave Raistrick, and Martin Koppel regularly raided my favourite place to find records (Detroit).  John Anderson took away loads of great records from our Chicago warehouses.  And, I had heard from the owners of many of my regular shops and warehouses that "I sold out the lot to a British guy", or some British guys came in here for 3 days and bought hundreds.  After 1984, I was mainly in Europe, and didn't look for records in USA at all.  But the US collectors I knew still DID have that attitude towards what The British in The NS were doing to the chances of our hard core Soul collectors (including many Black Soul fans) finding any decent non-hit Soul records with at least one fast or fast mid-tempo side.  Luckily, at that time, The Soulies were still not interested in slower mid-tempos and "beat ballads".  Now, they like just about all Soul.  So, they are competing with us regular general Soul fans for EVERYTHING.

I guess what's interesting is trying to gauge roughly how many copies of a record are in the country and, hence, what constitutes 'rare'? Here's table I knocked up earlier:-

 

Holy Grail - 1-2 copies

Ultra Rare - 2-10 copies

Super Rare - 10 - 30 copies

Very Rare - 30 - 50 copies

Rare - 50 - 100 copies

Collectors Staple 100-500 copies

 

All a bit of fun and totally subjective of course. I would have put Mel Britt in the 'Very Rare' category but, yikes, it appears that it could a dreaded 'Collectors Staple' which means that far too many people have it thus making it somewhat less desirable than "I'm Gone" which is a proper Ultra Rare.  

 

Can't be piddling around with a Mel Britt original anymore dammit. You could build a house with the amount of originals that are knocking around.......

 

Ian D 

Well, I would say that I only came across a few Brit Soul record hunters in USA before 1977, but from 1977-1984 there were very many.  Those I saw most were Nev Wherry, Bob "Larry" Wagner, Rod Shard, Dave Withers, Dave Raistrick, and Martin Koppel regularly raided my favourite place to find records (Detroit).  John Anderson took away loads of great records from our Chicago warehouses.  And, I had heard from the owners of many of my regular shops and warehouses that "I sold out the lot to a British guy", or some British guys came in here for 3 days and bought hundreds.  After 1984, I was mainly in Europe, and didn't look for records in USA at all.  But the US collectors I knew still DID have that attitude towards what The British in The NS were doing to the chances of our hard core Soul collectors (including many Black Soul fans) finding any decent non-hit Soul records with at least one fast or fast mid-tempo side.  Luckily, at that time, The Soulies were still not interested in slower mid-tempos and "beat ballads".  Now, they like just about all Soul.  So, they are competing with us regular general Soul fans for EVERYTHING.

 

But what about the Japanese? 

 

I was over there in 1976 and tended to compete with those pesky Japanese diggers who seemed to be hitting the same places as me but taking everything! There's been a few occasions when I've walked in a shop, seen a Japanese guy with a big stack of interesting looking records and thought 'forget it'. I once had a tug of war with a Japanese guy over a Little Charles on Botanic at a great shop in Madison, Wisconsin. Ridiculous. I used to hate having to get up @ 4.00am for record fairs simply to be there at the same time as the Japanese guys with the the U-Haul trucks 'cos they would just buy everything and load it. That's why Dave Flynn consistently turns up good stuff in Japan. There's TONS of it over there believe me.

 

So it wasn't just us Northern Soulers that were raping and pillaging your records Robb! 

 

Ian D