Where Are All The Bootlegs/reissues Coming From

[Guest UPTITE U250A]

Well I'm just talking about the last ten years

in that case then,nothing really contraversial there!

[Glynthornhill]

Who runs Out a sight ?

Rob  :  As far as company records show Outta Sight owned by Glenn Gunton of Warwickshire....Born out of the Sanctuary group - now distributed via Passion Music  ( Les McCutchen    ) ...

[Rob Wigley]

A couple of old soul boys there then Glyn !

[Roual Galloway]

And why do these companies insist on look a like labels. There was another one mentioned on here a few days back - Above Board - who are re-issuing TK product. The first one is Milton Wright - Keep It Up on a look a like Alston label.

 

Why can't they just put them out with their own label designs.

that's a legit pressing through Henry Stones son so could be part of the contract

[Ian Dewhirst]

that's a legit pressing through Henry Stones son so could be part of the contract

 

I had this conversation with Dan @ Above Board. I was under the impression that the TK group was bought by Roulette and then EMI bought Roulette and all the associated labels, including TK. In fact, I recently went through the Roulette catalogue listing of assets from prior to the EMI purchase and all the TK labels were included. Then Universal bought EMI and supposedly all it's assets. So how come TK managed to get free of all that I wonder....? 

 

Ian D 

[Roual Galloway]

I had this conversation with Dan @ Above Board. I was under the impression that the TK group was bought by Roulette and then EMI bought Roulette and all the associated labels, including TK. In fact, I recently went through the Roulette catalogue listing of assets from prior to the EMI purchase and all the TK labels were included. Then Universal bought EMI and supposedly all it's assets. So how come TK managed to get free of all that I wonder....? 

 

Ian D 

:-) you've also got Fryers re-presses that have been released recently

[Mtay9778]

So if Outta Sight are legit, what about the rest of the lookalike stuff on the likes of Soulful Records and eBay?

[Baldsoulie]

Not easy to police but how many non legit records are sold in the sales section on this site or have links to non legit sales on other sites? If we can not be bothered how can we complain about other sites like ebay not policing this problem effectively.

[Pete S]

Not easy to police but how many non legit records are sold in the sales section on this site or have links to non legit sales on other sites? If we can not be bothered how can we complain about other sites like ebay not policing this problem effectively.

 

I just sell old pressings sometimes - 30, 40 years old.  If I was actually making them and selling them then yes, that wouldn't be acceptable.

[Mike]

if talking about policing then

 

shouldn't the onus be on those who hold the rights to sort the policing out

 

have all these lookalike legal 45s and cd comps knocking around nowadays

 

so why aren't the people behind these  jumping on the non-legal releases on places like ebay

 

lost sales/profits  for these legal 45s/comps must also mean lost royalties due to the artists/writers  ?

[Modernsoulsucks]

Not easy to police but how many non legit records are sold in the sales section on this site or have links to non legit sales on other sites? If we can not be bothered how can we complain about other sites like ebay not policing this problem effectively.

 

 

Apart from old boots, hardly any on this site I  think. Seen the odd thing from within last 5 years say but usually as a one-off and part of a private sale as opposed to the commercial selling that you get on EBay.

 

 

ROD

[Swifty]

Is this one legit

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NORTHERN-SOUL-REISSUE-SALVADORS-STICK-ME-BABY-ACE-SPECTRUM-DONT-SEND-NOBODY-/131427661986?clk_rvr_id=782627710573&rmvSB=true

 

 

 

[Kjw]

Is this one legit

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NORTHERN-SOUL-REISSUE-SALVADORS-STICK-ME-BABY-ACE-SPECTRUM-DONT-SEND-NOBODY-/131427661986?clk_rvr_id=782627710573&rmvSB=true

 

 

 

 

You shouldn't do that Pete

 

There will be a lot of disappointed people out there now who suddenly realise they don't have an original copy

[Swifty]

You shouldn't do that Pete

 

There will be a lot of disappointed people out there now who suddenly realise they don't have an original copy

  Sack the typesetter !!!

[pikeys dog]

At least Jo Aramdrad might see some royalties from it....

[Baldsoulie]

Is this one legit

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NORTHERN-SOUL-REISSUE-SALVADORS-STICK-ME-BABY-ACE-SPECTRUM-DONT-SEND-NOBODY-/131427661986?clk_rvr_id=782627710573&rmvSB=true

 

 

 

What??, how do you retract a bid.

[Guest Matt Male]

At least Jo Aramdrad might see some royalties from it....

 

Who is this Chuck Hughs bloke? And 'A Jack's Frad'?

Edited February 18, 2015 by Matt Male

[Baldsoulie]

Perhaps the use of the term 'policing' was incorrect in my previous point #58, I didn't mean start reporting folk to th authorities, just not allow obvious boots to be sold / promoted through this site?. I used the term to mean deleting any adverts / links to these types of records.   Nor am I saying these new breed of boot with the exact copy labels are been advertised on here but should we tolerate any non legitimate record to be advertised?.  There is always ebay, discogs, FB for the boots etc. just not this site?.   However, there are many discussions on this site about which is the original of many records, correct label print, matrix, dimples vs. no dimples,  we might as well just shut up and face facts, what would we discussed if there were no boots.   

[Amsterdam Russ]

 

if talking about policing then

 

shouldn't the onus be on those who hold the rights to sort the policing out

 

have all these lookalike legal 45s and cd comps knocking around nowadays

 

so why aren't the people behind these  jumping on the non-legal releases on places like ebay

 

lost sales/profits  for these legal 45s/comps must also mean lost royalties due to the artists/writers  ?

 

Based on a run of, say, 500 per bootlegged item, what loss of earnings and royalties, etc, compared to the mass-scale digital piracy associated with today's music?

 

I'm sure that in many cases it would probably cost rights owners more to chase someone pressing a limited run boot than they'd ever recover when they caught and prosecuted the people involved. Think of all the legal costs, salaries, etc, etc. I'd doubt if any court outcome would award costs that would cover all of that and even more to make it worthwhile.

 

Online marketplaces such as eBay and Discogs should perhaps be taking more responsibility - especially if eBay forbids the sale of counterfeit products in sectors outside of records. To not do so for records while doing so for other products seems rather hypocritical.

[Mike]

Based on a run of, say, 500 per bootlegged item, what loss of earnings and royalties, etc, compared to the mass-scale digital piracy associated with today's music?

 

I'm sure that in many cases it would probably cost rights owners more to chase someone pressing a limited run boot than they'd ever recover when they caught and prosecuted the people involved. Think of all the legal costs, salaries, etc, etc. I'd doubt if any court outcome would award costs that would cover all of that and even more to make it worthwhile.

 

Online marketplaces such as eBay and Discogs should perhaps be taking more responsibility - especially if eBay forbids the sale of counterfeit products in sectors outside of records. To not do so for records while doing so for other products seems rather hypocritical.

 

 

the owners of the rights should in theory just have to report to ebay etc yep?

same as they do for youtube

 

if someone owns or is leasing or whatever the rights to a track then shouldn't ebay etc listen to them and take the necessary action?

 

what do label involved types on here do ?

ian d etc

do you report bootlegs of your tracks ?

[Ian Dewhirst]

the owners of the rights should in theory just have to report to ebay etc yep?

same as they do for youtube

 

if someone owns or is leasing or whatever the rights to a track then shouldn't ebay etc listen to them and take the necessary action?

 

what do label involved types on here do ?

ian d etc

do you report bootlegs of your tracks ?

 

In short, no Mike. I've been following bootlegs since I worked @ Decca in the mid 70s. Back then it was the MCPS's responsibility to hunt down and prosecute. However, nothing much happened - they seemed to be waiting to catch the big boys at it and every so often, they would.

 

These days, the bootleggers operate from dubious addresses and always seem to stay one step ahead of any potential law suits. Truth is it costs far more in legal costs then you would ever recoup from a successful prosecution so it's simply not worth pursuing these people and they probably already know that. Basically the legal system is too expensive to bust anything less than a major player these days, so it's likely that they'll carry on indefinitely unfortunately....

 

Ian D 

[Ian Dewhirst]

Based on a run of, say, 500 per bootlegged item, what loss of earnings and royalties, etc, compared to the mass-scale digital piracy associated with today's music?

 

I'm sure that in many cases it would probably cost rights owners more to chase someone pressing a limited run boot than they'd ever recover when they caught and prosecuted the people involved. Think of all the legal costs, salaries, etc, etc. I'd doubt if any court outcome would award costs that would cover all of that and even more to make it worthwhile.

 

Online marketplaces such as eBay and Discogs should perhaps be taking more responsibility - especially if eBay forbids the sale of counterfeit products in sectors outside of records. To not do so for records while doing so for other products seems rather hypocritical.

 

Bang on Russell.

 

Ian D 

[Mike]

In short, no Mike. I've been following bootlegs since I worked @ Decca in the mid 70s. Back then it was the MCPS's responsibility to hunt down and prosecute. However, nothing much happened - they seemed to be waiting to catch the big boys at it and every so often, they would.

 

These days, the bootleggers operate from dubious addresses and always seem to stay one step ahead of any potential law suits. Truth is it costs far more in legal costs then you would ever recoup from a successful prosecution so it's simply not worth pursuing these people and they probably already know that. Basically the legal system is too expensive to bust anything less than a major player these days, so it's likely that they'll carry on indefinitely unfortunately....

 

Ian D 

 

 

thanks for reply Ian

but not really on about the law or courts etc

just online , as in ebay 

 

if someone has the rights to  track 'x'  can they not report illegal copies of  track 'x' on ebay  and get them removed ?

[Paul Shirley]

losing the plot  had to delete as i'm on the wrong thread thought it was about the guy doing the labels 

Edited February 20, 2015 by steptoe

[Kjw]

Perhaps the music companies should issue warnings to Ebay when they see copies of their material listed.

 

It raises the question that if those warnings are ignored could they take legal action against Ebay for knowingly allowing and aiding the selling of those items - they stand a chance of a bigger payout from Ebay than some unknown individual.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Perhaps the music companies should issue warnings to Ebay when they see copies of their material listed.

 

It raises the question that if those warnings are ignored could they take legal action against Ebay for knowingly allowing and aiding the selling of those items - they stand a chance of a bigger payout from Ebay than some unknown individual.

 

Well that sounds eminently sensible to me. However, all the big record companies retain plenty of legal counsel so there's no real reason why they wouldn't have considered this route. It's probably all about about money, as are most things.

 

I've got a leaving do tomorrow so I'll target a couple of legal types and interrogate 'em and try and find out why they're not bothering. As long as I don't get charged! 

 

Ian D 

[Ian Dewhirst]

thanks for reply Ian

but not really on about the law or courts etc

just online , as in ebay 

 

if someone has the rights to  track 'x'  can they not report illegal copies of  track 'x' on ebay  and get them removed ?

 

I guess they could but to do that effectively it would probably take a couple of full-time 'copyright detectives' to compile the information. The only time this ever happens these days is if someone just happens to catch something and then forces someone else to chase it up.  

 

Also record companies are consistently shrinking these days. Demon has halved in size since I joined in 2009 and those that are left are increasingly having to do much more monotonous work - endless form-filling, online data inputs, ISRC code registrations, internal compliance etc, etc. It's an endless nightmare of administration and much more work for far less return.

 

The physical music business really is on it's last legs in my opinion, despite Harmless just having probably its biggest year ever in terms of revenues. The ridiculous push towards streaming will finally kill-off what's left of the physical market if what's happened in Norway and Sweden happens here, which seems likely.

 

I'd say Northern Soul bootlegs on e-bay are probably the least of the record company's worries right now Mike. So my guess is that they'll continue to ignore it!

 

Ian D 

[Jnixon]

I'd also wager that many of the R&B bootlegs around at the moment are pressed in the US, but under the counter.

 

its a kid in the UK, apparently. not sure how true this rumour is

[Pete S]

its a kid in the UK, apparently. not sure how true this rumour is

 

Tells you exactly who it is in a post above...

[Jnixon]

Tells you exactly who it is in a post above...

 

yeah i got that after posting.

 

theres some kid distributing them around London then, at the very least

[Guest lamont7]

Magnetics lady in green/heart your made of stone now at juno-£6.99 ,Bargain ,how much for a real one?

[Geoff Whitfield]

I guess they could but to do that effectively it would probably take a couple of full-time 'copyright detectives' to compile the information. The only time this ever happens these days is if someone just happens to catch something and then forces someone else to chase it up.  

 

Also record companies are consistently shrinking these days. Demon has halved in size since I joined in 2009 and those that are left are increasingly having to do much more monotonous work - endless form-filling, online data inputs, ISRC code registrations, internal compliance etc, etc. It's an endless nightmare of administration and much more work for far less return.

 

The physical music business really is on it's last legs in my opinion, despite Harmless just having probably its biggest year ever in terms of revenues. The ridiculous push towards streaming will finally kill-off what's left of the physical market if what's happened in Norway and Sweden happens here, which seems likely.

 

I'd say Northern Soul bootlegs on e-bay are probably the least of the record company's worries right now Mike. So my guess is that they'll continue to ignore it!

 

Ian D 

Hi Ian

I bow to your vast knowledge and length of service in the music business and

you have a point about how streaming is taking off but a lot of that business is coming from download sales falling off a cliff, physical product is having it tough but it has got life in it yet, especially with the return of vinyl(yes still a very small percentage of sales) but this year will see even more growth,we are now at the stage on certain titles selling more vinyl than cd(and that's not because the sales of the cd are poor).Both physical products still have life in them as  people still like a physical product to handle /art work/sleeve notes etc.

It's tough out there but if you offer the right product at the right price in the right environment you have a chance.

this is imho.

 

thanks

 

Geoff

[Pete S]

If I were in the business, I'd fear more for cd's than vinyl.  I spent thousands of pounds on a cd collection then realised I never actually played them, and I'd just used them to put tracks into itunes.  So I started selling them, and anything I wanted on cd, well basically it's three clicks on a computer for a free copy isn't it.  So I have not bought a cd for about 8 years now (except for some £2.99 compilations from Sainsburys).  After years of paying £15 for a silver disc...people decided they weren't mugs after all.  A few years ago I predicted that in 20 years time there would be no such thing as cd's, maybe their decline will be more rapid than that.

[Ian Dewhirst]

If I were in the business, I'd fear more for cd's than vinyl.  I spent thousands of pounds on a cd collection then realised I never actually played them, and I'd just used them to put tracks into itunes.  So I started selling them, and anything I wanted on cd, well basically it's three clicks on a computer for a free copy isn't it.  So I have not bought a cd for about 8 years now (except for some £2.99 compilations from Sainsburys).  After years of paying £15 for a silver disc...people decided they weren't mugs after all.  A few years ago I predicted that in 20 years time there would be no such thing as cd's, maybe their decline will be more rapid than that.

 

I'm completely the opposite as I collect CDs religiously simply because I need the best possible quality masters which you can't get any other way as all digital downloads are crap quality and cannot be used for mastering. It's a great time to collect CDs!

 

Ian D 

[Ian Dewhirst]

Hi Ian

I bow to your vast knowledge and length of service in the music business and

you have a point about how streaming is taking off but a lot of that business is coming from download sales falling off a cliff, physical product is having it tough but it has got life in it yet, especially with the return of vinyl(yes still a very small percentage of sales) but this year will see even more growth,we are now at the stage on certain titles selling more vinyl than cd(and that's not because the sales of the cd are poor).Both physical products still have life in them as  people still like a physical product to handle /art work/sleeve notes etc.

It's tough out there but if you offer the right product at the right price in the right environment you have a chance.

this is imho.

 

thanks

 

Geoff

 

I know too well Geoff but I see the stats every day and if you look at what's happened in Sweden and Norway, the explosion in streaming has reduced the physical business by 65% in a year. If that happens in the U.K. - and all the signs are that it's happening right now - then the main physical business will be dead in a few years. As per usual the music industry has killed another golden goose. I'm sure there'll always be a die-hard physical market but the days of mass-market physical sales are fast-declining. I hope I'm wrong but experience tells me otherwise....

 

Ian D 

[Guest UPTITE U250A]

I had this conversation with Dan @ Above Board. I was under the impression that the TK group was bought by Roulette and then EMI bought Roulette and all the associated labels, including TK. In fact, I recently went through the Roulette catalogue listing of assets from prior to the EMI purchase and all the TK labels were included. Then Universal bought EMI and supposedly all it's assets. So how come TK managed to get free of all that I wonder....? 

 

Ian D 

I always wondered where their record stock got dumped...I watched them loading up lorries one night....just bad luck I got there a little late for that one...

[Pete S]

I'm completely the opposite as I collect CDs religiously simply because I need the best possible quality masters which you can't get any other way as all digital downloads are crap quality and cannot be used for mastering. It's a great time to collect CDs!

 

Ian D 

 

I always found that when I bought a cd and there was a straight from the master stereo version of something I'd heard for years in mono, I'd have preferred it to be dubbed off the original record.  I realise I might be on my own here but as far as 60's Northern Soul records go, nothing beats the original vinyl, especially  cleaned up hear a pin drop master tapes.  The magic is lost.

[Ady Croasdell]

If I were in the business, I'd fear more for cd's than vinyl.  I spent thousands of pounds on a cd collection then realised I never actually played them, and I'd just used them to put tracks into itunes.  So I started selling them, and anything I wanted on cd, well basically it's three clicks on a computer for a free copy isn't it.  So I have not bought a cd for about 8 years now (except for some £2.99 compilations from Sainsburys).  After years of paying £15 for a silver disc...people decided they weren't mugs after all.  A few years ago I predicted that in 20 years time there would be no such thing as cd's, maybe their decline will be more rapid than that.

I see your point Pete but then you don't get the story, pics and history of the music. I think Kent CD booklets are about 50% of the package and why they ain't cheap and never will be.

[Pete S]

I see your point Pete but then you don't get the story, pics and history of the music. I think Kent CD booklets are about 50% of the package and why they ain't cheap and never will be.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of major artists Ady.  Paying £15 for yet another remastered version of Diamond Dogs or Aladdin Sane which I've already bought twice on cd for extra tracks and 'digital remasters', bought on vinyl when it came out etc.  

The Kent CD booklets are worth the price of the cd on their own.

[Roual Galloway]

If I were in the business, I'd fear more for cd's than vinyl.  I spent thousands of pounds on a cd collection then realised I never actually played them, and I'd just used them to put tracks into itunes.  So I started selling them, and anything I wanted on cd, well basically it's three clicks on a computer for a free copy isn't it.  So I have not bought a cd for about 8 years now (except for some £2.99 compilations from Sainsburys).  After years of paying £15 for a silver disc...people decided they weren't mugs after all.  A few years ago I predicted that in 20 years time there would be no such thing as cd's, maybe their decline will be more rapid than that.

When I first started working for a CD manufacturer in 1998 there were around 14 factories of various sizes in the UK. As of 1st January 2015 there's only one left in the UK. I saw the decline around 10 years ago and got out for a few years but it pulled me back in, although i'm selling a more varied product range these days. 

[Stephen T]

Awww go on Pete, once more. You know it's like groundhog day on here.

 

You're right though, I know your reason. I wonder if Stephen has a different reason though?

I got into Soul through hip hop. I started buying records in the 90s when I could afford it. So I'd go to America to dig, get Soul Packs and also the represses from Goldmine and other labels but as well as being into Soul I also like and buy Jazz, reggae, country so I can't afford to be snobby about presses and am not inclined to be either. Only problem is now I've started DJing at Soul events and putting on my own event (Bless My Soul in Brixton). I have enough big originals to hold my own guesting at other people's OVO nights but after tonight's 5th BMS I'm dropping the OVO policy as it doesn't benefit me or my punters. Very few people care and are just happy your playing good tunes on vinyl 

[Guest Matt Male]

I got into Soul through hip hop. I started buying records in the 90s when I could afford it. So I'd go to America to dig, get Soul Packs and also the represses from Goldmine and other labels but as well as being into Soul I also like and buy Jazz, reggae, country so I can't afford to be snobby about presses and am not inclined to be either. Only problem is now I've started DJing at Soul events and putting on my own event (Bless My Soul in Brixton). I have enough big originals to hold my own guesting at other people's OVO nights but after tonight's 5th BMS I'm dropping the OVO policy as it doesn't benefit me or my punters. Very few people care and are just happy your playing good tunes on vinyl 

 

Cheers Stephen

[Mark Soul]

Ebay full of boots and reissues these people are killing our scene nuff said

[Dean Rudland]

I had this conversation with Dan @ Above Board. I was under the impression that the TK group was bought by Roulette and then EMI bought Roulette and all the associated labels, including TK. In fact, I recently went through the Roulette catalogue listing of assets from prior to the EMI purchase and all the TK labels were included. Then Universal bought EMI and supposedly all it's assets. So how come TK managed to get free of all that I wonder....? 

 

Ian D 

Ian 

you are absolutely right.

It's why all of these TK issues licensed from Henry and his son have been dubs from discs.

As I understand it there are some early titles which he retained ownership of, but most are bootlegs, if licensed from the original owner.

The reason that EMI never chased Henry was because he was operating in the US and they only had UK rights - Warners had the US rights.

Since they ended up with EMI UK, Warner now have this for the world.

[Stephen T]

Ebay full of boots and reissues these people are killing our scene nuff said

Please expand Mark- I don't think nuff was said. Why would "boots and reissues" be "killing our scene"? Is our scene collecting and playing original press records? Or enjoying and dancing to Northern soul music?

 

I say the more 45s available for DJs to play the more exposure the music gets so therefore is good for the scene (if the scene is enjoying and dancing to Northern soul music).

[Dave Rimmer]

Please expand Mark- I don't think nuff was said. Why would "boots and reissues" be "killing our scene"? Is our scene collecting and playing original press records? Or enjoying and dancing to Northern soul music?

 

I say the more 45s available for DJs to play the more exposure the music gets so therefore is good for the scene (if the scene is enjoying and dancing to Northern soul music).

Because 'the scene' is both collecting, playing, and dancing to original American Soul records..

Are you aware of art galleries that hang prints of original paintings on the wall, just so the public can see them ?

no, neither am I, so why should a bootleg be accepted ?

[Stephen T]

Because 'the scene' is both collecting, playing, and dancing to original American Soul records..

Are you aware of art galleries that hang prints of original paintings on the wall, just so the public can see them ?

no, neither am I, so why should a bootleg be accepted ?

The records are not one-off like a painting is but there are exhibitions showing prints of photographs or lithographs etc so that more than one gallery may own such a print - obscure argument getting us off-topic.

 

I'm not sure how intrinsic the 'original American Soul records' really have to be. Now in 2015 some of those old originals are getting warn out- crackly. Move over granddad some of us spring chickens are here to change things with our Outta Sight presses!!

[Pete S]

The records are not one-off like a painting is but there are exhibitions showing prints of photographs or lithographs etc so that more than one gallery may own such a print - obscure argument getting us off-topic.

 

I'm not sure how intrinsic the 'original American Soul records' really have to be. Now in 2015 some of those old originals are getting warn out- crackly. Move over granddad some of us spring chickens are here to change things with our Outta Sight presses!!

 

Grandad 

You do what you feel is best Stephen, a few bootlegs are not life threatening to anyone.  Someone once said "It's what's in the grooves that count".

[Ady Croasdell]

I got into Soul through hip hop. I started buying records in the 90s when I could afford it. So I'd go to America to dig, get Soul Packs and also the represses from Goldmine and other labels but as well as being into Soul I also like and buy Jazz, reggae, country so I can't afford to be snobby about presses and am not inclined to be either. Only problem is now I've started DJing at Soul events and putting on my own event (Bless My Soul in Brixton). I have enough big originals to hold my own guesting at other people's OVO nights but after tonight's 5th BMS I'm dropping the OVO policy as it doesn't benefit me or my punters. Very few people care and are just happy your playing good tunes on vinyl

Great story and good luck with the club. I don't see why you would start with OVO and abandon it though. How will that improve the night, weren't your DJs working out for you?

[pow wow mik]

I got into Soul through hip hop. I started buying records in the 90s when I could afford it. So I'd go to America to dig, get Soul Packs and also the represses from Goldmine and other labels but as well as being into Soul I also like and buy Jazz, reggae, country so I can't afford to be snobby about presses and am not inclined to be either. Only problem is now I've started DJing at Soul events and putting on my own event (Bless My Soul in Brixton). I have enough big originals to hold my own guesting at other people's OVO nights but after tonight's 5th BMS I'm dropping the OVO policy as it doesn't benefit me or my punters. Very few people care and are just happy your playing good tunes on vinyl 

 

maybe your punters would be elsewhere, hearing DJs who have more stuff than you, if you weren't running a club with a play anything policy, did you ever consider that? Not being mean, but why do YOU have to be the DJ? You sound like you don't quite have enough resources