I have been meaning to post this for a while as it's really getting me down, as a 50 yr old Northern Soul fanatic who has been collecting records for over 35 year I think this must be said.

At 15 years old and having very little money, I too collected bootleg records from wigan to play at the youth clubs etc, these records stuck out a mile that they were boots and to be honest nobody bothered as we all had f*ck all and as long as we could hear the top tunes during the week before heading back to Wigan at the weekend to see and hear the originals. At the time we also had Grapevine and Destiny records which too were repected, excepted and collectible.

As the years have gone by more money found its way into my pockets and originals were the order of the day, and lucky for me still quite easy to get hold of, now my collection is very large and filled with expensive top tunes which I get great pleasure of playing from time to time at soul nights in the North West.

Here's my problem, whoever is consistently reproducing the latest crop of top tunes on almost exactly the same label please f*ck *ff doing so, put them out on your own label if you want. Nothing worse than getting your records ready to do your spot when you see the DJ putting on a £10 boot which cost you £100's on the exact same label and now you cant get the pleasure of playing it.

You know who you are so get on with designing your own label before the TAX MAN has you.

I'm sure I'm not on my own with these thoughts. Together we can put a stop to this and keep Northern Soul the most wanted and expensive music ever.

Edited July 3, 201212 yr by chalky

'pk 22dj' timestamp='1341344918' post='1769648']

After calming down somewhat and looking back at my post reactions I would like to apologise for the fffing, at my age as you rightly say i should calm down a bit and ignore what's going on. They will carry on booting and I have no doubt collectors will buy them, I said collectors not so called DJs. You don't have to have £1000 pound records to be a good DJ, as there are fantastic tunes we all love and fill a dance floors for 10-20 quid and on original labels. My problem is copying labels is totally wrong as the people who buy them would buy them for a £10 on a printed white label if they wanted to play them at home etc. The fact I saw some DJ play something on a boot and did not say anything was due to two things, firstly I can't see that good without my specks and did not realise it was a boot till I was told afterwards. Secondly the tune had just been booted that week, one thing is for sure if it were on a white label that DJ would not have played it. I'm lucky as most of us are to have records that have gone through the roof value wise due mainly to the fact I carried on buying after Wigan etc not knowing they would double / treble in price. I was hoping they might read this and adjust their thoughts on label design, not holding out much hope though. Cheers everyone and keep on souling, I'm off to Valencia with a box of originals this weekend to DJ life is not that bad after all.

thanks pk22DJ

I think a lot of people understand where you are comming from, i think we need to remember that not everyone can afford these tunes normally but love them. i look at it another way. if guys play them at home they grow to love them more, want to hear them out at dos, do`s continue, dj`s get asked to play. records get released and so the cycle continues...............

that said, i think one of the big issues that narks guys is they get asked to dj and follow someone who just played his top tunes, that people want to hear him play, on absolute OUT AND OUT BOOTS made to "decieve" or not to "allegedly". i remeber buying joey delorenzo back in 1999 off george, not cheap but only kenny and ginger i think had it (probably another somewhere, remember it WAS a great tune).....imagine my disgust having it played where i was djing ON A CD. i have the same problem as others with this. its these collectors, dealers and djs who kept the scene going for me and allowed me the opportunity to find and hear some of the best music ever, WE OWE THEM A LOT and should respect it. think where we might be if it wasnt for johnny manship, ginger taylor, gerorge hunt, danny spiers, ady croasdale and many many others who have shared thier love of soul music with us . although i will say i am collecting the go ahead stuff. i think the value is tremendous and the effort put in by whoever does these is just the best quality ever. the pic sleeves and notes are the best. these are the only ones to buy. but what if some one had an original master tape of a top tune and got it put on a carver, would that be acceptable, if the tune was another version and intro, and better. something really rare like magnetics, ernie williams, the inticers or a motown thing, would the carver be acceptable. i think so. i wonder if someone will do holly st james soon and spoil the energy around that one, unless its go ahead of course. then i for one will buy it

Edited July 4, 201212 yr by turntableterra

If all these re-issues were played at home, then I don't think we would be having this discussion in the first place.

The scene needs promoters who actually know about rare soul, have integrity, and have the bo***cks to refuse to let any Tom, Dick, and Harry with a box of look a like 45's have a spot [i let him cos he brings all his mates].

The one thing missing on the scene is integrity.

Another general sweeping statement Phil. There are promoters with integrity, plenty of them but as in any walk of life there are others who couldn't care and will play by different rules.

Another general sweeping statement Phil. There are promoters with integrity, plenty of them but as in any walk of life there are others who couldn't care and will play by different rules.

It comes back to that "Right of reply" topic again, two, possibly three different Northern scenes, the upfront ones are the ones with integrity, playing the original vinyl, the others are nostalgia/oldies/good times venues where they don't care. Make the choice before heading out and you won't be disappointed.

It comes back to that "Right of reply" topic again, two, possibly three different Northern scenes, the upfront ones are the ones with integrity, playing the original vinyl, the others are nostalgia/oldies/good times venues where they don't care. Make the choice before heading out and you won't be disappointed.

There are also "oldies" promoters with integrity who do care but yeah essentially you are right.

There is enough information about venues these days out there and most of us know what is what where DJ's and promoters are concerned and we go where we choose based upon this info.

It comes back to that "Right of reply" topic again, two, possibly three different Northern scenes, the upfront ones are the ones with integrity, playing the original vinyl, the others are nostalgia/oldies/good times venues where they don't care. Make the choice before heading out and you won't be disappointed.

Well said Pete.

They are reliable to the extent that the figures come from information in the public domain in the form of statutory accounts filed at Companies House, albeit in an abbreviated form.

We use that site at work every day. Info is at least a year out of date.

Another general sweeping statement Phil. There are promoters with integrity, plenty of them but as in any walk of life there are others who couldn't care and will play by different rules.

I can't agree with that Chalky, there's lots of "blind eyes, and ears" being turned. Everyone knows it goes on, but nobody dares to speak up.

I agree Phil, eyes and ears are turned by some but not by all, there's plenty from across the scene, oldies, upfront, whatever label you give it, who do care, IMO of course.

Here's a genuine thought about all this lot.

All 'scene ethos' blah blah aside, I understand all that, heard a million arguments for and against a million times, but at the end of the day, isn't a thread like this started because a DJ has had his ego bruised because he hasn't had the chance to show off his prize possessions?

I think it is but no way would anyone be big enough or man enough to admit it.

Roger

Here's a genuine thought about all this lot.

All 'scene ethos' blah blah aside, I understand all that, heard a million arguments for and against a million times, but at the end of the day, isn't a thread like this started because a DJ has had his ego bruised because he hasn't had the chance to show off his prize possessions?

I think it is but no way would anyone be big enough or man enough to admit it.

Roger

Maybe, sometimes, that might be true Roger.

But I also know that many of my friends who either do not collect vinyl, or who do not wish to DJ, are very much against the playing of bootlegs, re-issues or CDs at northern soul events too.

They (as I am) are concerned with the principle of the thing.

Plus they (as I do) believe that a collector or DJ who is interested in, and cares sufficiently about, building a collection of good quality genuine records - whether they be cheap or expensive - will generally play a more exciting and innovative set.

Maybe, sometimes, that might be true Roger.

But I also know that many of my friends who either do not collect vinyl, or who do not wish to DJ, are very much against the playing of bootlegs, re-issues or CDs at northern soul events too.

They (as I am) are concerned with the principle of the thing.

Plus they (as I do) believe that a collector or DJ who is interested in, and cares sufficiently about, building a collection of good quality genuine records - whether they be cheap or expensive - will generally play a more exciting and innovative set.

spot on really, for me its always been about what makesyou collect, is it the deisre to hear fresh tunes; to delve deeper and learn about underground music or do you look up at say Sean Chapman and think, 'I wannabe like him', or maybe even, ' i cant afford to do that, so I'll buy boots, no one cares anyway'

The dj should stick to the remit of the venue.If they allow boots,cd's, mp3's,then you make your choice to play them or not.If its an OVO venue then its OVO.Integrity lies with the person,and situation in question.

Not only the paying customers need to do their research.The promoters and dj's need to do it too.

We use that site at work every day. Info is at least a year out of date.

I know that the information is out of date at the point the accounts are filed at Companies House, but saying that they are not reliable without qualifying the reason why might suggest that the accounts must be wrong.

Not arguing with you Ian but the documentation in the public domain has to be relied upon because generally other information is not available.

I know that the information is out of date at the point the accounts are filed at Companies House, but saying that they are not reliable without qualifying the reason why might suggest that the accounts must be wrong.

Not arguing with you Ian but the documentation in the public domain has to be relied upon because generally other information is not available.

Don't get me wrong the site still has it's worth or we wouldn't use it every day. Just you'll see someone that supposedly has 500k in the bank, phone them and they've gone tits up..

Anyway, I'm getting a little off topic there, forgive me.

Don't get me wrong the site still has it's worth or we wouldn't use it every day. Just you'll see someone that supposedly has 500k in the bank, phone them and they've gone tits up..

Anyway, I'm getting a little off topic there, forgive me.

Last point from me to avoid off-topicitis.

I'm an Accountant and I deal with this kind of stuff everyday and you are correct - strong balance sheet one day, f**k all the next. Its how it works and how its always worked.

Gawd love us..

It's no wonder the scene is F*cked.

Once upon a time there was a bit of diversity, by which I mean clubs/ dj's/towns had their own sets of tunes

Yes, the were massive tunes played everywhere-but

Blackpool Mecca played different to Wigan played different to Yate played different to Cleethorpes and the smaller clubs in between....

And we wanted to hear them ALL.

I've said before, when a sound was pressed, re-issued or whatever, it was dropped for something new.

What have we got now ??

Well, with a few exceptions

a 1001 nights all playing THE SAME TUNES on 100% Vinyl ( there's a vital word missing there though).

All diluting a thin enough crowd as it is, cos why travel when all you want is on your doorstep ??

I have no problem with folk buying 'em for home use- but you just know that most are being bought as floorfillers for people who think they are top hole DJ's for filling said floor, given the same tools my 2 year old niece could do that ..

But, hey it's OK so long as "they" are having a good time.

Tony

I just wish there was some authority that would turn up to an event or 2000 and stop it in mid flow, because of the using of illegal bootlegs and conning the paying public, charging them £5+ to listen to the sub standard shite, i can only but dream. As in answer to the question above... the reson there is no diversity, is because most of the top dj's play out almost every wk, here there and everywhere, not loyal to any one particular club imho

Here's my problem, whoever is consistently reproducing the latest crop of top tunes on almost exactly the same label please f*ck *ff doing so, put them out on your own label if you want. Nothing worse than getting your records ready to do your spot when you see the DJ putting on a £10 boot which cost you £100's on the exact same label and now you cant get the pleasure of playing it.

I think if you are so angry (and rightly so) then why not name the venue it happened and even who played the bootleg, you've gone as far as making all this public on the forum, yet have just implied this happened ? What record was it (or records). Have you prior knowledge of the event you were booked to play, did you not think to ask the promoter just what kind of night it was, maybe that's what they do, i think integrity comes down to personal choices, i certainly wouldn't just take any booking, just so i could play my records, and i'd prefer i knew a little of the event in question, before i nailed my colours to the mast. Hope your Valencia trip has ticked all the right boxes, who else is playing ?, you don't really want to go getting all worked up again do you.

Brett

Edited July 4, 201212 yr by Brett F

Who are all these mystery bootleggers who seem to be continually flooding ebay and the like with their tainted wares?

They're obviously people connected to the scene, otherwise they wouldn't know what to boot for starters. People on the scene must know who some of these unidentified characters are... It's improbably to think otherwise.

Come on, step forward and shop a bootlegger today...

Edited July 4, 201212 yr by Russell Gilbert

Les McCutcheon? The acceptable face of "Colin Bee Promotions"?

Oh no!

I bought a great collection of Northern off him once, at his office in Fulham,

Think I bought boots off of him as a schoolkid in the mid 70s

Is it the same guy, or just another fella with an identical name?

Edited July 4, 201212 yr by Steve G

If all these re-issues were played at home, then I don't think we would be having this discussion in the first place.

The scene needs promoters who actually know about rare soul, have integrity, and have the bo***cks to refuse to let any Tom, Dick, and Harry with a box of look a like 45's have a spot [i let him cos he brings all his mates].

The one thing missing on the scene is integrity.

I've tried to do that several times with both soul nights and all-niters, but consistently lost money due to poor attendances.

People say they want it but don't support venues that provide it.

Les McCutcheon? The acceptable face of "Colin Bee Promotions"?

Oh no!

Think I bought boots off of him as a schoolkid in the mid 70s

Is it the same guy, or just another fella with an identical name?

Has to be the same chap, the records I had (and he may correct me here) I think were originally Neil Rushtons.

It's all double standards really !!!!!!!

We should shoot the the bootleggers but what about the dealers on here who sell them, why are they not challenged ?

I've tried to do that several times with both soul nights and all-niters, but consistently lost money due to poor attendances.

People say they want it but don't support venues that provide it.

Absolutley spot, on this site is full of ovo only this ovo only that we,ve got ethics bull,yet practicaly all the ovo underplayed nites are dyeing on there arse.The oldies only new breed of djs who carry their entire collection about with em,[because those 2 boxs are their entire collection] are literaly takein over the scene.Theres plenty of members on here from the north west who post regularly on this subject,who never attend any ovo underplayed nites.It also seems that these new young enthusiastic djs who are now regularly poppin up at oldies venues seem to have been exempted from the ovo debate.i see a good few of em on a regular basis and its boots all the way.So if the ovo only crowd really want to change the scene,get off your arses and attend a few venues.Obviously not all oldies venues and djs are boot only,but you get my drift.

Looks nice in green Ady

No Nev it looks pretty crap.:

Modern font, shiny new label and a blob mark on the left hand side.

Yuk!

Edited July 4, 201212 yr by Steve G

just play the original in your set and say something like " there , thats what a proper copy sounds like " ,

The more money muppets spend on bootlegs for their wannabe playbox the less they have to spend on records i want

Les McCutcheon? The acceptable face of "Colin Bee Promotions"?

Oh no!

Think I bought boots off of him as a schoolkid in the mid 70s

Is it the same guy, or just another fella with an identical name?

Wasn't he in Shakatak ? obviously I don't know who Shakatak were , easier said than done

Wasn't he in Shakatak ? obviously I don't know who Shakatak were , easier said than done

He certainly produced them, he had their gold discs everywhere

There are always going to be people that buy bootlegs, so there is always going to be a market for some unscrupulous money spinning leach to start knocking out bootlegs to make a fast buck.

The thing that really pisses me off is the amount of these lookalike labels on e-bay with a very loosely worded description that could lead the unknowing bidder to pay well over the odds for what they consider to be an original issue.

I have messaged many of these dealers asking about the unclear wording of the description and have been met many times with a barrage of abuse and being told to mind my own business.

I only play originals when I DJ and the biggest problem I have come across lately is someone shazaming all the tracks I played and then playing them at another venue from a lap top........WTF

Andy

No Nev it looks pretty crap.:

Modern font, shiny new label and a blob mark on the left hand side.

Yuk!

It was a tongue in cheek comment

the biggest problem I have come across lately is someone shazaming all the tracks I played and then playing them at another venue from a lap top....

Sorry, but "Shazaming"? I've not come across that one before.

What's it mean?

Sorry, but "Shazaming"? I've not come across that one before.

What's it mean?

Its an App that you can get on your phone....You hold up your phone while the track is playing and it tells you what the track is with the option to buy it from i-tunes or alternatively from some dodgy file sharing site for nothing

One thing about this thread has become apparent to me, many people are using the term dj and saying how appalled they are by boots of their originals being played, well in my circle only a minority of tunes if any ! are booted and if they are then they are quickly diminished and forgotten about, but i'm involved in the soul music scene and not a so called 'Northern ' scene....and God knows what that means anymore, each to their own, my scene is healthy and vibrant, and my weekend will be full, Manchester Saturday at Different Strokes and York at the Waterfront on Sunday....i'm quite content with my lot...Ask yourself a question..Are You ?

Here's a genuine thought about all this lot.

All 'scene ethos' blah blah aside, I understand all that, heard a million arguments for and against a million times, but at the end of the day, isn't a thread like this started because a DJ has had his ego bruised because he hasn't had the chance to show off his prize possessions?

I think it is but no way would anyone be big enough or man enough to admit it.

Roger

Roger, I will admit that bitd, I was on one big ego-trip, when out and about DJing.

It was a great feeling when someone you didn't know came up to the decks and saw that it was the real deal.

Specially when it was know as only a few copy record.

But that was another life, lol.

HI.....i would rather listen a set of £10 unknown originals carefully selected to show the djs passion for his music than a set of £10 look alike big tune fakes selected cos everyone else present probably likes them personally............. wheres the money in all this ???...............im wondering how many copies of a boot do you need to sell before you recover the costs involved , starting from deciding which tunes to go for on each side of a disc, getting it produced , marketed, mailed etc ????......£5 a time profit ??......... the rise in this is due to demand and people trying to make a buck however they can, simple really........regards ez

HI.....i would rather listen a set of £10 unknown originals carefully selected to show the djs passion for his music than a set of £10 look alike big tune fakes selected cos everyone else present probably likes them personally............. wheres the money in all this ???...............im wondering how many copies of a boot do you need to sell before you recover the costs involved , starting from deciding which tunes to go for on each side of a disc, getting it produced , marketed, mailed etc ????......£5 a time profit ??......... the rise in this is due to demand and people trying to make a buck however they can, simple really........regards ez

You need to sell a lot less copies of a boot than you do a legit release, that's for sure.

I recently released Gloria Jones version of GWTWIML and paid a fortune for the rights, pressing etc etc only to have some cnut bootleg it before my copies even left the pressing plant. Pisses you right off.

The dj should stick to the remit of the venue.If they allow boots,cd's, mp3's,then you make your choice to play them or not.If its an OVO venue then its OVO.Integrity lies with the person,and situation in question.

Not only the paying customers need to do their research.The promoters and dj's need to do it too.

Sort of changing the subject slightly here..................but someone has already mentioned that you look at what's on offer and you make your choices. Pretty straightforward you would think!!!

If a flyer or a post says OVO, then that's what you expect....................if the same does not state OVO, then in general you know that that particular venue/promoter is not particularly bothered.

I was in a position not too long ago where the guest DJ played CD's. There was a bit of a debate going on...........a few didn't mind................a few were a bit peeeed

off (including myself).

I didn't attend this particular venue because I was a big fan of the guest DJ..................I knew what I was going to get music wise..................but like I say I was a bit peeeed off at the CD issue. I commented at the time, that .had I known about the CD thing, I would not have attended!!

My point is that if promoters can state on a flyer if OVO will be played, in the same vein, why can't a promoter state on a flyer or post on here or whatever form of advertising that CD's will be played on the night!!!! Doing this IMO would then give no chance for complaint.................it does what it says on the tin.............if you have all the info, you can then make your choice!!!

Carol

Edited July 4, 201212 yr by Carol J

edited

Edited July 5, 201212 yr by Brett F

You need to sell a lot less copies of a boot than you do a legit release, that's for sure.

I recently released Gloria Jones version of GWTWIML and paid a fortune for the rights, pressing etc etc only to have some cnut bootleg it before my copies even left the pressing plant. Pisses you right off.

Who did that then Phil? What label? Have you got a scan?

Ady

Well therein lies this whole argument from back to front...why re-issue a tune that has already a legal format release ie in a CD , it's just a re hash of a new tune ( in as much as it was unreleased back then ), the genie is out of the bottle , a world (like ours) that is obsessed with original format, doesn't need it on vinyl, this is my own personal gripe, if it came out first on whatever format then Geez, that's it in my eyes, It has it's own bag...

There is a market for vinyl releases. This genre of music when played out to an audience is primarily played on vinyl. Most do's don't have CD players.

Who did that then Phil? What label? Have you got a scan?

Ady

Yes. I got a copy from a member on here. I'll post it shortly.

I know who did it, but don't have quite enough evidence for the courts ..... Yet.

Well we own some of the publishing which has possibly stronger laws in its favour than the bootlegging so keep me posted.

Here's a listing for the boot from Popsike

https://www.popsike.com/NORTHERN-SOUL-GLORIA-JONES-GONE-WITH-THE-WIND-IS-MY-LOVE/120878343986.html

Makes me larf! Only 100 copies pressed! Fecking instantly rare new release bootlegs now. Whatever next?

Edited July 4, 201212 yr by phild

Maybe, sometimes, that might be true Roger.

But I also know that many of my friends who either do not collect vinyl, or who do not wish to DJ, are very much against the playing of bootlegs, re-issues or CDs at northern soul events too.

They (as I am) are concerned with the principle of the thing.

Plus they (as I do) believe that a collector or DJ who is interested in, and cares sufficiently about, building a collection of good quality genuine records - whether they be cheap or expensive - will generally play a more exciting and innovative set.

Here here,

totaly agree, know loads of friends & people on the scene who keep away from places & venues that are known to play boots ect.... Some so called DJ's can't play certain records for the simple reason they have'nt been booted.

Edited July 4, 201212 yr by Straight Up

Absolutley spot, on this site is full of ovo only this ovo only that we,ve got ethics bull,yet practicaly all the ovo underplayed nites are dyeing on there arse.The oldies only new breed of djs who carry their entire collection about with em,[because those 2 boxs are their entire collection] are literaly takein over the scene.Theres plenty of members on here from the north west who post regularly on this subject,who never attend any ovo underplayed nites.It also seems that these new young enthusiastic djs who are now regularly poppin up at oldies venues seem to have been exempted from the ovo debate.i see a good few of em on a regular basis and its boots all the way.So if the ovo only crowd really want to change the scene,get off your arses and attend a few venues.Obviously not all oldies venues and djs are boot only,but you get my drift.

Seem to remember a thread on here where the clubs stated whether they were OVO or not (100% Vinyl )

Perhaps a few could take a liitle blimp at that.

Happily there's one on Friday not a million miles from me.

ATB

Tony

I have been meaning to post this for a while as it's really getting me down, as a 50 yr old Northern Soul fanatic who has been collecting records for over 35 year I think this must be said.

At 15 years old and having very little money, I too collected bootleg records from wigan to play at the youth clubs etc, these records stuck out a mile that they were boots and to be honest nobody bothered as we all had f*ck all and as long as we could hear the top tunes during the week before heading back to Wigan at the weekend to see and hear the originals. At the time we also had Grapevine and Destiny records which too were repected, excepted and collectible.

As the years have gone by more money found its way into my pockets and originals were the order of the day, and lucky for me still quite easy to get hold of, now my collection is very large and filled with expensive top tunes which I get great pleasure of playing from time to time at soul nights in the North West.

Here's my problem, whoever is consistently reproducing the latest crop of top tunes on almost exactly the same label please f*ck *ff doing so, put them out on your own label if you want. Nothing worse than getting your records ready to do your spot when you see the DJ putting on a £10 boot which cost you £100's on the exact same label and now you cant get the pleasure of playing it.

You know who you are so get on with designing your own label before the TAX MAN has you.

I'm sure I'm not on my own with these thoughts. Together we can put a stop to this and keep Northern Soul the most wanted and expensive music ever.

As I see it the only way to stop this is to out boot the bootlegs as most boots cost about 50p to make then they are sold for £10.00 making a very good profit for the seller

So you need to take their profit away my booting their boots and selling then for cost only say £1.00

As I only buy originals I would only bootleg their boots this would slow down the f*ckers

As I see it the only way to stop this is to out boot the bootlegs as most boots cost about 50p to make then they are sold for £10.00 making a very good profit for the seller

So you need to take their profit away my booting their boots and selling then for cost only say £1.00

As I only buy originals I would only bootleg their boots this would slow then down

Here's a listing for the boot from Popsike

https://www.popsike.c...0878343986.html

Makes me larf! Only 100 copies pressed! Fecking instantly rare new release bootlegs now. Whatever next?

43 quid???

How much were you selling your genuine articles for then?

There is a market for vinyl releases. This genre of music when played out to an audience is primarily played on vinyl. Most do's don't have CD players.

Your right Phil, sorry my comment was confused, and seeing as i do buy previously unreleased vinyl 45's taken off original CD's it indeed was idiotic..LOL...